Supreme Court: Black firefighters can sue over hiring test

[bobbyw24]

By JESSE J. HOLLAND, Associated Press Writer Jesse J. Holland, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 17 mins ago

WASHINGTON – The Supreme Court ruled Monday that a group of African Americans did not wait too long to sue Chicago over a hiring test they challenged as discriminatory, freeing them to collect a lower court judgment.

It is the second time in as many years that the high court has tackled discrimination in testing within the firefighting ranks. In a landmark case last year, the Supreme Court in a 5-4 decision said New Haven, Conn., violated white firefighters' civil rights, throwing out an exam in which no African-Americans scored high enough to be promoted to lieutenant or captain.

In Monday's opinion, Justice Antonin Scalia wrote for the court that the applicants' lawsuit over a city of Chicago test used to weed out potential firefighter trainee applicants was not too late.

"Today, the Supreme Court affirmed that job-seekers should not be denied justice based on a technicality," said John Payton, president of the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, Inc., who argued the case. "This victory goes well beyond the immediate results in Chicago. It should ensure that no other fire department or employer uses a discriminatory test, and LDF will go the extra mile to make sure that they do not."

Anyone who scored 64 or below was deemed not qualified. But the city set a second cutoff score of 89 points.

Officials told applicants who scored below 89 but above 64 that although they passed the test, they likely would not be hired because of the large number of people who scored 89 or above. The majority of those in the top-scoring group were white; only 11 percent were black.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100524/ap_on_bi_ge/us_supreme_court_firefighters_lawsuit

[Theocrat]

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s28/killergluestick/thats_racist.gif

[Depressed Liberator]

Let them sue if they so see it fit. I do not see the problem here.

[stu2002]

The majority of those in the top-scoring group were white; only 11 percent were black.

Obviously Chicago values skin color more than intelligence

[angelatc]

Obviously Chicago values skin color more than intelligence

This type of crap illustrates the exact reasons that conservatives were concerned about certain sections of the Civil Rights Act to begin with.

And to add an insult - So, not only were they too stupid to pass the test, they were too lazy to file on time.

[BlackTerrel]

What kind of test was it? And what kind of intelligence is needed to be a firefighter?

[angelatc]

What kind of test was it? And what kind of intelligence is needed to be a firefighter?

http://www.fire-fighter-exam.com/practice-tests.php

[MelissaWV]

A quick search online yielded:

http://www.fire-fighter-exam.com/firefighter-2-exam.php

1. At 212 degrees F water expands approximately how many times its original volume?

[] 1700
[] 1200
[] 1000
[] 800

It seems to be questions about fire, equipment, acronyms, and procedures.

[Fox McCloud]

so let me get this straight, the test is being thrown out merely because the majority of people who pass it are white and only a handful (11%) of blacks have passed it?

If this is the case, this is moronic as it's not discriminatory at all, racially; if you can't pass the test, you can't pass the test. Also, considering blacks only make up 12.4% of the US population, the 11% figure doesn't seem to be all that big of a deal anyway, even if you are concerned it "discriminates".

[Inflation]

A quick search online yielded:

http://www.fire-fighter-exam.com/firefighter-2-exam.php

1. At 212 degrees F water expands approximately how many times its original volume?

[] 1700
[] 1200
[] 1000
[] 800

It seems to be questions about fire, equipment, acronyms, and procedures.

Well, obviously this question is racist and discriminatory, since blacks can't answer it. :rolleyes:

Where do they get such biased questions? :p

All firemen need to do is look good in their uniform and strut around collecting a fat government check for not much work.

It's time to give 'The People' in 'The Community' their 'Fair Share' of those cushy gub'mint jobs!

Stop using excuses, like "you need to know about fire and stuff to be a fireman" nobody is fooled by such racist Jim Crow state rights Lester Maddox jive talk.

Give us the money, err, I mean, the jobs! Or else.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

I'm floored the goddamn thing is 'multiple guess' instead of 'write in the right fucking answer'.

[angelatc]

so let me get this straight, the test is being thrown out merely because the majority of people who pass it are white and only a handful (11%) of blacks have passed it?



