CNN places eligibility in primetime spotlight: AC badgers Lt Col

[lynnf]

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=151377


CNN, one of the mainstream media outlets that have either belittled or ignored the question of Barack Obama's eligibility to be president since before the 2008 election, tonight gave the topic a primetime spotlight as Anderson Cooper defended the computer-generated online image of a Certification of Live Birth that lists a 1961 Hawaii birth for the president.

...



YouTube - Obama Birth Certificate: Mainstream Media Interviews Lt. Col. Lakin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xUDtGAaNFQ&feature=player_embedded)



http://citizensagainstproobamamediabias.wordpress.com/2010/05/08/ac-360-ltc-lakin-lawyer-paul-jensen-videotext/

Full Transcript follows


[Emphasis added]

COOPER: He’s a decorated Army doctor, and tonight Lieutenant colonel Terrence Lakin has become the face of the so-called birthers movement, whose followers believe President Obama may not have been born in the U.S. and may not be eligible to be president of the United States.

Lieutenant Colonel Lakin, who’s been an active-duty physician for the military for 18 years, has been ordered to deploy to Afghanistan for a second tour of duty. But Lakin is refusing that command, saying the order is coming from a commander in chief who he believes may not, in fact, be a natural-born citizen.

Lakin has also invited his own court-martial and says he wants proof the president was born in the U.S.

Lieutenant Colonel Terrence Lakin joins me now, along with his attorney, Paul Jensen. I appreciate both of you being with us. Colonel, you say you’re refusing your orders because, quote, “There is significant evidence or unanswered speculation that Mr. Obama is not eligible to be president.” You said that in a note to General Casey.

Now, ignoring the idea that you actually cited speculation as a justification for your decision, but to say there’s significant evidence that the president was not born in America is just false. I mean, you’re an honorable guy. You’ve served your country incredibly well. You’re a doctor. Do you honestly believe President Obama was not born in Hawaii?

PAUL JENSEN, LT. LAKIN’S LAWYER: Well, Anderson, let me answer as his lawyer…

COOPER: No, no, no. Excuse me. Wait, this is a doctor — excuse me. This is a doctor. This is a man who served his country for 18 years. I think he can answer a question by himself.

JENSEN: I think that the lawyer should protect the client from incriminating himself. You say it’s false. You’re not prosecuting this case.

COOPER: OK, lieutenants Colonel, if you call up the state of Hawaii and you ask for a birth certificate, you’re sent a certificate of live birth. That is the official document. And the president has…

JENSEN: That is not correct.

COOPER: And the president …

JENSEN: That is absolutely not correct.

COOPER: And the president has released — and the president has released that certificate of live birth — there it is — to newspapers. In 1961, had birth announcements provided by the state of Hawaii Health Department. The Republican governor of Hawaii sent someone to personally view the birth certificate at the Department of health and says it’s there.

JENSEN: That’s not…

COOPER: Again, can the colonel not talk for himself? THE GUY’s an adult.

JENSEN: You said that that’s a birth certificate, Mr. Cooper. Now you want to tell the truth to your viewers.

COOPER: According to the state of Hawaii…

JENSEN: That’s an abstract, a computer-generated abstract…

COOPER: According to the state of Hawaii, the certificate of live birth, and I’m quoting from the state of Hawaii Health Department. The certificate of live birth is the standard form acceptable by federal agencies.

So are you saying, Colonel, but you’re not actually saying anything. But I would appreciate it if you actually would, and not hide behind your attorney. Are you actually saying that all soldiers who currently serve who are from Hawaii should be suspect because that’s what they provide?

["This guy" tries to speak and AC cuts him off after 10 words.]

LT. COL. TERRENCE LAKIN, CHALLENGES OBAMA’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE: This is a constitutional matter. And the truth matters, and…

COOPER: Well, and answers matter. Can you answer my question? Should all soldiers who are from Hawaii and who have given certificate of live births as their proof of citizenship, should they all be suspect now?

LAKIN: This isn’t a matter about all soldiers. This is a matter about…

COOPER: Well, you’re saying the president…

LAKIN: … the two positions that are — require — that require a natural-born citizen.

COOPER: You’ve take countless orders in your — in your laudable service over the years. Have you ever asked for any superior’s birth certificate?

JENSEN: You know, that really is — begs the question…

COOPER: No, no, no, sir, please let your client answer. You served under General Casey. Where was he born?

JENSEN: I’m the lawyer, and I’m going to tell you, Mr. Cooper, the issue isn’t about where General Casey was born, where Mr. …

COOPER: He doesn’t know. Because you’ve never asked the question, because you just assume that they’re Americans.

JENSEN: He doesn’t have to be a natural-born citizen to be the chief of staff of the Army.

COOPER: Actually, to serve in the United States Army, according to your own documents, citizenship papers have to be brought to bear. In fact…

JENSEN: That’s not the issue. To serve as president of the United State…

COOPER: In your own letter…

JENSEN: Mister — Mr. Cooper, please.

COOPER: Colonel in your own letter….

JENSEN: … to be president of the United States…

COOPER: … to General Casey you have said that you had to provide your birth certificate.

JENSEN: You’re afraid of letting me answer. Are you afraid of letting me answer?

COOPER: No, I’d like your client to answer.

JENSEN: The issue under the United States Constitution is whether the president is eligible to hold the office. That determine — is determined by whether he’s 35 years old and a natural-born citizen. Those are not requirements for the chief of staff of the Army, sir. And what Colonel Lakin has said is that there’s mounting evidence that he is not. And the original birth certificate has not been released.

COOPER: Right, OK. There’s not mounting evidence. And he has…

JENSEN: That’s what you said.

[This is hysterical. Just watch AC become a blinking!!! machine!!!]

COOPER: Excuse me. Let me respond. He has taken orders for years from people, probably thousands of orders. Countless orders. He has never questioned the legitimacy of the people he is taking orders from. General Casey. But he doesn’t know where General Casey is born. For all he knows, General Casey could be a foreign-born, not an American citizen.

JENSEN: Mr. Cooper, if you’ve done your research, you know that, in the state of Hawaii, there’s a statute that allows anyone born outside the state of Hawaii, including in a foreign country, to obtain a Hawaiian birth certificate at any age by going back and filling out a form…

COOPER: Right. And if you’d done your research, you’d know that, on the certificate of live birth, it would indicate if the person was born in another country. It would say they were born in another country...

JENSEN: That’s not correct.

COOPER: That is correct. That is the fact.

JENSEN: I beg your pardon. Under Hawaiian statute 338-17.8, there’s nothing that says that in the statute.

COOPER: OK.

JENSEN: You point it out to me if I’m wrong.

COOPER: In your complaint to General Casey, Colonel, you say, quote, that you’re not seeking any grandstanding or publicity for this action. How can you seriously say that? I mean, you put out a YouTube video with your — talking, frankly, more than you’ve talked here tonight. You have this group paying all your legal fees, The American Patriot Foundation Legal Defense Fund. They’ve provided the attorney who’s sitting next to you. And they’re fundraising based on you. They’re raising money using you.

LAKIN: I attempted all avenues I could over a year ago. I submitted an Article 138, which is the only way that I could research how to — how to address this issue, asking and begging my leadership for guidance in how to — how to address this issue. And the answers that I got were not…

JENSEN: Mr. Cooper, you — the standard is not satisfying you — the standard is to satisfy…

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Lieutenant Colonel, you sound like an honorable man — excuse me. I’m addressing your client. Lieutenant Colonel, you seem like an incredibly honorable man who’s obviously served his country. You’re a doctor; you’re an educated man. Why is it this issue? I mean, of all the orders you’ve taken, of all the people you’ve served under, why this, why now? What is it that has got you so, you know, sticking on this issue?

LAKIN: It’s a fundamental of the Constitution, and my oath of office is to the Constitution. And I believe we need truth on this matter.

COOPER: But I mean, what’s wrong with the certificate of live birth, in your opinion? What’s wrong — I mean, how do you explain a newspaper — two newspapers in 1961 announcing the birth of Barack Obama in Hawaii? [NOT] Which is not something his parents did or his grandparents did. Those are based on health records sent by the health department, as it does for every person born in Hawaii. And everyone gets a newspaper now.

JENSEN: Mr. Cooper, that’s simply not correct. And the issue is instead why hasn’t the president released the original birth certificate, if one exists? This could be over tonight. Tonight. Release the birth certificate, if it exists, signed by the doctor in 1961. It’s in the state of Hawaii’s records. If…

COOPER: I’m just going to read you a quote from Janice Okubu from the department of health: “Our certificate of live birth is the standard form which was modeled after national standards that are acceptable by federal agencies and organizations.”

JENSEN: But it is not the only form…

COOPER: The governor of Hawaii, a Republican, has said, and I quote, “I had my health doctor, who is a physician by background, go personally view the birth certificate in the birth records of the department of health, and we issued a news release.”

JENSEN: And she is not going to be testifying at the court-martial. This is a criminal case. The president should release the original birth certificate, and this would be over tonight. These other documents and testimony are not admissible and will not be admitted in court.

COOPER: Well, I appreciate you being on the program tonight. Lieutenant Colonel Terrence Lakin, I appreciate it, as well. Thank you, sir.

JENSEN: Thank you.

[Bruno]

Anderson once again proving he is a piece of crap.

[lynnf]

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=151669

...
Does the governor of Hawaii routinely order the inspection of birth records?

Isn't that highly unusual?

I would say it is.

When is this charade going to end?

When is the double-talk going to cease?

Why are the American people given so many different stories about Obama's nativity?

...

[Kýrie eléison]

I don't know if the birth certificate issue is a distraction provided by TPTB or not, but even if it is, I can walk and chew gum at the same time (and spit the gum out, if need be).

But damn. This interview says a lot. I've never been in the birther camp, but this really makes me wonder as to the validity of whether he really even is Constitutionally eligible to be President.

[jkr]

that cooper guy is scary, he terrified me, hes a terrorist!
he acted so frustrated to not get his "answer" while he was talking over them and interpting them THE ENTIRE TIME!

whadda dick


why doesnt the lawyer bring up the dual citizenship issue?

[Bruno]

that cooper guy is scary, he terrified me, hes a terrorist!
he acted so frustrated to not get his "answer" while he was talking over them and interpting them THE ENTIRE TIME!

whadda dick


why doesnt the lawyer bring up the dual citizenship issue?

He was lucky he was able to get in what he did with Cooper talking all over him like that.

[Stary Hickory]

Well this question was swept under the rug a couple of years ago. Those who asked ridiculed and attacked...but no answers ever came. Why in the world not release a BC if you have one? This is ridiculous.

[tmosley]

And AC probably wonders why he has the worst ratings of any cable news "journalist".

[spudea]

http://static.politifact.com.s3.amazonaws.com/graphics/birthCertObama.jpg

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/

[tmosley]

http://static.politifact.com.s3.amazonaws.com/graphics/birthCertObama.jpg

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/

Since the certificate number is blacked out, I suppose that constitutes a change, and invalidates the certificate :p

[spudea]

Since the certificate number is blacked out, I suppose that constitutes a change, and invalidates the certificate :p

Ok lets see your birth certificate posted on the internet with nothing blacked out. His birth certificate has been certified and accepted to qualify him as natural born. Its like asking the age old question "if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound"

and you're saying it didn't make a sound because you weren't there to hear it and anyone that claims that a sound was made is perpetrating a conspiracy.

