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RCA
05-11-2010, 12:41 PM
Or is just me. It would make logical sense if that were the case.

tremendoustie
05-11-2010, 12:46 PM
Or is just me. It would make logical sense if that were the case.

My folks were/are conservative -- pro economic liberty, anti personal liberty. Although they're not very politically oriented in general.

torchbearer
05-11-2010, 12:47 PM
the values i learned on the family farm insured that i was libertarian in thought from an early age.

Liberty Rebellion
05-11-2010, 12:51 PM
My parent's have always voted Dem.

Also made me go to a catholic school and during that tenure I went to mass 3 times a week for 8 years.

I'm an atheist and an AnCap

RCA
05-11-2010, 01:10 PM
My parent's have always voted Dem.

Also made me go to a catholic school and during that tenure I went to mass 3 times a week for 8 years.

I'm an atheist and an AnCap

I didn't get religion forced fed to me luckily, but I did get the statist/liberal viewpoint force fed to me.

Imaginos
05-11-2010, 01:33 PM
Or is just me. It would make logical sense if that were the case.
You are not alone my friend.
My folks are the most hard core statist you would ever meet in your entire life.
Also my mother is a hard core evangelical as well and let me tell you, the combination (a statist AND evangelical) is not a laughing matter.

dannno
05-11-2010, 01:35 PM
My parents were pretty statist, though Republican.. My dad was an O'Reilly guy.. i've helped to move them away from that..

aspiringconstitutionalist
05-11-2010, 01:40 PM
I was raised in a neo-conservative/soft-theocrat household. However, after Ron Paul converted me to libertarianism in 2007, I proceeded to convert my mother and sister to libertarians and partially converted my father to libertarianism.

Quinn Rogness
05-11-2010, 01:40 PM
Both of my parents are lifelong Democrats and Obama voters.

Linus
05-11-2010, 01:44 PM
Yes and no.

Chieppa1
05-11-2010, 01:47 PM
My father was Conservative. Now he's more involved then I am. He actually had a couple lunch meetings with Scott Garrett.

DeadheadForPaul
05-11-2010, 01:49 PM
My parents are fiscally conservative and socially liberal independents...
BUT they only care about taxes...meaning they almost always vote GOP across the board - even terrible ones

No1ButPaul08
05-11-2010, 01:56 PM
My dad thinks Keith Olberman is the best thing to ever happen to television.

Elwar
05-11-2010, 02:02 PM
I learned to hate the government at public school.

CoreyBowen999
05-11-2010, 02:08 PM
Came from a conservative family and never figured out how they believed in economic liberty but not personal liberty

Linus
05-11-2010, 02:13 PM
Came from a conservative family and never figured out how they believed in economic liberty but not personal liberty

Give it a few years and romances. If you're really lucky you'll still believe in personal liberty by the time you've settled down with a family. If not then you'll be a straight-up Nazi.

tremendoustie
05-11-2010, 02:15 PM
You are not alone my friend.
My folks are the most hard core statist you would ever meet in your entire life.
Also my mother is a hard core evangelical as well and let me tell you, the combination (a statist AND evangelical) is not a laughing matter.

I'd accept the term evangelical for myself, and that combination is always disturbing to me. I don't know where you stand politically, precisely, or whether you'd defend a principled position against non-aggression, but have you ever asked her why she thinks it's ok to use threats of violence to prohibit/accomplish her beliefs and goals?

I mean, it's a big step from, "I think XYZ is wrong", to "I'm going to send men with guns to kidnap anyone who does XYZ". Or from, "I think XYZ is a good idea", to "I'm going to send men with guns to extort money from my neighbors, to pay for XYZ".

acptulsa
05-11-2010, 02:19 PM
Yes and no.

Let me guess--mom yes, dad no.

Well, attitudes swing pendulums, and we all know how screwed up attitudes have been of late. Your parents have had that attitude, and I've had to live with them and their attitude, so I know.

