Buying gold anonymously: still possible? Shops ask for ID.

[aragorn]

Hello folks.
I have a question about buoying PM. I want to buy some gold coins. I know what coins I need, so that’s not a question. But here’s a problem.

As many others here, I want to buy it anonymously so that big brother doesn’t know. So, if I buy online, there will be lots of traces left: 1). bank transaction records (whether it’s wire transfer or a check) 2. ebay transaction if I buy from ebay (also a paypal transaction). I’ve heard that all paypal transactions go through feds as wire transfers, and paypal transactions contain ebay item description in the note. So, all electronic transactions and checks are easy traceable.

So I decided to proceed with local coin shops (I’m in NYC) buying with cash. I called “Manfra, Tordella & Brookes, Inc”. ( http://www.mtbcoins.com/ ) and “Gold Standard Refining Corp” at 21 West 47 St - and they both told me that I must show my ID. I asked if they will record my ID info and they said “yes, we need it for our internal records”.

Do they report their clients to IRS or other agencies? Or do they show this info to IRS if they get audited? How does that work?

Seems like there’s no way of buying PM in private anymore, am I correct? Maybe you guys can recommend a shop in NYC which doesn’t ask for ID? Those of you who buy online, aren’t you concerned about letting authorities know? If they start confiscating gold in future, they might have a full database of gold holders…. No, I’m not a paranoic, I’m just concerned

Please, advice.
Thanks!

[JeNNiF00F00]

find a private dealer

[WaltM]

its not impossible, just hard when you're going big amounts, because the dealer would have to account for the money and they don't want any excuse that can be interpreted that somebody bought from them with dirty money, or that they're laundering any operations.

[aragorn]

find a private dealer

How can I find one? Please tell me more if you can.

[Kylie]

pawn shops.

Buy it cash. Little at a time, but I would venture to say that they would not want to take your info.

[JeNNiF00F00]

How can I find one? Please tell me more if you can.

Go to gold and silver shows. Coin shows and stuff like that. I'm sure there are plenty of private dealers there.

[Jordan]

pawn shops.

Buy it cash. Little at a time, but I would venture to say that they would not want to take your info.

New York charges sales tax on orders less than $1000, so the OP is kind of screwed on small orders.

Sorry, bro, your state sucks. Your options are limited. Blame your government.

[aragorn]

its not impossible, just hard when you're going big amounts, because the dealer would have to account for the money and they don't want any excuse that can be interpreted that somebody bought from them with dirty money, or that they're laundering any operations.

Thanks, do you know what they consider big amounts? I was thinking of paying little under $10K. Is that usually considered big?


Go to gold and silver shows. Coin shows and stuff like that. I'm sure there are plenty of private dealers there.

That’s an idea, thanks. Although they are pretty far from NYC as far as I know…


New York charges sales tax on orders less than $1000, so the OP is kind of screwed on small orders.

Sorry, bro, your state sucks. Your options are limited. Blame your government.

Yeah….

Well, I think I will pass by different shops on 47th street (so called Diamond District) and see what they can offer…
One more question. What are the chances of ending up with fake coins when buying from shops? (not from strangers on the street in that area?). The point is: I never saw a golden coin, so I’m not sure I can tell the difference :confused:

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Thanks, do you know what they consider big amounts? I was thinking of paying little under $10K. Is that usually considered big?

If you are going to come into a forum and pose questions baiting people into to telling you how to circumvent a legal system that criminalizes structuring transactions under federal reporting limits expect people not to be friendly.

[TCE]

Thanks, do you know what they consider big amounts? I was thinking of paying little under $10K. Is that usually considered big?



That’s an idea, thanks. Although they are pretty far from NYC as far as I know…



Yeah….

