Ron's "just come home" message -- I am not sure I agree or that it is wise to declare

[rp08rp]

We now have to leave SOME troops

Biden makes a great point here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OhPG7mk8yQ

By saying JUST COME HOME

With no plan or gradual adjustment , I think it sounds irresponsible.

Ron needs to address this IMO

[RonPaulFever]

Care to explain WHY you think it irresponsible?

[DrNoZone]

Some troops for what? To continue our illegal occupation of a foreign land? I STRONGLY disagree with you and anyone else who holds this opinion.

As for a gradual pull out, RP does understand that. He know we can't just pull out in one day. I've heard him say he would be disappointed in anything longer than a 3 month pull out time frame.

[kwohlge]

Leave soldiers over their so we can murder more Iraqi civilians?

[steph3n]

plus Bush says we have masses of police and military trained already, if that is true why can't they police their own nation?

[DjLoTi]

Please, our troops are dying to come home. Ron is their savior.

[rp08rp]

Because just leaving, and pulling EVERYONE out


1-Is a perception "we lost" for al Queda recruitment

2- The AHOLES that caused this mess withstanding,
in a way, America destroyed the stability there by the bullshit war, is it smart to just totally walk away and not lend SOME help?

[constituent]

I think the OP was kidding?

[American]

I think the verbiage needs to be changed for that and "mind our own business" there is other more tactful way to make the same point.

[constituent]

Because just leaving, and pulling EVERYONE out


1-Is a perception "we lost" for al Queda recruitment

2- The AHOLES that caused this mess withstanding,
in a way, America destroyed the stability there by the bullshit war, is it smart to just totally walk away and not lend SOME help?

you mean like when we helped them by bringing democracy to the middle east?

quit chasing windmills.

[pcosmar]

Leaving immediately is the only responsible way to protect our GIs.
Iraq has to deal with their own problems.
They can kill each other or get along. If our troops are NOT there they can NOT be targeted.
What is hard to understand?

[ConstitutionGal]

Leave soldiers over their so we can murder more Iraqi civilians?
Or get our guys murdered by road-side bombs.....

[maiki]

The thing is, by the time a new president can do anything about their platform one way or the other, it will be... January 2009? At the earliest. So we need to be thinking how prepared Iraqi's will be 1.5 years from now. And other candidates are thinking of a timetable by then? There should be a timetable NOW, so that by 2009 the troops can just come home.

[rp08rp]

you mean like when we helped them by bringing democracy to the middle east?

quit chasing windmills.

LOOK, I want Ron to win badly, but
just marching out without providing a transition package for the shit storm this ADMIN created might not be wise.

AFTER ALL, this is for the hearts and minds of ARABS whether you agree or not
while the BUSH ADMIN has destroyed our reputation

[constituent]

Or get our guys murdered by road-side bombs.....

not "our" guys, they belong to and are solely responsible for themselves and their actions.

[DjLoTi]

They are dying in the desert. Think about it. They don't see home for many months, living in the desert, dealing with and living in hell, all because of a lying administration.

[constituent]

LOOK, I want Ron to win badly, but
just marching out without providing a transition package for the shit storm this ADMIN created might not be wise.

AFTER ALL, this is for the hearts and minds of ARABS whether you agree or not
while the BUSH ADMIN has destroyed our reputation

let "the arabs" have their own hearts and their own minds... trust me, they're more than capable.

and so for "our reputation" you suggest leaving armed soldiers in the middle of their country?
how do you know there will be a "shit storm"??? may i gaze into your crystal ball?

[EvilEngineer]

The truth of the matter is that the Iraqis WANT us out of there. They cannot go about their daily lives and rebuilding Iraq EXPLICITLY because of our constant police presence on their streets. Our Military and Contractors are mobile hot spots for disaster, be it IEDs or Small arms fire. Remove the troops and the hot spots disappear, because the targets for the terrorists disappear, and so does the collateral damage.

But don't trust what I say... listen to the Iraqis them selves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzIPSGhooP4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lSmX7dFwZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVVYqX4e0DM

Oddly this comes from a no-name candidate on the Dem side. Anyone heard of him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lNBwENvTW4

[OptionsTrader]

How about asking this man what he thinks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXA7rRjInk0

And also ask the people of Iraq what they want for a change. It is their country after all.

edit, and precisely what EvilEngineer just typed as I did...

[BLS]

We now have to leave SOME troops

Biden makes a great point here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OhPG7mk8yQ

By saying JUST COME HOME

With no plan or gradual adjustment , I think it sounds irresponsible.

Ron needs to address this IMO

What part of "just come home" isn't sinking in?

[rp08rp]

The truth of the matter is that the Iraqis WANT us out of there. They cannot go about their daily lives and rebuilding Iraq EXPLICITLY because of our constant police presence on their streets. Our Military and Contractors are mobile hot spots for disaster, be it IEDs or Small arms fire. Remove the troops and the hot spots disappear, because the targets for the terrorists disappear, and so does the collateral damage.

But don't trust what I say... listen to the Iraqis them selves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzIPSGhooP4

FINE,

Lets get out,

but theres gotta be a PLAN

A transition!!!

IM SAYING IT COMES ACROSS AS IRRESPONSIBLE to VOTERS.

[USPatriot36]

Why do we think WE should decide what form of government the Iraqi people should adopt? The news accounts I have seen indicate that advocacy for such a Federalistic form of government is not looked favorably upon within the Iraqi parliament nor its people.

[constituent]

FINE,

Lets get out,

but theres gotta be a PLAN

A transition!!!

IM SAYING IT COMES ACROSS AS IRRESPONSIBLE to VOTERS.

naaah. i think you come off as irresponsible to voters.

[fletcher]

LOOK, I want Ron to win badly, but
just marching out without providing a transition package for the shit storm this ADMIN created might not be wise.

AFTER ALL, this is for the hearts and minds of ARABS whether you agree or not
while the BUSH ADMIN has destroyed our reputation

The Arabs want us out now. If you care what they want then we should leave immediately.

[kylejack]

We now have to leave SOME troops

Biden makes a great point here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OhPG7mk8yQ

By saying JUST COME HOME

With no plan or gradual adjustment , I think it sounds irresponsible.

Ron needs to address this IMO
How much blood do we owe the Iraqis? Why should our boys pay the price for neo-conservative foolishness? How much do we have to pay to save face?

[kwohlge]

We just marched out of Vietnam and that turned out all right - though they'd probably be better off if we never bothered them, much like Iraq

[DrNoZone]

FINE,

Lets get out,

but theres gotta be a PLAN

A transition!!!

IM SAYING IT COMES ACROSS AS IRRESPONSIBLE to VOTERS.

See my original post in this thread. I have heard RP say he would expect a 3 month pull out time frame. That IS a transition.

[pcosmar]

but theres gotta be a PLAN

What other PLAN do you want to force on them against their will?

[constituent]

We just marched out of Vietnam and that turned out all right - though they'd probably be better off if we never bothered them, much like Iraq

remind your french brethren.

[rp08rp]

fINE, disagree with me

BUT THE MORE PEOPLE - VOTERS that is,

I talk to, the more they are very very uneasy about Ron b/c we will just come home

AFTER YEARS of:

Terror on TV
The fact that OIL is over there and sadly thats what the war is for

THERE WAS NO STRATEGIC OIL IN VIETNAM

Seriously, there needs to be some middle ground here, its very important to address the reality of it being about oil, and that LEAVING the scene without a PLAN or
TRANSITION is not prudent for a guy running to be President IMO

[Daveforliberty]

The thing is, by the time a new president can do anything about their platform one way or the other, it will be... January 2009? At the earliest. So we need to be thinking how prepared Iraqi's will be 1.5 years from now. And other candidates are thinking of a timetable by then? There should be a timetable NOW, so that by 2009 the troops can just come home.

Correct. Ron Paul's argument is pure and correct but rhetorical. Just come home. It ain't gonna happen as long as Bush is in office. So start whatever the hell political plans you want NOW, and when Ron takes office on January 20, 2009, we can just come home.

[tmg19103]

When we pull out, there will be choas, bloodshed and a civil war (which is already going on anyway). Leaving 20 or 30,000 troops will not prevent that, and they will be in even more danger because they don't have as many troops to support them.

This war as is is bankrupting our country and costing American lives. A new President Paul should have no obligation to fix the mess Bush and his chronies caused. A Presisent Paul's obligation would be for the welfare of American life and property - not that of Iraq. Leaving some troops behind goes to the whole wrong argument that we should be policing the world. I certainly don't buy Huckabee's line that "we broke it so we bought it" - meaning we need to fix it.