JCF
05-11-2010, 02:19 PM
Somewhat... Grew up in all kinds of households under all kinds of guardians.

1. One side were the bible loving type who made sure I got to bed, made sure I got food in my belly and took me to church every Sunday... Life wasn't so bad I guess; rules were strict but whatever.

2. The other side I was ignored and left to do whatever I wanted while they went out and partied, my young parents... I did what I did as a kid and got to explore my creative side a lot more.


I grew up around it all which is what made me what I am today. Want to talk Drugs? Prostitution? Welfare? Prison? Immigration? I've seen or experienced it all; and along with my tendency to look at everything from a logical perspective I believe I have a pretty good handle on things.

---

That being said everyone in my family tends to vote democrat, except my uncle. I've been told numerous times in my life how democrats are better because Clinton was "so great"

Vessol
05-11-2010, 02:19 PM
My mother has always been 'politically confused', prone to angry rants about the government but always voted Republican and praised them often. I've been showing her a lot of materials, books, videos, etc and she's definitely come around. She even asked for a 'Ron Paul 2012' bumper sticker and is talking about the Federal Reserve and many other things at work, making some of them question as well.

My father on the other hand is completely apolitical. He's never voted, he's never researched any politician. He views the government as a corrupt entity that is just going to steal and steal more, but he doesn't think he can do anything about it so he figures he might as well try to enjoy life without the headache of caring.

Wineman77
05-11-2010, 02:20 PM
My mom is very non-political, but votes Dem. My dad is a very political, libertarian leaning, paleo-con. He is down with Ron Paul.

JCF
05-11-2010, 02:24 PM
I wish my family cared about politics, anytime I try to bring it up they're too busy watching bullshit on the TV.

I'm young so my friends don't give a fuck and I don't want to ruin the mood by bringing it up... :o

acptulsa
05-11-2010, 02:27 PM
...he figures he might as well try to enjoy life without the headache of caring.

When you get right down to it, that's government's first, best purpose--to take care of certain headaches and promote the 'general welfare' (as in let us be productive in peace). Of course, we all know that when government decides to be the headache, there ain't no aspirin big enough...

heavenlyboy34
05-11-2010, 02:31 PM
I'm the only libertarian in my family (as far as I know). The rest are sheep-like republicans, as far as I know. :(

Todd
05-11-2010, 02:36 PM
I wish my family cared about politics, anytime I try to bring it up they're too busy watching bullshit on the TV.

I'm young so my friends don't give a fuck and I don't want to ruin the mood by bringing it up... :o

That's a description of most people.

Isn't it sad that even broaching the subject about our "reality" when it's not so rosey is considered kill joy.

Andrew-Austin
05-11-2010, 02:42 PM
You know you can call some families "statist" in a non-political sense... Maybe a persons parents don't have any particular political views, they can still be authoritarian in other ways.

silentshout
05-11-2010, 02:47 PM
Somewhat. My father has always been very neocon-ish and a bit of a theocrat, but my mom is an independent and becoming more liberty-minded by the day. :)

LibertarianfromGermany
05-11-2010, 02:47 PM
I'm young so my friends don't give a fuck and I don't want to ruin the mood by bringing it up... :o

No kidding...

silentshout
05-11-2010, 02:48 PM
I wish my family cared about politics, anytime I try to bring it up they're too busy watching bullshit on the TV.

I'm young so my friends don't give a fuck and I don't want to ruin the mood by bringing it up... :o

hehe, I'm not young anymore and I could have described most of my friends this way, too. You aren't alone...seems like most people kinda do not care.

Imaginos
05-11-2010, 02:49 PM
I'd accept the term evangelical for myself, and that combination is always disturbing to me. I don't know where you stand politically, precisely, or whether you'd defend a principled position against non-aggression, but have you ever asked her why she thinks it's ok to use threats of violence to prohibit/accomplish her beliefs and goals?