Well, I think I will pass by different shops on 47th street (so called Diamond District) and see what they can offer…
One more question. What are the chances of ending up with fake coins when buying from shops? (not from strangers on the street in that area?). The point is: I never saw a golden coin, so I’m not sure I can tell the difference :confused:

Depends. There are obviously fakes out there, and I have seen some questionable coins, although not American Eagles, but if you act like you have no idea what you're doing, they might just toss in a couple fakes. Yes, $10,000 on PM's is considered big. Less than $1,000 at a time is preferable.

[TCE]

If you are going to come into a forum and pose questions baiting people into to telling you how to circumvent a legal system that criminalizes structuring transactions under federal reporting limits expect people not to be friendly.

And also, if it was secret, it wouldn't be secret after we posted it on the public forum. Truthfully though, aragorn, if it's less than $10,000, I doubt you're going to be that high on the government's watch list anyway, especially if you are planning for a shtf and go with smaller denominations. Hint: Do not buy the big gold bars, they are impossible to resell, trust me. You should have that spread around enough that if there ever is a confiscation, they'll never be able to get it all.

[muzzled dogg]

New York charges sales tax on orders less than $1000, so

same as massachusetts

do like i do and buy with some kid you met on rpf

combine purchases so neither pay the state jack shit

[tangent4ronpaul]

Brian at warrifles.com sells coins to members that have donated to the site for an enhanced membership. Have not been on the site in months, but just checked and he's still doing it. I've never bought gold from him, but he occasionally has some. 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2 oz coins. Never seen him offer a 1 oz gold coin. Never been burned and there are plenty of satisfied repeat customers on the site. Basically, his reputation and his sites reputation is your guarantee that he's reputable. Read the Survival Economics sub-form there for more. It should become immediately apparent that he's not the kind of guy to keep records of such transactions past verifying that they have been received...

I've only bought some "junk" (90%) silver coins from him before, though he has carried the .9999 stuff from time to time. Cleaned, verified, not excessively worn. Very happy with my purchases. He also uses like half a roll of tape to secure packages.... :) Selection is pathetic. It's whatever he's found and likes as to quality. Last time he got gold coins, I think he had 12 available. Silver dimes - something like 40 rolls.... New inventory comes in about twice a month. He does this to support his site. It's done on a "group buy" basis. He makes little to nothing on the coins, it's the donations to keep the site running that he's after - and he won't let you buy unless you've donated. MRE depot was doing discounts for members for a while, as was a guy selling medical supplies. I also got in on a group buy of Mylar bags for food storage through the site once.

IMNSHO - silver has a lot more potential to gain value than gold does.

I got the impression you were buying this in case of TSHTF, if so, I would strongly recommend silver and forgetting about gold for the most part. Heavier, still portable but fine grain as to denomination value. What works better in trade? a bunch of coins worth $1.00 - $1.20 each or a single coin worth $300.00 - $600.00?

If you don't have food, water filter, etc. Your priorities are seriously messed up.

As an alternate investment idea, consider ammo. I've never seen anyone carded for ammo at a gun show. NY probably has some asinine laws about it, so try one in PA - they happen all the time. Alternately, Eric at ammoman.com is probably the closest bulk ammo supplier to you. He's due east of Philly in NJ. Prices include shipping and as I understand it, you get a ~10% discount for picking up in person. I know of one guy that did a group buy for a local firearms forum and got a 20-25% discount for picking up 20-25 cases of .308 battle packs - partially due to pick up, partially because of quantity. Call first - they are not always there.
They will sometimes arrange evening and weekend sales. They also regularly run out of particular calibers. Never been to the warehouse, but I understand it's painless (outside of the drive) and easy. If they ship, you either have to have a drivers license on file or show ID to the UPS guy. In person, I don't think he asks for ID - unless you look like a teenager...