We should leave completely and Bush should be put on trial for tricking and deceiving the American public into an illegal and unconstituional war. That is how justice would be best served, but unfortunately Bush has immunity from these types of screw-ups, and that's an immunity that I certainly agree with Judge Napolitano should be removed. The government screws up and they are immune from civil litigation. You, I or a business screws up, and we pay. The government should be held to the same responsibilty as the people, and Bush and his chronies should have their asses sued, with the monies going to damaged Iraqi families.

[constituent]

I think you're (rp08rp) very very wrong, and sadly you've been misdirected.


their oil, their business. welcome to the free market.

[constituent]

When we pull out, there will be choas, bloodshed and a civil war.

I thought that was happening already?

[mavtek]

Don't drink the Kool Aid. We don't need worry about Biden, worry about the GOP.

[rp08rp]

I think you're very very wrong, sadly misguided. their oil, their business.

Sadly, you are right

but our BUSINESS relies on OIL

please guys, understand that this isnt prudent,

hell, go to the G7 and coordinate a mulyinational force for transition, who knows, but

just leaving IN FULL WITHOUT SOME PLAN,
in a destabilized place that is BONE MARROW for our Economic blood isnt wise IMO

[thehittgirl]

I look at these online polls and so many people dislike the war but yet still are fed the propaganda they get fed by the MSM and give in to whatever they hear.

Personally, I feel Ron NEEDS to play the antiwar card. It sets him apart from most everyone else.

[kwohlge]

Just like Vietnam, this whole situation is paternalistic - we believe we're better than the country ( and their people) we're imposing our will onto.

No one restored democracy to the U.S. when we had a Civil War - it worked itself out. Likewise, they (Vietnam, Iraq, etc) should work their own internal struggles out unless something ridiculous (read: genocide) is going on.

There are wars constantly going on, why are we 1) creating more 2) picking sides where we were, in general, neutral before hand?

[kylejack]

The price we're paying in deficits and real human American blood is far higher than any oil benefit we're deriving. Drill ANWR and continue to purchase from Canada and elsewhere.

[tmg19103]

I thought that was happening already?

While you were typing this i was editing my post to indicate this hypocrisy.

[Daveforliberty]

Who says with Ron Paul in office there wouldn't be a plan? Have you ever known him to do anything without thinking things through?

Just come home is about our military and our money. It is separate from political and diplomatic solutions, of which which Ron Paul is a champion.

[constituent]

^G7, global government? what are you talking about?


the BONE MARROW for our Economic blood

That is disgusting. Your economy is worth untold millions of lives? Your desire
for maintaining a certain level of comfort trumps their right to life?

Please, explain to me what this has to do w/ Ron Paul's message?

At this point it sounds like you are urging RP to change his position.

[rp08rp]

I look at these online polls and so many people dislike the war but yet still are fed the propaganda they get fed by the MSM and give in to whatever they hear.

Personally, I feel Ron NEEDS to play the antiwar card. It sets him apart from most everyone else.

Sure but lets be responsible here and face the facts

WITH SADDAM there was STABILITY, and these clowns busted that open

as Greenspan said its about OIL.

So even though the civil libertarian in you says to fix it just leave, the problem is the intervention destroyed stability in a region where we rely HEAVILY on OIL
so, it will need a STRATEGY when leaving.

Thats the sad reality IMO

[DjLoTi]

this thread is over with.

[constituent]

but our BUSINESS relies on OIL



not our business. individual's businesses, mega corporations, etc. but not our businesses. most people have no ownership in this economy. don't forget that. maybe cutting off the spout would be a good thing?

[DrNoZone]

So, for the third time, since my other two posts seem to have gotten drowned out in the mass of posts (and I'll yell this time):

I HAVE PERSONALLY HEARD RP SAY THAT HE EXPECTS A PULL OUT TIME FRAME OF 3 MONTHS.


There, is that clear? What part of that says "he has no plan"?

[kylejack]

Sure but lets be responsible here and face the facts

WITH SADDAM there was STABILITY, and these clowns busted that open

as Greenspan said its about OIL.

So even though the civil libertarian in you says to fix it just leave, the problem is the intervention destroyed stability in a region where we rely HEAVILY on OIL
so, it will need a STRATEGY when leaving.

Thats the sad reality IMO

Most of the Iraqis want us gone. We do not have a moral right to impose our will, even if we REALLY NEED THAT OIL.

[Original_Intent]

I think people need to realize that it is not going to be all candy and flowers if, I mean when, Ron gets elected.

There are going to be bad things happen when we leave Iraq.

We have been living on a "national credit card" for decades. If Ron Paul gets elected, he will essentialy cut up the credit card. We are going to all have to learn to live within our means, and there is going to be pain associated with that, but nevertheless it is the RIGHT THING TO DO.

When Ron Paul gets elected TPTB are going to be manipulating everything they can to make the situation worse. They are going to want Ron Paul to be the most hated man in America, they are going to try to get racial tensions, financial tensions, and any other type of unrest stirred up that they can. That is not conspiracy theory that is history.

[rp08rp]

^G7, global government? what are you talking about?



That is disgusting. Your economy is worth untold millions of lives? Your desire
for maintaining a certain level of comfort trumps their right to life?

Please, explain to me what this has to do w/ Ron Paul's message?

At this point it sounds like you are urging RP to change his position.



I dont think you see how dangerous our reliance on oil is, and the supply/demand tightness of the market.

I'm totally for HYBRIDS or technology, and I was against the war from the beginning.

[tmg19103]

Sure but lets be responsible here and face the facts

WITH SADDAM there was STABILITY, and these clowns busted that open

as Greenspan said its about OIL.

So even though the civil libertarian in you says to fix it just leave, the problem is the intervention destroyed stability in a region where we rely HEAVILY on OIL
so, it will need a STRATEGY when leaving.

Thats the sad reality IMO

We are not getting any oil out of Iraq as is right now, so what will change? We get all our oil from the southern countries and they are stable.

[DjLoTi]

Shut The **** Up Unless You Know Wtf They Go Through

[dspectre]

Did you know that the Iraqi congress voted us to leave the region? They said the best thing we could do is leave. Of course the old media doesn't report this.

[constituent]

I dont think you see how dangerous our reliance on oil is, and the supply/demand tightness of the market.

I'm totally for HYBRIDS or technology, and I was against the war from the beginning.

no friend, I don't think you see how dangerous our reliance on oil is. sorry to disagree.

[alexlcameron]

Prehaps if we do away with the EPA we could drill Alaska and off the gulf and not depend on other countries for oil.
As for Iraq, prehaps we should think along the lines of a Marshall Plan. I admit I was initially for the war (voted for Bush 2 times) however we either need to stop being politically correct and do the job (untie our troops hands) or we need to leave. You cannot have it both ways. IMHO

[constituent]

dj, is that an S-word, a D-word, or an F-word?

i'm confused.

[goldstandard]

Ron wasn't given enough time in the debates to elaborate on the 'Just come home'. So it is open to interpretation.
Given enough time I don't think that it is irresponsible or sounds like this. The simple answer is: What is the alternative?

[rp08rp]

Shut The **** Up Unless You Know Wtf They Go Through

My brother lost his arm

[Daveforliberty]

If Ron Paul gets elected, he will essentialy cut up the credit card.

I love it!

[steph3n]

We have loads of oil under Colorado as well.

[DjLoTi]

We're all unique ok but don't try to act like you know the answers to everything, you've got better ideas get up and run for congress

[DrNoZone]

Ugh! Seriously, all of these arguments are moot. Ron Paul DOES have a plan, he doesn't plan to pull them out in one day! See my 3 previous posts in this thread.

[rp08rp]

Ron wasn't given enough time in the debates to elaborate on the 'Just come home'. So it is open to interpretation.
Given enough time I don't think that it is irresponsible or sounds like this. The simple answer is: What is the alternative?

Alternative

We LEAVE Iraq

as we do ___INSERT PLAN HERE__

Regarding the OIL there __INSERT TALKING ABOUT ELEPHANT IN ROOM__

[DjLoTi]

give the oil to them. we don't need any ****** oil

[steph3n]

settle down, let the blood pressure go down :)


give the oil to them. we don't need any ****** oil

[rp08rp]

give the oil to them. we don't need any ****** oil

I wish it were true

Look at BRAZIL

ENERGY INDEPENDENT

[american.swan]

LOOK, I want Ron to win badly, but
just marching out without providing a transition package for the shit storm this ADMIN created might not be wise.