[Bruno]

Ok lets see your birth certificate posted on the internet with nothing blacked out. His birth certificate has been certified and accepted to qualify him as natural born. Its like asking the age old question "if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound"

and you're saying it didn't make a sound because you weren't there to hear it and anyone that claims that a sound was made is perpetrating a conspiracy.


He's the POTUS. Why would he need to hide that?

[specsaregood]

Ok lets see your birth certificate posted on the internet with nothing blacked out. His birth certificate has been certified and accepted to qualify him as natural born. Its like asking the age old question "if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound"


As much as I think the whole birther thing just a distraction being used to divide and keep people occupied, if Obama wanted to end the controversy once and for all, he could order the live birth certificate released to the public. It would only take a phone call and it would end all this controversy. You would think somebody that claims to be all about transparency and healing the nation after Bush would do this simple task. It is Obama's own actions that cause the distrust, which leads people to conclude either:
1. he is just effing with the birthers.
or
2. there is no certificate of live birth on record showing him born in HI
or
3. there is some other information on that certificate that he doesn't want released, such as another father.

Of course McCain shouldn't have been considered eligible either, which is why I think it was all one big gag by TPTB.

[spudea]

if Obama wanted to end the controversy once and for all, he could order the live birth certificate released to the public.

I doubt this has ever been done in history. Why start now? Did you personally view the original copy of any other president's birth certificate? Obama has done more than any previous president by posting that image online.

This myth is perpetuated by the other myths that he is muslim and shouldn't be trusted...

[RM918]

As much as I think the whole birther thing just a distraction being used to divide and keep people occupied, if Obama wanted to end the controversy once and for all, he could order the live birth certificate released to the public. It would only take a phone call and it would end all this controversy. You would think somebody that claims to be all about transparency and healing the nation after Bush would do this simple task. It is Obama's own actions that cause the distrust, which leads people to conclude either:
1. he is just effing with the birthers.
or
2. there is no certificate of live birth on record showing him born in HI
or
3. there is some other information on that certificate that he doesn't want released, such as another father.

Of course McCain shouldn't have been considered eligible either, which is why I think it was all one big gag by TPTB.

Exactly. He's doing it because it's been very politically profitable to frame his opposition as loons, and this is doing it. Maybe, MAYBE he'll wait until they reach a height where they may actually force him to do it, he'll release it and they'll be publicly humiliated even worse than they already are.

I, personally, think the whole thing is a bunch of hock. But really, if he ISN'T really a citizen, how hard do you think it'd be for him to just fake one? He's the fucking President of the U.S, I find the whole endeavor to be pointless.

[specsaregood]

I doubt this has ever been done in history. Why start now? Did you personally view the original copy of any other president's birth certificate? Obama has done more than any previous president by posting that image online.

How many previous presidents had fathers with NON-US citizenship? That is a key factor.

[spudea]

How many previous presidents had fathers with NON-US citizenship? That is a key factor.

It is not a factor when determining natural born. It is a factor to peoples own fears and distrust with anyone not like themselves which then leads to wild, unproven, baseless myths.

This is the McCarthy type tactics. Was your father a communist? was your great-grandfather a communist? Then YOU are obviously a communist despite any evidence to the contrary.

[RM918]

It is not a factor when determining natural born. It is a factor to peoples own fears and distrust with anyone not like themselves which then leads to wild, unproven, baseless myths.

This is the McCarthy type tactics. Was your father a communist? was your great-grandfather a communist? Then YOU are obviously a communist despite any evidence to the contrary.

I'll have to disagree with you here. While it doesn't implicate him, really, having a foreign father does raise skepticism a reasonable degree. The chances are obviously higher. This is not some battle of ideologies, though it may be being used for one, the key point is a matter of fact which is being disputed even if I think the dispute is ultimately pointless.

[Bruno]

It is not a factor when determining natural born. It is a factor to peoples own fears and distrust with anyone not like themselves which then leads to wild, unproven, baseless myths.

This is the McCarthy type tactics. Was your father a communist? was your great-grandfather a communist? Then YOU are obviously a communist despite any evidence to the contrary.

There are few requirements to being President of the United States listed withinr the Constitution. If he was not 35, he would not have qualifed. If he is not a natural born citizen he would not have qualifed.

He has not proven sufficiently in the minds of many that he was qualified. That's what this is about. When people thrown in arguments such as yours about the speculation about him being muslim, or McCarthy-type tactics, it is only diverting away from the true question.

Why spend over a million dollars to stay out of court when you could release the original birth certificate for free?

[Fredom101]

The reason why CNN or any other mainstream media source would cover this is that it doesn't matter. They know that even if Obama were to be impeached over this (highly unlikely), Joe Biden would be the new president and it would be business-as-usual in government (albeit with a far less charismatic speaker).

This issue is a non-issue. If Obama is gone it changes nothing. People still perceive government to have authority in their lives. Time to move to a more pressing issue, like, what gives the president the moral authority to make any decisions with YOUR life?

[specsaregood]

It is not a factor when determining natural born. It is a factor to peoples own fears and distrust with anyone not like themselves which then leads to wild, unproven, baseless myths.

It is a factor, since his mother was not old enough to transmit citizenship to him. Quite simply, if he was not born IN the US, then he wouldnt even be a US citizen via his mother, let alone a natural born citizen.

[TER]

Why spend over a million dollars to stay out of court when you could release the original birth certificate for free?

ding ding ding we have a winner!

[Bruno]

The reason why CNN or any other mainstream media source would cover this is that it doesn't matter. They know that even if Obama were to be impeached over this (highly unlikely), Joe Biden would be the new president and it would be business-as-usual in government (albeit with a far less charismatic speaker).

This issue is a non-issue. If Obama is gone it changes nothing. People still perceive government to have authority in their lives. Time to move to a more pressing issue, like, what gives the president the moral authority to make any decisions with YOUR life?

there is more than one way to skin a cat (or catch him in an outright lie)

[Fredom101]

there is more than one way to skin a cat (or catch him in an outright lie)

And let's say we skin the Obamacat. Then what? Most democrats will be furious and stand behind Joe Biden even more.

This is actually worse than a non-issue. This is an issue that will do the opposite of bringing people together.

[Bruno]

And let's say we skin the Obamacat. Then what? Most democrats will be furious and stand behind Joe Biden even more.

This is actually worse than a non-issue. This is an issue that will do the opposite of bringing people together.

They'll be furious about what? That the "birthers" were right, or that their savior was outed as a fraud?

Ever seen a Joe Biden rally? I have. Pathetic

[tmosley]

Ok lets see your birth certificate posted on the internet with nothing blacked out. His birth certificate has been certified and accepted to qualify him as natural born. Its like asking the age old question "if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound"

and you're saying it didn't make a sound because you weren't there to hear it and anyone that claims that a sound was made is perpetrating a conspiracy.

Apparently you missed the :p at the end of my post.

Laugh a little for Christ's sake.

[TER]

And let's say we skin the Obamacat. Then what? Most democrats will be furious and stand behind Joe Biden even more.

This is actually worse than a non-issue. This is an issue that will do the opposite of bringing people together.

Welcome to the forums! :)

Here we believe what brings people together is truth and not deception.

[Imaginos]

.....Joe Biden would be the new president and it would be business-as-usual in government (albeit with a far less charismatic speaker).

Joe Biden'd make even worse president than Obama.
Biden proclaimed himself as "a Zionist (his word, not mine)" in an interview during presidential campaign.
He said, quote, "you don't have to be Jewish descent to be a Zionist. I am a Zionist".
Can you imagine how much damage Biden'd do if he's the president?

[Fredom101]

They'll be furious about what? That the "birthers" were right, or that their savior was outed as a fraud?

Ever seen a Joe Biden rally? I have. Pathetic

Does it really matter what they are furious about?
They will stand for party over principle as most people do.
Never thought I'd see people rally so much behind John Fucking Kerry, but it happened. And it would be no different with Biden. So why waste any time trying to impeach Obama? Might as well try to strike the root.

[libertarian4321]

The reason why CNN or any other mainstream media source would cover this is that it doesn't matter. They know that even if Obama were to be impeached over this (highly unlikely), Joe Biden would be the new president and it would be business-as-usual in government (albeit with a far less charismatic speaker).

This issue is a non-issue. If Obama is gone it changes nothing. People still perceive government to have authority in their lives. Time to move to a more pressing issue, like, what gives the president the moral authority to make any decisions with YOUR life?

Here is my take on the LTC's actions.

This guy is show boating for political purposes. Neither he nor any other military officer gets to disobey the orders of those appointed over him (those orders he received were NOT signed by Barack Obama, they were signed by his military superior) just because he believes (or conveniently claims to believe) that the President is, for whatever reason, illegitimate.

They didn't get to make that call when Bush was President because they believed the war was illegitimate (or whatever), and they don't get to make that call when Obama is President because they are birthers.

The military would be chaos if every soldier who didn't want to be deployed got to demand a court hearing for any theory he might have about why he should not be deployed.

The LTC should be HAMMERED- I wouldn't send him to Afghanistan, I'd send him to Leavenworth, just as they would do with any other soldier who consistently failed to follow the orders of his superior officers.

If this clown really felt that he couldn't serve under Obama, he should have RESIGNED HIS COMMISSION THE DAY OBAMA WAS ELECTED! He has no military obligation and he could have resigned at any time.

As a military officer, I sure as Hell didn't approve of Bush's war in Iraq, but would have gone if ordered to do so, because that is my duty. The same with Obama- he's not my idea of the ideal CINC, but he was elected by the American people, and it's my duty to follow orders- I don't get to demand a court date before deployment because I claim to have a quibble over the President's birth status.

[Fredom101]

Here is my take on the LTC's actions.

This guy is show boating for political purposes. Neither he nor any other military officer gets to disobey the orders of those appointed over him (those orders he received were NOT signed by Barack Obama, they were signed by his military superior) just because he believes (or conveniently claims to believe) that the President is, for whatever reason, illegitimate.

They didn't get to make that call when Bush was President because they believed the war was illegitimate (or whatever), and they don't get to make that call when Obama is President because they are birthers.

The military would be chaos if every soldier who didn't want to be deployed got to demand a court hearing for any theory he might have about why he should not be deployed.

The LTC should be HAMMERED- I wouldn't send him to Afghanistan, I'd send him to Leavenworth, just as they would do with any other soldier who consistently failed to follow the orders of his superior officers.

If this clown really felt that he couldn't serve under Obama, he should have RESIGNED HIS COMMISSION THE DAY OBAMA WAS ELECTED! He has no military obligation and he could have resigned at any time.

As a military officer, I sure as Hell didn't approve of Bush's war in Iraq, but would have gone if ordered to do so, because that is my duty. The same with Obama- he's not my idea of the ideal CINC, but he was elected by the American people, and it's my duty to follow orders- I don't get to demand a court date before deployment because I claim to have a quibble over the President's birth status.

So soldiers should be punished for thinking? You're advocating having brain-dead people for purposes of killing other people.

And, it's a myth that "the American people" elected anybody. I sure didn't. Here, you're supporting the mob-rule mentality. Only 38% of eligible people actually vote. So there's no way most people voted for Obama, and it's not "your duty" to do anything you don't want to do, especially when it has nothing to do with "defending our freedoms".

