Video of SWAT shooting dog while kid looks on

[Matt Collins]

SOURCE:
http://reason.com/blog/2010/05/05/video-of-swat-raid-on-missouri




YouTube - Columbia Mo SWAT Raid 2/11/2010. Cops Shoot Pets With Children Present (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbwSwvUaRqc&feature=player_embedded)


.

[Scofield]

I'll take your word for it. No chance am I watching that video.

[Anti Federalist]

I'll take your word for it. No chance am I watching that video.

Why not?

[Jordan]

I'd be pissed beyond belief if someone killed my dog. My pets are family too.

[Travlyr]

Kind of make me sick to think we are spreading this kind of freedom around the world.

[getch36]

I won't watch it either-to depressing.I've seen enough video's of the out of control SWAT teams doing the evil that they do..........

[Stary Hickory]

Well that was awful.

Narcotics search warrant...so they bust in the guys house the little dog tries to bark at the intruders to save his family and gets shot like 3 times. Dog yelping and crying after getting shot was pretty darn sad. Unbelievable.

All of this violence over an "illegal" substance. That ought to remain at the discretion of the consumer and the seller. One day this will be looked at as a primitive and ignorant thing to do to other living human beings. Safe to say Jefferson would not be proud of this.

[ladyjade3]

I'll take your word for it. No chance am I watching that video.


It took me a day to get up the stomach to watch it. I had to stop it at 0:55 and I can't get that dog's screams out of my head. It hurts my heart to hear that poor animal suffer like that.

Those vicious, blood thirsty thugs. Their names should be known.

[JK/SEA]

EVERYONE needs to see this. I'm at a loss for words.

If that happened to me, i'm pretty sure they would have to kill me.

[EndDaFed]

When you have police departments full of psychopaths this is the result.

[Anti Federalist]

I hope everybody's reaction is ten times as visceral when they shoot people.

Sadly, it's often met with yawns.

Just another day in the land of the free...

[RCA]

I think I'll pass on this one.

[Travlyr]

I hope everybody's reaction is ten times as visceral when they shoot people.

Sadly, it's often met with yawns.

Just another day in the land of the free...



My sentiments exactly! :cool:

[pcosmar]

Watch it, (yes it is hard) and lock the memory away in a box in the dark corner of your being.

When you need it (and you will) take it out for the strength you will need.

:mad:

[Bruno]

Watch it, (yes it is hard) and lock the memory away in a box in the dark corner of your being.

When you need it (and you will) take it out for the strength you will need.

:mad:

Thank you for that advice.

[getch36]

When you have police departments full of psychopaths this is the result.
Exactly right..........also most of them aren't that bright.

[newbitech]

I don't know what to say. This kind of shit makes me want to see cops have a cattle prod shoved...

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[ChaosControl]

I would kill anyone who shot my pets, I don't give a damn who they were.

[SWATH]

I can't watch it, I just lost my best buddy and the pain is still too near. If someone, I don't a good goddamn who, came into my house to harm my dogs, look the fuck out.

[Jordan]

Exactly right..........also most of them aren't that bright.

Of course they aren't. If you score too high on their own testing, you get the boot. You can actually be TOO smart to be a police officer.

[Kýrie eléison]

I fucking hate cops.

[RCA]

Of course they aren't. If you score too high on their own testing, you get the boot. You can actually be TOO smart to be a police officer.

source?

[SWATH]

I fucking hate cops.

They're not all like that but the number seems to be increasing.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Police arrested Jonathan E. Whitworth, 25, of 1501 Kinloch Court on Feb. 11 on suspicion of possession of drug paraphernalia, possession of marijuana and second-degree child endangerment.



Police discovered a grinder, a pipe and a small amount of marijuana, Haden said.

Looked like he got the VIP treatment and possibly eligible to receive preferred customer penalties.
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2008/02/29/6-car-crash/

[Paulitical Correctness]

Comments on the youtube seem to indicate the dog was caged?...:mad:

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010/feb/23/family-questions-swat-drug-search-that-led-to/

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010/may/03/drug-raid-inquiry-is-ongoing/

[Kýrie eléison]

They're not all like that but the number seems to be increasing.

They're still serving the almighty state with a monopoly on force, enforcing unjust laws. They violated his property rights with force, simply because he had marijuana. Big fucking deal.

I don't value anyone who is an enforcer of the state.

[getch36]

Of course they aren't. If you score too high on their own testing, you get the boot. You can actually be TOO smart to be a police officer.I read that too,don't remember where though........

[Paulitical Correctness]

Stay away from Columbia!
YouTube - Cops, unprovoked, use Taser gun on Columbia, MO man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V4ZQvRnllI)

[Jordan]

source?

NEW HAVEN— A Federal judge has dismissed a lawsuit by a man who was barred from the New London police force because he scored too high on an intelligence test.

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/09/nyregion/metro-news-briefs-connecticut-judge-rules-that-police-can-bar-high-iq-scores.html?scp=1&sq=METRO%20NEWS%20BRIEFS:%20CONNECTICUT&st=cse

[FSP-Rebel]

Even worse, these swat guys are armored up from head to toe and they still feel the need to take out pets.

[Chester Copperpot]

ya know at first this video didnt bother me too much.. I mean they had a warrant.. a pitbull is a big dog.. but then to see they only had a 'small amount of pot'....

I expected for this type of action that these people were drug traffickers doing $1 million worth of sales everyday..

Just legalize these drugs already.. its fucking stupid

[speciallyblend]

ya know at first this video didnt bother me too much.. I mean they had a warrant.. a pitbull is a big dog.. but then to see they only had a 'small amount of pot'....

I expected for this type of action that these people were drug traffickers doing $1 million worth of sales everyday..

Just legalize these drugs already.. its fucking stupid

it is insane, and go figure here in colorado all this would of been was a 100 dollar ticket. no warrant no need for cops to even pursue marijuana!! insanity indeed.

End Marijuana Prohibition NOW and if elected officials cannot undertand that simple term. then remove them from office for defending 75 plus yrs of LIES!!!

[revolutionary8]

wow, check this out:

From the article comments:

Mr_Deeds says...


Jessie Hayden shame on you!!! You're sticking your foot in your mouth with every comment you make. Since you do know that this was all filmed, why would make up such lies? You know everything is going to come out in the wash so why set your self up for even more damage control?! I live near these residents and I heard and saw most everything that went down and you are lying through your teeth! You had to act quickly you say? Well then why did you guys wait until 2 nights before the warrant expired to issue it to this family? Why were your officers outside freaking out about "where did the kid come from?", "Who's kid is this?". I heard your officers ask his wife if she was his girlfriend or just lived there and heard the shock in their voices when she said, "I'm his wife." I know several officers apologized to her and personally felt bad for what happened even though your job is to sit there and act like none of them regret what happened. It's your job to sit there and cover their butts!

You could have issued that warrant while that child was at school, bottom line is, you didn't know there was even a child present. You guys didn't know anything! You got some desperate guy against a wall trying to save himself and he threw out every name he could think of. Obvioulsy this person didn't know this guy very well b/c you would've known he was married with a child living there. You could have followed this family and seen the husband go to his two jobs every day and comes home. There's no traffic there, ever, but you guys never thought to even talk to the neighbors! Instead you guys lied to us the next day and said it was just a "drill" and no shots were fired in the home, you guys told several neighbors that! The worst part is that you won't even apologize for what happened to this family, wife or even to the child! It's obvious to me you know what happened was wrong though since you've now taken the time to get on here and defend yourself. I hope you have a big mop Ms. Hayden because you've got a huge mess to clean up. Oh, and you can expect people from the neighborhood to be at that review board when this gets brought up!
If true :eek:

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

I can't watch it. I know, I'm a wimp, but I simply can't. But it still pisses me off nonetheless.