If you shoot, you don't need that huge a stockpile of ammo. 1-4 cases will do fine, so long as you have some reloading equipment and supplies. Each shell case can be reloaded about 10 times. Most AK chow, and corrosive primers are an exception. I've pondered buying a few boxes each of a wide variety of calibers I don't own. Partially, so I could just grab a box off the shelf if a friend wants to go shooting and I want to try out their "toys" in a BYOA (Bring Your Own Ammo) situation, and partially, because it would be an invaluable trade good if "the balloon goes up"... Literally - worth it's weight in gold! If you ever get into a fire fight, you have already seriously screwed up. The ability to do so if you back is against the wall and you need to repel an attack - is, well - PRICELESS!

Gold and guns are NOT high on the list of survival preps. See the Freedom Living sub-forum here for more. A garden and joining a food co-op should be much higher on the list of priorities - besides, those things will save you a ton of money!

Hope that helps!

-t

[ScoutsHonor]

One more question. What are the chances of ending up with fake coins when buying from shops? (not from strangers on the street in that area?). The point is: I never saw a golden coin, so I’m not sure I can tell the difference :confused:

Here's a link to a very fine product that you may like:

http://www.fisch.co.za/principle.html (http://www.fisch.co.za/principle.html)

Good luck. :)

[ivflight]

Here's a link to a very fine product that you may like:

http://www.fisch.co.za/principle.html (http://www.fisch.co.za/principle.html)

Good luck. :)

So if that site is correct, testing a gold coin for density (like weighing it then dropping it in a graduated cylinder to get volume) is a pretty secure way of ensuring it's authenticity?

What about silver? Will the same method cover my ass? The site seems to indicate that "rare date" silver coins have been counterfeited but doesn't mention frequency or new mints.

[tremendoustie]

So if that site is correct, testing a gold coin for density (like weighing it then dropping it in a graduated cylinder to get volume) is a pretty secure way of ensuring it's authenticity?

What about silver? Will the same method cover my ass? The site seems to indicate that "rare date" silver coins have been counterfeited but doesn't mention frequency or new mints.

What kind of silver are you thinking about buying? I don't think silver counterfeiting is very common -- it'd hardly be worth it.

And, if you buy from a well known, respectable gold dealer, who has been in business for a while, you should be fine.

[ScoutsHonor]

So if that site is correct, testing a gold coin for density (like weighing it then dropping it in a graduated cylinder to get volume) is a pretty secure way of ensuring it's authenticity?

What about silver? Will the same method cover my ass? The site seems to indicate that "rare date" silver coins have been counterfeited but doesn't mention frequency or new mints.

Here's an update from the owner; I think he'd be very responsive to your questions, so I'd email him. They have an excellent reputation, and I personally own two of these (one for American Eagles, and one for Krugerrands), so a first-hand endorsement-- :-)

------------------------------------------------------
A Letter from The Inventor of THE FISCH
30 January 2010

Dear Gold, Platinum & Silver Buyer

INVENTORY UPDATE 30 January 2010 Ready to Ship! Aside from the Platinum Noble Fisch. Due to a production error, there will be a delay before more are available. Expected in April 2010.
All orders are shipped in the new packaging, not the packaging shown here. A major benefit of this is that all the Wallets can now be held in one holder. The instructions are now in a larger format, simplified and yet more comprehensive.

If, when you bought, the Wallet #1 and #6 were out of stock, and you want one or both these wallets, drop me an email. I will supply them to you at a reduced price.
I am adding to the range - the American Buffalo, the Australian Nugget & Kangaroo and the Austrian Vienna Philharmonic. All 1oz gold versions. I expect to have them around April 2010. Email me to be notified when they are available.
More on the Fisch:

The Fisch is a modern version of the fake gold coin detector. A man named Gideon B. Smith patented the first back in 1853. Over the next 30 years the US Patent Office granted many patents for gold coin detectors. Around 27 patents, if my memory is correct. Fake detectors were a common sight in stores across the country. They were needed; fake gold coins were a real problem. Their detection was a serious business as the buying power of even a small gold coin was great.

An interesting side note is that these fake gold coin detectors are now collectibles. I have just bought a Sovereign detector from an antique dealer in and want to buy some early American gold coin detectors.They cost a lot more than the Fisch!

When I started buying gold in the late 1970’s, I came to realize that I had no idea that what I was buying was actually gold. Apart from what the seller told me, of course! I started researching fake gold coins. I discovered that fakes were a subject dealers and mints didn’t want to talk about. At least, not with a customer.

The more I researched the subject, the more worried I became. Investors like me, not knowing the history of fake gold coins, were blind to the dangers. Who was it that said, "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it"? Inventors fill needs. Judging by the number of fake coin detectors patented when gold coins were in everyday circulation, there was a strong need. Nothing had changed. A modern, accurate, easy to use version of the old fake detectors was needed.

I looked at the simplicity of the principle behind the early designs. (Read Why the Fisch Works (http://www.fisch.co.za/principle.htm)) Based on that principle, my brother, a friend and I designed a detector utilizing modern material, die making tools and injection molders. We called it the Fisch. How we came up with the name is another story.

That was back in 1980. In 1981, I moved to the US and started producing and selling the Fisch. Since then the Fisch has been sold to all the major mints and dealers around the world. (Although reluctant to talk about fakes, they were quick to buy the Fisch!) But I am happiest about the investors in over 50 countries around the world who are now protected by the Fisch.

I still love the letters telling how the Fisch saved someone from buying a fake gold coin in some far off place. My marketing budget has never been big. The Fisch sells mainly by word-of-mouth with some investment advisor and dealer recommendation. Here’s a recent email I got from a customer, only a few days after his order was shipped. He put the Fisch to immediate use:
Hello Ken
I checked a 100 Corona coin today and it was fake, too large around, too thick, and not heavy enough. Your product saved me a fortune.
The Fisch Works! It makes you your own gold coin expert!
I have since moved on to other businesses, but I keep the "shipping" part of Fisch Instruments operating in Sacramento, California from where your order will be shipped. Actually, the shipper's operation is in Roseville, a city adjoining Sacramento. She and her husband operate a postal/shipping service and as a result know everything about shipping. They are fast and efficient.

Since 1996, I am living back in South Africa in a small town on the south coast called Knysna. It is 300 miles east of Cape Town.
While the business may seem like a money spinner, it has not been. But the other pleasures such as shipping the Fisch all around the world, the sales to the big mints and dealers and most of all, giving investors a practical way of protecting themselves from common metal counterfeits has made it worthwhile. I enjoy is the chats with people from all over the US mostly and other countries. I call on Skype over the internet and it costs almost nothing.
After deciding years ago that I would not make any more Fisch, I have made more again. I realized that as much as I thought I would just close the business down, I would miss it when it was gone!

The current range was chosen in the early 80’s and other gold bullion coins have come on the market since then, other have become less popular.


I am hooked into the PayPal payment system so you can order over the Internet with the confidence that your credit card and other information is secure. We still take mail (your check is OK) and fax orders. See the order form. Or you can call me on my US phone line (916) 626 4980 and leave a message. Let me know where you are and a time to call so I don't call you in the middle of the night. I will call you back and take your credit card details.

South African residents: I keep a few Wallet #2’s (Krugerrand/American Eagle) at home which I supply to you at a SA Rand price and you will also save on the postage. Email me.
Sincerely, Ken
My e-mail address is ken@fisch.co.za

The Fisch: Fake Gold and Platinum Coin, Medallion & Small Bar Detection


(http://www.ronpaulforums.com/contact.htm)

[damiengwa]

So I decided to proceed with local coin shops (I’m in NYC) buying with cash. I called “Manfra, Tordella & Brookes, Inc”. ( http://www.mtbcoins.com/ ) and “Gold Standard Refining Corp” at 21 West 47 St - and they both told me that I must show my ID. I asked if they will record my ID info and they said “yes, we need it for our internal records”.

Do they report their clients to IRS or other agencies? Or do they show this info to IRS if they get audited? How does that work?