Not exactly. The Fire Department said that you had to score at least a 69% to be considered. They later said that anybody scoring below 85% probably wouldn't get hired because there were a plethora of people who did quite well on the exam. In other words, they didn't need to dredge the bottom of the academic barrel so they weren't going to.

The black people in that second group are mad because they passed the test but still didn't get hired.

[MelissaWV]

so let me get this straight, the test is being thrown out merely because the majority of people who pass it are white and only a handful (11%) of blacks have passed it?

If this is the case, this is moronic as it's not discriminatory at all, racially; if you can't pass the test, you can't pass the test. Also, considering blacks only make up 12.4% of the US population, the 11% figure doesn't seem to be all that big of a deal anyway, even if you are concerned it "discriminates".

Errr, while I agree with your concept, your math could use some help?

Let's say a given class of 100 takes the test. For the purposes of this idiocy, we'll say that 50 are "white" and 17 are "black," with the other 32 being of various backgrounds that aren't relevant to what I'm going to talk about.

Now, this is a little over-representative, but roughly representative, in that you said blacks make up almost 13% of the population, and they make up 17% of this particular class. However, what the article is saying is that of that 17, only 2 "blacks" pass, hence proving the test is racist. That has nothing to do with what proportion of the general population blacks or whites or yellows or browns or plaids are. :)

What's interesting to me is that these tests, when failed in large proportion by a given minority group, are said to be biased. The very failure is used as proof of bias. Why couldn't, say, the KKK decide to use these results (since they are so scientific) as proof that "blacks" are idiots? Ah that's right... because this test and its results are a specific reflection of these particular cadets and their ability (or inability) to process data and pass this test.

Another way of looking at it, but this time from NYC:


The cutoff passing score for Written Examination 7029 was 84.705%. Based on that cutoff score, the pass rate of white candidates for Exam 7029 was 89.9%, while the pass rate of black candidates was 60.3%. In other words, out of 12,915 white test takers, 11,613 received a passing score of at least 84.705, whereas out of 1,749 black test takers, only 1,054 received a passing score. The pass rate of black candidates was, therefore, 67% of the pass rate of white candidates.

Both Dr. Siskin’s and Dr. Wiesen’s standard deviation analysis found that this disparity is equivalent to 33.9 units of standard deviation, meaning that the likelihood it occurred by chance is less than 1 in 4.5 million-billion. The practical effect of this disparity, according to Dr. Siskin, is that 519 black candidates who failed the examination—74.7% of the black applicants who failed—were eliminated from consideration. Dr. Wiesen estimated that 457 black candidates would have passed the examination but for the effect of this disparity. Based on Dr. Siskin’s calculation, 114 additional black firefighters would have been appointed absent the disparity.

The pass rate for Hispanic candidates taking Exam 7029 was 76.7%, compared with a pass rate of 89.9% for white candidates. Accordingly, the pass rate of Hispanic candidates was 85.3% of the pass rate of white candidates. Dr. Siskin’s standard deviation analysis found that this disparity is equivalent to 17.4 units of standard deviation, meaning that the likelihood it occurred by chance is less than 1 in 4.5 million-billion. The practical effect of this deviation, according to Dr. Siskin, is that 282 Hispanic candidates who failed the examination—56.9% of the Hispanic applicants who failed—were eliminated from consideration. Based on Dr. Siskin’s calculation, 62 additional Hispanic firefighters would have been appointed absent the disparity....

Notably, the court declined to apply the "80% Rule". (The 'four-fifths rule' provides that a selection tool that yields a selection rate for any race, sex, or ethnic group which is less than four-fifths (4/5) (or 80%) of the rate for the group with the highest rate will generally be regarded by the EEOC as evidence of adverse impact, while a greater than four-fifths rate will generally not be regarded as evidence of adverse impact). The 80% Rule would have resulted in a finding of no disparate impact on some of the Plaintiffs' challenges, specifically: the pass/fail uses of Exam 2043 with respect to black candidates, and the pass/fail uses of Exam 7029 and 2043 with respect to Hispanic candidates. The court was unpersuaded that it must rely on the 80% Rule to the exclusion of statistical significance testing. Citing case law, the court held that "[c]ontrolling precedent holds that the 80% Rule is not an exclusive means of proof, and that alternative statistical tests should be considered."