AFTER ALL, this is for the hearts and minds of ARABS whether you agree or not
while the BUSH ADMIN has destroyed our reputation

Ok...Ron can bring all the troops he is responsible for home...all of them...and bush and the neocon's can pool their money and keep Blackwater in Iraq for what their responsible for. I never voted for Bush and glad I never did, I am not responsible for ANYTHING going on in Iraq and neither is Dr. Paul. If you have such a conviction, then go to Iraq yourself and help. Don't expect other's children to take part.

[constituent]

Alternative

We LEAVE Iraq

as we apologize sincerely and try the power usurpers for
treason and war crimes.

Regarding the OIL there we set up non-profit entities run by locals
to begin pumping or not pumping as they choose and selling or not selling
at the price their communities see fit, distributing the proceeds (or lack of proceeds)
as the community sees fit.

sea changes.

[steph3n]

no we really have the oil for the next 5-10 years which is plenty time to develop news renewable means.

however, it is a myth that much of our oil is from the mid east, more is from SOUTH america.


I wish it were true

Look at BRAZIL

ENERGY INDEPENDENT

[RevolutionSD]

We now have to leave SOME troops

Biden makes a great point here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OhPG7mk8yQ

By saying JUST COME HOME

With no plan or gradual adjustment , I think it sounds irresponsible.

Ron needs to address this IMO

You've gotta be kidding?

Wasn't it "irresponsible" to just march in there?
How many more deaths are acceptable to you as we "gradually adjust"?

I'm shocked that any Ron Paul supporter would have this opinion! The reason Edwards and the "leading" democrats won't talk about a total pullout of Iraq is that that WILL NOT HAPPEN on their watch, the plan is for the U.S. to ALWAYS have a presence in Iraq, and those dems are following the plan.

JUST COME HOME!

[DjLoTi]

They don't use oil, they primarily use ethanol, however their sugar canes are over 75% efficient whereas our corn is only about 15%

[rp08rp]

You've gotta be kidding?

Wasn't it "irresponsible" to just march in there?
How many more deaths are acceptable to you as we "gradually adjust"?

I'm shocked that any Ron Paul supporter would have this opinion! The reason Edwards and the "leading" democrats won't talk about a total pullout of Iraq is that that WILL NOT HAPPEN on their watch, the plan is for the U.S. to ALWAYS have a presence in Iraq, and those dems are following the plan.

JUST COME HOME!


YES IT WAS A MAJOR FUCK UP to GO IN,
That doesnt mean its easy to JUST LEAVE b/c of their GARGANTUAN MISTAKE and go in the total OPPOSITE DIRECTION.

LIKE I SAID:

BRING EM HOME
HAVE A PLAN FOR TRANSITION w THEIR GOV'T, GET TOUGH, MAKE INTERNATIONAL GUIDELINES, BRING IN COUNTRIES, SIGN AGREEMENTS.
ADDRESS THE OIL SECURITY.

I was against the DAMN war to begin with.

[literatim]

We would already be using liquefied coal if it wasn't for the oil companies being propped up by federal subsidies.

[Bob Cochran]

Leaving immediately is the only responsible way to protect our GIs.

I completely agree.

Since there is no organized army fighting them, they can safely mass at transport points and ship out in an organized, crisp fashion. It will take weeks if not months, but it can certainly be done safely.

Let's not shed one more drop of precious American blood spend one more red (almost worthless) cent on this foolish, horrible "war".

I care a lot more about the safety of our finest young people than I do about "saving face" or whatever.

Some day, there may come a time where America really does NEED to fight to defend herself. While I am staunchly anti-war (every sane person is), this does not mean I don't believe there are times when fighting is necessary.

When it really IS time to fight, you fight viciously, ruthlessly, with all the rage and might at your disposal, and WIN.

We must not wage conflicts just to keep our military industrial complex fat, dumb and happy.
.
.
.

[pcosmar]

Regarding the OIL there __INSERT TALKING ABOUT ELEPHANT IN ROOM__

We BUY it from them.
Once we are out of the way the supply will increase. With an increased supply on the open market the price will come down.
They make money, we get oil.
The high price is directly related to our occupation, and the controlled supply.

[steph3n]

but they wish us to?

why impose (y)our will on them?

YES IT WAS A MAJOR FUCK UP to GO IN,
That doesnt mean its easy to JUST LEAVE b/c of their GARGANTUAN MISTAKE and go in the total OPPOSITE DIRECTION.

LIKE I SAID:

BRING EM HOME
HAVE A PLAN FOR TRANSITION w THEIR GOV'T, GET TOUGH, MAKE INTERNATIONAL GUIDELINES, BRING IN COUNTRIES, SIGN AGREEMENTS.
ADDRESS THE OIL SECURITY.

I was against the DAMN war to begin with.

[rp08rp]

I completely agree.

Since there is no organized army fighting them, they can safely mass at transport points and ship out in an organized, crisp fashion. It will take weeks if not months, but it can certainly be done safely.

Let's not shed one more drop of precious American blood spend one more red (almost worthless) cent on this foolish, horrible "war".

I care a lot more about the safety of our finest young people than I do about "saving face" or whatever.

TOTALLY AGREE

but the truth is, the war was about OIL.
No one wants to admit it,
Thank Greenspan for saying it,
and the NEOCONS put us in a very dangerous position

[kylejack]

TOTALLY AGREE

but the truth is, the war was about OIL.
No one wants to admit it,
Thank Greenspan for saying it,
and the NEOCONS put us in a very dangerous position

Doesn't matter, they want us gone and its their country. We don't have the right to keep them subjugated for our own oil interests. Us leaving will tame the nationalist freedom-fighters, and the country will fall into order. Then we can purchase oil from them rather than the current nightmare.

But just to stress my main point: Its their country, and we don't have the moral right to occupy them when they don't want to be occupied.

[EvilEngineer]

As far as Oil Prices go... does it really have any where to go but down from over $80 a barrel? The sad thing is that the commodity market is salivating over the fact that they can actually get away with charging this amount. If you understand the market you realize that they want to sell it for more, not less. But as far as what will happen after our pull out... history shows that we will see a sudden drop in price, which will be good for us.

http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/oilprice1947.gif


As for the pull out plan, as it has been stated in this thread numerous times.
1. It will be over the course of a few months... not YEARS as outlined by the democrats.
2. We will immediately stop patrolling the streets. The reaction during this period will give us a great indication on if pulling out totally is correct.
3. We will begin removing our troops from Iraq, and from Around the world. I imagine this will stress out the logistics chain a bit, and might cause a few delays. We are talking about a few hundred thousand people coming back from over 100+ countries around the world. And shutting down hundreds of bases which have our equipment in them.
4. As far as heavy equipment goes, we need to address the logistic problem of what to do with all of the weaponry we cannot move. Because the price to move EVERYTHING home is in the order of billions of dollars more. Some will have to be sold off, and our more dangerous equipment will have to be destroyed before we leave. We need to prevent arms dealers from scooping all of our surplus up and distributing it across the globe. If you need an example, rent the movie Lord of War.
5. Once out troops are home, we immediately call the military into use on our borders. Though in a Paul Presidency, we will already see a massive drop in the border crime as the drug cartels will no longer have to operate illegally to smuggle under our borders. The biggest problem will be gun runners, human slaves, illegals.

[literatim]

TOTALLY AGREE

but the truth is, the war was about OIL.
No one wants to admit it,
Thank Greenspan for saying it,
and the NEOCONS put us in a very dangerous position

Oil was certainly apart of it, but it wasn't oil for us. We haven't gotten a drop of the oil from Iraq. The oil pipelines are going straight into Israel.

[rp08rp]

As far as Oil Prices go... does it really have any where to go but down from over $80 a barrel? The sad thing is that the commodity market is salivating over the fact that they can actually get away with charging this amount. If you understand the market you realize that they want to sell it for more, not less. But as far as what will happen after our pull out... history shows that we will see a sudden drop in price, which will be good for us.

http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/oilprice1947.gif


As for the pull out plan, as it has been stated in this thread numerous times.
1. It will be over the course of a few months... not YEARS as outlined by the democrats.
2. We will immediately stop patrolling the streets. The reaction during this period will give us a great indication on if pulling out totally is correct.
3. We will begin removing our troops from Iraq, and from Around the world. I imagine this will stress out the logistics chain a bit, and might cause a few delays. We are talking about a few hundred thousand people coming back from over 100+ countries around the world. And shutting down hundreds of bases which have our equipment in them.
4. As far as heavy equipment goes, we need to address the logistic problem of what to do with all of the weaponry we cannot move. Because the price to move EVERYTHING home is in the order of billions of dollars more. Some will have to be sold off, and our more dangerous equipment will have to be destroyed before we leave. We need to prevent arms dealers from scooping all of our surplus up and distributing it across the globe. If you need an example, rent the movie Lord of War.
5. Once out troops are home, we immediately call the military into use on our borders. Though in a Paul Presidency, we will already see a massive drop in the border crime as the drug cartels will no longer have to operate illegally to smuggle under our borders. The biggest problem will be gun runners, human slaves, illegals.