Please, advice.
Thanks!

Firstly, when buying gold don't buy it all at once, esp in nyc. There are crooks all over the diamond district watching for people like you. The skells call places like 47th st 'watering holes.' One time i parked my car on w4th and before i got out i put my ipod in the glove box. It was about 7pm on a week day with tons of foot traffic up and down the street. I came back to my car 20 minutes later to find my passenger door lock busted out and my ipod gone. I was 'marked.' A year earlier a roomate of mind was depositing $1k at citibank. and some guy just walked up behind him in the lobby and grabbed the cash out of his hand and casually walked out. Don't be the mark bro.

Now as for the reason they want to know who you are when buying coins:

I don't think they will try to confiscate gold in the future... Why?

1)B/c by the time the gov't folks pull their collective heads out their butt and realize that gold is the only money that has not become nearly worthless, they will already be bankrupt and unable to round up the gold.
2) They will confiscate guns first.
2.5) Rich people own a lot of gold, and are generally fairly influential. There is no way they are gonna let another FDR slip by.
3) And even if they do come for your gold, no one was prosecuted for refusing to turn in their gold in '33.
4) According to Ron Paul, they only got 1/3 of the gold coins that were in circulation in '33. All of them were seized from banks vaults & saftey deposit boxes and idiots who obeyed the order.

Moral of the story: don't trust banks, and don't be an obedient little sheep.

Now I didn't encounter any such rule when i bought some silver bullion bars and silver eagles here on long island about 6 mos ago.
So maybe is a nyc thing. You didn't list your address on your license or w-2s as living in NYC, did ya? (NYC income tax is truly voluntary in that regard...)

In any case do not give your name and address no matter what. Keep in mind that the 28% 'collectors tax' on any dollar price appreciation (dollar devaluation), technically still applies and if there is no record of your buy and sell then the IRS will have no records of it either. So that means that when you sell the coins, be sure to report any gain on schedule D of your 1040 tax return so you pay your fair share! ;-)

-D

[Cowlesy]

We aren't gold dealers. If you seek this sort of advice, you should check a gold-bug board. Unless the purpose is to collect survey data for....someone.

[sofia]

try smaller increments...

[Agorism]

Also the IRS can ask local gold dealers to testify against you if they thought you were hiding income and knew you were a gold bug.

Unless you drove a long way away to buy it...

[damiengwa]

If you are going to come into a forum and pose questions baiting people into to telling you how to circumvent a legal system that criminalizes structuring transactions under federal reporting limits expect people not to be friendly.

i think that only applies to cash deposits at banks. Gold coins are merchandise. Its like buying a car with cash, it doesn't matter if its greater or less than some arbitrary number...

[Bern]

If you pay with cash or cash instruments (money orders, cashier's checks) over $10,000, they have to report it:

http://www.gold101.com/faqs/#transactions

http://www.certifiedmint.com/myths_lies.htm

[aragorn]

Thanks everyone.



I've only bought some "junk" (90%) silver coins from him before, though he has carried the .9999 stuff from time to time. Cleaned, verified, not excessively worn. Very happy with my purchases. He also uses like half a roll of tape to secure packages.... :) Selection is pathetic. It's whatever he's found and likes as to quality. Last time he got gold coins, I think he had 12 available. Silver dimes - something like 40 rolls.... New inventory comes in about twice a month. He does this to support his site. It's done on a "group buy" basis. He makes little to nothing on the coins, it's the donations to keep the site running that he's after - and he won't let you buy unless you've donated. MRE depot was doing discounts for members for a while, as was a guy selling medical supplies. I also got in on a group buy of Mylar bags for food storage through the site once.

IMNSHO - silver has a lot more potential to gain value than gold does.

I got the impression you were buying this in case of TSHTF, if so, I would strongly recommend silver and forgetting about gold for the most part. Heavier, still portable but fine grain as to denomination value. What works better in trade? a bunch of coins worth $1.00 - $1.20 each or a single coin worth $300.00 - $600.00?