I mean, it's a big step from, "I think XYZ is wrong", to "I'm going to send men with guns to kidnap anyone who does XYZ". Or from, "I think XYZ is a good idea", to "I'm going to send men with guns to extort money from my neighbors, to pay for XYZ".
Trust me, your question is something that I have been wondering all my life.
I never got a straight answer.
But you know how it goes.
The people who are hard core statist AND evangelical usually do not accept any question regarding the subject.
They yell a lot at you but if you listen to what they say, there is no substantial argument.

marc1888
05-11-2010, 02:49 PM
My family would define themselves as Scottish and Socialist but since i discovered libertarianism i would say most of Scotland is actually libertarian/ left libertarian but actually dont know what it is ;-)

Vessol
05-11-2010, 02:58 PM
hehe, I'm not young anymore and I could have described most of my friends this way, too. You aren't alone...seems like most people kinda do not care.

People will be like this no matter what age they are. Many of my friends poke fun at me and roll their eyes whenever I even mention anything in the news.

KCIndy
05-11-2010, 05:07 PM
I wish my family cared about politics, anytime I try to bring it up they're too busy watching bullshit on the TV.

I'm young so my friends don't give a fuck and I don't want to ruin the mood by bringing it up... :o


Hey, don't let it get you down, JCF! There's nothing wrong with maintaining a "political life" online and being less political with family and friends. It'll probably keep you out of a few arguments. The important thing is to stay informed, so if some red hot issue comes up in real life, you'll be able to educate your friends about it from a Liberty-minded perspective.

Koz
05-11-2010, 05:23 PM
My parents are conservative, although they pretty much pull the Republican ticket when they vote.

Linus
05-11-2010, 06:31 PM
Let me guess--mom yes, dad no.


Close...but a little more complicated.




Well, attitudes swing pendulums, and we all know how screwed up attitudes have been of late. Your parents have had that attitude, and I've had to live with them and their attitude, so I know.

Well, my father passed away some years ago and he was never politically active by any means--a stint in the penitentiary can take the wind out of a young rabble-rouser's sail, if that was ever to be his destiny. He worked for a living thereafter. My mother is still alive and thinks that anyone who registers to vote is a damned fool.

Like I said, it's complicated.

american.swan
05-11-2010, 06:55 PM
I was raised with a DNC mother. She rarely voted for a conservative unless she knew the person and it was for like county judge or something small. Of her five children, three are either libertarian are darn close to it.

BuddyRey
05-11-2010, 07:08 PM
My parents are socially liberal, but also pretty protectionist. They've made a lot of progress though, and do love RP!

Linus
05-11-2010, 07:12 PM
My mom bought me a copy of The Constitution in Exile before I ever even heard of Ron Paul. I was pleased and surprised, and it's still one of my favorite books.

pcosmar
05-11-2010, 07:16 PM
I thought they were created by tyrannical governments.

Natures response,, and all that. ;)

Paulitical Correctness
05-11-2010, 07:17 PM
I think a large majority of people are libertarian, they just don't know it yet.

Years and years of "We NEED government; to regulate, protect us from, and give us _______" BS crammed down their throat isn't easy to undo.

As far as the folks bein' statist...not at all. I never had a curfew, we didn't go to church, I was trusted entirely too much (though, I didn't exploit it), and I was never "taught" to hate any particular group of people.

Linus
05-11-2010, 07:32 PM
Bernie Mac is right. And it all goes hand-in-hand with the planned and deliberate removal of childhood, as a concept, from our culture and society.

That's why you see so much pathological infantilization in our culture. Look at South Park, if you can stand it without vomiting. Better still, just watch one episode and then meditate on how popular a show it is. Everyone in America wants to be an ignorant, careless adolescent. That is the single strongest collective desire in our society: to be a stupid, under-developed, hormone-intoxicated dumbass with no knowledge of or respect for anything.