THIS IS THE TYPE OF STUFF RON NEEDS TO SAY!

[pcosmar]

but the truth is, the war was about OIL.

Of course it was. And now we have driven the price up. $20 a barrel to $70 a barrel. The oil companies are posting record profits (I have nothing against fair profit).
This has NOTHING to do with National Security.

[kylejack]

THIS IS THE TYPE OF STUFF RON NEEDS TO SAY!

I think you're just not listening. He said it will take months to withdraw. He said that we could stop patrolling the streets immediately ("That's a policeman's job!").

[rp08rp]

I think you're just not listening. He said it will take months to withdraw. He said that we could stop patrolling the streets immediately ("That's a policeman's job!").


YES but all WE HEAR is

"JUST COME HOME", thats it!

I'M RAISING THE POINT b/c VOTERS NEED MORE GUYS/GALS

Trust me, its a huge barrier for some people to be converted

[goldstandard]

YES IT WAS A MAJOR FUCK UP to GO IN,
That doesnt mean its easy to JUST LEAVE b/c of their GARGANTUAN MISTAKE and go in the total OPPOSITE DIRECTION.

LIKE I SAID:

BRING EM HOME
HAVE A PLAN FOR TRANSITION w THEIR GOV'T, GET TOUGH, MAKE INTERNATIONAL GUIDELINES, BRING IN COUNTRIES, SIGN AGREEMENTS.
ADDRESS THE OIL SECURITY.

I was against the DAMN war to begin with.

It is propaganda that the US government has to entangle itself with this. To leave is the best option. They are not smart enough to come to solutions now so they won't be smart enough to find a solution that fits everybody then.
There is the same preposterous assumption that the US or other countries can manage their country better again.

[kylejack]

Watch some more Youtube. I hear more than you hear.

[DjLoTi]

Ron Paul can't to the research that 300 million Americans need to do for themselves.

[scbissler]

The Iraqis, the Iranians, Hugo Chavez will sell us oil. That's how they make their money!! Oil was a major factor in this war, but not for us, for the oil companies.

[Leslie Webb]

Ron Paul said, "Just come home", but he also has said that our staying in Iraq just makes the situation worse. Polls of Iraqis have shown that they don't want us there. It's their country, not George Bush's.

We pulled out of Viet Nam and now happily trade with them. The same will occur with Iraq.

[rp08rp]

Ron Paul can't to the research that 300 million Americans need to do for themselves.

but its about SELLING a campaign now,
there is another layer of people who dont get it, and they buy the FEAR and PATRIOTISM.

You must make the case and sell with bullet points, however brief they are.

This will be key to Ron breaking through another level.

SELL the troop pull out with a bit more, thats all.

[DjLoTi]

rp08rp I think you've been trying to sell a 90+ reply thread and I don't care what you say, I'm not buying it. Buried!

sorry but it's not up to the campaign to 'sell' a campaign, because we're not 'buying' anything, we're 'fighting' for things. Money is moot

We're fighting for Ron Paul. We're fighting in Iraq. And to make things worse, we're fighting our own citizens! ********** guess what that word is, it's CAPITALISM

[rp08rp]

rp08rp I think you've been trying to sell a 90+ reply thread and I don't care what you say, I'm not buying it. Buried!

sorry but it's not up to the campaign to 'sell' a campaign, because we're not 'buying' anything, we're 'fighting' for things. Money is moot

You'll see as you talk to more uneducated voters what I mean,

I AM TRYING to have debate on this, thats all.

If we are all agreeing with each other, and dont debate strategy more, where does that get us.
I want Ron in there, and I want to head off objections in the future that herewith are going to be very pronounced in the soundbyte the Media keeps using
"JUST COME HOME"

You just watch how the other candidates use that to their advantage, it will happen more and soon.

[Ron Paul Fan]

Just come home. We just marched in so we can just come home. Of course there will be a transition period. Dr. Paul said you can't do it in 24 hours! I can't believe someone is trying to argue that oil is more important than human lives, Iraqi and American. Our presence over there incited hatred! Haven't you been paying attention to what this campaign's foreign policy is based on? They don't want us there! Oil? You want to stay there for oil? I guess it's ok to start wars and keep them going for oil! You make me sick rp08rp! We'll still get our precious oil from Iraq or otherplaces. The freemarket is a wonderful thing. Oil! Unbelievable.

[rp08rp]

Just come home. We just marched in so we can just come home. Of course there will be a transition period. Dr. Paul said you can't do it in 24 hours! I can't believe someone is trying to argue that oil is more important than human lives, Iraqui and American. Our presence over there incited hatred! Haven't you been paying attention to what this campaign's foreign policy is based on? They don't want us there! Oil? You want to stay there for oil? I guess it's ok to start wars and keep them going for oil! You make me sick rp08rp! We'll still get our precious oil from Iraq or otherplaces. The freemarket is a wonderful thing. Oil! Unbelievable.

NEWSALERT: The entire darn M.E. WARS are about OIL,
My brother lost his arm, Im the lat person to want this be the case, but
having a transition, plan, leaving internationality troops, agreements, etc

DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN
more troops will die.

[kylejack]

NEWSALERT: The entire darn M.E. WARS are about OIL,
My brother lost his arm, Im the lat person to want this be the case, but
having a transition, plan, leaving internationality troops, agreements, etc

DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN
more troops will die.

If we stay in Iraq, more troops will die.

[rp08rp]

If we stay in Iraq, more troops will die.

LETS Leave

But lets make a plan of
TRANSITION somehow. Thats all!

Ron needs a plan.
He also says

"WE NEED TO GET ON GOLD"
but lets see an economic PLAN on how to do it

Time to get serious and assume the role,

[kylejack]

LETS Leave

But lets make a plan of
TRANSITION somehow. Thats all!

Ron needs a plan.
He also says

"WE NEED TO GET ON GOLD"
but lets see an economic PLAN on how to do it

Time to get serious and assume the role,

Again, you have not watched enough videos. Ron wants to legalize alternative currencies, not put us back on the gold standard.

[rp08rp]

Again, you have not watched enough videos. Ron wants to legalize alternative currencies, not put us back on the gold standard.

But theres the problem man,

NOT EVERYONE can "watch videos"

[Ron Paul Fan]

What does a transition plan entail? The war is costing us billions a day, American lives are being lost, THEY DONT WANT US THERE. So why do you want to keep troops there? If it was a mistake to go, then it's a mistake to stay. Also, Mike Huckabee just called and he thinks you'd be a good recruit for his foreign policy.

[rp08rp]

What does a transition plan entail? The war is costing us billions a day, American lives are being lost, THEY DONT WANT US THERE. So why do you want to keep troops there? If it was a mistake to go, then it's a mistake to stay. Also, Mike Huckabee just called and he thinks you'd be a good recruit for his foreign policy.

See, we are getting caught in the elastic theory of snapping back totally the other way.

A transition could entail so many things that dont mean more troop policing, troop deaths, but Huckabee made a good point and I dont care if its wrong to agree, "we broke it", not us, but the schmoes who did, and the way to honorably move ahead is to take that understanding, mix in Ron's strong urge to bring the troops home, with a plan that appeals to our conscience after all the bloodshed,

because THAT is what the other candidates will use to get voters.

[pcosmar]

We need to be out of there Immediately,YESTERDAY!!!!

[steph3n]

you are failing to see the point, why stay somewhere we ARE NOT WELCOME? that is occupation


See, we are getting caught in the elastic theory of snapping back totally the other way.

A transition could entail so many things that dont mean more troop policing, troop deaths, but Huckabee made a good point and I dont care if its wrong to agree, "we broke it", not us, but the schmoes who did, and the way to honorably move ahead is to take that understanding, mix in Ron's strong urge to bring the troops home, with a plan that appeals to our conscience after all the bloodshed,

because THAT is what the other candidates will use to get voters.

[EvilEngineer]

LETS Leave

But lets make a plan of
TRANSITION somehow. Thats all!

Ron needs a plan.
He also says

"WE NEED TO GET ON GOLD"
but lets see an economic PLAN on how to do it

Time to get serious and assume the role,


I'll agree just to end the thread.