If you don't have food, water filter, etc. Your priorities are seriously messed up.

-t

Many thanks. Yes, I know about value of silver and thanks for pointing it out, however, in my particular situation I want to be really mobile but silver is rather heavy. One more thing: if I order from Brian at warrifles.com that still would be through an electronic transaction (not cash) which, as far as I understand, we are trying to avoid?



I don't think they will try to confiscate gold in the future... Why?

1)B/c by the time the gov't folks pull their collective heads out their butt and realize that gold is the only money that has not become nearly worthless, they will already be bankrupt and unable to round up the gold.
2) They will confiscate guns first.
2.5) Rich people own a lot of gold, and are generally fairly influential. There is no way they are gonna let another FDR slip by.
3) And even if they do come for your gold, no one was prosecuted for refusing to turn in their gold in '33.
4) According to Ron Paul, they only got 1/3 of the gold coins that were in circulation in '33. All of them were seized from banks vaults & saftey deposit boxes and idiots who obeyed the order.

Moral of the story: don't trust banks, and don't be an obedient little sheep.

-D

Thanks for help. As far as confiscation/no-confiscation. Well, let’s hope you are right, but let me tell you this. I was born in Russia and my parents and grandparents had experienced the whole “beauty” of that communistic trash, including gold confiscations. Back in 1917-1940 those SWAT teams would brake to your house and torture you until you give your last piece of bread and any jewelry of you happened to hide one, then they make you sign all kind of submission forms and then you have about 60% chances of not being taken to a camp or shot dead in you home. All this was REAL. It had been really happening on broad scale. Many of my relatives were murdered in Gulags during Stalin’s era. And it seems like all that was a beta-testing of what they prepared for American people. That is really scary. By “they” I mean basically same globalists who created communism in Russia and now are destroying America. So I hope you are right, but it’s better to be prepared.
Do you think it’s OK to buy PM online then? I don’t think so, since then there definitely will be a record. Cash is still better, would you agree? Oh… and yes, my Brooklyn address is listed on my W2. I got it through my work, they couldn’t do it otherwise.


If you are going to come into a forum and pose questions baiting people into to telling you how to circumvent a legal system that criminalizes structuring transactions under federal reporting limits expect people not to be friendly.

I got that. Thanks for the suggestion.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Thanks everyone.



Many thanks. Yes, I know about value of silver and thanks for pointing it out, however, in my particular situation I want to be really mobile but silver is rather heavy. One more thing: if I order from Brian at warrifles.com that still would be through an electronic transaction (not cash) which, as far as I understand, we are trying to avoid?

He takes checks, MO's and at your own risk - cash.

as yto PayPal, you don't have to state what it's for, and small purchases won't raise red flags.

-t

[aragorn]

He takes checks, MO's and at your own risk - cash.
-t

Maybe I’m being too cautious, but I think that if our government is evil enough to create internet as a tool of watching everyone, and cell phones to track everyone, and poison water to slowly kill everyone – then it must had taken measures to watch all our transactions to monitor if we have guns, gold, natural supplements etc.. (to see who dares to get off the grid). It’s just a logical conclusion I made – and it’s easy for them to accomplish this. Therefore, they had probably setup a database of people who buy something from all of US gun/gold shops. If so, a check to a gun shop would fall into that database (I mean info buyer’s name and address). They don’t have to know exactly what you had bought, they know if bought something – that’s enough to label you. Same goes for wire transfers and credit/debit card transaction. Not sure about money orders.

So I think it’s all being automatically monitored. Does anyone have same conclusion?



as yto PayPal, you don't have to state what it's for, and small purchases won't raise red flags.

-t

Yeah but…. it shows who you are paying to. A gold dealer must be in a database as a gold dealer. Ebay has long been bragging how they cooperate with law enforcements. So I don’t quite understand why people buy online. I think cash is the only way…