[amy31416]

5oz of pot was found, one dog killed, one dog shot. Wife and child terrorized. One door broken in and 5 swat members getting overtime pay. Then there's the costs of court, prison, lost wages, etc.

For five ounces of a plant. The quantity is, of course, irrelevant.

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2010/feb/23/family-questions-swat-drug-search-that-led-to/

[speciallyblend]

I can't watch it. I know, I'm a wimp, but I simply can't. But it still pisses me off nonetheless.

i can't watch it either. it would make me want to roll a joint the size of a baseball bat and swing it at those insane officers as i smoke it!!!

[Reason]

http://www.politicalforum.com/political-opinions-beliefs/128536-video-horrific-reality-war-drugs-exposed-swat-raid-video-tape.html

http://forums.precentral.net/off-topic/245207-video-horrific-reality-war-drugs-exposed-swat-raid-video-tape.html

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/116101-video-horrific-reality-of-the-war-on-drugs-exposed-in-swat-raid-video-tape.html

http://liberalforum.org/liberalforum/index.php?/topic/85558-video-horrific-reality-of-the-war-on-drugs-exposed-in-swat-raid-video-tape/

[revolutionary8]

25yrcomomom says...


Thank you Mr. Deeds for your comments-I live in this neighborhood as well and was one of the neighbors calling about hearing the shots and was told that I did not hear shots, and that there was nothing to be concerned about. I don't know about you, but when I hear gunfire and I see that police cars are lining the street and a SWAT team is in the yard, I'm thinking there is something to be concerned about and being lied to is insulting. As far as the supposed drug selling, my husband and I are both coming and going all day long and I can say without doubt that I saw absolutley no suspicious activities going on there-not even loud or obnoxious parties, and believe me, I would be the first one calling the police if I had even the slightest thought that he was selling drugs. The thing that concerns me about this is the lack of control that was displayed in this situation-these houses are way too close to eachother and too many kids around for guns to be blazing!
On the other hand, I do not know the information the police had to get this warrant in the first place that would make them act in such a manner, and do not want my comment to be one completely one sided. Being a police officer is risky and I imagine that anyone could get rather jaded if they see the stuff they see.
The police department was quick to look into the complaint I filed concerning this incident and did explain their reasoning, even though I still do not condone the use of guns or the killing of Nalla (that was the dogs name). She was a very sweet dog and if she was showing aggressive behavior it was to protect her family.

Basically, the police didn't even ask the neighbors if there was any suspicious behavior, before blasting in to the neighborhood w/ SWAT, lying to the neighbors, shooting dogs, including a Corgi, and didn't even know that there was a wife and child, 2 days before the warrant expired. The police are trying to say there was no other time to serve the warrant, when Jonathon worked 2 jobs and his child went to school. All for a grinder, a pipe, and little bit of bud, which has been decriminalized by the Columbia community. Unbelievable. I smell a lawsuit.

subdude says...


Next City Council meeting is the first of the month:

http://www.gocolumbiamo.com/webcal/re...

I hope the whole town shows up w/ "pitchforks and torches". Sheesh.

[DamianTV]

Fuck it.

I shot an email off to PETA.

[Anti Federalist]

25yrcomomom says...


As far as the supposed drug selling, my husband and I are both coming and going all day long and I can say without doubt that I saw absolutley no suspicious activities going on there-not even loud or obnoxious parties, and believe me, I would be the first one calling the police if I had even the slightest thought that he was selling drugs

Yeah, that sounds about right.

This person is as large a part of the problem as the cops.


even though I still do not condone the use of guns or the killing of Nalla (that was the dogs name). She was a very sweet dog and if she was showing aggressive behavior it was to protect her family.

Oh, but you have no problem calling other people with guns to do your bidding, just so long as your skirts stay nice and clean.

[silentshout]

I saw this earlier and I've been sad and angry ever since :( The poor dogs...and that kid having to see that!! All for what? A tiny bit of weed? These cops are thugs and should be in jail themselves. So a few ounces or whatever of weed is child endangerment, but shooting the family dog is just fine and dandy I guess. I am so sick of this crap...

[Scofield]

Why not?


It took me a day to get up the stomach to watch it. I had to stop it at 0:55 and I can't get that dog's screams out of my head. It hurts my heart to hear that poor animal suffer like that.

Those vicious, blood thirsty thugs. Their names should be known.

That's why not.

[RCA]

NEW HAVEN— A Federal judge has dismissed a lawsuit by a man who was barred from the New London police force because he scored too high on an intelligence test.

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/09/nyregion/metro-news-briefs-connecticut-judge-rules-that-police-can-bar-high-iq-scores.html?scp=1&sq=METRO%20NEWS%20BRIEFS:%20CONNECTICUT&st=cse

thanks!

[RedStripe]

I fucking hate cops.

It's not only acceptable, but perfectly logical to hate those whose primary purpose is to oppress you.

[TheEvilDetector]

These police officers displayed exceptional breaking, killing and terrorising skills.

Do they get their names on departmental hall of fame for these activities?

I mean this could be the opening chapter of a book titled "Effective Methods to Terrorise People"

[RCA]

Ok, I watched it. It wasn't as "bad" as I thought. I mean it was terrible what they did, but I could at least handle the video, somewhat. I posted this on Facebook. Where are the Diggs, etc.?

[Paulitical Correctness]

Ok, I watched it. It wasn't as "bad" as I thought. I mean it was terrible what they did, but I could at least handle the video, somewhat. I posted this on Facebook. Where are the Diggs, etc.?

That's because we're all becoming desensitized to this shit. :mad:

[RedStripe]

LOL @ cops scared of a little dog, despite being dressed up with more gear than a soldier in Iraq.

I mean these guys have got to be the biggest pussies on the planet.

[phill4paul]

Can't watch it right now. Two dogs and a friend that would be upset by it, and not amenable to storing away the determination for the lawful riddance of LE that I'm am becoming accustomed to, in close proximity. But, damn well, believe I'll watch it at first chance.

[manny229]

When you have police departments full of psychopaths this is the result.

I read a quote once where they did a study that there is not much difference between cops and criminals.
Both like to "play" with guns, both like to force their will on others, both have little empathy, and both beleive the law does not apply to them.

[TheEvilDetector]

I like this comment:

"bunnasoo2: So the dog died an agonizing death, the child is traumatized for life, and the guy now has a police record that will ruin his life. But at least no one got high"

[BuddyRey]

That was hard to watch, but it serves as a good reminder about the police state.

The comments on that video are very encouraging. At least people are waking up!

[RedStripe]

when you get mad a police videos, just watch this

YouTube - Football Fans Get Even with Riot Cops (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxXJZxgg7ZY)

[phill4paul]

My friend is not here anymore so I watched it. The dogs were still here. Their reactions while watching/listening to this were on par with my feelings.:mad:

[BuddyRey]

Oh my gosh, I just found out that one of the dogs that got shot in the video was a Corgi.

A flippin' CORGI!!! One of sweetest and gentlest breeds of dog on the planet!!!

I hope these sonsofbitches get the book thrown at them. :(

[Vessol]

I'll take your word for it. No chance am I watching that video.

People have no problems watching videos of innocent civilians being murdered, but they then all get up in arms when a poor doggy is shot.

[Cowlesy]

Doug Stanhope posted the reason.com link of this and I think it crashed the reason.com servers.

[pcosmar]

I have debated posting this.
Let me tell you how much times have changed. I used to live in Columbia Mo. I Open Carried there and even carried in bars. I had contact with two officers, all very polite.
I was also arrested there, for Bank Robbery.( in 1980) Again very polite. Not one police officer drew a gun. I was arrested with no violence, even after my crime.

I know times have changed. Do not believe otherwise.
:(

[axiomata]

Doug Stanhope posted the reason.com link of this and I think it crashed the reason.com servers.

Also on digg front page.

http://digg.com/d31QIBG

[satchelmcqueen]

i feel bad for the kid.