City Failed to Show Business Necessity

Assessing the validity of the City's tests under Guardians Association of the New York City Police Department, Inc. v. Civil Service Commission, 630 F.2d 79, 82 (2d Cir. 1980), the court applied the Guardians five-part test:

(1) the test-makers must have conducted a suitable job analysis;
(2) they must have used reasonable competence in constructing the test itself;
(3) the content of the test must be related to the content of the job;
(4) the content of the test must be representative of the content of the job; and
(5) there must be a scoring system that usefully selects from among the applicants those who can better perform the job.

The court considered each seriatim and concluded that the City "has made an inadequate showing that the tests contained appropriate content and were properly constructed pursuant to the EEOC Guidelines and Guardians. . . . [and] has not justified its ranking of thousands of candidates for the job of entry-level firefighter."

In the court's opinion, the City failed to demonstrate a sufficient relationship between the tasks of a firefighter and the abilities it intended to test....

http://www.primafacielaw.com/tags/nyc-firefighter-exam/

[MelissaWV]

Not exactly. The Fire Department said that you had to score at least a 69% to be considered. They later said that anybody scoring below 85% probably wouldn't get hired because there were a plethora of people who did quite well on the exam. In other words, they didn't need to dredge the bottom of the academic barrel so they weren't going to.

The black people in that second group are mad because they passed the test but still didn't get hired.

Indeed. Passing the test "ranks" you on a list. It does not assure you entry, but is part of your overall score in most cases. It's like a beauty contest, where the different sections average in to decide the winner.

[teamrican1]

so let me get this straight, the test is being thrown out merely because the majority of people who pass it are white and only a handful (11%) of blacks have passed it?

If this is the case, this is moronic as it's not discriminatory at all, racially; if you can't pass the test, you can't pass the test. Also, considering blacks only make up 12.4% of the US population, the 11% figure doesn't seem to be all that big of a deal anyway, even if you are concerned it "discriminates".

The test didn't get thrown out. That's why the black people are suing. The ruling the Supreme Court handed down had nothing to do with the merits of the case. It was just a technical question about whether they missed the filing deadline to bring suit or not. And though you are correct about the racial make up of the US as a whole, I'm sure the racial makeup of whatever jurisdiction this lawsuit comes from is overwhelmingly black. But yeah, the basic problem here is the same as affirmative action in higher education. Liberals want outcomes to be based on certain racial percentages but the reality is cognitive and skill differences between the various races make such outcomes unlikely in any fair test. So they rig the system and then pretend try to pretend it isn't rigged, which creates all kinds of racial animosity. It's like Justice Scalia said to the University of Michigan- if you want a racially diverse campus then just lower your entrance standards.

[Fox McCloud]

My mistake--either way, shortly after I posted I thought "wait a minute, what I said was not statistically accurate". I should have known better *chuckles*.

[peacepotpaul]

My mistake--either way, shortly after I posted I thought "wait a minute, what I said was not statistically accurate". I should have known better *chuckles*.

you guys interested in racial discrimination, affirmative action, double standards and cognitive dissonance, should watch the film "A Conversation about Race".

its mostly dialog, so you can treat it as a background soundtrack
(the whole thing is about an hour, go search yourself for the other parts)
YouTube - A Conversation About Race 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN0cFo94XQc)

[nbhadja]

A quick search online yielded:

http://www.fire-fighter-exam.com/firefighter-2-exam.php

1. At 212 degrees F water expands approximately how many times its original volume?

[] 1700
[] 1200
[] 1000
[] 800

It seems to be questions about fire, equipment, acronyms, and procedures.

Giving a fire fighter a test about fire related topics is soooooooo racist!

But seriously this is actually racist against whites. This is like going to the NFL training combine and throwing out the results of the 40 yard dash because none of the top speed runners were white. Do people know how retarded they are?

[Inflation]

Giving a fire fighter a test about fire related topics is soooooooo racist!

But seriously this is actually racist against whites. This is like going to the NFL training combine and throwing out the results of the 40 yard dash because none of the top speed runners were white. Do people know how retarded they are?

Whaah! I want to be an NBA player, but there are too many black people hogging those high paying jobs. It hurt my self-esteem when they laughed me out of try-outs.

*files discrimination law suit, profits*