What we have right now are talking points and intentions, which frankly is 99.9% of what elections are. When have we really EVER been given a well thought out comprehensive plan AHEAD of the election. Never. To be fair, it's not really practical for anyone aside from an incumbent to lay out such plans since they are the only ones who know exactly what is going on (Bush is an exception, he's a moron), and how the logistics are operating at the current time. This is information that is needed to make a comprehensive plan, but since no one in this election (except for Hillary and Bill) have this kind of information, it's hard for them to make concrete plans yet. Don't fret the smaller things at this point, vague plans are petty much the level playing field at this moment.

Would it behoove Dr. Paul to start formulating plans right now, sure. But as I said, it's hard to make such plans when you don't have all of the information. You and I both know that with the uncensored intel that the president can receive Dr. Paul will make the right decision. He always has, and always will. Thank goodness for that.

[kylejack]

But theres the problem man,

NOT EVERYONE can "watch videos"

Uhhh?! So what the hell do you want Ron to do? This is all detailed in his writings...if they can't read his writings and they can't watch his videos, what exactly are you expecting?

[rp08rp]

you are failing to see the point, why stay somewhere we ARE NOT WELCOME? that is occupation

Its just not prudent IMO
Some level of transition and strategic consulting and aid is vital to their country that we destabilized in error, as well as to insure petroleum security.

But while you all say JUST GET OUT.

The competition is already spinning in their back rooms how LEAVING will
put us at risk and promote fear.

And the depth of Ron's argument WITH transition and levels of aid in terms of intellectual, international, etc will need to be SHARPENED

[rp08rp]

I'll agree just to end the thread.

What we have right now are talking points and intentions, which frankly is 99.9% of what elections are. When have we really EVER been given a well thought out comprehensive plan AHEAD of the election. Never. To be fair, it's not really practical for anyone aside from an incumbent to lay out such plans since they are the only ones who know exactly what is going on (Bush is an exception, he's a moron), and how the logistics are operating at the current time. This is information that is needed to make a comprehensive plan, but since no one in this election (except for Hillary and Bill) have this kind of information, it's hard for them to make concrete plans yet. Don't fret the smaller things at this point, vague plans are petty much the level playing field at this moment.

Would it behoove Dr. Paul to start formulating plans right now, sure. But as I said, it's hard to make such plans when you don't have all of the information. You and I both know that with the uncensored intel that the president can receive Dr. Paul will make the right decision. He always has, and always will. Thank goodness for that.


AGREE,
See my last post
Its about appealing to voters with some more comprehensive planning , I want this guy to win as badly as you all.

[steph3n]

so it is more prudent to occupy them? no it is not think about it for a bit, we are keeping them oppressed because "we" think they should be "transitioned"

when does it end what does the transition do? it does NOTHING, the transition needs is to give them their sovereign state back, and for them to decide on their own, it is what they want to do.




Its just not prudent IMO
Some level of transition and strategic consulting and aid is vital to their country that we destabilized in error, as well as to insure petroleum security.

But while you all say JUST GET OUT.

The competition is already spinning in their back rooms how LEAVING will
put us at risk and promote fear.

And the depth of Ron's argument WITH transition and levels of aid in terms of intellectual, international, etc will need to be SHARPENED

[kylejack]

Its just not prudent IMO

What we have is something that is ethically untenable...occupying a people who want us gone. What is prudent doesn't enter into the equation. It doesn't matter if subjugating them is prudent for our own purposes. The first question we must ask ourselves is, "Is it right?" Since it is not right, we shouldn't do it.

Many dictators throughout history have subjugated people because it was a prudent financial move. Ron Paul is not that way.

[BLS]

I never thought I'd read it, but there's a RP supporter here who wants to continue our military might in the Middle East because we 'need the oil'.

that's freaking great.

I think the guy you're looking for is over at www.rudy08.com, or www.fred08.com, or www.weruletheworld.com


I'm sorry....but I have no apologies for you.

Pssst....IT'S THEIR OIL!!!

[literatim]

Its just not prudent IMO
Some level of transition and strategic consulting and aid is vital to their country that we destabilized in error, as well as to insure petroleum security.

Insure petroleum security? It isn't our petroleum! It never was our petroleum and every ounce we shipped to Israel was STOLEN from Iraq. So are we to insure that the petroleum continually gets stolen?


But while you all say JUST GET OUT.

The competition is already spinning in their back rooms how LEAVING will
put us at risk and promote fear.

And the depth of Ron's argument WITH transition and levels of aid in terms of intellectual, international, etc will need to be SHARPENED

The competition said it would be a cake walk.

Why do we have the right to bring in international troops?

[Bob Cochran]

but the truth is, the war was about OIL.

And oil is MONEY.

"Black gold"...:D

As you know, the Bushes and Cheney are in bed with the other oilmen of the world. This is big money. This is global power. This IS what it's about.

[Ron Paul Fan]

so it is more prudent to occupy them? no it is not think about it for a bit, we are keeping them oppressed because "we" think they should be "transitioned"

when does it end what does the transition do? it does NOTHING, the transition needs is to give them their sovereign state back, and for them to decide on their own, it is what they want to do.

Because it's the honorable thing to do? NO! He keeps talking about our interests and our honor. He just doesn't realize that the Iraqis don't want us there. It's their country, not ours. Shouldn't they be allowed to choose? Preemptive strikes are the doctrine of dictators and rogue states. All of this talk about shifting troops around. Taking in 5 and reducing by 30, TOTALLY IRRELEVANT!

[steph3n]

also, we need to welcome the pro-war people that support ron paul for fiscal reasons, so perhaps we should use a butter knife instead of a razor blade when talking to people :)

[rp08rp]

I never thought I'd read it, but there's a RP supporter here who wants to continue our military might in the Middle East because we 'need the oil'.

that's freaking great.

I think the guy you're looking for is over at www.rudy08.com, or www.fred08.com, or www.weruletheworld.com


I'm sorry....but I have no apologies for you.

Pssst....IT'S THEIR OIL!!!


Hey moron,!
Ive been with Ron since 98!
Its not about militaRY might,
the country was DESTABILIZED by our moronic leaders,
you think its OK, to leave and say "DEAL WITH IT"?

[FluffyUnbound]

See, we are getting caught in the elastic theory of snapping back totally the other way.

A transition could entail so many things that dont mean more troop policing, troop deaths, but Huckabee made a good point and I dont care if its wrong to agree, "we broke it", not us, but the schmoes who did, and the way to honorably move ahead is to take that understanding, mix in Ron's strong urge to bring the troops home, with a plan that appeals to our conscience after all the bloodshed,

because THAT is what the other candidates will use to get voters.

The problem with calling for a "transition plan" is that is what we have now.

In theory, we are only occupying Iraq "in transition to" a stable Iraqi regime taking over from us.

Anything other than a withdrawal is merely a continuation of Bush's policy by another name. If we are going to occupy Iraq until there's no chance that the Iraqi regime will fall as soon as we leave, we will occupy Iraq forever. Or until the sun burns up all its hydrogen.

It's a little late in the day to start talking about the nation's honor in the context of the war on terror. Bush threw our honor away a hundredfold. Our national honor died in the secret CIA prisons, in the torture chambers of our chosen allies, at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, and so forth. Withdrawal is the first step to getting our honor back. Even if Iraq melts down when we leave.

[kylejack]

Hey moron,!
Ive been with Ron since 98!
Its not about militaRY might,
the country was DESTABILIZED by our moronic leaders,
you think its OK, to leave and say "DEAL WITH IT"?

Yes...Because THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT. And its their country.

[Ron Paul Fan]

Hey moron,!
Ive been with Ron since 98!
Its not about militaRY might,
the country was DESTABILIZED by our moronic leaders,
you think its OK, to leave and say "DEAL WITH IT"?

When we make a mistake, it is the obligation of the people through their respresentatives to CORRECT the mistake, not to continue the mistake!

[literatim]

Hey moron,!
Ive been with Ron since 98!
Its not about militaRY might,
the country was DESTABILIZED by our moronic leaders,
you think its OK, to leave and say "DEAL WITH IT"?

Yes, I do.

They will then be able either fight it out or talk and form their own government for themselves. We have no right to decide their government.

[Hope]

We're not getting oil from Iraq. It's going to their government. So no, we're not getting anything out of it if we stay.

Ron Paul has said several times that he has a plan to change our foreign policy in order to bring out troops home from Iraq and the other 130 countries we're currently stationed it.

Seems to me like you're jumping from lily pad to lily pad trying not to get your feet wet. First you say we should stay for hearts and minds, then to "help" the Iraqis rebuild their country, then for oil, and now it's all about the campaign? You've been around our current administration for too long!

[ronpaulfan]

HERE IS A VIDEO OF RON PAUL'S POSITION ON LEAVING IRAQ:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av1DjGkORvU

Please watch that

[rp08rp]

Yes, I do.

They will then be able either fight it out or talk and form their own government for themselves. We have no right to decide their government.




EXACTLY but WHO made them have to fight, or have to CHOOSE a new one?
Dont you see?
There has to be SOME level of diplomatic regard to Ron's message

[atilla]

but its about SELLING a campaign now,
there is another layer of people who dont get it, and they buy the FEAR and PATRIOTISM.

You must make the case and sell with bullet points, however brief they are.

This will be key to Ron breaking through another level.

SELL the troop pull out with a bit more, thats all.


trust me, i know these people, you will not be convincing them. they were raised during the cold war, indoctrinated in an us vs them mentality. when the soviet union fell they needed someone else to continue the fight against. the muslims conveniently obliged by having taken hostages in 1979. "we've always been at war with eastasia".

i was "them" as a teenager, i joined the army infantry to go fight communists (even though the army wanted me to go in a different field because of my high iq and facility with foreign languages). to them, there must be an enemy,"we've always been at war with eastasia". if there is no enemy it would mean that they as individuals and the U.S. as a country would be unimportant. like sweden.

to them, muslims, particularly middle east muslims, are the enemy. they must be fought because they threaten the future of the country and western civilization. "we've always been at war with eastasia" anyone who refuses to fight or argues against fighting the enemy of "america" is clearly a sniveling weak pussy, and a traitor.

this is not an issue of reason, facts or historical perspective. this is an issue of emotion backed by indoctrination from childhood. "we've always been at war with eastasia" read up some on propaganda, you do not change someone's heartfelt beliefs with reason or facts. you must first open their minds with the can opener of emotion."we've always been at war with eastasia"

in my other former occupation, minister of evangelism and prayer, i was a master of this. i would make all the little pussys cry, then they would come forward to be born again. "we've always been at war with eastasia" i even moved a badass mexican brujo, who had come to the meeting to intimidate everyone else, to give up his occupation to become a sweet little christian. (i never heard, i doubt it lasted more than a few days) "we've always been at war with eastasia"

these people will not be convinced by any amount of reason or facts. "we've always been at war with eastasia" they honestly believe that ron paul is a weak incompetent malingering pussy, and a traitor to the american people and the principles of the founders. "we've always been at war with eastasia" and, they will not listen to a word he says. "we've always been at war with eastasia"



what was i saying?..... anyway the important thing to remember is that we have always been at war with eastasia.

[kylejack]

EXACTLY but WHO made them have to fight, or have to CHOOSE a new one?
Dont you see?
There has to be SOME level of diplomatic regard to Ron's message
The "diplomatic regard" that you wish for Ron Paul to have is "screw your will of the electorate, we've got bigger plans for your country." That's the opposite of diplomatic regard. Their country, they decide.

Edit: Props to atilla.

[ronpaulfan]

HERE IS A VIDEO OF RON PAUL'S POSITION ON LEAVING IRAQ:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av1DjGkORvU

Please watch that

:D

[Taco John]

Ron Paul has made his position on this crystal clear. I don't think there is any more explaining that needs to be done.

[rp08rp]

The "diplomatic regard" that you wish for Ron Paul to have is "screw your will of the electorate, we've got bigger plans for your country." That's the opposite of diplomatic regard. Their country, they decide.

no no NO
You se, its not just black and white.

We all here want a stable IRAQ, why not have some semblance of assitance whatever that may be.

You are OK with breaking their house then telling them to clean it up?

We nuked JApan, we helped THEM.

[apropos]

As Paul said in one of the videos on youtube, there are several billion dollars in the pipeline right now for funding the war. One direct quote is that 'we wouldn't be able to withdraw in 24 hours'. That's just a practical fact. We'll be in Iraq for a little while even if Paul wins the presidency. Considering the size and number of resources we have in that country, we would need a few months to get things out in an orderly fashion in the best of scenarios.

There will be a transitional phase. It won't be 'just come home'. Somalia was a big propaganda victory for bin Laden's supporters, because we withdrew overnight, and was cited as such by the man years later in an interview. The saying that 'While it's dangerous to be America's enemy, it is fatal to be their friend' didn't spring up for no reason. Since we are already in Iraq, we have to consider other factors in international politics. It is a legitimate question to ask whether we are better to leave Iraq now after five years in.

Ultimately, this hammers home the wisdom of the Founding Fathers: stay out of the entangling affairs of international politics.

[Hope]

EXACTLY but WHO made them have to fight, or have to CHOOSE a new one?
Dont you see?
There has to be SOME level of diplomatic regard to Ron's message

Diplomatic regard? What do you mean?

In RP's plan, we'll be perfectly diplomatic. We'll talk with them, we'll trade with them. But will we give them guns and money and decide who among them will be placed in high gov't offices? No.

[ronpaulfan]

no no NO
You se, its not just black and white.

We all here want a stable IRAQ, why not have some semblance of assitance whatever that may be.

You are OK with breaking their house then telling them to clean it up?

We nuked JApan, we helped THEM.

Are you saying Ron Paul should take his marching orders from Al Qaeda?

:mad:

[rp08rp]

:D

i HATE gUILIANI

[literatim]

no no NO
You se, its not just black and white.

We all here want a stable IRAQ, why not have some semblance of assitance whatever that may be.

You are OK with breaking their house then telling them to clean it up?

We nuked JApan, we helped THEM.

We have no right to force on them any form of government or occupation by any international troops.

What would you want if China occupied Alaska and then later decided it was a mistake and pulled out? International troops? or for them to just leave?

[rp08rp]

As Paul said in one of the videos on youtube, there are several billion dollars in the pipeline right now for funding the war. One direct quote is that 'we wouldn't be able to withdraw in 24 hours'. That's just a practical fact. We'll be in Iraq for a little while even if Paul wins the presidency. Considering the size and number of resources we have in that country, we would need a few months to get things out in an orderly fashion.

There will be a transitional phase. It won't be 'just come home'.

SEE - THATS the thing people need to KNOW

[Daveforliberty]

My opinions:

1) The war was about oil, but not about us getting more and prices going down. It was about keeping production down to keep the price UP and making sure that U.S. and British oil interests, not Saddam Hussein, controlled it.

2) Literatim: I doubt that any oil is intended for Israel. Do you have proof of this? If so, what a way to inflame the Muslim world even more. Destroy a muslim country and sell plunder to Israel. Sheesh.

[pcosmar]

We could send them G.W Bush and company, Tell them it was their fault, and they can do as they please with them.

[steph3n]

yes and we are STILL in Japan and have protests wanting us out, how long has it been now?
Answer on your own, but my answer at least 45 years too long!


no no NO
You se, its not just black and white.

We all here want a stable IRAQ, why not have some semblance of assitance whatever that may be.

You are OK with breaking their house then telling them to clean it up?

We nuked JApan, we helped THEM.

[ronpaulfan]

So rp08rp, are you one of those people that "said it would be a cakewalk, a slam dunk and paid for by oil"?

:D



HERE IS A VIDEO OF RON PAUL'S POSITION ON LEAVING IRAQ:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av1DjGkORvU

Please watch that

[Hope]

Japan was a huge mistake. We never should have helped them. We're talking about a country that committed genocide against 26 million people. They tortured, murdered and in some cases cannibalized POWs. They made the Nazis look like amatuers and what did we do? We decided to pardon them for war crimes and then give them insane amounts of money. Turns out it was all in vain, since they teach their school children that we're the bad guys anyway. Yep, that's the fond trend that I want to emulate with Iraq!

[mconder]

Ron Paul has said that the troop withdrawal will be orderly and calculated to best protect our soldiers. What is unreasonable about this approach?

[Daveforliberty]

Turns out it was all in vain, since they teach their school children that we're the bad guys anyway. Yep, that's the fond trend that I want to emulate with Iraq!

WTF???? I've been to Japan many times and spent months there. The Japanese people by and large love us. This is absolutely untrue.

[steph3n]

Dave there are certain groups that teach hate of us, but it is not overall.

However they DONT like our military there, and they have reason don't they?


WTF???? I've been to Japan many times and spent months there. The Japanese people by and large love us. This is absolutely untrue.

[rp08rp]

Ron Paul has said that the troop withdrawal will be orderly and calculated to best protect our soldiers. What is unreasonable about this approach?

go read the posts - we need a TRANSITION EXPLAINED for the GUILT CONSCIENCE in American psyche for VOTERS

"JUST COME HOME"
will be used by the ESTABLISHMENT to throw at Ron to:

1.Play on People's Fears
2.Say that Oil will be at risk
3.Al Queda/Iran will expand into the area
4. Our troops honor, they will hijack that too

WATCH IT HAPPEN

[steph3n]

closer to primaries this can be explioted to show their ignorance and selling more lies to the US people.


go read the posts - we need a TRANSITION EXPLAINED for the GUILT CONSCIENCE in American psyche for VOTERS

"JUST COME HOME"
will be used by the ESTABLISHMENT to throw at Ron to:

1.Play on People's Fears
2.Say that Oil will be at risk
3.Al Queda/Iran will expand into the area
4. Our troops honor, they will hijack that too

WATCH IT HAPPEN

[Daveforliberty]

There is a political argument going on in Japan about our military, particularly in light of some heinous crimes committed by our servicemen. Many want us to leave, probably more want us to stay or don't care.

Of course I'd like all our troops home. But although there are going to be a tiny minority of people in any country who hate whomever, by and large the Japanese like us very much. And they DON'T teach their kids we're the bad guys in school.

[lucius]

...2) Literatim: I doubt that any oil is intended for Israel. Do you have proof of this?....

Asia Times: In the pipeline: More regime change
By Hooman Peimani

"An Israeli daily, Ha'aretz, has reported that Israel is seriously considering restarting a strategically important oil pipeline that once transferred oil from the Iraqi city of Mosul to Israel's northern port of Haifa. Given the Israeli claim of a positive US approach to the plan, the Israeli project provides grounds for a theory that the ongoing war against Iraq is in part a joint US, British and Israeli design for reshaping the Middle East to serve their particular interests, including their oil requirements..."

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/ED04Ak01.html

google pipeline from iraq to israel

[DeadheadForPaul]

no no NO
You se, its not just black and white.

We all here want a stable IRAQ, why not have some semblance of assitance whatever that may be.

You are OK with breaking their house then telling them to clean it up?

We nuked JApan, we helped THEM.

A better comparison would be Vietnam. Unlike WWII in the Pacific theatre, we havent won in Iraq nor will we. Therefore, it is a waste of lives and money to remain there - just like Vietnam

[rp08rp]

A better comparison would be Vietnam. Unlike WWII in the Pacific theatre, we havent won in Iraq nor will we. Therefore, it is a waste of lives and money to remain there - just like Vietnam

Sadly mate,
Vietnam was totally different,
they werent at the center of the OIL trade that this F'ed up economy relies on.

[klamath]

It seems to me a lot more people are receptive to the "just come message" than "we need to stay and help them". In 2004 you might have been right, Not now.

[literatim]

2) Literatim: I doubt that any oil is intended for Israel. Do you have proof of this? If so, what a way to inflame the Muslim world even more. Destroy a muslim country and sell plunder to Israel. Sheesh.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,940250,00.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/06/21/woil21.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/06/21/ixportal.html

You should also look up "Operation Shekhinah", you know it as "Operation Iraqi Freedom" and "Shock and Awe".

Iran is simply next on the list. These fools, both Democrat and Republican, are risking their political careers on promoting a war with Iran because AIPAC is heavily pushing for the invasion.

[DeadheadForPaul]

Sadly mate,
Vietnam was totally different,
they werent at the center of the OIL trade that this F'ed up economy relies on.

This notion that the nations/companies would stop selling us oil is ridiculous. In the past 100 years, the only time we have difficulty accessing oil was a result of our interventionist foreign policy in the first place! They rely on our demand for oil because we are a large nation with the world's largest economy. It is absurd to suggest that we must defend a resource which is available to us on the market. Our government is the main obstacle to accessible and affordable fuel. Additionally, as Dr. Paul has mentioned, it is neo-colonialism and mercantilism to attempt to control another nation's natural resources through force. I thought we broke away from that 200+ years ago

[Ron Paul Fan]

Sadly mate,
Vietnam was totally different,
they werent at the center of the OIL trade that this F'ed up economy relies on.

We have now lost almost 4,000 of our men over in Iraq. How long do you wanna be there? How many more do you wanna lose? What do we have to pay to save face? That's all we're doing is saving face. It's time we came home! 70% of the American people want us out of there. The campaign is doing pretty well with the "Just come home" message is it not? It's resonating! It would be a shame for Dr. Paul to back down now after strongly opposing the war for 5 years. I would lose some respect for him if he did that. He's already said that you can't withdrawal in 24 hours. There would be a plan. The oil is theirs. If we keep fighting this war for oil who knows how long we'll be there.

[Revolution9]

give the oil to them. we don't need any ****** oil

If the war stops prices will go back down to around the 60USD/barrel level. We can then send in American middlemen commodity brokers to secure multi-year contracts for sale of sweet Iraqi crude to the first to sign the contracts. Business goes on, the Iraqis have cash to rebuild and the US has oil at a price it can do business at.

Best
Randy

[heiwa]

I wonder if it 's possible to lay out a plan for withdrawal from Iraq over a year before he becomes president... How much do you think will change by then? Will Iraq even be the biggest of our foreign entanglements? (I certainly hope so, but I have my doubts...)

Maybe the most that Dr. Paul can say is, "Let's bring them home as quickly as possible." It would be unwise for him to say "in x amount of time" when we have no idea what the situation will be in January of 2009.

I wonder about the folks who are afraid for the welfare of the Iraqi people. If we want to really do what's best for the Iraqi people, then we (representatives - President Paul's staff) must go and see and talk to the people and find out. You and I simply have no clue what is best for them. Not now, and certainly not a year from now.

In Peace,
Jen

[ThePieSwindler]

Ah the whole "we need to stay to help them and clean up our mess" fallacy! Wonderful. The problem is, most of the Iraqis dont WANT us there. Take Bosrah for example. Once we stopped policing the streets, the insurgents stopped attacking us, and people could come out of their homes, and it was peaceful.

This whole iraq war literally has been built from the ground up on logical fallacy after logical fallacy. Politicians are either 1) fucking stupid or 2) love manipulating the population. Probably a mix of both. What tends to happen alot is people construct these arguements or "what ifs" that ignore certain truths and assume only one possible outcome for every action or event. They set up strawman arguments (like the notorious Fox "what if Iran was going to blow up the world" in the September 5th debate) as if they have any connection to reality, then they proceed to argue under those assumptions. The key to dismantling these lies is to attack their assumptions directly, and points out their fallacious reasoning. NEVER let them dictate the argument. The OP here is a good example of someone who poses an arguement based on fallacious reasoning.

Also, fuck Joe Biden. Sam Brownback too. They both advocate carving up Iraq into factions/regions, and then somehow "solving' the political mess. If that isn't the epitome of nationbuilding, i dont know what is. Sorry, but Joe Biden is a fucking moron, or a power monger. Both, probably.

[kylejack]

Maybe the most that Dr. Paul can say is, "Let's bring them home as quickly as possible." It would be unwise for him to say "in x amount of time" when we have no idea what the situation will be in January of 2009.
Situation: Troops still in Iraq
Solution: Bring them home


I wonder about the folks who are afraid for the welfare of the Iraqi people. If we want to really do what's best for the Iraqi people, then we (representatives - President Paul's staff) must go and see and talk to the people and find out. You and I simply have no clue what is best for them. Not now, and certainly not a year from now.
The Iraqis currently want us out by a strong majority as polling indicates. Assuming that is still the case when Ron takes office, we must pull out as soon as possible.

[ThePieSwindler]

Situation: Troops still in Iraq
Solution: Bring them home


The Iraqis currently want us out by a strong majority as polling indicates. Assuming that is still the case when Ron takes office, we must pull out as soon as possible.

Bingo, kylejack.. but not only that - our pulling out has shown so far a DECREASE in violence, such as in the bosrah region, where the british pulled out, people can now resume their normal lives as insurgents no longer have anyone to attck to defend their homeland. So this whole "if we leave iraq will crumble" shit is preposterous. Even if there were to be a civil war, history is not on our site in terms of peacekeeping in civil wars, so if its going to happen either way, lets get the fuck out. But even that is just propoganda. So many fallacious assumptions, so much propoganda.

[heiwa]

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

I agree completely that we need to get out of there as quickly as is feasible.

I also don't go for the whole, "Those poor Iraqi's" line. I do feel, however, that it is in our best interests to withdraw as gracefully as possible. In the interest of reducing blowback, I believe it behooves us to do our best to help the people understand that our foreign policy has truly changed with the new leadership. This is best accomplished (IMHO, of course) by finding out what the Iraqi people want and then actually doing it (within limits of course...).

"Fuck you, we're outta here." may not be the best policy. Of course, their response may well be, "Don't let the screen door hit you on the way out!"

My point, and I do have one, is that instead of chiseling our plans in stone a year in advance, maybe, just maybe, we ought to set our intention (get out PDQ), but leave the details of the withdrawal in the capable hands of Dr. Paul.

that's all.

In Peace,
Jen

[Paul4Prez]

I think "just come home" is a great contrast to the Democrats, who can't seem to figure out how to do what voters elected them to do in November of 2006 -- end the war.

It's also the appropriate action if you've invaded and occupied another country in violation of international law and your own Constitution.

[Adamsa]

Ron himself said it wouldn't be instant but he would leave the Iraqi government with the message to "do it quickly because we're leaving" and do it so troops aren't harmed in the withdraw.

A lot of Iraqi officials think they'd be fine without us anyway, I don't see the harm, it's their country.

[michaelwise]

I an just going to say this once on this thread;

George Bush has until Noon on January 20TH 2009, to win his war, because Inauguration Day is the day Ron Paul will start bringing the troops home!

[SeanEdwards]

Because just leaving, and pulling EVERYONE out


1-Is a perception "we lost" for al Queda recruitment

2- The AHOLES that caused this mess withstanding,
in a way, America destroyed the stability there by the bullshit war, is it smart to just totally walk away and not lend SOME help?

No, it's a message that America was misled into an unneeded war, and that we've now come to our senses and kicked the warmongers to the curb. The election and a new administration give this nation its best opportunity to make a radical break with our old foreign policy of empire.

While it's true that we may have "lost" the mission of turning Iraq into Sweden, I can assure you that nobody in the middle east will want to antagonize the US into renewed conflict. They will be grateful to see our lumbering destructive war machine depart from their doorstep and will not want to see it come back.

Point 2: We can not be a stabilizing force in Iraq because we are infidel invaders. The presence of Americans there is a constant humiliation and provocation to Iraqis, and assorted radical muslims from the whole region. We are despised there. Anything we try to touch, regardless of our intentions, will turn out badly. We could have U.S. soldiers handing out sacks of gold and ice cream, and the Iraqis would still be killing the people that accept the gifts as collaborators. We need to get the fuck out, and let those freaks sort out their own problems.

[ronpaulfan]

I think Ron Paul can explain his position the best

[ronpaulfan]

One more time:

HERE IS A VIDEO OF RON PAUL'S POSITION ON LEAVING IRAQ:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av1DjGkORvU

Please watch that

:D

[xcalybur]

The reality is that Ron Paul says that we just marched in we should just come home, but even if the order was given on day 1 it would take months and months to get out of there. The same thing with all the other countries in the world that we have a military presence with.

Here is a stat that will shock you:
Total known United States Military bases:
In the US: about 290
Outside the US: Over 750

Does that seem right? We have over 750 bases overseas! WTH?

[FreedomLover]

I'm hoping he will come up with some more specific strategies in withdrawing from iraq soon

[madcat033]

Because just leaving, and pulling EVERYONE out


1-Is a perception "we lost" for al Queda recruitment

2- The AHOLES that caused this mess withstanding,
in a way, America destroyed the stability there by the bullshit war, is it smart to just totally walk away and not lend SOME help?


No... the beautiful thing about a representative democracy is that we DON'T have to say we lost when we change leaders. Ron Paul takes office, and he immediately changes things. He doesn't say "we can't win" and then come home. He says "I'm sorry, we shouldn't have been there in the first place" and then comes home.

And also, when we're dealing with issues this big, we can't worry about stuff like a perception that "we lost" or "who got the last hit" or any of that shit. It's irrelevant. Our being in the region helps their recruitment MUCH more than any "we lost" perception would.

[SeanEdwards]

I'm hoping he will come up with some more specific strategies in withdrawing from iraq soon

Grab your toothbrush and get on the plane.

[Delivered4000]

Ron says in one interview, I think it was on msnbc, that you can't just pull out in 24 hours

[Chrispy]

I am a soldier, I can can attest that as long as we are in Iraq the body bags will be flowing steadily. Even if we confine ourselves to the giant multi multi million dollar fortresses the mortars and rockets wont stop. You will see the tallies of dead Americans go up and up and up until we are out.

[JaylieWoW]

Because just leaving, and pulling EVERYONE out


1-Is a perception "we lost" for al Queda recruitment

2- The AHOLES that caused this mess withstanding,
in a way, America destroyed the stability there by the bullshit war, is it smart to just totally walk away and not lend SOME help?

As to reason #1 us pulling out is not necessary for al Queda to proclaim that the "Americans Lost". They proclaimed victory the moment the first airplane hit the towers. Additionally, what is often misunderstood is that our very presence in Iraq (or anywhere in the Middle East for that matter) HELPS al Queda recruit. It is simply this, the more innocent civilians we harm, the easier it is for al Queda to say, "See I told you so...". In fact, we are doing exactly what they want us to do, so really, by staying we ARE losing no matter how many of them we kill. Frankly, if you can't see that, I don't know how to put it any plainer.

For #2 I would be willing to say yes, we could help, but only specifically for hunting down OBL. None of this nation building crap anymore. Let the Iraqis get on with their lives, the longer we stay the more innocent people will be killed, the difference is that it can (and will) be blamed ON us. If they're killing each other, they will only blame each other.

Again, I believe Reagan said it best in his "diaries".... "we just don't understand the irrationality of mid-east politics". I don't think we ever will, at least not in my lifetime.

I do understand the doubt though, I feel it often enough myself. However, I've also come to realize that's exactly what the terrorists want. By instilling doubt in their "enemy" they are able to manipulate us. I sure wish more people would get mad about being "manipulated" the way we are, maybe we'd all finally wake up and stop doubting.

[Drknows]

We now have to leave SOME troops

Biden makes a great point here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OhPG7mk8yQ

By saying JUST COME HOME

With no plan or gradual adjustment , I think it sounds irresponsible.

Ron needs to address this IMO

What is there not to get? It was a mistake to go so its a mistake to stay!

Iraqis are not our children we do not have to babysit them.

[Drknows]

I'm hoping he will come up with some more specific strategies in withdrawing from iraq soon

Here's a strategy...... JUST COME HOME.

[itsnobody]

First of all , Ron Paul doesn't want to just come home as in leaving within 24 hours, its a period of 8-10 months

Second of all the progress made in Anbar Province was not caused by the US troops policing the streets but rather by the Sunnis and Shiites getting their act together knowing that the US will leave....

So its all for the best, it would help everyone

[Drknows]

LOOK, I want Ron to win badly, but
just marching out without providing a transition package for the shit storm this ADMIN created might not be wise.

AFTER ALL, this is for the hearts and minds of ARABS whether you agree or not
while the BUSH ADMIN has destroyed our reputation

Listen man if you want to asemble a peace keeping force and go over to Iraq on your own time and dime.

Go right ahead.

Our men and women didnt sign up to protect Iraqis they signed up to protect America.

[DAZ]

I haven't posted here for quite a while for various different reasons, but let me just say one thing. If the members here have learned anything since I stopped being a regular, it is how to alienate someone who disagrees even one iota with Ron Paul's stance. And that is a fantastic way to lose an election.

To rp08rp: First, give my thanks to your brother for his service. I don't think anyone else here has said that yet. Both of my brothers are in uniform. I hate to think that they may ever be harmed in service to this country, but I know that they will do what duty calls them to do. It is a choice they made when they entered the service.

To everyone else: Idealism is a wonderful thing, but ignoring the realities of a situation in favor of an idealistic goal can hurt you more than you would ever expect. Don't ignore the likely repercussions of an immediate pull-out (I know, I know, several months....). And please, learn to treat people with differing opinions in a civil manner. You catch more flies with honey....vinegar just pisses people off.

[DjLoTi]

You catch more flies with honey....vinegar just pisses people off.

I will safely say that goes for both parties.

[ronpaulitician]

Leave soldiers over their so we can murder more Iraqi civilians?
Or get killed by Iraqi and non-Iraqi fighters?

[Corydoras]

I don't get what this thread is about. Let me put that another way. The OP thinks RP should expand or modify what he is saying about immediate withdrawal. Other posters disagree. For what reason is all this shouting? When there was that old thread about what positions people disagreed with Ron about, nobody got this excited.