[Imaginos]

I am not a birther and I do not have any strong opinion on this subject.
However, the interview was disturbing.
It's more like an interrogation than legit interview. :eek:

[tangent4ronpaul]

Since the certificate number is blacked out, I suppose that constitutes a change, and invalidates the certificate :p

Since it bears his current name, and not the name he had when he was born, that would indicate that the data on the certificate has been modified and would thus invalidate the certificate.

What else was changed?

Obama spent over a million sealing his records - he's hiding something.

-t

[libertarian4321]

So soldiers should be punished for thinking? You're advocating having brain-dead people for purposes of killing other people.


You can think all you want, but as a soldier, you don't get to do as you damned well please. The military isn't a free-for-all where everyone gets to do what he thinks is best. If you can't live with that, find another occupation- be an artist, or musician or whatever, but don't be a soldier.



And, it's a myth that "the American people" elected anybody. I sure didn't. Here, you're supporting the mob-rule mentality. Only 38% of eligible people actually vote. So there's no way most people voted for Obama,

Irrelevant blather- it is not required that "most Americans" vote for the President (in fact, no President in history has even come close to have the majority of Americans, or even the majority of voting eligible Americans, vote for him.



and it's not "your duty" to do anything you don't want to do, especially when it has nothing to do with "defending our freedoms".

Obviously, you've never been in the military, because you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Zippyjuan]

So soldiers should be punished for thinking? You're advocating having brain-dead people for purposes of killing other people.

And, it's a myth that "the American people" elected anybody. I sure didn't. Here, you're supporting the mob-rule mentality. Only 38% of eligible people actually vote. So there's no way most people voted for Obama, and it's not "your duty" to do anything you don't want to do, especially when it has nothing to do with "defending our freedoms".

The guy has been in the military for about fifteen years- following orders including a previous order to deploy to Afghanistan. Obama has been his Commander in Chief for over a year now- and he has continued to follow orders without questioning them. Now he is getting re-deployed to Afghanistan and suddenly decides he can no longer follow orders? He is just trying to get out of services he promised to do for his country (and for which he is well compensated). If he had problems with his Commander in Chief he should have raised them long before this.

[Fredom101]

The guy has been in the military for about fifteen years- following orders including a previous order to deploy to Afghanistan. Obama has been his Commander in Chief for over a year now- and he has continued to follow orders without questioning them. Now he is getting re-deployed to Afghanistan and suddenly decides he can no longer follow orders? He is just trying to get out of services he promised to do for his country (and for which he is well compensated). If he had problems with his Commander in Chief he should have raised them long before this.

I completely disagree that he is doing these so-called services "for his country". The wars are completely bogus and are of no purpose other than making military contractors rich.

[Theocrat]

http://thestarkperspective.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/obamas-birth-certificate.jpg

Let the issue die, please.

[libertarian4321]

The guy has been in the military for about fifteen years- following orders including a previous order to deploy to Afghanistan. Obama has been his Commander in Chief for over a year now- and he has continued to follow orders without questioning them. Now he is getting re-deployed to Afghanistan and suddenly decides he can no longer follow orders? He is just trying to get out of services he promised to do for his country (and for which he is well compensated). If he had problems with his Commander in Chief he should have raised them long before this.

Yup.

He could have been out of the military within weeks of Obama's election, long before he actually took office.

He's gone to Afghanistan before and didn't have a problem with it.

So he either turned coward since his last deployment (unlikely- he's a freakin' military doctor, not Rambo- he isn't exactly going to doing hand to hand fighting with the Taliban) or he's trying to use his position to score political points- and regardless of where you stand politically, there's no room for that kind of bull shit in the military.

He'll probably just get tossed out of the military (hopefully with something less than an honorable discharge), but he probably should end up breaking big rocks into little rocks at Leavenworth.

[libertarian4321]

The wars are completely bogus and are of no purpose other than making military contractors rich.

I agree that the War in Iraq is BS, and while I initially supported the war in Afghanistan, I think it's been badly bungled.

However, each individual soldier does not get to make that call.

That is why it is so important that we elect good civilian leaders, because they do make the call, and soldiers are obligated to follow those orders, even when they disagree with them.

[torchbearer]

http://thestarkperspective.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/obamas-birth-certificate.jpg

Let the issue die, please.

and with photoshop, you can be born in hawaii too.
i'm convinced.

[Theocrat]

and with photoshop, you can be born in hawaii too.
i'm convinced.

What facts support your anaylsis?

[Depressed Liberator]

So much fail in this thread.

[torchbearer]

What facts support your anaylsis?

the digital copy you posted has no signatures, specifically of the doctor of delivery.
who delivered Obama? that is your witness.

otherwise, i can post this digital copy with my name on it.

[Danke]

It says his father's race is African. Rather imprecise.

[Theocrat]

the digital copy you posted has no signatures, specifically of the doctor of delivery.
who delivered Obama? that is your witness.

otherwise, i can post this digital copy with my name on it.

Perhaps the signatures are on the other side. I'd also like to see you duplicate a digital copy with your name on it.

[Danke]

Perhaps the signatures are on the other side. I'd also like to see you duplicate a digital copy with your name on it.

No, they are not, not on this form.

You need to get the original. Usually stored on microfiche at the county in which you you were born.

[torchbearer]

Perhaps the signatures are on the other side. I'd also like to see you duplicate a digital copy with your name on it.

I have a real certificate with signatures on it. i can even tell you who the doctor was, Dr. Carlton of Lecompte, LA.
you can find out a lot of info that proves where i was born, who delivered me- and they even signed it as an affadavit of my birth.
it would require about one days time to round up all the info to prove my birth.
the signatures are not on the other side of that document. that is not the original, nor is it even a scanned copy of an original.

[dannno]

It is not a factor when determining natural born. It is a factor to peoples own fears and distrust with anyone not like themselves which then leads to wild, unproven, baseless myths.

This is the McCarthy type tactics. Was your father a communist? was your great-grandfather a communist? Then YOU are obviously a communist despite any evidence to the contrary.

It is difficult to listen to someone who posts the Certificate of Live Birth when the entire discussion on the show was regarding the irrelevancy of that particular document.

[Bruno]

http://thestarkperspective.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/obamas-birth-certificate.jpg

Let the issue die, please.

Does that reverse image in the bottom/middle of document say 2007?

Who was the doctor? Which hospital?

Still unanswered questions.

[tmosley]

What facts support your anaylsis?

I dunno, lol.

http://www.4freeimagehost.com/uploads/eced25ac20f3.jpg

Took me about 30 seconds in Photoshop. Add your own name if you want. Even you can be president!

[Danke]

Does that reverse image in the bottom/middle of document say 2007?


Laser printers were very popular in 1961.

[Daamien]

I thought we are here to discuss the superiority of our ideas rather than perptuate ad hominem attacks and witch-hunts against our opponents.

[torchbearer]

I thought we are here to discuss the superiority of our ideas rather than perptuate ad hominem attacks and witch-hunts against our opponents.

upholding the constitution is part of being a lover of this republic.
having a dual-citizen sit as president is a bit of a problem.

did you see how the dems freaked out when AZ passed a law to require proof of qualification to be put on the ballot?
what was that all about?

[Daamien]

upholding the constitution is part of being a lover of this republic.
having a dual-citizen sit as president is a bit of a problem.

Upholding the Constitution would suggest that we leave this matter for the courts as an equal branch of government and not to public speculation. If you want a court to review his legitimacy, that's fine. If you want his documents released to the public, that's is an entirely different matter and supports a mobocracy mentality. This is a distraction for us, as we should be focused on fighting the administration and its supporters' ideas and debating them on the issues.

As for the immigration law in Arizona, a person respectful of the Constitutional limits on government and in favor of the protections of individual rights and liberties both enumerated and implied would view the law as a perversion of due process.

[torchbearer]

Upholding the Constitution would suggest that we leave this matter for the courts as an equal branch of government and not to public speculation. If you want a court to review his legitimacy, that's fine. If you want his documents released to the public, that's is an entirely different matter and supports a mobocracy mentality.

As for the immigration law in Arizona, a person respectful of the Constitutional limits on government and in favor of the protections of individual rights and liberties both enumerates and implies would view the law as a perversion of due process.

i'm not talking about the immigration law, i'm talking about a qualification for ballot access law. different laws.
and if the people don't hold their government accountable, we get a government like we have today. is this what your advocating?
the courts won't even hear the case based on standing. everyone in this country has standing when it comes to damages cause by an usurper as president.

[Daamien]

the courts won't even hear the case based on standing. everyone in this country has standing when it comes to damages cause by an usurper as president.

The Colonel may have standing as a result of losing his commission from a court-martial over this. I support the courts investigating such matters of Presidential eligibility, as it is the constitutionally appropriate step to take. I do not support a public witch-hunt mentality being perpetuated on these forums. If you disagree with me, that's fine. There is no right or wrong, it is a matter of opinion regarding the direction of these forums.

[torchbearer]

The Colonel may have standing as a result of losing his commission from a court-martial over this. I support the courts investigating such matters, as it is the constitutionally appropriate step to take. I do not support a public witch-hunt mentality being perpetuated on these forums. If you disagree with me, that's fine. There is no right or wrong, it is a matter of opinion regarding the direction of these forums.

witch hunt? people asking for proof is not a fucking witch hunt.
to get a job waiting tables at applebees i had to produce proof of citizenship.
the fucking president of the US should have to do the same.

the bills he is signing, the money he is funneling is effecting all of us. we deserve to know his eligibility. this isn't because he is black, or because he is a dem. it is because there is reasonable doubt of his eligibility, and when asked to prove it. he lawyers up, restricts all his records and releases a crap copy of a digital form with nothing on it.
wtf?
if you ask the question you are slandered and attacked.

and now, you think there is a witch hunt?
i don't get your logic here.

[Daamien]

Like I said, if you support the Constitution then it is a matter for the courts. An individual's documents are not subject to dissemination amongst the public, even if they are the President's. You can't be for one part of the Constitution (eligibility, which would be decided through the courts as I am saying, not by the public) and overlook other parts of the Constitution (privacy of personal information afforded in the 5th Amendment for example or protection against unlawful searches in the 4th Amendment). You can ask the question, but he is not guilty until proven innocent.

So yes, you are advocating a "fucking witch-hunt" because you personally want to see his documents and don't believe in the courts ability to handle this.

[torchbearer]

Like I said, if you support the Constitution then it is a matter for the courts. An individual's documents are not subject to dissemination amongst the public, even if they are the President's. You can't be for one part of the Constitution (eligibility, which would be decided through the courts as I am saying, not by the public) and overlook other parts of the Constitution (privacy of personal information afforded in the 5th Amendment for example or protection against unlawful searches in the 4th Amendment). You can ask the question, but he is not guilty until proven innocent.

So yes, you are advocating a "fucking witch-hunt" because you personally want to see his documents and don't believe in the courts ability to handle this.

i was taking to task your phrasing of this question as witch-hunt. good way to avoid the subject.
how about this, when you write a post- i just respond with something other than what was in the post.

the courts are not over the jurisdiction of eligibility. the constitution is...
if the courts won't hear the case, there is no remedy besides the second amendment.
if we live in a country where the people can't ask the questions, then we are in deep shit.