[xd9fan]

and the guy is charge for child endangerment......what a fucking joke.......9 thugs with rifles and shotguns shoot the family dog IN THE HOUSE WITH THE KID seeing and hearing it.......by dad is charged with child endangerment.......
God my blood pressure on this one........

If its all for the kids....then how much damage did the "cops" do......storming in, yelling, shooting the dog.....ordering the parents to the ground........all in front of a 7 year old boy......in the noble adventure of protecting the 7 year old............My God....

[Nate-ForLiberty]

Give this video to every person in freakin Missouri. How are these "cops" anything but criminals?

I'm just without words.


....narcotics. you got to be kidding me.

They'll make up anything just for the opportunity to kill something.

[catdd]

Did that cop say he shot the dog because "it failed to comply with his command"?

[tremendoustie]

For reference, here's a corgi:

http://darkandbright.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/corgi.jpg

[Krugerrand]

Did that cop say he shot the dog because "it failed to comply with his command"?

2:55 is about where the shooting occurs. I can't turn the volume up loud enough to distinguish a lot of what is specifically said.

anybody else?

[Anti Federalist]

That's why not.

My purpose in asking that was simply to point out that I've observed many times, when it's a human being being executed, or tortured with high voltage, or beaten to a bloody pulp, nobody ever seems to have a problem watching it.

Some of the cop lovers and soldier sniffers around here even defend it.

But let the jackboots come in and slaughter a dog, and all of a sudden strong men quail.

We could maybe put an end to this sort of thing if people would get as infuriated over the killing of a person as the killing of a dog.

[tropicangela]

and the guy is charge for child endangerment......what a fucking joke.......9 thugs with rifles and shotguns shoot the family dog IN THE HOUSE WITH THE KID seeing and hearing it.......by dad is charged with child endangerment.......
God my blood pressure on this one........

If its all for the kids....then how much damage did the "cops" do......storming in, yelling, shooting the dog.....ordering the parents to the ground........all in front of a 7 year old boy......in the noble adventure of protecting the 7 year old............My God....

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb2/cousndick/elian.jpg

[Paulitical Correctness]

I've got a corgi mix. There's no way I would've been as calm as that guy. :mad:

And yeah, it's pretty sick that the comments on tasing videos, shootings, police brutality are more along the lines of "sucker deserved it." or "should have cooperated." but a dog gets shot and everyone is suddenly NWA.

[sluggo]

Sickening.

What country do we live in again?

[fisharmor]

If its all for the kids....then how much damage did the "cops" do......storming in, yelling, shooting the dog.....ordering the parents to the ground........all in front of a 7 year old boy......in the noble adventure of protecting the 7 year old............My God....

Hey, we're just bringing home what we regularly do in other countries.

[JeNNiF00F00]

This is disgusting! Pisses me off beyond belief. Really this makes me hate the state more than I already do. I'm not fully an anarchist but seeing stuff like this makes me that much closer to being one. Fuck these guys!

This is totally why we need to change these laws. The drug war needs to end!

[amy31416]

My purpose in asking that was simply to point out that I've observed many times, when it's a human being being executed, or tortured with high voltage, or beaten to a bloody pulp, nobody ever seems to have a problem watching it.

Some of the cop lovers and soldier sniffers around here even defend it.

But let the jackboots come in and slaughter a dog, and all of a sudden strong men quail.

We could maybe put an end to this sort of thing if people would get as infuriated over the killing of a person as the killing of a dog.

I'm going to disagree with you with some hesitations. If the soldier had thrown an Iraqi baby off a cliff, I really do think that the outcry would have been much greater and there would definitely have been some heads rolling.

If these cops had shot the kid and killed him, rather than the dog, I think the outcry would be much greater, and the cops would actually have a really big problem on their hands.

That said, when the BART cops shot that handcuffed kid, there was an outcry, but not nearly enough of one. Other examples of where you're right and I'm wrong, is with all of these break-ins by cops where the *do* kill or shoot a person--but we don't see videos of those.

[Brian4Liberty]

That said, when the BART cops shot that handcuffed kid, there was an outcry, but not nearly enough of one.

That SWAT team shot the dogs on purpose. The BART shooting was supposedly a mistake (mixed up the Tazer and the Glock). I believe they took away the Tazers to prevent that from happening again.

[Brian4Liberty]

Here's a person getting shot:


Eric Kleemeyer was killed by Santa Clara Police on January 4th, 2005. He allegedly did not pull over, as he was driving to his mother's house.
...
Police boxed him in a driveway across the street from his mom's house. He was 22 years old. Without identifying themselves or asking him to step out of the car, they opened fire and shot him 9 times.

[JeNNiF00F00]

Please join or donate to NORML.

http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=3374

[pcosmar]

Please join or donate to NORML.

http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=3374

That's one option.
I recently joined A.R.M.
http://www.americanmilitiamovement.com/index.php

I am transitioning from Reform to Resistance.
:(

[tremendoustie]

That's one option.
I recently joined A.R.M.
[/URL][URL]http://www.americanmilitiamovement.com/index.php (http://www.americanmilitiamovement.com/index.php)

I am transitioning from Reform to Resistance.
:(

Have you considered peaceful civil disobedience, perhaps in the FSP? I don't think defensive violence leads to anything good.

Force and politics are not the only two options.

[JeNNiF00F00]

That's one option.
I recently joined A.R.M.
http://www.americanmilitiamovement.com/index.php

I am transitioning from Reform to Resistance.
:(

Hey thanks, i'll check it out. I'm about to buy me a tshirt from NORML and will be donating to them as much as I can. Hearing that dog crying out is too much. :(

[Anti Federalist]

Have you considered peaceful civil disobedience, perhaps in the FSP? I don't think defensive violence leads to anything good.

Force and politics are not the only two options.

I wish I could agree.

Sometimes, you have to fight back.

In many cases, just conveying the message that you will resist, is enough to back an oppressor down.

[tnvoter]

People need to see this and be ashamed of the Police state. Things are out of hand.

[pcosmar]

Have you considered peaceful civil disobedience,

Yes, I have.

http://ikilled007.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/japanese-internment.jpg

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/mass_grave1.jpg

:mad:

[MelissaWV]

Part of the reason people care less when the police shoot people is that they often think the worst of their fellow man. When the officers say the person was a danger, and they had no choice but to kill them, a lot of people will say "you weren't there!" and "you have to give them the benefit of the doubt!" and "it's a dangerous job!" and so on. When the victim is a little family dog shot in front of a child, and the entire raid was over something so trivial, and it's in a "normal" neighborhood, it's much more difficult to dismiss it as the victims' fault.

[chudrockz]

People have no problems watching videos of innocent civilians being murdered, but they then all get up in arms when a poor doggy is shot.

Actually, a great many of us, myself included, have a HUGE problem with both. I had a pretty visceral reaction when I watched that video of the Apache guys (I think) gunning down some photographers and shooting that van with the kids in it.

I haven't watched this one yet. Don't know for sure if/ when I will.

I will say this, though. I have a thirteen pound rat terrier. If any cops came to my house for ANY reason and shot him, I swear to God one day soon after they'd have my twelve gauge up their a**hole.

[Nate SY]

Some of the cop lovers and soldier sniffers around here even defend it.

But let the jackboots come in and slaughter a dog, and all of a sudden strong men quail.


I assume I've been lumped into your group of "cop lovers and soldier sniffers" because of my part in the discussion about the shooting of that man with a knife recently? I'll say this, police who do their job legitimately are not horrible people, someone who enforces state law and shows respect for the people he deals with, is not someone who ought to be condemned to hate. And most especially, someone who defends themselves when someone is making an actual attempt on their life doesn't deserve to be cursed. (As I believe was the case in the knife shooting, unless something has come out recently which I do not know of.)

Those who disregard their fellows as below them, or as tools to their enjoyment, deserve a painful death and an eternity in hell. But don't condemn them all to that fate.

[chudrockz]

when you get mad a police videos, just watch this

YouTube - Football Fans Get Even with Riot Cops (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxXJZxgg7ZY)

Very therapeutic, thanks much!

Another tactic, one I'm currently employing, is to crank up some Rage Against the Machine while browning hamburger for our spaghetti dinner tonight. :(

[xd9fan]

the above video reminds me of the fact that there are 150 million gun owners in this country and only 2500 BAFTE officers........

if we ever really decided to take our Rights back......nothing would stop us.

[tremendoustie]

I wish I could agree.

Sometimes, you have to fight back.

In many cases, just conveying the message that you will resist, is enough to back an oppressor down.

Yes, it can have value, but against the government at this time, it's ineffective. Sure, on the day when they're trying to load you on a boxcar somewhere, fight back. But today is not that day.

Our major problem at this time is lack of public awareness/support for liberty. You don't gain that by gun polishing. And if the proverbial boxcar day ever comes, and you're the only one awake enough to notice or resist, your gun's not going to save you or the country then either.

We have to wake people up, and take a principled stand against tyranny. That means civil disobedience.

[tremendoustie]

Yes, I have.

http://ikilled007.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/japanese-internment.jpg

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/mass_grave1.jpg

:mad:


What are you trying to say by this?

Likely, neither of these things would have occurred if there had been early and widespread peaceful civil disobedience. Suppose hoards of regular Americans stood in front of the buses taking the Japanese people away, or suppose no Jew registered, or wore a star of david. Suppose millions of ethnic Germans refused to go along as well.

Someday, God forbid, there may be nothing left to do but use force. Today is not that day, I think we can both agree. So, what are you going to do in the meantime? Sit around and wait for total, 100% totalitarianism? Or do something to slow the growth of the state now, and wake people up?

What is the most effective thing you could be doing today, towards these ends? I guarantee it's not gun polishing.

The state is very good at violence. It's what they do. We need to defeat them in the court of public opinion. We need to take peaceful stands, and show them for what they are. That is what they most fear. Trust me, some adrenaline junkie thug in body armor would be happy to shoot you, if you give them the excuse.

And, that would be a colossal waste of a life, let alone a person who understands liberty ...

[pcosmar]

What are you trying to say by this?
That it is coming here. Sooner or later, but it is the result of actions being taken today.

I will resist.



What is the most effective thing you could be doing today, to roll back the state, wake people up, or take a stand against immoral laws? I guarantee it's not gun polishing.
Educating people is my main focus at the moment. And being prepared personally.

I have no guns. But there are many means of resistance.
Should it require physical resistance (violence), I am mentally prepared for that also.
I do not expect to win. Only to resist, to my last breath.

[tremendoustie]

Educating people is my main focus at the moment. And being prepared personally.


How are you educating people? Don't you think civil disobedience is an effective means to educate people, especially if it is done well? It has catalyzed resistance to tyranny many, many times in the past. As you must know, it's had a huge impact on the issues of slavery, jim crow, women's rights, etc, in this country, and has been used to great effect in places like India, East Germany, Czech republic, Egypt, etc. Many times, it has been used to end tyrannies worse than ours.



I have no guns. But there are many means of resistance.
Should it require physical resistance (violence), I am mentally prepared for that also.
I do not expect to win. Only to resist, to my last breath.

Right, but, don't you think you can accomplish far more in years of activism, during life, than a few seconds of resistance to total tyranny, if that day comes? The cost/benefit ratios don't even begin to compare.

[pcosmar]

:rolleyes:

[tremendoustie]

:rolleyes:

Why the rolled eyes? Aren't these valid points? Shouldn't we do everything we can now to stop tyranny, so that hopefully that doomsday doesn't come?

[ClayTrainor]

:rolleyes:

Do you not see validity in his points? :confused:

[pcosmar]

Do you not see validity in his points? :confused:

No I don't.
I think you should tell it to the Thousands that were slaughtered while Gandhi sat on his rug.

Pacifist Drivel.

[BuddyRey]

I can tell the tide of public opinion is turning by looking at the comments on this video. Whereas five years ago, you would have seen a lot of, "these guys are under a lot of stress and sometimes they make mistakes" or "if you don't want the police in your house, don't break the law", I think most people are beginning to come out of their mental-media fog with the help of the Internet.

I see more pro-liberty sentiment now than at any other time in my life. Freedom is highly contagious, so the question is, how much longer until the revolution reaches critical mass?

[ClayTrainor]

No I don't.

None?

So we should ONLY be promoting and pursuing violent solutions towards liberty, in your opinion?

I'd be interested to see you answer his questions, instead of just rolling your eyes at him as if your reasoning is far superior.

[pcosmar]

None?

So we should ONLY be promoting and pursuing violent solutions towards liberty, in your opinion?

And point to where I said anything close to that.

Fucking idiots that can't even read. :rolleyes:

[ClayTrainor]

And point to where I said anything close to that.


You said that you don't see any validity in his points, and he was making the point that there are alternative solutions to violence. So I asked you a question to see if perhaps you see SOME validity in his points. If not, than you are advocating violence as the only realistic solution that we should promote, as far as I can understand.

I'd love for you to clear this up, for a simple "idiot" like myself.



Fucking idiots that can't even read. :rolleyes:

Insults are commonplace when you can't construct an argument from reason.

[pcosmar]

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”

[Anti Federalist]

Yes, it can have value, but against the government at this time, it's ineffective. Sure, on the day when they're trying to load you on a boxcar somewhere, fight back. But today is not that day.

When that day comes, it will too late to "polish my gun".

The time to make it clear that the state can only cross line X and anything past that will be resisted by force, is now.


Our major problem at this time is lack of public awareness/support for liberty. You don't gain that by gun polishing. And if the proverbial boxcar day ever comes, and you're the only one awake enough to notice or resist, your gun's not going to save you or the country then either.

There are worse fates than death.


We have to wake people up, and take a principled stand against tyranny. That means civil disobedience.

I'm all for it.

I was arrested at a protest in 1988 over fisheries rules.

I was detained in NYC in 2004.

I was almost arrested at a protest in New London CT in 2005.

I fought a 15 year running battle with the IRS.

Ed and Elaine Brown "civilly disobeyed". They will both die in jail as political prisoners.

If what is happening now is not enough to wake people up, then I submit to you that you will never wake them up.

Indeed, the masses can put up with a tenth level of hell tyranny, as long as their base instincts are appeased.

They will have to be dragged along, kicking and screaming, into the light, or jettisoned, lest the whole boat sink.

[ClayTrainor]

@pcosmar It's interesting that you are consistently avoiding the questions that are asked of you....

I'd really like to hear your honest thoughts on the honest questions that Tremoundoustie asked, in response to something you said.

Particularly, this one...





I have no guns. But there are many means of resistance.
Should it require physical resistance (violence), I am mentally prepared for that also.
I do not expect to win. Only to resist, to my last breath.

Right, but, don't you think you can accomplish far more in years of activism, during life, than a few seconds of resistance to total tyranny, if that day comes? The cost/benefit ratios don't even begin to compare.


If you're just gonna roll your eyes, dig up an old quote, or find another way to call me an idiot, please don't bother. If you're not interested in helping us understand your position, than that's your call.

[tremendoustie]

Pacifist Drivel.

I'm not a pacifist. If it's the last resort, I'd defend myself. But, we're talking about what to do today, not in some future doomsday scenario where they're loading people onto boxcars.


Let's examine two scenarios, on the issue of drug prohibition:

1. People read in newspaper about some nutjob who got his head blown off after pulling a gun on a cop, who had come to his house to serve a drug search warrant. It's discovered that he was a Ron Paul supporter. People think, "I knew RP supporters were nuts", or "I knew drug users were violent crazies". Bill is introduced to further limit what guns people may have in their possession, to outlaw gun ownership by those convicted of drug possession, and keep people safe from these kinds of wild druggies. There is widespread approval. Police start exclusively using SWAT style raids to serve drug warrants.

2. People read in newspaper about a peaceful demonstration downtown, where dozens of people held a marijuana bud in their hand, and were arrested for it. A photo shows the sizable gathering, with signs. There is a short interview with an organizer, who explains that he believes creating or enforcing victimless crimes is immoral, that prohibition creates huge amounts of violence, just as alcohol prohibition did, and that he and others are prepared to be arrested in order to stop the abuse. There's a short blurb from the police about "just doing our job".

There is a hearing, at which other activists hand out FIJA notices, and some bring cameras, videos from which will be posted online. All defendants refuse to support the proceedings, pointing out the unjustness of having judges, prosecutors, and witnesses all on the same side, and asking who the victim was. They're fined $400 each. They all take a week or two in jail instead of paying the fine. Both the trials and the jail are very expensive for the state. Activists write letters to local newspapers from inside the jail, explaining the situation, and why drug law/enforcement needs to be reformed. The activists get out after two weeks, and live to fight another day.


Now, which do you think will lead to a better result, for liberty?

[pcosmar]

Now, which do you think will lead to a better result, for liberty?
Neither.
they have nothing to do with liberty.

What have people done about Waco?
What about the Government blowing up the Murrah Building.

False charges and the Media Show in the arrest of the Hutaree.
And more,
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=243228

[tremendoustie]

When that day comes, it will too late to "polish my gun".

The time to make it clear that the state can only cross line X and anything past that will be resisted by force, is now.


Sure, if you want. I just think making these statements doesn't accomplish a whole lot, other than perhaps to steel your resolve, and thinking about doomsday scenarios certainly does not.



There are worse fates than death.


That's true. I'm just saying we should try to make sure that doomsday scenario does not come, and that if it does come, there are many who will stand up for liberty.




I'm all for it.

I was arrested at a protest in 1988 over fisheries rules.

I was detained in NYC in 2004.

I was almost arrested at a protest in New London CT in 2005.


Good stuff :).



I fought a 15 year running battle with the IRS.


That game's rigged, as I'm sure you've discovered.



Ed and Elaine Brown "civilly disobeyed". They will both die in jail as political prisoners.


They were trying to defend themselves forcibly -- that was the reason they got thrown in jail for so long.



If what is happening now is not enough to wake people up, then I submit to you that you will never wake them up.


That's untrue. Look at how bad it got under other regimes before people "woke up". By our efforts, we can make sure people wake up earlier than they would otherwise.



Indeed, the masses can put up with a tenth level of hell tyranny, as long as their base instincts are appeased.


Liberty is a base instinct, at a certain level. People will oppose tyranny, if it gets bad enough.



They will have to be dragged along, kicking and screaming, into the light, or jettisoned, lest the whole boat sink.

If there are 10% of people left, someday, who really want to mug their neighbors and control their lives, while 90% want peace and liberty, that'll be tough peanuts for them. I'm afraid they'll have to straighten out and get real jobs.

[tremendoustie]

Neither.


How can neither have a better result? Are you suggesting the results are equally good?

The latter result appears far better to me.



they have nothing to do with liberty.


Of course they do. I'm asking, suppose you want to stand up against the particular tyranny of drug prohibition. Which method do you think would be most effective?



What have people done about Waco?
What about the Government blowing up the Murrah Building.

False charges and the Media Show in the arrest of the Hutaree.
And more,
[/URL][URL]http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=243228 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=243228)

I don't understand the relevance of these questions. What do you suggest people do?

[pcosmar]

I don't understand the relevance of these questions.

Of course not. That's the problem.

And I can't sit on my hands while friends and family are abused.

[phill4paul]

I assume I've been lumped into your group of "cop lovers and soldier sniffers" because of my part in the discussion about the shooting of that man with a knife recently? I'll say this, police who do their job legitimately are not horrible people, someone who enforces state law and shows respect for the people he deals with, is not someone who ought to be condemned to hate. And most especially, someone who defends themselves when someone is making an actual attempt on their life doesn't deserve to be cursed. (As I believe was the case in the knife shooting, unless something has come out recently which I do not know of.)

Those who disregard their fellows as below them, or as tools to their enjoyment, deserve a painful death and an eternity in hell. But don't condemn them all to that fate.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

There are no good cops or there would be no bad cops.

It's been my understanding that tazers were created for such situation as you pointed out above. Instead they are being used to subdue field runners in ball games because the cops are too fat and out of shape to chase them down or smart enough to wait them out.

Also, since the cops in the above situation knew before hand that there was a disturbed individual with a knife they couldn't have used those nifty plexyglass shields to pin and disarm him.

Nor could a BART officer have mistaken a firearm for a tazer when dealing with a SUBDUED individual.

There are no good cops. Believe me when it comes down between you and them. They are going to make sure all evidence points to you.

[tremendoustie]

Of course not. That's the problem.

And I can't sit on my hands while friends and family are abused.

I didn't ask you to sit on your hands. In fact, that's the opposite of what I'm asking. I'm asking you to peacefully oppose tyranny now, rather than just wait for a doomsday scenario.

I want people who believe in liberty to help put the breaks on the train before we get to a worst case scenario.

[phill4paul]

I didn't ask you to sit on your hands. In fact, that's the opposite of what I'm asking. I'm asking you to peacefully oppose tyranny now, rather than just wait for a doomsday scenario.

I want people who believe in liberty to help put the breaks on the train before we get to a worst case scenario.

It ain't like we're not trying. Hope and work for the best. Prepare for the worst.

[Nate SY]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

There are no good cops or there would be no bad cops.

It's been my understanding that tazers were created for such situation as you pointed out above. Instead they are being used to subdue field runners in ball games because the cops are too fat and out of shape to chase them down or smart enough to wait them out.

Also, since the cops in the above situation knew before hand that there was a disturbed individual with a knife they couldn't have used those nifty plexyglass shields to pin and disarm him.

Nor could a BART officer have mistaken a firearm for a tazer when dealing with a SUBDUED individual.

There are no good cops. Believe me when it comes down between you and them. They are going to make sure all evidence points to you.

So every member of LEAP is a bad person then? Simply due to their coworkers? How about we put that on a larger scale and say there are no good Americans or there would be no bad Americans? What do you expect them to do, arrest their supervisors? Arrest those who enforce drug prohibition? What good would that do to anyone? Nothing would hold up, they'd be put out of the job, and probably put in jail themselves. Personally, I'd give my life, but never my liberty.

In the situation I was speaking of the police didn't know he had a knife prior to the incident, also not all police are issued tazers.

I agree that the BART shooting, and the baseball tazings were ridiculous and obviously wrong, however even a corrupt majority shouldn't lead to the condemnation of the minority.

I do realize the corrupt will do anything to protect themselves and are more than willing to lie to ensure you get blamed. But from personal experience, sometimes, albeit rarely, there are officers who will admit their own mistakes, apologize to you, and continue on with their jobs.

[tremendoustie]

It ain't like we're not trying. Hope and work for the best. Prepare for the worst.

Sure, that's fine. I'm just saying, the only two options are not elections, or gun cleaning, as some seem to imply. There's a whole range of peaceful activism that can be done, in between those two endpoints.

If you're willing to die for liberty, you should be willing to get arrested for it too, and willing to move. If huge numbers refuse to obey, at the same time and place, there's little they can do, and the court system is already overburdened.

As I said on the other thread, Jury nullification, civil disobedience, state nullification, agorism (especially alternate currencies and local economies), non-cooperation, peaceful secession, media, education, state and local lobbying, etc, are invaluable, and underutilized methods.

[tremendoustie]

So every member of LEAP is a bad person then? Simply due to their coworkers? How about we put that on a larger scale and say there are no good Americans or there would be no bad Americans? What do you expect them to do, arrest their supervisors? Arrest those who enforce drug prohibition? What good would that do to anyone? Nothing would hold up, they'd be put out of the job, and probably put in jail themselves. Personally, I'd give my life, but never my liberty.

In the situation I was speaking of the police didn't know he had a knife prior to the incident, also not all police are issued tazers.

I agree that the BART shooting, and the baseball tazings were ridiculous and obviously wrong, however even a corrupt majority shouldn't lead to the condemnation of the minority.

I do realize the corrupt will do anything to protect themselves and are more than willing to lie to ensure you get blamed. But from personal experience, sometimes, albeit rarely, there are officers who will admit their own mistakes, apologize to you, and continue on with their jobs.

Not all cops are bad, but the vast majority are. This is evidenced by the fact that when there's a beating, there's often a dozen or so cops standing around doing jack squat, or waiting until its their turn to join in. And, after the fact, it's concluded that everything was "by the book", and cops, as well as cop supporters, come out of the woodwork to defend the most outrageous abuse.

I literally have never seen a cop comment on an abuse story, identify it as such, and call for the arrest of the officer involved -- either in print, TV, online, or in person. They're like a club (or gang) -- they look out for each other, at the expense of everyone else.

Most of the good guys are forced out by peer pressure.

[mikem317]

Just remember, "they hate us for our freedoms."

[Anti Federalist]

Liberty is a base instinct, at a certain level. People will oppose tyranny, if it gets bad enough.

I disagree, and this is probably central to the disagreement.

I think the vast bulk of humanity has, and has always, just gone along to get along, suffering under myriad tyrannies without the resolve or the will to throw off their oppressors.

My point is made much more forcefully here:

and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed

Jefferson goes on to say that rebellion is a natural reaction to that oppression, keeping in mind that it is almost always, just as in Jefferson's day, a small committed minority and not a plush majority that instigates revolution and throws off the chains of oppression, at least for little while.

The sad fact of the matter is that for the great mass of humanity, through the great vastness of time, oppression and tyranny is the norm of human existence.

Freedom and liberty have only popped up recently, are still rare, and require boldness, action and yes, a bloody fight many times, to acquire.

[Anti Federalist]

Or consider this, which was helpfully posted in another thread:

Article 10 of the NH constitution's Bill of Rights:

Whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.

[revolutionary8]

Y'all are good people. :)

Score one for Al Gore's interwebs:

UPDATE: SWAT raid prompts Columbia police review of policies
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2010/05/06/update-swat-raid-prompts-police-review-policies/

Thursday, May 6, 2010 | 8:33 p.m. CDT


COLUMBIA — When Columbia Police SWAT officers kicked in Jonathan Whitworth's door, they didn't find what they were looking for but drew a worldwide audience.

Acting on an 8-day-old warrant on Feb. 11, at least eight officers raided Whitworth's home at 1501 Kinloch Court in southwest Columbia on the suspicion that he was dealing a significant amount of marijuana. But there were no drugs. The tip on Whitworth came from an informant who the police chief said apparently wasn't consulted before the raid was carried out.

Another problem: During the raid, officers fatally shot Whitworth's pit bull and wounded a Welsh corgi before arresting Whitworth, whose wife and 7-year-old were also home.

Now, as the department nears the end of its internal investigation of the matter, it is facing widening ripples of consequences of a story that has gone viral. A video of the raid had received almost 295,000 views on YouTube as of 8 p.m. Thursday as Whitworth's attorney said his client was contemplating legal action against the department.

"We're reviewing everything right now, and we're keeping every possibility open," Jeff Hilbrenner said. He said Whitworth had not yet filed a formal complaint with the Police Department, and Whitworth's family had been put in an awkward position.

"They know that it’s come to the attention of people all over America," Hilbrenner said. "They’ve been contacted by people they don’t know offering support from all over the country. They don’t want that to be how they’re known. They would prefer to go on living their life as a young couple with a young son."

The attention has been much grimmer for the Police Department. On Thursday afternoon, Chief Ken Burton held a news conference with Mayor Bob McDavid at Columbia City Hall to combat what he repeatedly called the Internet's mixing of "fact with fiction."

"We're getting death threats from literally all over the world," Burton said, declining to release the names of the officers involved.

Burton sought to put an end to rumors that the pit bull was in a cage when the officers shot it. He also said the corgi had been shot in the paw by accident because it was next to the pit bull when the larger dog attacked the officers coming in the front door. The pit bull ran away and again threatened officers, who shot it, Burton said.

In the video, "you hear that dog (the corgi) screaming, and that isn't pleasant to listen to," Burton said.

As for Whitworth — who pleaded guilty on April 20 to a misdemeanor charge of unlawful use of drug paraphernalia and was fined $300 — Burton said a federal drug conviction and a history of combative arrests prompted the use of heavy police force. Burton regretted the department waited so long to execute the warrant.

"I don’t think we should have run it eight days later," Burton said. "We should have run it that day. We simply didn’t do it. So we own that, and we’re very sorry it turned out the way it did. None of those officers wanted to hurt that dog — or any dog, as a matter of fact — but it was an unfortunate situation.”
As McDavid stood next to him, Burton said he had changed department policy to conduct raids immediately after a search warrant is obtained. Burton said the department moved slowly in Whitworth's case because the SWAT team is made up of part-time members who hold other jobs within the department.

But he said the SWAT team had no policy on how to deal with dogs.

When asked whether police would have conducted the raid if they knew Whitworth's son was present, Burton was equivocal. "I would have looked at the situation and the circumstances that day," he said.

Burton said he expected an internal review of the matter to be finished as soon as Monday. There were notes of ambivalence in a chief who largely stood by his officers.

"Frankly, we wouldn’t be standing here if an officer had been bit by a pit bull instead of the reverse happening," Burton said.

He added, “We probably could have been involved in a shooting in there with a person and not been given this much attention, but because it was a dog ...”

Lt. Scott Young, who is in charge of the department's SWAT team, said he couldn't comment specifically on the incident because of the ongoing investigation. As for the department's policy on handling dogs, he said. "If they're aggressive and violent towards our officers, we'll shoot 'em," though he said it was "rare."

What about using a Taser?

"It’s just not as effective on dogs as it is on humans," Scott said. "An aggressive dog is a very tough animal. ... The dog certainly suffers no aftereffects (from the electric shock). As soon as the five seconds is up, they’re right back at it."

The video, depicting a paramilitary-style police raid on a suspected marijuana dealer, highlighted a separate issue. In 2004, the city voted to pass an ordinance that stated: "The limited resources of law enforcement should be directed primarily toward crimes of violence or property loss. The enforcement of laws against marijuana shall be among the lower priorities of law enforcement."

But Scott said the ordinance was intended for misdemeanor levels of possession. "We do not do search warrants based on information that there’s a small amoffenders and high-frequency of weapons involved," Scott said. Still, most of those go off well.

"We’ve had years where we’ve done over 100 (raids) a year, and the vast vast bulk of them are without incident, with no violence, no resistance, no problems," Scott said. "We’re always reviewing our tactics and methods to make sure we’re safer for everybody."

As for the video, during Thursday's news conference, Burton said cameras on SWAT officers — already common for downtown patrol units — were still in the experimental phase. Scott embraced the idea.

"We video all of them that we can," Scott said. "If a person were to be resistant towards us, it would be good to have that on video. Video gets us out of a lot more complaints and accusations than they get us into."

all I can say is, mess with the bull, get the horns, boys.
They didn't run the video b/c they wanted the clock to tick down before Whitworth had the support he would obviously get after the video was released. It was a tactical move, and one that backfired. Whitworth literally has the whole world on his side now, what w/ all the bleeding hearts and PETA people and the dog and the kid, along w/ all the anti-police staters, the libertarians, the CTers, and the Constitutionalists, the pro-hempers, annnnd the anti-drug war legions, this case is destined for fame. GOOOOO WHITWORTHS! :D This case really has all the elements. I hope to GAWD that family holds these DOG KILLERS and KID TERRORIZERS accountable!!!!

RPFers, I'd send em' your strength and encouragement and knowledge...

[BuddyRey]

Y'all are good people. :)

Score one for Al Gore's interwebs:

UPDATE: SWAT raid prompts Columbia police review of policies
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2010/05/06/update-swat-raid-prompts-police-review-policies/

Thursday, May 6, 2010 | 8:33 p.m. CDT



all I can say is, mess with the bull, get the horns, boys.
They didn't run the video b/c they wanted the clock to tick down before Whitworth had the support he would obviously get after the video was released. It was a tactical move, and one that backfired. Whitworth literally has the whole world on his side now, what w/ all the bleeding hearts and PETA people and the dog and the kid, along w/ all the anti-police staters, the libertarians, the CTers, and the Constitutionalists, the pro-hempers, annnnd the anti-drug war legions, this case is destined for fame. GOOOOO WHITWORTHS! :D This case really has all the elements. I hope to GAWD that family holds these DOG KILLERS and KID TERRORIZERS accountable!!!!

RPFers, I'd send em' your strength and encouragement and knowledge...

Terrific news! But we should still keep up the pressure by calling the Columbia, MO PD at 573-874-7652 and encouraging them to not let these guys off with a wrist-slap. That one police bureaucrat they interviewed seemed to be sort of half-hearted in his condemnation of these officers' actions.

It's important for them to know that what happened wasn't just wrong because two dogs got shot, but because people should never be terrorized in their homes by armed goons just because they sell plants. This story should really get people thinking about the proper role of law enforcement in our lives.

[tremendoustie]

I disagree, and this is probably central to the disagreement.

I think the vast bulk of humanity has, and has always, just gone along to get along, suffering under myriad tyrannies without the resolve or the will to throw off their oppressors.

My point is made much more forcefully here:

and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed

Jefferson goes on to say that rebellion is a natural reaction to that oppression, keeping in mind that it is almost always, just as in Jefferson's day, a small committed minority and not a plush majority that instigates revolution and throws off the chains of oppression, at least for little while.

The sad fact of the matter is that for the great mass of humanity, through the great vastness of time, oppression and tyranny is the norm of human existence.

Freedom and liberty have only popped up recently, are still rare, and require boldness, action and yes, a bloody fight many times, to acquire.

Civil disobedience also requires a small committed minority, boldness, and action.

At least, I'm sure we can agree, the time for violence is not now.

Given that, I suggest that we engage in civil disobedience, and other proven methods for peaceful reform, in the meantime.

Also, look at what the revolutionaries got ... another coercive government. The new government was abusing people just as the old had, within a few short years. Those who resist power by force, usually take the reigns of power themselves. I don't want revolution.

I want evolution to a new way of organizing society, respecting individual liberty, and eschewing aggressive violence/coersion.

I am asking, not for theory, but for what you will do today. I assume you're not engaged in some sort of forceful resistance. So, instead of conjecturing about that day, let's work now to stop it from coming.

[revolutionary8]

Terrific news! But we should still keep up the pressure by calling the Columbia, MO PD at 573-874-7652 and encouraging them to not let these guys off with a wrist-slap. That one police bureaucrat they interviewed seemed to be sort of half-hearted in his condemnation of these officers' actions.

It's important for them to know that what happened wasn't just wrong because two dogs got shot, but because people should never be terrorized in their homes by armed goons just because they sell plants. This story should really get people thinking about the proper role of law enforcement in our lives.

I agree BuddyRey, and I up your ante- I say we go for a 4 pronged attack-
Contact the Whitworths to show support, number one= it will be THEIR family that suffers through this. #2 Contact the Lawyers, even offer some consultation of sorts if that is one's forte... #3 Contact the CPD and let them know that this case will be scrutinized by the best and brightest and of course #4- become the eyes and ears of this case, ie, be our own media, because LAWD knows that the MSM isn't up for the job. :D

[revolutionary8]

Dear admin and mods,
please consider opening a sort of "crimes and trials" forum- I think that the minds here are sharp and have a good eye for picking out details. This forum might offer a sort of "defensive minded" counterbalance to all the prosecutorial soccer moms out there yelling " HANG EM!!" at every man/woman/childed accused of a crime by our beloved police- hell, look at CourtTV forums, it's insane- I ended up there once googling Ron Paul, and I was shocked, and this was after realizing that the whole world is run by a banking cartel. :D

iow- it might attract some interest, as well as serve as a form of activism.

[Anti Federalist]

Civil disobedience also requires a small committed minority, boldness, and action.

At least, I'm sure we can agree, the time for violence is not now.

Given that, I suggest that we engage in civil disobedience, and other proven methods for peaceful reform, in the meantime.

Also, look at what the revolutionaries got ... another coercive government. The new government was abusing people just as the old had, within a few short years. Those who resist power by force, often take the reigns of power themselves.

Yes, this is the sad condition of human nature.

Certainly the Indian government was not a bastion of liberty after Gandhi either.

But I do agree and am all for civil disobedience, you'll get no argument from me on that. ;)

[BuddyRey]

Dear admin and mods,
please consider opening a sort of "crimes and trials" forum- I think that the minds here are sharp and have a good eye for picking out details. This forum might offer a sort of "defensive minded" counterbalance to all the prosecutorial soccer moms out there yelling " HANG EM!!" at every man/woman/childed accused of a crime by our beloved police- hell, look at CourtTV forums, it's insane- I ended up there once googling Ron Paul, and I was shocked, and this was after realizing that the whole world is run by a banking cartel. :D

iow- it might attract some interest, as well as serve as a form of activism.

Great idea! Seconded!

[daviddee]

...

[revolutionary8]

It is for these reasons drug king pins in Florida used to have the vocal cords removed from their attack dogs. SWAT would not hear them coming and get mauled.

I long for the day these SWAT douche bags are met with similar force they exact on the public they "serve and protect".

Unfortunately, these tactics will continue until homeowners take the plunge and kill one or two SWAT agents. After 100's of SWAT agents are killed (along with hundred of homeowners) maybe it will have the effect of diminishing the gung ho attitude of wanting to join the SWAT team or focus more attention on the issue of legally sanctioned home invasions. Granted these scumbags are genetically prone to this mindset so it will take a while to clean the gene pool.

The closest example I can think of is when the Branch Davidians had the drop on the ATF agents and then let them retreat to rearm and reload. If they just continued they would have killed them all.

The only state that you MIGHT have a defense team for this- Texas. All others, kiss your ass goodbye. Dead or LWOP. Do not collect 2 hundy, do not pass go. That is the numer one problem with "your idea".
number two- this will result in (insert town, township,county, state, etc etc) in passing draconian laws that will allow SWAT to enter your home with AUTOMATIC weapons in fear of being greeted w/ a SEMI-AUTO. Remember this: There is ALWAYS a bigger fish...

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa--- baaaaaaa--- baaaaaaaaaaaaaa-----ddddd idea bro.

What the Whitworths did is what they have become. Remember that. The Whitworths are not the murderers, and child terrorists here, The CPD is.

[daviddee]

...

[tpreitzel]

This incident simply illustrates why the "War on Drugs" is a total failure on many levels.

[daviddee]

...

[revolutionary8]

I never assumed the home owner would have a defense.

I assumed the homeowner would be killed.

If you have no defense, what is the point? Murder? C'mon. Dying for your "freedom"? C'mon. Even if one of the two, or neither of the two are cause of the motivation, it won't matter. You will be the villian to "the majority". Right now, the Whitworths are the VICTIMS, as they should be. They will CEASE to be the victim, when/if they pursue this in a legal manner. Victimhood is left up to THEM. Your solution it seems to me, is to be a victim, no matter what... I don't like those choices...
If you are talking martyrdom, that of course is different, but it won't change the endgame. You, or shall I say the actions you are condoning here, whether dead or sitting in a courtroom, will only give them cause to inflict more tyrannical measures. It's a catch 22, but only if you don't see it as such.

[tpreitzel]

Perspective..

For local and federal law enforcement it has been a complete success.

Cash flow (seizures), work force (prison inmates), and power (shredding constituion) grabbing.

Yeah, my wording should have been more conditional, unfortunately. ;) Naturally, I was thinking in terms of constitutional liberty for the people.

[Keller1967]

This incident simply illustrates why the "War on Drugs" is a total failure on many levels.

As if someone getting arrested for smoking/holding/growing a plant shouldn't illustrate that enough already. :(

[daviddee]

...

[tropicangela]

The Police Chief & Mayor audio. Chief said the little dog was the one crying (as though it matters which one was crying...) so that is the "fiction" (he said people are mixing up facts with fiction) because people erroneously thought it was the pit bull crying. wth? Says dogs are shot by officers daily and this was justified... tried to demonize the suspect by saying he was no "choir boy" because he has previously resisted arrest and has a federal conviction for conspiracy to distribute cocaine & marijuana (nonviolent.) Listen for more...

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/multimedia/audio/2010/05/06/burton-mcdavid-speak-press-about-swat-raid/

[daviddee]

...

[tpreitzel]

The cops trying to shift blame by painting this guy as the "evil doer".

As a Christian (human), I'm fairly sure this guy isn't a "choir boy" as is no human. However, the real problem is the black market created through prohibition which then encourages businessmen (opportunists, e.g. dealers) to exploit the market potential for enormous profits while accepting the risk, e.g. the sudden appearance of a SWAT team. I love the song from the FIXX, "One thing leads to another", because it succinctly summarizes the consequences of any human action.

[Keller1967]

As a Christian (human), I'm fairly sure this guy isn't a "choir boy" as is no human. However, the real problem is the black market created through prohibition which then encourages businessmen (opportunists) to exploit the market potential for enormous profits while accepting the risk, e.g. the sudden appearance of a SWAT team. I love the song from the FIXX, "One thing leads to another", because it succinctly summarizes the consequences of any human action.

wtf does that mean? choir boy?

[revolutionary8]

Both of your comments have missed very vital premises and you have papered over them with your programming that you must be a good citizen and all of those around you will do the same... for fear that things might get worse. Add to this you are so consumed with what people/masses might think.

This narrow view into your mind is scary. It might be wise for you to ask yourself why you are paralyzed and your actions (future and current) are motivated by what others might think and might do.

Most wise people understand they they are paralyzed by the fear of their actions (as you put it) in the REAL WORLD, people look at the assets vs. their liabilities. Let me ask, see a dying man on the street about to get hit by a car, WOULD YOU pull him out of the way and give him CPR??? Some would, some wouldn't.
Some see it as a sort of "Princess Bride" movie, and some see it as a "Cops Episode". I'll ask In what camp you lay down your nappy...

If I were to go by your online persona, I'd say you live in a COPS episode, but if I were gonna bet $$$, I'd put it on Wisteria Ln. ;)

[tpreitzel]

wtf does that mean? choir boy?

Ask the Chief of the SWAT team. My usage of the term simply means innocent.

[Anti Federalist]

YouTube - Government Admits they Deal Heroin, Terrorize Families for Pot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WcuYafh1ek&feature=player_embedded)

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

The closest example I can think of is when the Branch Davidians had the drop on the ATF agents and then let them retreat to rearm and reload. If they just continued they would have killed them all.

Uh, the Branch Davidians did not get the drop on the BATFE. In fact, it was the agents themselves who started the firefight (admitted on the stand at trial) by shooting the Davidians dogs. Furthermore, most of the BATFE deaths and injuries were self-sustained. Few, if any, got shot by the Davidians. Watch the videotape of the agents crouched behind the trucks and you'll notice there are NO bullet holes, shattered glass or gouges in the ground where incoming fire would occur.

[Bruno]

Bump - this (finally) just showed up on Drudge

[pcosmar]

People need to start exercising their rights.
http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.txt


Your Right of Defense Against Unlawful Arrest

“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting
officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This
premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the
case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: “Where the
officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally
accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with
very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right
to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What
may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter
in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been
committed.”

“An arrest made with a defective warrant, or one issued without
affidavit, or one that fails to allege a crime is within jurisdiction,
and one who is being arrested, may resist arrest and break away. lf the
arresting officer is killed by one who is so resisting, the killing will
be no more than an involuntary manslaughter.” Housh v. People, 75 111.
491; reaffirmed and quoted in State v. Leach, 7 Conn. 452; State v.
Gleason, 32 Kan. 245; Ballard v. State, 43 Ohio 349; State v Rousseau,
241 P. 2d 447; State v. Spaulding, 34 Minn. 3621.

“When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right
to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by
force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense,
his assailant is killed, he is justified.” Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80;
Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1.

“These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an
arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by
the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private
individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence.” Jones v. State,
26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State,
43 Tex. 93, 903.

“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to
be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in
defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and
battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

“Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case,
the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer
and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.” (State v.
Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

“One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as
he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus
it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an
officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without
resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).

“Story affirmed the right of self-defense by persons held illegally. In
his own writings, he had admitted that ‘a situation could arise in which
the checks-and-balances principle ceased to work and the various
branches of government concurred in a gross usurpation.’ There would be
no usual remedy by changing the law or passing an amendment to the
Constitution, should the oppressed party be a minority. Story concluded,
‘If there be any remedy at all ... it is a remedy never provided for by
human institutions.’ That was the ‘ultimate right of all human beings in
extreme cases to resist oppression, and to apply force against ruinous
injustice.’” (From Mutiny on the Amistad by Howard Jones, Oxford
University Press, 1987, an account of the reading of the decision in the
case by Justice Joseph Story of the Supreme Court.

As for grounds for arrest: “The carrying of arms in a quiet, peaceable,
and orderly manner, concealed on or about the person, is not a breach of
the peace. Nor does such an act of itself, lead to a breach of the
peace.” (Wharton’s Criminal and Civil Procedure, 12th Ed., Vol.2: Judy
v. Lashley, 5 W. Va. 628, 41 S.E. 197)

[Anti Federalist]

///

[Anti Federalist]

Concerning all the heat his department is getting for a SWAT raid that ended up with two dogs being shot and no felony amounts of drugs being found.

Butthurt much, chiefie?
http://pdxgrafix.com/home/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/366d1842389eda13051a9d21268f79aa.jpg


UPDATE: Columbia Police Department still dealing with backlash about SWAT raid

Monday, May 10, 2010 | 9:51 p.m. CDT

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2010/05/10/police-department-still-dealing-public-backlash-over-swat/

(snip)

In Monday's press conference, Burton said feedback to the department seemed to be coming from three discrete groups, some of whom he believed were reacting to bad information.

"The biggest group seems to be the marijuana legalization advocates," Burton said, who he urged to lobby policymakers if they wanted a change in the law.

The next group were animal rights advocates. Burton lamented the death of the Whitworth's pit bull, but had a do-what-you-gotta-do outlook on the SWAT team's handling of dogs, calling human safety the "primary" concern.

And the last group?

"The last group is the people that hate us anyway, for whatever reason," Burton said. "And I don't put any stock into what they say. There are cop haters out there, and that's just something we'll have to live with."

While the incident has prompted decision-making changes in handling of drug raids — such as Burton's Thursday announcement that raids would now be served within eight hours after police obtain a warrant — the department's policies on the tactical treatment of dogs and suspects remain unchanged.

So has Burton learned anything from the incident?

"I hate the Internet," he deadpanned.