Now contemplate how such people are just ripe for the plucking by sleazy, vampire politicians. Hence: Statism. Such a mush-brained citizenry will not only stampede right back into slavery and indentured servitude, they'll even pay for the chains.

torchbearer
05-11-2010, 07:34 PM
Bernie Mac is right. And it all goes hand-in-hand with the planned and deliberate removal of childhood, as a concept, from our culture and society.

That's why you see so much pathological infantilization in our culture. Look at South Park, if you can stand it without vomiting. Better still, just watch one episode and then meditate on how popular a show it is. Everyone in America wants to be an ignorant, careless adolescent. That is the single strongest collective desire in our society: to be a stupid, under-developed, hormone-intoxicated dumbass with no knowledge of or respect for anything.

Now contemplate how such people are just ripe for the plucking by sleazy, vampire politicians. Hence: Statism. Such a mush-brained citizenry will not only stampede right back into slavery and indentured servitude, they'll even pay for the chains.

sociologically speaking, childhood is an abstract, man-made idea.

Linus
05-11-2010, 07:35 PM
True, but then again sociology is a giant crock of shit.

torchbearer
05-11-2010, 07:37 PM
True, but then again sociology is a giant crock of shit.

funny how most of the worlds large companies run on a system designed by a sociologist.

torchbearer
05-11-2010, 07:38 PM
also- sociolgist are the ones who have studied the power elite in the US-
C. Wright Mills, Power Elite.

torchbearer
05-11-2010, 07:38 PM
they also study city structure and have scientific proof that planned city designs always fail.

Linus
05-11-2010, 07:39 PM
funny how most of the worlds large companies run on a system designed by a sociologist.

Yes, but not "ha-ha" funny.

It's even funnier how so many of the major corporations in the world--especially the most "successful" --only still exist through the threat of government force.

Otherwise they would have failed long ago. So I guess sociology is good for that.

torchbearer
05-11-2010, 07:40 PM
Yes, but not "ha-ha" funny.

It's even funnier how so many of the major corporations in the world--especially the most "successful" --only still exist through the threat of government force.

Otherwise they would have failed long ago. So I guess sociology is good for that.

can you tell me what that system is called?

Linus
05-11-2010, 07:41 PM
they also study city structure and have scientific proof that planned city designs always fail.

Is that like the scientific proof that if your parents don't have children then you likely won't have children either? ;)

Paulitical Correctness
05-11-2010, 07:41 PM
also- sociolgist are the ones who have studied the power elite in the US-
C. Wright Mills, Power Elite.

Speaking of sociologists, I have yet to read anything by Jacques Ellul but figure he might be an interesting feller'.

Are you (or anyone reading this for that matter) familiar with his writings?

:eek:

Linus
05-11-2010, 07:42 PM
can you tell me what that system is called?

Hmm, I couldn't find that word, "system," anywhere in my post. Could you be more specific? Then I'd be happy to answer your question.

torchbearer
05-11-2010, 07:42 PM
Is that like the scientific proof that if your parents don't have children then you likely won't have children either? ;)

no, its not related.
do you often talk about things you have knowledge of?
it really makes the debate one sided.

one person putting up facts, the other dribbling about shit that isn't even connected.

torchbearer
05-11-2010, 07:43 PM
Speaking of sociologists, I have yet to read anything by Jacques Ellul but figure he might be an interesting feller'.

Are you (or anyone reading this for that matter) familiar with his writings?

:eek:

i never read his writings, but mills went into great detail on how power in this country is shared among a handful. Not just accusations, but proof using scientific method.
the study was done in the 60's, still applies today.
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/images/who_has_the_power/power_elite_diagram.gif

Linus
05-11-2010, 07:43 PM
no, its not related.
do you often talk about things you have knowledge of?
it really makes the debate one sided.

one person putting up facts, the other dribbling about shit that isn't even connected.

Well, with nothing more than your sociology degree you would probably have trouble with anything I wanted to tell you, regardless of how simple and elementary it was. So I'm trying to go slow for ya.

torchbearer
05-11-2010, 07:44 PM
Hmm, I couldn't find that word, "system," anywhere in my post. Could you be more specific? Then I'd be happy to answer your question.

the system that business use to operate. what is it called and who developed it?

torchbearer
05-11-2010, 07:44 PM
Well, with nothing more than your sociology degree you would probably have trouble with anything I wanted to tell you, regardless of how simple and elementary it was. So I'm trying to go slow for ya.

is that all i have? a degree?
are you sure?

Linus
05-11-2010, 07:46 PM
the system that business use to operate. what is it called and who developed it?

You mean the system wherein the federal government props up failed businesses with tax dollars, then forces citizens to patronize those same failed companies? It's called corporate welfare or, if it becomes an institutionalized practice, "fascism."

Linus
05-11-2010, 07:47 PM
is that all i have? a degree?
are you sure?

Well at this point frankly I'd be surprised to hear that much, even in sociology. But no, you sound like a real reputed name in academia so far.

torchbearer
05-11-2010, 07:49 PM
You mean the system wherein the federal government props up failed businesses with tax dollars, then forces citizens to patronize those same failed companies? It's called corporate welfare or, if it becomes an institutionalized practice, "fascism."

no.
the bureaucratic structure created by Max Weber(get back to him in a moment)

http://faculty.babson.edu/krollag/org_site/encyclop/bureaucracy.html


Max Weber was a historian that wrote about the emergence of bureaucracy from more traditional organizational forms (like feudalism) and it's rising pre-eminance in modern society. Scott defines bureaucracy it as "the existence of a specialized administrative staff". According to Weber, beaucracy is a particular type of administrative structure developed through rational-legal authority. Bureaucratic structures evolved from traditional structures with the following changes:

1. Jurisdictional areas are clearly specified, activities are distributed as official duties (unlike traditional form where duties delegated by leader and changed at any time).

2. Organization follows hierarchial principle -- subordinates follow orders or superiors, but have right of appeal (in contrast to more diffuse structure in traditional authority).

3. Intential, abstract rules govern decisions and actions. Rules are stable, exhaustive, and can be learned. Decisions are recorded in permanent files (in traditional forms few explicit rules or written records).

4. Means of production or administration belong to office. Personal property separated from office property.

5. Officials are selected on basis of technical qualifications, appointed not elected, and compensated by salary.

6. Employement by the organization is a career. The official is a full-time employee and looks forward to a life-long career. After a trial period they get tenure of position and are protected from arbitrary dismissal.

Weber said that bureaucracy resolves some of the shortcomings of the traditional system. Described above was his ideal-type construct, a simplified model (not a preferred model) that focuses on the most important features.

Weber's view of bureaucracy was a system of power where leaders exercise control over others -- a system based on discipline.

Weber stressed that the rational-legal form was the most stable of systems for both superiors and subordinates -- it's more reliable and clear, yet allows the subordinate more independence and discretion. Subordinates ideally can challenge the decisions of their leaders by referring to the stated rules -- charisma becomes less important. As a result, bureaucratic systems can handle more complex operations than traditional systems. (all above Scott p. 41-42).



This was created at the beginning of the industrial revolution.


What makes Weber so important is that he was a contemporary of Marx and was very critical of his over-simplified view of humans.

torchbearer
05-11-2010, 07:51 PM
Well at this point frankly I'd be surprised to hear that much, even in sociology. But no, you sound like a real reputed name in academia so far.

Done more research than anyone on this board. Have a better understanding of society than most on this board. Not because i have a piece of paper, but because it is my practice.