[Daamien]

I specifically said that the question can be asked. I also said that the Colonel may have standing (due to losing his commission). You however said:


witch hunt? people asking for proof is not a fucking witch hunt.

To which I discussed how it is up to the courts to ask for, receive, and review proof, not the people. The Constitution gives the courts the power to review documents and hold legal proceedings for civil, criminal, and Constitutional matters. You can ask for proof voluntarily, but to demand it for the public is indeed a witch-hunt.

[torchbearer]

I specifically said that the question can be asked. I also said that the Colonel may have standing (due to losing his commission). You however said:



To which I discussed how it is up to the courts to ask for, receive, and review proof, not the people. The Constitution gives the courts the power to review documents and hold legal proceedings for civil, criminal, and Constitutional matters. You can ask for proof voluntarily, but to demand it for the public is indeed a witch-hunt.

and when the courts refuse to hear the people's complaint, then it is the people's responsibility to act.
the party system we have has allowed the checks and balances of the three branches to be erased.
each branch was to police the other branch's authority/power.
but with parties, all the branches come together to keep the people from interfering with their looting of america.
so, if we get no remedy- as in, the case is never heard, no proof ever put on record, then it is the people who are responsible for changing things.

[BlackTerrel]

As much as I think the whole birther thing just a distraction being used to divide and keep people occupied, if Obama wanted to end the controversy once and for all, he could order the live birth certificate released to the public. It would only take a phone call and it would end all this controversy.

No it wouldn't. The same people would then say it is a forgery or some other such argument.

About the same percentage say he is a closet Muslim. Despite the fact that he got in trouble for attending a "radical Christian Church".

[torchbearer]

No it wouldn't. The same people would then say it is a forgery or some other such argument.

About the same percentage say he is a closet Muslim. Despite the fact that he got in trouble for attending a "radical Christian Church".

don't speak for other people. an original birth certificate would be fine enough with me.
its the fact that he hasn't when he could, the fact that he lawyers up and seals his records when asked...
the fact that his cronies freaked out over arizona's law to require proof of qualification for ballots...
the fact that anyone who ask the question is labeled a birther. a derogative akin to ******. a label used in a negative way to keep others from even considering the question.
all of this behavior is not consistant with someone who has nothing to hide.

[specsaregood]

No it wouldn't. The same people would then say it is a forgery or some other such argument.

Sure, some might, I'd venture that the majority would not. Paperwork like that is pretty easy to authenticate.



About the same percentage say he is a closet Muslim. Despite the fact that he got in trouble for attending a "radical Christian Church".
I hope you aren't implying that just because someone thinks the whole refusing to release hiis original signed birth certificate smells funny that they automatically think he is a muslim, because that isn't true.

Like I said, I think it is a distraction; but I'd still like to see it released. If anything so that people can move on from it. And i think his actions in this regard are disingenuous at best.

[Bruno]

No it wouldn't. The same people would then say it is a forgery or some other such argument.

About the same percentage say he is a closet Muslim. Despite the fact that he got in trouble for attending a "radical Christian Church".

You bring that up every time. It is irrelelvant to the conversation and distracts from the issue.

[WaltM]

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=151377


CNN, one of the mainstream media outlets that have either belittled or ignored the question of Barack Obama's eligibility to be president since before the 2008 election


Why shouldn't they? It's entirely consistent with their lack of interest in the Constitution.




tonight gave the topic a primetime spotlight as Anderson Cooper defended the computer-generated online image of a Certification of Live Birth that lists a 1961 Hawaii birth for the president.


Obama can show he's eligible tomorrow, and this smarty will pull another rabbit out of his hat. Excuses for refusing service comes in all forms. Birth certificate is hardly a good one.

[Fredom101]

I for one CAN'T WAIT for Obama to be impeached over this, for I was always hoping for JOE BIDEN anyway! Lesser of two evils! And, even if Biden isn't eligible, Nancy Pelosi would make a FINE president!

[spaceship_earth]

It is not a factor when determining natural born. It is a factor to peoples own fears and distrust with anyone not like themselves which then leads to wild, unproven, baseless myths.

This is the McCarthy type tactics. Was your father a communist? was your great-grandfather a communist? Then YOU are obviously a communist despite any evidence to the contrary.


McCarthy was vindicated when the Venona intercepts were released. Our government was crawling with commies, and probably still is.

[WaltM]

the digital copy you posted has no signatures, specifically of the doctor of delivery.
who delivered Obama? that is your witness.

otherwise, i can post this digital copy with my name on it.

the fact you can generate a Kenya certificate tells me making a Hawaiian one is a no-brainer
http://kenyanbirthcertificategenerator.com/


and the fact "birthers" first tried to argue Obama was born in Hawaii, and it's not legally a State, means they didn't have enough reason to doubt Hawaii as his birth place was true to begin with.

[WaltM]

Let the issue die, please.

I let the issue die, but not because he was able to show this.

[chadhb]

No it wouldn't. The same people would then say it is a forgery or some other such argument.

About the same percentage say he is a closet Muslim. Despite the fact that he got in trouble for attending a "radical Christian Church".

That makes zero sense, in fact all americans should start using such logic in their daily lives. why should anyone have to prove anything then? In fact if i'm ever asked to show my BC, i'll be bringing my birth newspaper clipping.

[WaltM]

That makes zero sense, in fact all americans should start using such logic in their daily lives. why should anyone have to prove anything then? In fact if i'm ever asked to show my BC, i'll be bringing my birth newspaper clipping.

you're right, nobody should have to prove they are innocent.

and the US Constitution has been violated enough times, focusing on Obama's birthplace is quite an unfair bias.

[tremendoustie]

I wouldn't be shocked to find out he really isn't a native of the U.S, but I really don't care. He's a murdering, thieving scumbag, same as the man before. That seems to be rather more important than which side of what line he was born on ...

[Bman]

Here's one for the birther crowd. Have they ever given out the name of the Doctor who delivered Zero.

[WaltM]

I wouldn't be shocked to find out he really isn't a native of the U.S, but I really don't care. He's a murdering, thieving scumbag, same as the man before. That seems to be rather more important than which side of what line he was born on ...

that's exactly the point, distraction.

[libertarian4321]

I for one CAN'T WAIT for Obama to be impeached over this, for I was always hoping for JOE BIDEN anyway! Lesser of two evils! And, even if Biden isn't eligible, Nancy Pelosi would make a FINE president!

President Pelosi?

Now that is a frightening prospect.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

I specifically said that the question can be asked. I also said that the Colonel may have standing (due to losing his commission). You however said:

To which I discussed how it is up to the courts to ask for, receive, and review proof, not the people. The Constitution gives the courts the power to review documents and hold legal proceedings for civil, criminal, and Constitutional matters. You can ask for proof voluntarily, but to demand it for the public is indeed a witch-hunt.

I disagree with you and I have no confidence in the courts. The people in the court system are just as indoctrinated as everyone else. Courts have shot down standing for people seeking to hold their boards of election accountable for placing someone on the ballot on may not be qualified.

I disagree with your opinion the public does not have a right to know whether a public official meets the eligibility requirements of the office. Maybe all court records should be expunged immediately regardless of disposition.

I disagree with your assessment of a witch hunt. This matter is in the court of public opinion and it is important to convey a constitutional interpretation of the natural born clause which is about allegiance not just where someone is born. It is even more important when the public is for the most part ignorant on the constitution.


Here is my take on the LTC's actions.

The LTC should be HAMMERED-

Everyone who has ever served in the military knows you are only obligated to follow lawful orders.

If it is just following orders why the hell did the Nuremburg trials occur?

Get off of the one must always follow orders bullshit because that will not be a get out of jail free card for you if your ass is ever drug into an international court.

[chadhb]

that's exactly the point, distraction.

It is not a distraction, let the people decide, let them see for themselves how the media/ goverment manipulates them. Let the traitors be exposed, Barry is just the side show to all this.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

UNITED STATES, Appellee v WILLIAM L. CALLEY, JR., First Lieutenant, U.S. Army, Appellant


Captain Medina testified that he instructed his tropps that they were to destroy My Lai 4 by "burning the hootches, to kill the livestock, to close the wells and to destroy the food crops." Asked if women and children were to be killed, Medina said he replied in the negative, adding that, "You must use common sense. If they have a weapon and are trying to engage you, then you can shoot back, but you must use common sense." However, Lieutenant Calley testified that Captain Medina informed the tropps they were to kill every living thing -- men, women, children, and animals -- and under no circumstances were they to leave any Vietnamese behind them as they passed through the villages enroute to their final objective. Other witnesses gave more or less support to both versions of the briefing.

....
The United States Supreme Court has pointed out that "[t]he rule that 'ignorance of the law will not excuse' [a positive act that constitutes a crime] . . . is deep in our law."

Consequently, the decision of the Court of Military Review is affirmed.


Guilty... of murder.

Let's be real here. Anyone who has been in the military knows how the order went down.... kill the bastards.

Where is the video that was leaked recently to illustrate?

[silus]

I have no problem with people who choose to take up this cause, I just think they are fucking stupid for doing it on a forum dedicated to echoing Ron Paul's voice. Why don't we just stick to emphasizing what he does? Sometimes I think people are more interested in jumping on a new, less popular topic just so their opinion will seem more significant. Its sad and fucking pathetic.

It does not make sense considering the issues we face are at the heart of governance, and will not be resolved with a god damn birth certificate. Which is exactly why Ron Paul is and has continued to repeat the same message for 30+ years, focusing on real change. Not some BS side show act that changes every 4 years and does more to distract from what we really want.

Some people make this shit so much harder than it really is.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

I have no problem with people who choose to take up this cause, I just think they are fucking stupid for doing it on a forum dedicated to echoing Ron Paul's voice.

Are you sure that landed in the right thread?

Elena Kagan is Keven James in Drag
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=243762&page=2

[idirtify]

I doubt this has ever been done in history. Why start now?

Because there are serious questions that have legitimate bases – which were never present with previous presidents.



Did you personally view the original copy of any other president's birth certificate?

It was never an issue.



Obama has done more than any previous president by posting that image online.

Because it was never an issue before.



This myth is perpetuated by the other myths that he is muslim and shouldn't be trusted...


Please…stop trying to change the debate. BTW if it’s really a “myth”, the proof is one document away.

Here’s a question for you: Why ask these questions when you obviously know the answers?

[idirtify]

Wow, there are so many weak arguments against the birthers here, I can’t begin to get to them all. It seems that when it comes to this particular issue, many LFers completely abandon their principles.

All in all, Anderson Cooper’s behavior tonight should indicate to any semi-intelligent person that something is definitely up. It’s one of the best reasons I have seen so far to side with the birthers (not to mention the excellent bases of his guests).

[BlackTerrel]

don't speak for other people. an original birth certificate would be fine enough with me.
its the fact that he hasn't when he could, the fact that he lawyers up and seals his records when asked...
the fact that his cronies freaked out over arizona's law to require proof of qualification for ballots...
the fact that anyone who ask the question is labeled a birther. a derogative akin to ******. a label used in a negative way to keep others from even considering the question.
all of this behavior is not consistant with someone who has nothing to hide.

Torch you're a level headed guy. Come on seriously?

You think "birther" is as bad as the N word?

1. I don't even think birther is offensive. It's just a term to describe people who believe that way. What else would you call them?

2. Let's look at US history. When birthers start being lynched for looking at non-birthers the wrong way we'll have a discussion.


I hope you aren't implying that just because someone thinks the whole refusing to release hiis original signed birth certificate smells funny that they automatically think he is a muslim, because that isn't true.


You bring that up every time. It is irrelelvant to the conversation and distracts from the issue.

Here's the relevance. People who believe in a conspiracy will never accept "evidence" contrary to that conspiracy because that evidence is always part of the conspiracy. Nothing Obama will do will shift the percentage of people who believe he was born in Kenya, ditto for those who believe he is a Muslim. So why should he engage them?

[WaltM]

Wow, there are so many weak arguments against the birthers here, I can’t begin to get to them all.


The birther argument is based on ignorance.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence to them.





It seems that when it comes to this particular issue, many LFers completely abandon their principles.

All in all, Anderson Cooper’s behavior tonight should indicate to any semi-intelligent person that something is definitely up. It’s one of the best reasons I have seen so far to side with the birthers (not to mention the excellent bases of his guests).

so if Anderson Cooper mocks communists & chemtrailers, you'll side with them too?

[WaltM]

Torch you're a level headed guy. Come on seriously?

You think "birther" is as bad as the N word?

1. I don't even think birther is offensive. It's just a term to describe people who believe that way. What else would you call them?


I don't think retard is offensive, people are what they are, they can choose how to feel about it themselves, euphemisms don't do s***




2. Let's look at US history. When birthers start being lynched for looking at non-birthers the wrong way we'll have a discussion.

Let's hope by the time they come for you, you won't be alone and wonder why nobody's standing up for you.

[WaltM]

It is not a distraction, let the people decide


They already have, Obama got elected.




, let them see for themselves how the media/ goverment manipulates them.


ok?



Let the traitors be exposed, Barry is just the side show to all this.

who's the traitor??

[silus]

Are you sure that landed in the right thread?

Elena Kagan is Keven James in Drag
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=243762&page=2
Uh, yea. Are you trying to intimidate me with photos of Elena Kagan? My opinion still stands.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Here's the relevance. People who believe in a conspiracy will never accept "evidence" contrary to that conspiracy because that evidence is always part of the conspiracy. Nothing Obama will do will shift the percentage of people who believe he was born in Kenya, ditto for those who believe he is a Muslim. So why should he engage them?

He should fear the people holding him accountable to the constitution via Congress by way of impeachment or via the courts by way of committing fraud where ignorance of the law is no excuse.

The reason people question Obama is because of REASONABLE SUSPICION. You are right about the birth certificate because to satisfy the constitution, Obama not only needs to cough up his own birth records, he needs to demonstrate both parents are citizens. It's all about allegiance and this was the test built into the Constitution for the office of President by it's authors. If you don't like it... get an Amendment.

Hell, Arizona does not honor papers from Hawaii because of their policies to establish residency does not jive with federal immigration code. You act like the burden of proof is on the people to prove Obama is not a natural born citizen. All that is required of the people is PROBABLE CAUSE! Show me a person who reasonably believes Obama was born in Hawaii and both parents we're citizens at the time. Also show me the evidence they used to reach those conclusions.

[libertarian4321]

The reason people question Obama is because of REASONABLE SUSPICION. You are right about the birth certificate because to satisfy the constitution, Obama not only needs to cough up his own birth records, he needs to demonstrate both parents are citizens. It's all about allegiance and this was the test built into the Constitution for the office of President by it's authors. If you don't like it... get an Amendment.



Actually, there is a system for questioning the eligibility of a Presidential candidate. The John Birch Society (hardly Obama loving liberals) published a lengthy account of when his credentials could have been demanded- the last time was at the counting of electoral votes:

http://www.jbs.org/us-constitution-blog/4196-berg-v-obama-v-reality

Go ahead, read it- it's pretty interesting.

No one challenged him. Therefore, Obama is under no Constitutional obligation to provide proof of anything at this point.

BTW, I see that the Army doctor has been brought up on formal UCMJ charges (Article 87) for his failure to perform his duty. Based on his conduct, he could easily be brought up on additional charges, including Article 88.

He could get 2 years in Leavenworth, loss of pay and benefits, and a dishonorable discharge- he'd also not get to retire.

Looks like LTC Showboat is about to find out that the Army doesn't fuck around when it comes to people who refuse to obey orders.

[Fredom101]

Most laws are ridiculous anyway. Why does anyone care about this law making it so the president has to be born in the U.S.? Who cares? This plot of land is no "better" than other plots of land.

Can't wait for Mr. Biden to take office..

[Bruno]

Most laws are ridiculous anyway. Why does anyone care about this law making it so the president has to be born in the U.S.? Who cares? This plot of land is no "better" than other plots of land.

Can't wait for Mr. Biden to take office..

Welcome to the Ron Paul forums??? :confused: :D

[tremendoustie]

Most laws are ridiculous anyway. Why does anyone care about this law making it so the president has to be born in the U.S.? Who cares? This plot of land is no "better" than other plots of land.


+1





Tongue firmly in cheek, I hope ;).

[lynnf]

Most laws are ridiculous anyway. Why does anyone care about this law making it so the president has to be born in the U.S.? Who cares? This plot of land is no "better" than other plots of land.

Can't wait for Mr. Biden to take office..



sounds like an anarchist to me..

lynn

[Fredom101]

+1




Tongue firmly in cheek, I hope ;).[/QUOTE]

Yes tongue firmly in cheek! :cool:
My point is that if we spend tons of energy and effort on the birth thing, we will end up with Joe Biden as president and will have gained nothing.

[Fredom101]

sounds like an anarchist to me..

lynn

And your point would be?
Do you realize that anarchy means "no ruler", in other words, not wanting to force leaders on other people? I'm not sure what the problem is with that.

[hillertexas]

I doubt this has ever been done in history. Why start now? Did you personally view the original copy of any other president's birth certificate? Obama has done more than any previous president by posting that image online.

This myth is perpetuated by the other myths that he is muslim and shouldn't be trusted...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9934044/John-McCain-Birth-Certificate

[hillertexas]

Here's one for the birther crowd. Have they ever given out the name of the Doctor who delivered Zero.

Who is "Zero"?

[JK/SEA]

Tongue firmly in cheek, I hope ;).

Yes tongue firmly in cheek! :cool:
My point is that if we spend tons of energy and effort on the birth thing, we will end up with Joe Biden as president and will have gained nothing.[/QUOTE]

Biden would assume the Presidential position if Obama gets un-seated? you assume too much.

Pelosi would get the seat, as Obama's appointments would be invalidated, along with all his signatures on bills he signed.

A special election would need to be held.

My opinion is final....:p

[Fredom101]

Yes tongue firmly in cheek! :cool:
My point is that if we spend tons of energy and effort on the birth thing, we will end up with Joe Biden as president and will have gained nothing.

Biden would assume the Presidential position if Obama gets un-seated? you assume too much.

Pelosi would get the seat, as Obama's appointments would be invalidated, along with all his signatures on bills he signed.

A special election would need to be held.

My opinion is final....:p[/QUOTE]

Well then let's get er done and impeach Obama!
I can't imagine feeling more free than having President Pelosi in office. :rolleyes:


All kidding aside, I think going through an impeachment like this would be hurtful to the cause of liberty. Any kind of "special election" wouldn't change a damn thing. If Obama was impeached on actual meaningful reasons, like war crimes and illegal bailouts, then we'd have to go a different direction in terms of these issues.

But where he was born?

We could have someone born right here in the U.S. who believes in 100% dictatorial communism, and yes, he/she could get elected by "popular" vote easily.

Hitler was elected to office by a majority.

We need to win the battle of ideas, not technicalities.

[Bruno]

Well then let's get er done and impeach Obama!
I can't imagine feeling more free than having President Pelosi in office. :rolleyes:


All kidding aside, I think going through an impeachment like this would be hurtful to the cause of liberty. Any kind of "special election" wouldn't change a damn thing. If Obama was impeached on actual meaningful reasons, like war crimes and illegal bailouts, then we'd have to go a different direction in terms of these issues.

But where he was born?

We could have someone born right here in the U.S. who believes in 100% dictatorial communism, and yes, he/she could get elected by "popular" vote easily.

Hitler was elected to office by a majority.

We need to win the battle of ideas, not technicalities.


One of the ideas we are advocating happens to be following the Constitution, which wasn't done if Obama was not a natural born citizen. ;)

[Fredom101]

One of the ideas we are advocating happens to be following the Constitution, which wasn't done if Obama was not a natural born citizen. ;)

This is probably the least important way the constitution hasn't been followed. It's a dead document. It's like impeaching clinton over a blow job when he's responsible for the deaths of 100's of thousands of Iraqi's. :rolleyes:

[torchbearer]

This is probably the least important way the constitution hasn't been followed. It's a dead document. It's like impeaching clinton over a blow job when he's responsible for the deaths of 100's of thousands of Iraqi's. :rolleyes:

are you familiar with our mission statement?
perhaps you should go back to mises or freesteader. we've asked them nicely not to troll this site.

[Bruno]

This is probably the least important way the constitution hasn't been followed. It's a dead document. It's like impeaching clinton over a blow job when he's responsible for the deaths of 100's of thousands of Iraqi's. :rolleyes:

Why does Al Capone's arrest come to mind.... ;)

[JK/SEA]

Pelosi as President would not signify much. If Obama was REMOVED, the country would be run by committee until the special election was over.

The Constitution is pretty clear on this, and if we as a country, and as a people don't stand on principal over this, then we may as well put the Constitution in a briefcase, attach it to a cinder block, and find the deepest part of the ocean and let it sink to the bottom, and roll over.

The U.S. Constitution needs to be defended by someone. I guess you can put me on that list of defenders.

How many people have died fighting for that document?..anyone? and does anyone really care?

[Fredom101]

are you familiar with our mission statement?
perhaps you should go back to mises or freesteader. we've asked them nicely not to troll this site.

I've never been to those sites.
I do not think the purpose of this site has anything to do with going after impeachment of Obama for not being born here. Let's discuss this topic rather than make personal accusations or call names (like troll).

I think the bond here between posters is on the ideas of liberty. If you think we should try to take down Obama on a technicality, and I do not, we are not differing on fundamentals. Let's stick with a healthy spirited debate please and not stray from what our mutual core values (liberty) are.

[Fredom101]

ecial election was over.

we may as well put the Constitution in a briefcase, attach it to a cinder block, and find the deepest part of the ocean and let it sink to the bottom, and roll over.




I thought Bush already did this? :confused:

[erowe1]

Demanding Obama's birth certificate is not defending the Constitution. The Constitution makes no mention of birth certificates. Someone could conceivably never have gotten any birth certificate at all and still meet the constitutional eligibility requirements for President. If anybody wants to prove that Obama is not eligible, then they'll have to prove he's not a natural born citizen. So far nobody has succeeded at that.

[erowe1]

I thought Bush already did this? :confused:

Bush?

How about Washington?

[Jaykzo]

Stuff like this makes me ashamed to call myself a supporter of Ron Paul.

There are way more serious problems that need to be addressed, and stuff like this only distracts us and makes us look like IDIOTS and PARANOID MORONS.