Linus
05-11-2010, 07:51 PM
Dude, if you couldn't figure it out from my earlier proclamation ("sociology is a giant crock of shit"), you can take your sociological studies and cram 'em. Cram 'em anywhere, it's okay with me. Cram 'em up a sociologist's ass, that's the best idea I can think of. But please don't offer them to me for reading.

torchbearer
05-11-2010, 07:52 PM
Dude, if you couldn't figure it out from my earlier proclamation ("sociology is a giant crock of shit"), you can take your sociological studies and cram 'em. Cram 'em anywhere, it's okay with me. Cram 'em up a sociologist's ass, that's the best idea I can think of. But please don't offer them to me for reading.

ignorance is bliss, and you are apparently a very blissful person.
wouldn't want to interrupt your ignorance. think of my post as education for others who read this thread.
just skip over post that don't have illustrations.

Linus
05-11-2010, 07:54 PM
Yeah, I'm sure folks are glued to their screens. Later.

torchbearer
05-11-2010, 07:55 PM
Yeah, I'm sure folks are glued to their screens. Later.

I'm sure they are finding this exchange quite comical.
If you ever want to learn, all you have to do is ask. I want even rub it in your face. I promise.
education is that important.

cindy25
05-11-2010, 07:57 PM
Or is just me. It would make logical sense if that were the case.

I would think its more the other way around, with children following parents

georgiaboy
05-11-2010, 07:58 PM
Hey, don't let it get you down, JCF! There's nothing wrong with maintaining a "political life" online and being less political with family and friends. It'll probably keep you out of a few arguments. The important thing is to stay informed, so if some red hot issue comes up in real life, you'll be able to educate your friends about it from a Liberty-minded perspective.

Q!
F!
T!
People usually can only handle this stuff in small doses I've found, 'cause it's so paradigm shifting. Use sparingly, but with great effect. Folks will listen closer and really take you seriously too. You won't become the laughing stock, but the wise one.

Regarding the OP, weird, I've never really registered this, but gee whiz, my parents vote democrat. If you talk to them though, just like if you talk to most people, they're caring individualists. They just don't see the connection between acting as an individual and voting in support of same. Indoctrinated dichotomy for sure.

WaltM
05-11-2010, 09:20 PM
Don't all gay people come from normal, and often religious households?

RichieLibertarian
05-12-2010, 05:05 PM
my dad and mom always voted republican, but dad in particular had neo-conish views....mom (born in colombia) always held libertarian views.......pretty much persuaded them to appreciate the freedom movement, well i can thank RP for that, he did all the work, I just forced them to listen ha

QueenB4Liberty
05-12-2010, 05:07 PM
My parents are Libertarian.

rancher89
05-12-2010, 07:53 PM
OH GAWD

I was raised confused.....my mother insisted we go to church (Prot, Bap and Lutheran over the years not necessarily in that order) my father could have cared less about religion, ever. He would fall asleep at the Easter service, we stopped going altogether by the mid 60's. My Mom wasn't evangelical at all, she just thought it would be good for us to experience the religious world as children, and I ascribe to that policy....did that with my child...when he voiced an opinion that he wanted to go to church, we talked about it and and the hypocrisy of religion. He went for a few months and hasn't looked back.

Growing up, the household was solidly Dem, my Dad was supposed to work on Robert Kennedy's campaign, but that got shot down...sorry, bad me....

Basically, I grew up believing that unions and the collectivist mentality was the end all to be all. I almost joined the communist party.

The Vietnam War changed me in more ways than I really want to go into.

To this day, my father still defends the Dem platform, BUT he claims that he is fiscally conservative and has voted Republican. I find it plausible but confusing......Ron Paul is an idiot to him and a threat with the possible downsizing of the government.

My mother stays out of the conversation completely, I get the feeling that she cancels his vote, sometimes just to cancel it, sometimes because it's what she believes in, it's so hard to tell, she won't talk about it at all. It's because anything against his beliefs is cause for argument.

I call to ask how they are doing and it devolves to a harangue about my "republican" ways and that nutjob RP.....

sigh, like Linus says, yes and no, and maybe?

yokna7
05-12-2010, 08:10 PM
My parents were for the most part apolitical registered democrats. Statist? not in the least.