For starters, you all hopefully know that the primary problem facing our country involves the collusion between our politicians and the special interests of the world, most of which is facilitated by our Federal Reserve.
This problem is so massive and needs so much tending to, that spending your time complaining about a god damn BIRTH CERTIFICATE is like worrying about your hair when you're out on battlefield in the middle of a war.

[torchbearer]

I've never been to those sites.
I do not think the purpose of this site has anything to do with going after impeachment of Obama for not being born here. Let's discuss this topic rather than make personal accusations or call names (like troll).

I think the bond here between posters is on the ideas of liberty. If you think we should try to take down Obama on a technicality, and I do not, we are not differing on fundamentals. Let's stick with a healthy spirited debate please and not stray from what our mutual core values (liberty) are.

this mission statement concerns the constitution and upholding it.
you continually call it dead and useless. you are not here for the same purpose that this site is created for.
there is a place for you on the web, it is with the anarchs who want no government.

[erowe1]

If Obama was REMOVED, the country would be run by committee until the special election was over.

The Constitution is pretty clear on this

Where is the Constitution clear on that? I don't see it either in Article II, Section 1, or in the 25th Amendment. Having the entire executive branch run by a committee sounds pretty strange to me.

[Fredom101]

you continually call it dead and useless

I said it was dead once. It is dead. I'm not opposed to the ideas in the constitution, but it has failed to protect us. Can we agree on that at least?
I don't see why you are attacking me.

I'd much rather debate the ideas rather than engage in these kinds of squabbles. Call me whatever you want but impeaching Obama is not something I believe will move the torch of liberty forward.

[torchbearer]

Stuff like this makes me ashamed to call myself a supporter of Ron Paul.

There are way more serious problems that need to be addressed, and stuff like this only distracts us and makes us look like IDIOTS and PARANOID MORONS.

For starters, you all hopefully know that the primary problem facing our country involves the collusion between our politicians and the special interests of the world, most of which is facilitated by our Federal Reserve.
This problem is so massive and needs so much tending to, that spending your time complaining about a god damn BIRTH CERTIFICATE is like worrying about your hair when you're out on battlefield in the middle of a war.

how about you stop wasting your time on such a "useless" topic.

[torchbearer]

I said it was dead once. It is dead. I'm not opposed to the ideas in the constitution, but it has failed to protect us. Can we agree on that at least?
I don't see why you are attacking me.

I'd much rather debate the ideas rather than engage in these kinds of squabbles. Call me whatever you want but impeaching Obama is not something I believe will move the torch of liberty forward.

i don't really care if Obama is the president. the country deserves what they vote for- but if he can't provide proof of qualification, there is a problem.
a minor one, but to ignore it is a mistake.

[Fredom101]

delete

[hillertexas]

Well, I could say the same thing to you.

I don't think Torch was talking to you...he was talking to Jaykzo.

And seriously...who is Zero? (see post #98) It's driving me crazy :)

[Fredom101]

i don't really care if Obama is the president. the country deserves what they vote for- but if he can't provide proof of qualification, there is a problem.
a minor one, but to ignore it is a mistake.

But you and I didn't vote for Obama. WE don't deserve it, and the "country" cannot vote, only individuals can. Some individuals (only around 19-20% of the population) voted for Obama.

I'm not trying to be nit-picky but terms are important here. You're right it could be a problem, but don't you think there are much larger problems than whether he was born here or not?

[Fredom101]

I don't think Torch was talking to you...he was talking to Jaykzo.

And seriously...who is Zero? It's driving me crazy :)

Thanks I fixed it :o

[torchbearer]

Well, I could say the same thing to you.

what i find hyprocitical, are people who think this is a waste of time, so they take the time to participate in their percieved waste of time.
if you think its a waste of time, why are you wasting your time- is the point of my previous post.
let's be consistent.

[torchbearer]

But you and I didn't vote for Obama. WE don't deserve it, and the "country" cannot vote, only individuals can. Some individuals (only around 19-20% of the population) voted for Obama.

I'm not trying to be nit-picky but terms are important here. You're right it could be a problem, but don't you think there are much larger problems than whether he was born here or not?

the problem isn't even in where he is born, it is the fact that dual-citizens were not to hold the office of president because they hold loyalty to another state also.
Obama was born a dual-citizen regardless of where he was born.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Actually, there is a system for questioning the eligibility of a Presidential candidate. The John Birch Society (hardly Obama loving liberals) published a lengthy account of when his credentials could have been demanded- the last time was at the counting of electoral votes:

http://www.jbs.org/us-constitution-blog/4196-berg-v-obama-v-reality

Go ahead, read it- it's pretty interesting.

No one challenged him. Therefore, Obama is under no Constitutional obligation to provide proof of anything at this point.

BTW, I see that the Army doctor has been brought up on formal UCMJ charges (Article 87) for his failure to perform his duty. Based on his conduct, he could easily be brought up on additional charges, including Article 88.

He could get 2 years in Leavenworth, loss of pay and benefits, and a dishonorable discharge- he'd also not get to retire.

Looks like LTC Showboat is about to find out that the Army doesn't fuck around when it comes to people who refuse to obey orders.

It's an old article and I have already read it. The thing that I find absolutely ridiculous about the courts rejecting standing is this...

All of the hypocrites that like the government's monopoly on justice and afraid of a little competition in justice have constantly used this term:

FRAUD

If fraud has no standing to be heard in the monopoly justice system it must not be a good system. If a constitutional coalition is not going to consistently support the constitution, libertarians might be wasting there time supporting this monopoly on justice farce and ought to just go on there merry way advocating a better system and competition in justice and let all of the Republicans rot in the GOP with the RHINO's



Stuff like this makes me ashamed to call myself a supporter of Ron Paul.

There are way more serious problems that need to be addressed, and stuff like this only distracts us and makes us look like IDIOTS and PARANOID MORONS.

For starters, you all hopefully know that the primary problem facing our country involves the collusion between our politicians and the special interests of the world, most of which is facilitated by our Federal Reserve.
This problem is so massive and needs so much tending to, that spending your time complaining about a god damn BIRTH CERTIFICATE is like worrying about your hair when you're out on battlefield in the middle of a war.

I am tired of image police. If you want to build a coalition of libertarians and republicans around the constitution it's an all or nothing proposition.

Money is a core issue but the only reason these other issues get any play is because people only want to support the constitutional when it suits them.

A constitutional coalition is very much about consistency advocating the document. Such a coalition ought to support the constitution in it's entirety or not at all.

[Fredom101]

the problem isn't even in where he is born, it is the fact that dual-citizens were not to hold the office of president because they hold loyalty to another state also.
Obama was born a dual-citizen regardless of where he was born.

Fair enough and perhaps you are 100% correct on the issue, but I'm asking a deeper question: Is this the best time spent to move the ball of liberty forward? Sure, it could be an issue, but in the grand scheme of issues, isn't it better that we all spend time on much bigger, more important issues like the war, income tax, war on drugs, etc.?

[torchbearer]

Fair enough and perhaps you are 100% correct on the issue, but I'm asking a deeper question: Is this the best time spent to move the ball of liberty forward? Sure, it could be an issue, but in the grand scheme of issues, isn't it better that we all spend time on much bigger, more important issues like the war, income tax, war on drugs, etc.?

the only person draggin out the issue is the president. should he save us the time and produce the documents people want?
then he can shut everyone up and we move on?

[Fredom101]

What I'm getting it is the end result of our efforts.
If we end the war we save millions of lives.
If we end the war on drugs we save millions of lives.
If we end the income tax we save billions of OUR money.

If we impeach Obama, Washington D.C. doesn't blink an eye and will simply install the next puppet, and they will have the propaganda to back up whatever move they make.

[torchbearer]

What I'm getting it is the end result of our efforts.
If we end the war we save millions of lives.
If we end the war on drugs we save millions of lives.
If we end the income tax we save billions of OUR money.

If we impeach Obama, Washington D.C. doesn't blink an eye and will simply install the next puppet, and they will have the propaganda to back up whatever move they make.

nothing we can do right now can just end the wars.
talking about this issue doesn't prevent me from doing any of my usually activist activities.
you'd have a point if this issue actually consumed all my time.

[Fredom101]

nothing we can do right now can just end the wars.
talking about this issue doesn't prevent me from doing any of my usually activist activities.
you'd have a point if this issue actually consumed all my time.

Ok but even if it's consuming 30 minutes of your day, we all only have so much time to devote to activism.
And, I could also say there's nothing we can do prove Obama wasn't born here.
Just like 9/11. Clearly there was government involvement but making that a cornerstone issue does nothing for freedom. 20 years from now we will likely get a little more truth about 9/11 & Obama's birth but I guarantee you no one will care.

[Bruno]

Ok but even if it's consuming 30 minutes of your day, we all only have so much time to devote to activism.
And, I could also say there's nothing we can do prove Obama wasn't born here.
Just like 9/11. Clearly there was government involvement but making that a cornerstone issue does nothing for freedom. 20 years from now we will likely get a little more truth about 9/11 & Obama's birth but I guarantee you no one will care.

well, then move along to another thread/topic/mission/action item/etc.

You're wasting your time...

[libertarian4321]

the only person draggin out the issue is the president. should he save us the time and produce the documents people want?


Obama has no interest in shutting down the birthers.

To most Americans, the birthers look like unreasonable extremist partisan nut jobs.

It is in Obama's best interest to make the opposition look like a bunch of lunatics, and the birthers fit the bill perfectly.

If attention is focused on the rantings of the birthers, rather than legislation Obama pushes through the Dem controlled Congress, Obama wins.

[torchbearer]

Obama has no interest in shutting down the birthers.

To most Americans, the birthers look like unreasonable extremist partisan nut jobs.

It is in Obama's best interest to make the opposition look like a bunch of lunatics, and the birthers fit the bill perfectly.

If attention is focused on the rantings of the birthers, rather than legislation Obama pushes through the Dem controlled Congress, Obama wins.

yes, just as i stated earlier, the birther deragotive is used to silence opposition.
if the AZ bill becomes law, I'd like to see if Obama qualifies in that state in 2012.
see, to address this issue now can prevent usurpers from taking office in the future.
that is a very important benefit.

[JK/SEA]

Where is the Constitution clear on that? I don't see it either in Article II, Section 1, or in the 25th Amendment. Having the entire executive branch run by a committee sounds pretty strange to me.

You have it backwards. Article one section 2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen_of_the_United_States

As to the committe idea. I'm fairly certain thats what would happen behind closed doors. My 2 cents.

[WaltM]

Stuff like this makes me ashamed to call myself a supporter of Ron Paul.

There are way more serious problems that need to be addressed, and stuff like this only distracts us and makes us look like IDIOTS and PARANOID MORONS.

For starters, you all hopefully know that the primary problem facing our country involves the collusion between our politicians and the special interests of the world, most of which is facilitated by our Federal Reserve.
This problem is so massive and needs so much tending to, that spending your time complaining about a god damn BIRTH CERTIFICATE is like worrying about your hair when you're out on battlefield in the middle of a war.

+1

[JK/SEA]

+1

I don't know about you, but i can deal with many issues. Maybe not all at once, but it can be done if you manage your time.

Agreed?

[Bruno]

+1

Don't click on these threads then. :confused:

Or when someone says, "Don't all Ron Paul supporters believe that Obama wasn't born in the U.S. (never heard anyone say that, but...)", then it is your job to edumacate them otherwise.

[lynnf]

Stuff like this makes me ashamed to call myself a supporter of Ron Paul.

There are way more serious problems that need to be addressed, and stuff like this only distracts us and makes us look like IDIOTS and PARANOID MORONS.

For starters, you all hopefully know that the primary problem facing our country involves the collusion between our politicians and the special interests of the world, most of which is facilitated by our Federal Reserve.
This problem is so massive and needs so much tending to, that spending your time complaining about a god damn BIRTH CERTIFICATE is like worrying about your hair when you're out on battlefield in the middle of a war.


I call BS on this what you say.

And what if that "damn" BIRTH CERTIFICATE brings down one of their own,
the chosen of the politicians and special interests? anything that gets us to that goal (within reason) is golden.

you know, in the Watergate scandal days, many of us didn't think that Nixon would go, many thought he would declare martial law or there would be a military coup. but those things didn't happen and the unexpected resignation did happen!
and if we hadn't kept after him, it wouldn't have happened. so we need to press on and those that try to dissuade from that are liable to suspicion as being trolls!
as torch pointed out earlier, if this effort is such a waste of time, why are you wasting your time arguing as you are? go do as you preach and work on what you think is important -- and leave us alone until you realize that we are right!

lynn

[Stary Hickory]

I call BS on this what you say.

And what if that "damn" BIRTH CERTIFICATE brings down one of their own,
the chosen of the politicians and special interests? anything that gets us to that goal (within reason) is golden.

you know, in the Watergate scandal days, many of us didn't think that Nixon would go, many thought he would declare martial law or there would be a military coup. but those things didn't happen and the unexpected resignation did happen!
and if we hadn't kept after him, it wouldn't have happened. so we need to press on and those that try to dissuade from that are liable to suspicion as being trolls!
as torch pointed out earlier, if ithis effort is such a waste of time, why are you wasting your time arguing as you are? go do as you preach and work on what you think is important -- and leave us alone until you realize that we are right!

lynn

I agree I tire of people who tell you what you should or should not be concerned with. People who only obstruct usually have an agenda. There is a lot of stuff I don't really get overly excited about on these boards, I tend to just stay out of those threads.

[Fredom101]

I agree I tire of people who tell you what you should or should not be concerned with. People who only obstruct usually have an agenda. There is a lot of stuff I don't really get overly excited about on these boards, I tend to just stay out of those threads.

You're saying people here shouldn't be concerned about what others are concerned about. But aren't you doing just that? :confused:

[idirtify]

The birther argument is based on ignorance.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence to them.

An argument against a lack of a politician’s qualifying documentation is no more an “argument based on ignorance” than an argument against a police officer searching without a warrant. There are certain qualifications government officials must meet in order to hold positions of power. Arguing against holding such positions without proving that they have complied with standard requirements is far from an “argument based on ignorance”.

You have it backwards. This case does not lack evidence. The missing documentation IS the evidence (of the lack of proper qualification/compliance). If Obama provided the proper documentation, there would be no evidence. Searching without a warrant is (evidence of) a crime - unless you don’t think government should be held to standard constitutional compliance.





so if Anderson Cooper mocks communists & chemtrailers, you'll side with them too?



If he acted like that, and his guests made as many good points, I would definitely be encouraged to look into it.

[erowe1]

You have it backwards. Article one section 2.


No, I definitely meant Article II, Section 1.

[chadhb]

Let's not forget, that people questioned GWB past when it came to him serving in the Texas National Guard. McAmnesty went to court to prove his citizenship. People had concerns about Clintons time in Communist Russia. Barry's past is a disater for America.


Now i'm curious if Mexican Anchor babies, qualify for POTUS.

[chadhb]

I for one CAN'T WAIT for Obama to be impeached over this, for I was always hoping for JOE BIDEN anyway! Lesser of two evils! And, even if Biden isn't eligible, Nancy Pelosi would make a FINE president!

Pelosi was charged with vetting Barry, there will be a public hanging for her.

[spudea]

This thread needs to die so I propose everyone watch this video instead of commenting

YouTube - David Hasselhoff - Jump In My Car (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm7jEA3frY4)

[chadhb]

I agree I tire of people who tell you what you should or should not be concerned with. People who only obstruct usually have an agenda. There is a lot of stuff I don't really get overly excited about on these boards, I tend to just stay out of those threads.

I agree, misinformation is the enemies greatest weapon. The MSM is completely manipulated/controlled, do you think the tptb will sit idle by while we have meaningfull dialog here, hell no!

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Need something more entertaining than the video above in this thread:

YouTube - Cop Pulls Over A Van Full of Illegals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_wglVv-7Qo&feature=related)

YouTube - Van Flips and 28 Illegal Immigrants Jump Out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctrLrhrXB1M)

[Bman]

Who is "Zero"?

http://xomba.com/files/images/Obama%20Logo.jpg

You don't see it?

[idirtify]

This thread needs to die so I propose everyone watch this video instead of commenting


Saying a thread needs to end is one of the most common tactics used by participants who can’t defend their positions better than their opponents. Analogous to tossing the board instead of letting an opponent win at chess.

[idirtify]

To the antibirthers on LF:

Since when are you opposed to undermining the authority of a corrupt authoritarian?
Since when do you decline the rare opportunity to refute the jurisdiction of a powerful lawmaker?
Since when are you against exposing a politician’s lack of credentials?
Since when do you help a politician hide his crime?
Since when do you argue against exposing political corruption?
Since when do you demonstrate a two-tiered system of accountability; one for most politicians, and another for the most powerful politician?
Since when do you abandon your most fundamental principles for upholding individual liberty?

[erowe1]

To the antibirthers on LF:

Since when are you opposed to undermining the authority of a corrupt authoritarian?
Since when do you decline the rare opportunity to refute the jurisdiction of a powerful lawmaker?
Since when are you against exposing a politician’s lack of credentials?
Since when do you help a politician hide his crime?
Since when do you argue against exposing political corruption?
Since when do you demonstrate a two-tiered system of accountability; one for most politicians, and another for the most powerful politician?
Since when do you abandon your most fundamental principles for upholding individual liberty?

Demanding that Obama show us his birth certificate doesn't accomplish any of those things, as has been demonstrated by the past 2 years of people trying.

[WaltM]

An argument against a lack of a politician’s qualifying documentation is no more an “argument based on ignorance” than an argument against a police officer searching without a warrant.


Bad analogy, because a warrant is to be present during, and after the search, and has to be recently issued.





There are certain qualifications government officials must meet in order to hold positions of power. Arguing against holding such positions without proving that they have complied with standard requirements is far from an “argument based on ignorance”.


Of which, there's reason to believe (not direct evidence) that Obama was born of an American mother, either in the US, or raised in the US shortly after.




You have it backwards. This case does not lack evidence. The missing documentation IS the evidence (of the lack of proper qualification/compliance).


So if you ask that Obama show his 50 year old birth certificate, logically, every American citizen or immigrant has to show his papers?



If Obama provided the proper documentation, there would be no evidence. Searching without a warrant is (evidence of) a crime - unless you don’t think government should be held to standard constitutional compliance.


That is correct, I don't believe the government should be held to the standard constitutional compliance, I find it quite insulting that people think it's the first time our Constitution is violated.




If he acted like that, and his guests made as many good points, I would definitely be encouraged to look into it.

So if your only copy of birth certificate was lost, you'd be ineligible, correct?

[WaltM]

To the antibirthers on LF:

Since when are you opposed to undermining the authority of a corrupt authoritarian?


I'm not, but this ain't one of the ways.




Since when do you decline the rare opportunity to refute the jurisdiction of a powerful lawmaker?


I can refute anybody any time, who says I need to be reasonable?



Since when are you against exposing a politician’s lack of credentials?


Never, and I got better ones that where he was born.



Since when do you help a politician hide his crime?


I don't consider this a crime, but I'll help politicians hide, ignore and neglect crimes if the outcome is a good cause.



Since when do you argue against exposing political corruption?


Whenever I find it irrelevant.



Since when do you demonstrate a two-tiered system of accountability; one for most politicians, and another for the most powerful politician?


Whenever it's relevant and beneficial, and vice versa.



Since when do you abandon your most fundamental principles for upholding individual liberty?

I don't believe in individual liberty, but since when was being born in the US a matter of individual liberty?

[WaltM]

http://xomba.com/files/images/Obama%20Logo.jpg

You don't see it?

I thought that was Pepsi or That One

[WaltM]

Now i'm curious if Mexican Anchor babies, qualify for POTUS.

that'll be up to the Supreme Court to decide.

[erowe1]

that'll be up to the Supreme Court to decide.

Actually Congress has the constitutional authority to decide that. Unfortunately, the dirty little secret is that most in Congress, including the ones who rail against legislating from the bench, are perfectly happy to pass the buck and then pretend that they can't go against what SCOTUS decides.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Of which, there's reason to believe (not direct evidence) that Obama was born of an American mother, either in the US, or raised in the US shortly after.

Show me a person who believes Obama is born in the U.S. and both parents we're citizens at the time. Indicate the evidence used to reach such a conclusion.




So if you ask that Obama show his 50 year old birth certificate, logically, every American citizen or immigrant has to show his papers?


No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

What does meeting that unique eligibility requirement have anything to do with every person showing papers?

Is the child of illegal or undocumented aliens eligible to be president?

[JK/SEA]

Don't birth certs. have an imprint in black ink of both feet?...mine does, and both of my kids as well.

[idirtify]

Bad analogy, because a warrant is to be present during, and after the search, and has to be recently issued.


You don’t refute the analogy; you only point out trivial details. The two situations are analogous because they share a common concept: special qualifications are required before granting special powers.



Of which, there's reason to believe (not direct evidence) that Obama was born of an American mother, either in the US, or raised in the US shortly after.


But there is much MORE evidence to suggest that he is NOT a natural American citizen. (That IS what the birther issue is about – right??)



So if you ask that Obama show his 50 year old birth certificate, logically, every American citizen or immigrant has to show his papers?


Speaking of a BAD analogy, wow that’s really lame. Regular citizens do not require special qualifications.



That is correct, I don't believe the government should be held to the standard constitutional compliance,


If you don’t believe that, what exactly are you doing on this forum?



I find it quite insulting that people think it's the first time our Constitution is violated.


Of course it’s not the first time. But what does that have to do with anything?



So if your only copy of birth certificate was lost, you'd be ineligible, correct?


Of course not. Originals can be replaced; the data can be reaffirmed.

[idirtify]

I'm not, but this ain't one of the ways.




I can refute anybody any time, who says I need to be reasonable?



Never, and I got better ones that where he was born.



I don't consider this a crime, but I'll help politicians hide, ignore and neglect crimes if the outcome is a good cause.



Whenever I find it irrelevant.



Whenever it's relevant and beneficial, and vice versa.



I don't believe in individual liberty, but since when was being born in the US a matter of individual liberty?

You say you don’t need to be reasonable and don’t believe in individual liberty. With such statements that obliterate your credibility (ESPECIALLY on a forum such as this), I really don’t need to reply directly to the rest of your comments; which basically consist of picking-and-choosing your principles and repeating your baseless assertions.

[idirtify]

Demanding that Obama show us his birth certificate doesn't accomplish any of those things, as has been demonstrated by the past 2 years of people trying.

People have been trying to eliminate drug prohibition for at least a few decades. So far, it has failed. According to you, the fight should have been stopped a very long time ago.

[idirtify]

One of the best ways to defend yourself against government tyranny is to prove that officials involved in your indictment do/did not have proper jurisdiction. You do that by investigating their qualifications and documentation (licensing, training, certification, degrees, history, etc). This is a clear case of that. Do not dismiss this incredible opportunity to dethrone a very powerful government official. I mean it’s the holy grail to invalidate the jurisdiction of key members of the prosecution. What’s Obama but the “Chief Prosecutor”? It’s a no-brainer.

[Stary Hickory]

One of the best ways to defend yourself against government tyranny is to prove that officials involved in your indictment do/did not have proper jurisdiction. You do that by investigating their qualifications and documentation (licensing, training, certification, degrees, history, etc). This is a clear case of that. Do not dismiss this incredible opportunity to dethrone a very powerful government official. I mean it’s the holy grail to invalidate the jurisdiction of key members of the prosecution. What’s Obama but the “Chief Prosecutor”? It’s a no-brainer.

You would think. I mean to me, if he did in fact lie...well that would mean he arrogantly lied and blocked all attempts to get to the truth. It would mean the MSM was attacking, ridiculing, and acting dishonorably before all of America.

It would be quite huge and a major blow to trust in the government and officals of the government. If it's not a lie...then it's a really ugly way to conduct affairs. With all of the doubt any decent human being (especially since it's a constitutional requirement) would allay these doubts with one simple phone call.

Obama cannot or will not make that phone call. Personally I think he has a shady past, maybe not an odd birth place, but something else. The fact he uses a CT SS number is more than odd...it's bizarre.

[WaltM]

Show me a person who believes Obama is born in the U.S. and both parents we're citizens at the time. Indicate the evidence used to reach such a conclusion.


I said American mother, so not even I myself believe both parents.

Evidence he was born in Hawaii or that his parents are Obama & Durnham?



What does meeting that unique eligibility requirement have anything to do with every person showing papers?


That a 50 year old certificate have lots of chances to get lost, and so does every person's papers, throughout time. But you do not hold the same standards to every single person for being a citizen, you trust his word he is.



Is the child of illegal or undocumented aliens eligible to be president?

According to today's birthright citizenship, yes.
According to Ron Paul, they shouldn't have such citizenship.

[chadhb]

Barry is being blackmailed, so he will do as he is told. This reason alone, is why we must know everything about our President, we are now being held hostage by this idiot. Just as if John Edwards would of been President, he was already being blackmailed. Think about it, this is some pretty serious shit.

[qh4dotcom]

Bump

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

According to today's birthright citizenship, yes.

The reason the natural born citizen requirement clause is in the constitution is because children of aliens are ineligible to be president. Do you think the founders wanted the children of English loyalists residing in the colonies to be eligible for president?

Since you don't believe both parents we're citizens at the time of birth you admit reasonable suspicion the natural born citizen requirement in the constitution has not been met.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

But you do not hold the same standards to every single person for being a citizen, you trust his word he is.

Name one instance the DMV, Social Security, Military, or any other government agency took your word for it you we're a citizen.

Not to mention natural born citizen but the only requirement to demonstrate that is for the office of president.

[idirtify]

That a 50 year old certificate have lots of chances to get lost, and so does every person's papers, throughout time. But you do not hold the same standards to every single person for being a citizen, you trust his word he is.



Let me get this straight…

So you think Obama merely lost his BC?

So you think the qualifications for holding office of POTUS should be held to no higher standard than the qualifications for every single person for being a citizen?

So you think we should just trust Obama’s word that he qualifies?

Oh, I forgot; you don’t think you need to be reasonable and don’t believe in individual liberty (post #150). It’s kinda confusing when the same member who previously destroyed his credibility keeps posting as if he hadn’t. Have you thought about putting this as your signature (“I may occasionally sound like I make a semi-reasonable point that is vaguely related to individual liberty, but actually I do not believe in reason or individual liberty”) so that readers can remember to completely disregard your posts?

[Carole]

Where he was born I do not know. However...

As I understand it, this is NOT the original long form birth certificate, but a computer generated copy of the short form. It does not prove his birth place.

My question is: Why has he spent a million dollars hiding his birth certificate and other information about himself?

[WaltM]

The reason the natural born citizen requirement clause is in the constitution is because children of aliens are ineligible to be president. Do you think the founders wanted the children of English loyalists residing in the colonies to be eligible for president?


No, I definitely don't believe our founders wanted children of aliens to be President.
Nor do I believe the founders wanted blacks to be free, or gays to have equal rights.




Since you don't believe both parents we're citizens at the time of birth you admit reasonable suspicion the natural born citizen requirement in the constitution has not been met.

If that's the argument, then it doesn't matter where he was born.

[WaltM]

Let me get this straight…

So you think Obama merely lost his BC?


Yes, or else what's he hiding?
He's had more than enough time to forge one if he wanted to.



So you think the qualifications for holding office of POTUS should be held to no higher standard than the qualifications for every single person for being a citizen?


Yes. What good is a Constitution if it's not applied equally?



So you think we should just trust Obama’s word that he qualifies?


No, we should trust circumstantial evidence, and the fact most Americans want him as President.



Oh, I forgot; you don’t think you need to be reasonable and don’t believe in individual liberty (post #150). It’s kinda confusing when the same member who previously destroyed his credibility keeps posting as if he hadn’t. Have you thought about putting this as your signature (“I may occasionally sound like I make a semi-reasonable point that is vaguely related to individual liberty, but actually I do not believe in reason or individual liberty”) so that readers can remember to completely disregard your posts?

I'd like nothing better than for you to ignore my posts. Reply all you want.

[WaltM]

Name one instance the DMV, Social Security, Military, or any other government agency took your word for it you we're a citizen.


By this logic, Obama has passed all those tests, since they never took his word for it.



Not to mention natural born citizen but the only requirement to demonstrate that is for the office of president.

and that's the only time ever in history our Constitution has been spat on, so don't let it go!

[WaltM]

You don’t refute the analogy; you only point out trivial details. The two situations are analogous because they share a common concept: special qualifications are required before granting special powers.


Yeah, pointing out the fact that a search warrant has to be available PRESENTLY rather than a birth certificate issued 50 years ago is TRIVIAL AND UNREFUTED.




But there is much MORE evidence to suggest that he is NOT a natural American citizen. (That IS what the birther issue is about – right??)


what is that?




Speaking of a BAD analogy, wow that’s really lame. Regular citizens do not require special qualifications.


Regular citizens have qualifications and rules no less, correct?




If you don’t believe that, what exactly are you doing on this forum?


Same thing you do, defend what I believe is right.



Of course it’s not the first time. But what does that have to do with anything?

Of course not. Originals can be replaced; the data can be reaffirmed.

The fact our constitution has been violated before, makes this MINOR violation a laughable one.

Originals can be replaed and data can be reaffirmed, but if it's not the original, people like you will think up another excuse like "this is fake, where's the evidence". I'll admit right here I don't believe there's an original birth certificate in existence in Hawaii, any other document to be shown, birthers will keep saying THAT DOESNT COUNT.

[WaltM]

People have been trying to eliminate drug prohibition for at least a few decades. So far, it has failed. According to you, the fight should have been stopped a very long time ago.

that depends on what good we stand to recieve.

in 2008, you'd get John McCain as President, good job.

(and yes, I am saying that since I'd not rather have McCain as President, I don't mind violating the Constitution and letting Obama be president.)

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

By this logic, Obama has passed all those tests, since they never took his word for it.

So if police error and shoot an innocent person they should not be held accountable in the courts?

If a state board of elections errors they should not be held accountable in the courts?

Is this your argument for why the 70 or so cases filed so far were rightfully dismissed?




and that's the only time ever in history our Constitution has been spat on, so don't let it go!

Not even close to the only time. But on the other hand it's not the only constitutional matter I discuss. If we are going to discuss gross violations of the constitution we ought to start with unlawful amendments that have no force and effect like the 14th, 16th, etc.

However we are not in one of the countless other threads on this forum discussing other aspects of the constitution. We are discussing this one.

[lynnf]

Lt. Col. Lakin's hearing set


http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=153153http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=153153

The U.S. Army has confirmed June 11 for an Article 32 hearing for a physician who is refusing to obey orders until Barack Obama provides documentation of his eligibility to be commander-in-chief of the nation's military.

The announcement comes today from the American Patriot Foundation, which operates the Safeguard Our Constitution website which is generating support for Lt. Col. Terrence Lakin.


...

[idirtify]

Yes, or else what's he hiding?
He's had more than enough time to forge one if he wanted to.


Far more likely is that he is hiding the fact that he NEVER HAD one, NOT that he lost it. If he merely lost it, he could easily reaffirm the data on it (hospital, doctor, etc).



Yes. What good is a Constitution if it's not applied equally?


This may actually be your most unreasonable claim yet. Apparently you have little clue about the constitution’s main purpose: to restrain government power.



No, we should trust circumstantial evidence, and the fact most Americans want him as President.


Oh boy…First, there is MORE circumstantial evidence suggesting that Obama is NOT a natural born American citizen. Second, popularity does not make him (an elected official) above the law. Third, if you don’t think we should just trust Obama’s word that he qualifies, why did you previously say this -> “you trust his word he is”?



I'd like nothing better than for you to ignore my posts. Reply all you want.


I’ll continue to point out why your posts can be safely disregarded, regarding their general level of credibility.

[idirtify]

Yeah, pointing out the fact that a search warrant has to be available PRESENTLY rather than a birth certificate issued 50 years ago is TRIVIAL AND UNREFUTED.


Both a search warrant and a BC are required BEFORE the government powers can be legally exercised.



what is that?


Now it appears you are not even the slightest bit educated about the subject you are trying to discuss. Instead of depending on me to educate you about the basics of this issue, Google it.



Regular citizens have qualifications and rules no less, correct?


No, that’s entirely incorrect. A regular citizen doesn’t have the same power as an elected official, esp the POTUS.



Same thing you do, defend what I believe is right.


In case you hadn’t noticed, this forum is far more specialized than a place to defend what you believe is right. It’s a place to defend that which you have stated you don’t believe in: individual liberty.



The fact our constitution has been violated before, makes this MINOR violation a laughable one.


A president becoming president without proper qualifications is NOT minor or laughable. If proven, it would be huge news and would likely make many other heads roll and positions fall like dominoes.



Originals can be replaed and data can be reaffirmed, but if it's not the original, people like you will think up another excuse like "this is fake, where's the evidence". I'll admit right here I don't believe there's an original birth certificate in existence in Hawaii, any other document to be shown, birthers will keep saying THAT DOESNT COUNT.


You are simply making baseless predictions on what birthers will do if Obama produces proof of natural citizenship. Obviously your psychic powers are no stronger than your powers of reason. What’s actually more important than the missing BC is the missing data, like the hospital and doctor’s names.

[idirtify]

that depends on what good we stand to recieve.

in 2008, you'd get John McCain as President, good job.

(and yes, I am saying that since I'd not rather have McCain as President, I don't mind violating the Constitution and letting Obama be president.)

Readers: At this point, WaltM has stated that he doesn’t need to be reasonable, that he doesn’t believe in individual liberty, AND that he doesn’t mind violating the constitution. :confused: