Judge Andrew Napolitano on Arizona Law: "This is East-Germany!"

[MRoCkEd]

YouTube - Judge Napolitano: This is East-Germany! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M659xYp8xP8)

[angelatc]

It won't be East Germany until we build the walls and fences.

[LibertarianfromGermany]

Well, actually this is Germany as a whole. Here you are required to always carry identification, you can be asked for prove of identify at any time by the police. I've always admired America for having that freedom of not having the police be allowed to demand identification just for fun. Oh well :(

[angelatc]

Well, actually this is Germany as a whole. Here you are required to always carry identification, you can be asked for prove of identify at any time by the police. I've always admired America for having that freedom of not having the police be allowed to demand identification just for fun. Oh well :(

The police won't be allowed to ask random people for ID. That is still a violation of our constitutional rights. (Technically, I believe they can ask you anything they want, but refusing to show ID is not something you can be detained for.)

This law changes nothing, except that it allows the Arizona state police to enforce existing federal law.

[Stary Hickory]

The police won't be allowed to ask random people for ID. That is still a violation of our constitutional rights. (Technically, I believe they can ask you anything they want, but refusing to show ID is not something you can be detained for.)

This law changes nothing, except that it allows the Arizona state police to enforce existing federal law.

Exactly, people keep making strawman arguments about the AZ bill.

[paulitics]

I still need to read the details of the bill. I think I may have been reactionary about this at first. I think I may have a little more faith in the state of Arizona than the FEDS who will instead use the crisis for their expansion.
Perhaps the police will not randomly ask people to "see their papers", but instead will enforce the law only when the situation requires it.

Instead of letting the illegals go for things like traffic violations, or giving them handouts at the welfare office with no ID, they will instead do their jobs instead of breaking the law.
Another words, fraud will not be tolerated at the taxpayers expense. The gravy train for employers who pay slave wages, and skirt paying the employment taxes will also be over. The ethical businessman will be able to compete.

I don't see a situation where the police will just randomly break into people's homes, but if this is so I am vehemently against this and will speak out against it.

The solution to this problem is rather simple, and I believe the illegals will simply leave on their own accord, instead of being deported.

[Stary Hickory]

I still need to read the details of the bill. I think I may have been reactionary about this at first. I think I may have a little more faith in the state of Arizona than the FEDS who will instead use the crisis for their expansion.
Perhaps the police will not randomly ask people to "see their papers", but instead will enforce the law only when the situation requires it.

Instead of letting the illegals go for things like traffic violations, or giving them handouts at the welfare office with no ID, they will instead do their jobs instead of breaking the law.
Another words, fraud will not be tolerated at the taxpayers expense. The gravy train for employers who pay slave wages, and skirt paying the employment taxes will also be over. The ethical businessman will be able to compete.

I don't see a situation where the police will just randomly break into people's homes, but if this is so I am vehemently against this and will speak out against it.

The solution to this problem is rather simple, and I believe the illegals will simply leave on their own accord, instead of being deported.


Yep, it makes no sense to let illegals apply for benefits, or to walk away from a traffic violation when the cop knows they are not here legally. Almost no one here mentions how utterly absurd it is to not apprehend illegals in these cases. When we don't enforce the law in these cases we send a clear message that illegal immigration is quite alright.

[Pepsi]

It won't be East Germany until we build the walls and fences.
How about a 50 foot high stone wall, all along the border with Mexico. Arm 24 hours a day guards welding machine guns, and at every mile mini gun turrets. With 1 mile after the wall on the American side the border, any ailen that does gets pass, would than have run throw a 1 mile long mine filed. Than another wall, arm with cannons, and tanks behind behind the wall. Than after that another 10 mile long mine filed. If they manage to live, that would than be hunted down, and rounded up and either put into prison or sent back to were they came from, if they are not killed whill being arrested.

[JP2010]

I guess Mexico is East Germany as well, since you can get 2 yrs in prison and you're not allowed to protest when you're an illegal

[Cinderella]

Do you think American citizens who are hispanic in Arizona have a right to feel upset and maybe even scared? They know they now have to carry ID that NO OTHER American citizen has to carry. They have to now PROVE they are a CITIZEN...have you ever had to do that...with threat of detainment or deportation if you couldn't?

Do you think white American citizens in Arizona have any of the above concerns?

Can you honestly now say that white and hispanic AMERICAN CITIZENS (read: I'm not talking about illegal immigrants) are going to be treated as equals now in Arizona?


example: A hispanic from California that was born in the United States takes a vacation to Arizona to visit other hispanic (American Citizen) friends. This man doesn't drive so has no DL and never got a state ID because it isn't required. He was born in a hospital in New York city...but doesn't have a current copy of his birth certificate. While in Arizona he is in a car that is stopped for speeding...the police officer decides that a car full of hispanics is reasonable enough suspicion to ask them for all their "papers". They all give their Arizona state ids or DL...but this man has no identification. When asked his address he gives an address in California...police man becomes more suspicious...decides to detain him until this man can prove he is here legally...only problem is for him to do that he would have to go to New York to get a copy of his BC. So he is detained for days? weeks? months? Until immigration can work it out.

[Chester Copperpot]

The police won't be allowed to ask random people for ID. That is still a violation of our constitutional rights. (Technically, I believe they can ask you anything they want, but refusing to show ID is not something you can be detained for.)

This law changes nothing, except that it allows the Arizona state police to enforce existing federal law.

Did you read section 2.8 ? The cops only need "reasonable suspicion"

if that is a quote from federal law then perhaps when this thing goes to court theyll strike down the federal law too...

its illegal.

[MRoCkEd]

Judge Andrew Napolitano warns of "slippery slope" with Arizona's new law:
YouTube - Judge Andrew Napolitano Warns of "Slippery Slope" with Arizona's New Law on Alex Jones Tv 1/2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSK22S4OtWg&playnext_from=TL&videos=wYlEI9U1l2o&feature=sub)

YouTube - Judge Andrew Napolitano Warns of "Slippery Slope" with Arizona's New Law on Alex Jones Tv 2/2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaCJ7jyztCg&playnext_from=TL&videos=0NiuDNV4bhU&feature=sub)

[JP2010]

Do you think American citizens who are hispanic in Arizona have a right to feel upset and maybe even scared? They know they now have to carry ID that NO OTHER American citizen has to carry. .
Like a driver's license. Nobody has one of tho...oh wait, I found mine in my wallet.

Carry on.

[UtahApocalypse]

Do you think American citizens who are hispanic in Arizona have a right to feel upset and maybe even scared? They know they now have to carry ID that NO OTHER American citizen has to carry. They have to now PROVE they are a CITIZEN...have you ever had to do that...with threat of detainment or deportation if you couldn't?

Do you think white American citizens in Arizona have any of the above concerns?

Can you honestly now say that white and hispanic AMERICAN CITIZENS (read: I'm not talking about illegal immigrants) are going to be treated as equals now in Arizona?


example: A hispanic from California that was born in the United States takes a vacation to Arizona to visit other hispanic (American Citizen) friends. This man doesn't drive so has no DL and never got a state ID because it isn't required. He was born in a hospital in New York city...but doesn't have a current copy of his birth certificate. While in Arizona he is in a car that is stopped for speeding...the police officer decides that a car full of hispanics is reasonable enough suspicion to ask them for all their "papers". They all give their Arizona state ids or DL...but this man has no identification. When asked his address he gives an address in California...police man becomes more suspicious...decides to detain him until this man can prove he is here legally...only problem is for him to do that he would have to go to New York to get a copy of his BC. So he is detained for days? weeks? months? Until immigration can work it out.

You make a valid pint. I however do not accept that someone can break the law and just walk away. This may not be the solution, but we need one soon as the illegal immigration problem has broke many states. I realize the first step is to end the handouts.

[orenbus]

Not sure if anyone has posted this video yet, a interesting comment Ron Paul made at 7:40

YouTube - RON PAUL 101 - IMMIGRATION (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfJFcSF80dE)

Here is a quote from Ron Paul during the 2008 campaign ABC debates, for those that can't load the video:


"I get a little bit worried when we talk about the tamper proof ID for Illegals or Immigrants because how do you do that? Anybody that is an immigrant or looks like an immigrant would have to have an ID and then you can't discriminate so then everybody is going to have to have the ID. I think it's opening the door for the national ID, we should be very very careful about that."

And at 5:08


"Because of our economic conditions we do need workers, but if we had a truely free market economy the illegal immigrats would not be the scapegoat. We would probably need them and they would be acceptable, but because of the economic conditions they have become the scapegoat."

[erowe1]

This kind of sensationalism and exaggeration is my biggest gripe against Napolitano. He does it a lot. It probably goes with the territory of being a TV personality. But it makes him less of a reliable resource.

[Deborah K]

Did you read section 2.8 ? The cops only need "reasonable suspicion"

if that is a quote from federal law then perhaps when this thing goes to court theyll strike down the federal law too...

its illegal.

Mike, AZ gave themselves permission with this law to enforce existing immigration laws because the Federal gov't refuses to do it. If immigration laws were good enough for the Feds, then why all of the sudden are they illegal for the state?

I reject the argument that this will turn AZ into a police state. To what end? People will just leave the state. It remains to be seen. I am more concerned about the unintended consequences of this measure. I predicted many months ago that immigration will be the flash-point in this country because people insist on making this about race instead of the issues of respecting our laws and the impact on the economy. Again - if Canadians were flooding across by millions per year, the issues would remain the same.

[Deborah K]

This kind of sensationalism and exaggeration is my biggest gripe against Napolitano. He does it a lot. It probably goes with the territory of being a TV personality. But it makes him less of a reliable resource.

I agree. He has boxed himself into a corner on this one.

[AuH20]

Do you think American citizens who are hispanic in Arizona have a right to feel upset and maybe even scared? They know they now have to carry ID that NO OTHER American citizen has to carry. They have to now PROVE they are a CITIZEN...have you ever had to do that...with threat of detainment or deportation if you couldn't?

Do you think white American citizens in Arizona have any of the above concerns?

Can you honestly now say that white and hispanic AMERICAN CITIZENS (read: I'm not talking about illegal immigrants) are going to be treated as equals now in Arizona?


example: A hispanic from California that was born in the United States takes a vacation to Arizona to visit other hispanic (American Citizen) friends. This man doesn't drive so has no DL and never got a state ID because it isn't required. He was born in a hospital in New York city...but doesn't have a current copy of his birth certificate. While in Arizona he is in a car that is stopped for speeding...the police officer decides that a car full of hispanics is reasonable enough suspicion to ask them for all their "papers". They all give their Arizona state ids or DL...but this man has no identification. When asked his address he gives an address in California...police man becomes more suspicious...decides to detain him until this man can prove he is here legally...only problem is for him to do that he would have to go to New York to get a copy of his BC. So he is detained for days? weeks? months? Until immigration can work it out.

It's called a driver's license. Stop being so melodramatic.

[MRoCkEd]

Listen to the Alex Jones interview. They discuss the issue more in depth.

[angelatc]

Do you think American citizens who are hispanic in Arizona have a right to feel upset and maybe even scared? They know they now have to carry ID that NO OTHER American citizen has to carry. They have to now PROVE they are a CITIZEN...have you ever had to do that...with threat of detainment or deportation if you couldn't? .

It isn't about what I think. It's about what the good people of Arizona think.

Do you think that Arizona citizens have no right to be upset about their economy and scared of the crime and poverty that is sweeping across the border into their community?

They have always had to do that. Legal immigrants are required to carry their documentation on them at all times. Naturalized citizens and Americans of Hispanic origins are routinely caught up in immigration raids, and they aren't released until their citizenship is confirmed.

The law doesn't even say that people have to carry ID. The law says that LE must verify citizenship when they are verifying identity. How is this significantally different than the process of checking for outstanding warrants when checking identity?

Again, these laws are presenting absolutely nothing new. They are merely giving AZ law enforcement concurrent jurisdiction to enforce federal law.

[Cinderella]

It's called a driver's license. Stop being so melodramatic.

Not everyone has a drivers license...so should all hispanics/asians/brown people have to carry their SS card everywhere? or their BC?? i mean you never know when the cops will think youre doing something "suspicious" and ask you to provide your papers!

[angelatc]

I realize the first step is to end the handouts.

Ending the handouts and subsidies to illegal immigrants is being accomplished by dealing with the illegal immigrants.

[angelatc]

Not everyone has a drivers license...so should all hispanics/asians/brown people have to carry their SS card everywhere? or their BC?? i mean you never know when the cops will think youre doing something "suspicious" and ask you to provide your papers!

You clearly have not even bothered to read the law, nor are you familiar with the long established legal concepts of probable cause and reasonable suspicion.

[ClayTrainor]

Listen to the Alex Jones interview. They discuss the issue more in depth.

+1

It was a pretty good interview.

[Cinderella]

When you drive you are required to carry identification at all times to prove you have a licence. A person simply walking down to the grocery store or with their kids to the park minding their own business does not need a DL. This law will inturn allow police officers to stop anbody at any time to constantly prove their birth right. Imagine that everywhere you go you have to be constantly harrassed by law enforcement to constantly defend your birth right in this country. This isn't about the simple routine stopping of a car. This crosses to everywhere you go and where you live where people will be required to constantly defend their rights in this country.

[Deborah K]

When you drive you are required to carry identification at all times to prove you have a licence. A person simply walking down to the grocery store or with their kids to the park minding their own business does not need a DL. This law will inturn allow police officers to stop anbody at any time to constantly prove their birth right. Imagine that everywhere you go you have to be constantly harrassed by law enforcement to constantly defend your birth right in this country. This isn't about the simple routine stopping of a car. This crosses to everywhere you go and where you live where people will be required to constantly defend their rights in this country.

Show me exactly where in the law it states that.

[angelatc]

When you drive you are required to carry identification at all times to prove you have a licence. A person simply walking down to the grocery store or with their kids to the park minding their own business does not need a DL. This law will inturn allow police officers to stop anbody at any time to constantly prove their birth right. Imagine that everywhere you go you have to be constantly harrassed by law enforcement to constantly defend your birth right in this country. This isn't about the simple routine stopping of a car. This crosses to everywhere you go and where you live where people will be required to constantly defend their rights in this country.

This is simply not true. If you have to resort to lying to make your point, then apparently you don't really have a point.

Like I said above: You clearly have not even bothered to read the law, nor are you familiar with the long established legal concepts of probable cause and reasonable suspicion.

[Cinderella]

Can you give me an example of what "reasonable suspicion" is???

Because I'm pretty sure the 1st check mark police officers are going to have is "Hispanic? CHECK!". And then what after that? Doesn't speak English? CHECK..Is that a crime now? What if they are just CHOOSING not to speak English...is that a crime? Is there no freedom to choose which language you want to speak???

Define "reasonable suspicion" for me.

check out this mans story...http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Man-says-he-was-racially-targeted-forced-to-provide-birth-certificate-91769419.html

[Cinderella]

You ignore the fact that there is already an example of this happening...and this was before the law is in effect. It will only get worse

[Deborah K]

Can you give me an example of what "reasonable suspicion" is???

Because I'm pretty sure the 1st check mark police officers are going to have is "Hispanic? CHECK!". And then what after that? Doesn't speak English? CHECK..Is that a crime now? What if they are just CHOOSING not to speak English...is that a crime? Is there no freedom to choose which language you want to speak???

Define "reasonable suspicion" for me.

check out this mans story...http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Man-says-he-was-racially-targeted-forced-to-provide-birth-certificate-91769419.html

Cinderella, your argument is emotion-driven, not fact-driven. Gov. Brewer signed an executive order reiterating the illegally of racial profiling - just for good measure.

Were you this upset about the enforcement of immigration laws when it was strictly in the hands of the feds? Because it's the same law, only now AZ can enforce it themselves since the Fed refuses to. Want to take a gander as to why the federal gov't refuses to enforce immigration laws? Two reasons: 1. the more illegals there are here, the bigger the voting block for the party who votes in amnesty, which means even bigger more intrusive gov't. 2. The eventual merging of the three countries on this continent will be much easier to accomplish. Is that what you want?

[Cinderella]

I am talking about LEGAL American citizens, of Hispanic origin, who have perhaps been naturalized or were born here. THEY will be treated the same as illegal immigrants are treated.

Here's a scenario: A 25-year-old Hispanic man who was born in Phoenix is taking a jog down town. He's carrying no ID. The laws of this country do not require that we carry ID at all times. Some cop sees him and tells himself that this guy looks suspicious. He stops the guy and asks him to prove that he's an American Citizen. He cannot. He doesn't have any ID. So the cop ships him to ICE. Is this fair?

Are we suggesting that ALL Hispanic people need to carry proof of citizenship?

[Cinderella]

So its ok for one group of people to be treated differently and have to go by a different set of rules than every one else simply because of the color of their skin? ...There are people here who were BORN here that have brown skin and speak with an accent because they were raised in a home where English is the second language. And because of that, they will be treated differently... Yeah, that's bad.

I think this is the very aspect of the issue that is bothering a lot of people, yet no one seems to have a valid point that makes stopping a legal citizens who is not required to carry but now has to because of this law okay.

Another point to be made is that by stopping someone and asking them to prove their citizenship, you are then accusing them of a crime to which the only way to prove innocence is to provide ID. In America, when one is accused of a crime it is the accusers responsibility to prove guilt. It is not the accused's responsibility to prove their innocence. Which is what this law does.

I'm not concerned about illegal immigrants. I'm concerned about the fact that this law violates the rights of law abiding citizens (of course the law itself does not, but no one can deny this will ultimately be the result) and flips the notion of innocent until proven guilty on its head.

This, for me, is another sad example of Americans willing to give up their freedoms in order to feel safer.

[xd9fan]

the liberty movement will go backwards if it doesnt get THIS one right. You will loose people on this issue.

The country has a right to sovereignty. If this Federal Govt wont care...then States will. The judge is waaaaay off on this one.

2 issues that will cause another civil war IMHO
1. the border
2. the debt

tell me how both are going judge!!!

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/apr/27/gops-graham-no-immigration-bill-until-2012/

read this link.......janet thinks as the head of Homeland security that lindsay asked an unfair question. My God If I was Lindsey I would have lit her up ...................on tv or not................The pure rage I feel on this issue alone....

[Deborah K]

I am talking about LEGAL American citizens, of Hispanic origin, who have perhaps been naturalized or were born here. THEY will be treated the same as illegal immigrants are treated.

Here's a scenario: A 25-year-old Hispanic man who was born in Phoenix is taking a jog down town. He's carrying no ID. The laws of this country do not require that we carry ID at all times. Some cop sees him and tells himself that this guy looks suspicious. He stops the guy and asks him to prove that he's an American Citizen. He cannot. He doesn't have any ID. So the cop ships him to ICE. Is this fair?

Are we suggesting that ALL Hispanic people need to carry proof of citizenship?


I think the "reasonable suspicion" clause is being defined more clearly as we speak since it is a sticking point -as it should be.

But, having stated that -Do you go anywhere without ID? I don't. I think it's a mistake to do so mainly because, if something happens to me, I want rescuers to know how to get a hold of my family. In this day and age I think it is unwise to go without ID.

[dannno]

Exactly, people keep making strawman arguments about the AZ bill.

The Judge does not MAKE strawman arguments :mad:

You just aren't willing to listen to the truth because you are hyper focused on illegals.

[Cinderella]

I AM concerned about laws that magnify the potential for abuse of citizens.

[dannno]

But, having stated that -Do you go anywhere without ID? I don't. I think it's a mistake to do so mainly because, if something happens to me, I want rescuers to know how to get a hold of my family. In this day and age I think it is unwise to go without ID.

By law, natural born citizens do not have to carry ID. This law will allow completely law abiding citizens to be thrown in jail and have their fourth amendment rights violated. Our founding fathers were smart, they wrote the fourth amendment in the Constitution for GOOD REASON. No reason to go muck it all up!

[AuH20]

The Judge does not MAKE strawman arguments :mad:

You just aren't willing to listen to the truth because you are hyper focused on illegals.


The judge is predominantly relying on 'slippery slope' based concerns of potential abuses. The law as written does not discriminate. Now we must see what occurs when it's applied with the human element.

[Deborah K]

So its ok for one group of people to be treated differently and have to go by a different set of rules than every one else simply because of the color of their skin? ...There are people here who were BORN here that have brown skin and speak with an accent because they were raised in a home where English is the second language. And because of that, they will be treated differently... Yeah, that's bad.

I think this is the very aspect of the issue that is bothering a lot of people, yet no one seems to have a valid point that makes stopping a legal citizens who is not required to carry but now has to because of this law okay.

Another point to be made is that by stopping someone and asking them to prove their citizenship, you are then accusing them of a crime to which the only way to prove innocence is to provide ID. In America, when one is accused of a crime it is the accusers responsibility to prove guilt. It is not the accused's responsibility to prove their innocence. Which is what this law does.

I'm not concerned about illegal immigrants. I'm concerned about the fact that this law violates the rights of law abiding citizens (of course the law itself does not, but no one can deny this will ultimately be the result) and flips the notion of innocent until proven guilty on its head.

This, for me, is another sad example of Americans willing to give up their freedoms in order to feel safer.

You're back to racial profiling again. It remains to be seen if this turns out to violate anyone's rights. I'm sure the opponents of this law will let us know in short order.

[dannno]

I guess Mexico is East Germany as well, since you can get 2 yrs in prison and you're not allowed to protest when you're an illegal

You're right, we should become a tyrannical state like Mexico :mad:

[dannno]

You clearly have not even bothered to read the law, nor are you familiar with the long established legal concepts of probable cause and reasonable suspicion.

Great, so please tell me what reasonable suspicion is for an illegal.

I've been waiting ALL WEEK for one of you to answer this. The governor can't even answer it :mad:

Read the law AGAIN, they can ask ANYBODY for papers who they suspect of being illegal.. think about that logically for a minute, ANYBODY can be suspected of being illegal because illegal citizens participate in the same lawful activities we do! And YES, they can ask for your papers based on suspicion of being an illegal, I don't know why there is a segment on this board who won't admit that yet. You think you're smarter than the Judge :mad:

[Cinderella]

Very touchy subject matter! Take the hate and emotion out of the equation and apply some common sense. I've been pondering this law a while now and have come to a conclusion.

This law really IS a loss of liberty for American Citizens. Hispanics in Arizona will live in perpetual fear, legal AND illegal. I'm not being racist, just real. Most know that over half of the illegals in this country are Mexican. All you have to do is search for the statistics, pewhispanic.org has numbers. This law will cost Americans untold millions of taxpayer dollars in litigation alone.

I believe Americans are being manipulated to fulfill a Political Agenda.

Let's talk about "Reasonable Suspicion" or maybe "Probable Cause" even. Just about any law enforcement officer will tell you that there are so many obscure laws on the books of most cities and towns, that it's REAL easy to come up with a reason to stop and question you. Thousands of towns across the US have vagrancy laws and odd curfews etc, etc... I could be out taking a walk in a town I'd lived in for over 15 years and be stopped, ID'd and questioned for an extended period of time because I supposedly match a description.

This law would work in a fantasy world where there is no anger and hate. It will effectively drive ALL Hispanics from Arizona, legal and illegal. Have you ever had the momentary fear of "Oh SH**, I forgot my Driver License" while driving down the road. Imagine having that fear walking down a sidewalk in town.

I agree, YES illegal immigration IS a major problem here in America and something needs to be done. I don't think this law is it. And I wonder why more Americans haven't INSISTED that the administration DO SOMETHING about it before now. Sometimes I wonder why a majority of American population is knee jerk reactionary to long running issues. It isn't like this is something new, this has been an issue for a LONG time.

Seriously guys, everyone on here that is saying it's OK to have to carry papers proving your citizenship surely aren't the same ones that are crying conspiracy and loss of liberty because of the National ID plan.

The National ID WOULD provide citizenship information, a Driver License or State ID wouldn't. Just look what is required on an I-9 form for employment eligibility. Several states have started asking for Birth Certificates to renew Driver Licenses to comply.

I learned many years ago that with some people, you give them an inch & they take a mile. Is this where this whole thing is headed? You know, I have NO desire to have to be able to prove my citizenship at the drop of a hat. I have a tendancy to react firmly when I feel my rights are being infringed upon no matter who you are! That has led to some interesting situations!

I'm starting to think it's a diversion and maybe a bullet point for the Administration to drive home why the National ID is needed.

Don't let these wing-nut politicians twist your thinking. You really don't think they have our best interests at heart now do you?

[Deborah K]

Very touchy subject matter! Take the hate and emotion out of the equation and apply some common sense. I've been pondering this law a while now and have come to a conclusion.

This law really IS a loss of liberty for American Citizens. Hispanics in Arizona will live in perpetual fear, legal AND illegal. I'm not being racist, just real. Most know that over half of the illegals in this country are Mexican. All you have to do is search for the statistics, pewhispanic.org has numbers. This law will cost Americans untold millions of taxpayer dollars in litigation alone.

I believe Americans are being manipulated to fulfill a Political Agenda.

Let's talk about "Reasonable Suspicion" or maybe "Probable Cause" even. Just about any law enforcement officer will tell you that there are so many obscure laws on the books of most cities and towns, that it's REAL easy to come up with a reason to stop and question you. Thousands of towns across the US have vagrancy laws and odd curfews etc, etc... I could be out taking a walk in a town I'd lived in for over 15 years and be stopped, ID'd and questioned for an extended period of time because I supposedly match a description.

This law would work in a fantasy world where there is no anger and hate. It will effectively drive ALL Hispanics from Arizona, legal and illegal. Have you ever had the momentary fear of "Oh SH**, I forgot my Driver License" while driving down the road. Imagine having that fear walking down a sidewalk in town.

I agree, YES illegal immigration IS a major problem here in America and something needs to be done. I don't think this law is it. And I wonder why more Americans haven't INSISTED that the administration DO SOMETHING about it before now. Sometimes I wonder why a majority of American population is knee jerk reactionary to long running issues. It isn't like this is something new, this has been an issue for a LONG time.

Seriously guys, everyone on here that is saying it's OK to have to carry papers proving your citizenship surely aren't the same ones that are crying conspiracy and loss of liberty because of the National ID plan.

The National ID WOULD provide citizenship information, a Driver License or State ID wouldn't. Just look what is required on an I-9 form for employment eligibility. Several states have started asking for Birth Certificates to renew Driver Licenses to comply.

I learned many years ago that with some people, you give them an inch & they take a mile. Is this where this whole thing is headed? You know, I have NO desire to have to be able to prove my citizenship at the drop of a hat. I have a tendancy to react firmly when I feel my rights are being infringed upon no matter who you are! That has led to some interesting situations!

I'm starting to think it's a diversion and maybe a bullet point for the Administration to drive home why the National ID is needed.

Don't let these wing-nut politicians twist your thinking. You really don't think they have our best interests at heart now do you?

Real ID passed in 05.

[bobbyw24]

It won't be East Germany until we build the walls and fences.

Right-the judge is plain wrong here and in need of a history lesson.

[angelatc]

Great, so please tell me what reasonable suspicion is for an illegal.

I've been waiting ALL WEEK for one of you to answer this. The governor can't even answer it :mad:

Read the law AGAIN, they can ask ANYBODY for papers who they suspect of being illegal.. think about that logically for a minute, ANYBODY can be suspected of being illegal because illegal citizens participate in the same lawful activities we do! And YES, they can ask for your papers based on suspicion of being an illegal, I don't know why there is a segment on this board who won't admit that yet. You think you're smarter than the Judge :mad:

No, they can't. That is unconstitutional. State law can't change that. Federal law can't change that. Only an amendment can change that. The police can't walk up and ask anybody for ID. (Well, to be technical they can, but that person can't be detained for refusing to present it.)

Just because you don't understand the legal definition of those phrases doesn't mean there isn't a legal definition of those phrases. (Not that I fully understand them either, but I do acknowledge there are definitions!)

You're pretending that there are no legal precedents for reasonable suspicion and probable cause when in fact, we have a long legal history of establishing those very precedents. Every time somebody has painted some heart wrenching story, one of our LF legal eagles has cited legal rebuttals to those flawed theories.

According the the NYT article, which you must have skipped in favor of the 4409 rerun, the most likely scenario is an officer pulling over a minivan in the desert, on a stretch of road known to be a human trafficking route. None of the 12 people in the van speak English, and none of them have any ID.

Here:
“Reasonable suspicion” is a meaningless term that will permit police misconduct. Over the past four decades, federal courts have issued hundreds of opinions defining those two words. The Arizona law didn’t invent the concept: Precedents list the factors that can contribute to reasonable suspicion; when several are combined, the “totality of circumstances” that results may create reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed.

For example, the Arizona law is most likely to come into play after a traffic stop. A police officer pulls a minivan over for speeding. A dozen passengers are crammed in. None has identification. The highway is a known alien-smuggling corridor. The driver is acting evasively. Those factors combine to create reasonable suspicion that the occupants are not in the country legally.

and here:


It is unfair to demand that aliens carry their documents with them. It is true that the Arizona law makes it a misdemeanor for an alien to fail to carry certain documents. “Now, suddenly, if you don’t have your papers ... you’re going to be harassed,” the president said. “That’s not the right way to go.” But since 1940, it has been a federal crime for aliens to fail to keep such registration documents with them. The Arizona law simply adds a state penalty to what was already a federal crime. Moreover, as anyone who has traveled abroad knows, other nations have similar documentation requirements.

[silentshout]

I forsee "citizenship checkpoints" ala DUI checkpoints popping up. It's only a matter of time imo.

[silentshout]

the liberty movement will go backwards if it doesnt get THIS one right. You will loose people on this issue.

The country has a right to sovereignty. If this Federal Govt wont care...then States will. The judge is waaaaay off on this one.

2 issues that will cause another civil war IMHO
1. the border
2. the debt

tell me how both are going judge!!!

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/apr/27/gops-graham-no-immigration-bill-until-2012/

read this link.......janet thinks as the head of Homeland security that lindsay asked an unfair question. My God If I was Lindsey I would have lit her up ...................on tv or not................The pure rage I feel on this issue alone....


Well, to be fair, many people are really just mad that they a) don't have jobs and b) that their homes have lost value. And no one looks at themselves, they like to blame others. A good friend of mine could have paid off her small mortgage in 2006 when home prices were high here in CA. But noo, she took out a huge HELOC and went hog wild with spending. Now, she lost her job and is in foreclosure..and she's going to tea parties and yelling about illegals and Obama causing this but of course it's not her fault at all. it's sad. I would bet there's many more like her. People need to wake up and see that THEY are also part of this problem.

[dannno]

No, they can't. That is unconstitutional. State law can't change that.

The law DOES change that, though.. it changes based on the fact that they can ask anybody for ID if they suspect them of being illegal even though they may be engaged in completely lawful activity.. they don't HAVE to be pulled over for speeding, according to the law. The lawful contact can be engaged solely on the fact that they suspect them of being illegal. The bill spells it out in less than 10 lines.





According the the NYT article, which you must have skipped in favor of the 4409 rerun, the most likely scenario is an officer pulling over a minivan in the desert, on a stretch of road known to be a human trafficking route. None of the 12 people in the van speak English, and none of them have any ID.

Here:

and here:


Oh man, so if there is a van full of people with brown skin driving down certain highways and the driver is nervous the cops can ask them all for their IDs?? What if there are only 11 people in the van? 10? 7? I just want to know the maximum amount of people I can smuggle without getting harassed by police..

Probable cause is supposed to be something like seeing a bloody knife in the car when you are looking for a murder suspect who used a knife.. and in the case of drug laws, which I of course disagree with, however the legal precedent has been set that they need to see the drugs, smell the drugs, or suspect somebody is on drugs which can be done by looking at the pupils and seeing how they act.. and all that stuff is pretty borderline, BUT AT LEAST THERE IS SOMETHING SOLID that they can use as justification for a search.. but to say that the cops should be able to ID everybody in a car because they are on a certain highway, the driver is nervous, they have brown skin and there are a lot of them is not Constitutional.. you CAN'T have any solid probable cause without looking at their papers, and you can't see their papers without asking.. . and this bill allows them to look at them which will violate citizens 4th amendment rights.

[Shredmonster]

Do you think American citizens who are hispanic in Arizona have a right to feel upset and maybe even scared? They know they now have to carry ID that NO OTHER American citizen has to carry. They have to now PROVE they are a CITIZEN...have you ever had to do that...with threat of detainment or deportation if you couldn't?

Do you think white American citizens in Arizona have any of the above concerns?

Can you honestly now say that white and hispanic AMERICAN CITIZENS (read: I'm not talking about illegal immigrants) are going to be treated as equals now in Arizona?


example: A hispanic from California that was born in the United States takes a vacation to Arizona to visit other hispanic (American Citizen) friends. This man doesn't drive so has no DL and never got a state ID because it isn't required. He was born in a hospital in New York city...but doesn't have a current copy of his birth certificate. While in Arizona he is in a car that is stopped for speeding...the police officer decides that a car full of hispanics is reasonable enough suspicion to ask them for all their "papers". They all give their Arizona state ids or DL...but this man has no identification. When asked his address he gives an address in California...police man becomes more suspicious...decides to detain him until this man can prove he is here legally...only problem is for him to do that he would have to go to New York to get a copy of his BC. So he is detained for days? weeks? months? Until immigration can work it out.

Give me a break. Boo friggen hoo. It's all about feelings now huh?

Everybody that has a drivers license carries it which is most people and most legal hispanics.

You are citing the most extreme case to prove a B.S. point. If the guy was born here and is detained he can prove it.

Know what - if we did not have a problem with illegals in the first place and with the FEDS not enforcing things we would not be discussing this.

Tell your woes to the family of the guy that was shot and killed.

Nothing personal but this point of view makes me sick.

[JeNNiF00F00]

Right-the judge is plain wrong here and in need of a history lesson.

And what do you do for a living? I mean the man WAS a judge for a reason. :rolleyes:

[JeNNiF00F00]

Give me a break. Boo friggen hoo. It's all about feelings now huh?

Everybody that has a drivers license carries it which is most people and most legal hispanics.

You are citing the most extreme case to prove a B.S. point. If the guy was born here and is detained he can prove it.

Know what - if we did not have a problem with illegals in the first place and with the FEDS not enforcing things we would not be discussing this.

Tell your woes to the family of the guy that was shot and killed.

Nothing personal but this point of view makes me sick.

I dont carry mine. Besides illegals can obtain a drivers license, and even a SS#.

People are shot and killed all the time, BLAME THAT ON PROHIBITION. :rolleyes:

[bobbyw24]

And what do you do for a living? I mean the man WAS a judge for a reason. :rolleyes:

So-judges don't know everything and they are neither infallible nor omniscient. I know: I am a lawyer (and a history major).

East Germany was terrible. I am not saying I like the Ariz. law, but East Germans were much worse off than anyone in Ariz.

BTW-I like Judge Nap. I just think his statement is hyperbolic.

[JeNNiF00F00]

So-judges don't know everything and they are neither infallible nor omniscient. I know: I am a lawyer (and a history major).

East Germany was terrible. I am not saying I like the Ariz. law, but East Germans were much worse off than anyone in Ariz.

BTW-I like Judge Nap. I just think his statement is hyperbolic.

You seem to be real busy on the forums, which is why I ask.

[bobbyw24]

You seem to be real busy on the forums, which is why I ask.

Oh--I post early in the morning and at lunch and have interns post articles.

[libertyjam]

I forsee "citizenship checkpoints" ala DUI checkpoints popping up. It's only a matter of time imo.

Guess what? Border Patrol has been doing this for quite some time now already.

[dannno]

Guess what? Border Patrol has been doing this for quite some time now already.

Ya, that's what we need more of, checkpoints :rolleyes:

[Fr3shjive]

Guess what? Border Patrol has been doing this for quite some time now already.

White people- "Move along"

Me (American citizen, 5th generation)- "Hold it there darkie. Papers please"

[libertyjam]

Ya, that's what we need more of, checkpoints :rolleyes:

Well I doubt the statie's will be setting up checkpoints being undermanned and underfunded and all, since catching an IA to turn over to ICE would net them no revenue, unlike a DUI checkpoint, but I could be wrong.

[JP2010]

You're right, we should become a tyrannical state like Mexico :mad:
Right. Mexico is a tyrannical state, except that it isn't.

Here's a dollar. Go buy a clue.

[Vessol]

So-judges don't know everything and they are neither infallible nor omniscient. I know: I am a lawyer (and a history major).

East Germany was terrible. I am not saying I like the Ariz. law, but East Germans were much worse off than anyone in Ariz.

BTW-I like Judge Nap. I just think his statement is hyperbolic.

This is a step towards East Germany.

Go to this thread and listen to the Judge have more time to speak about it.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=242300

[Pericles]

the liberty movement will go backwards if it doesnt get THIS one right. You will loose people on this issue.

The country has a right to sovereignty. If this Federal Govt wont care...then States will. The judge is waaaaay off on this one.

2 issues that will cause another civil war IMHO
1. the border
2. the debt

tell me how both are going judge!!!

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/apr/27/gops-graham-no-immigration-bill-until-2012/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/apr/27/gops-graham-no-immigration-bill-until-2012/)

read this link.......janet thinks as the head of Homeland security that lindsay asked an unfair question. My God If I was Lindsey I would have lit her up ...................on tv or not................The pure rage I feel on this issue alone....

Correct - this is very important that we get this right.

First issue is physical presence in the US - so the question is "Does anyone anywhere in the world have a right to enter the US?" It would seem a number of members would answer yes to this question (natural rights, freedom of movement implied by that, etc.), and while that is fine as a philosophical position, as long as it is contrary to law based on the power of Congress to set a uniform rule for naturalization, that can't be a sound basis for opposition to the will of the citizens of AZ as expressed in law.

You can oppose it on 4A grounds, but make sure the reason for opposition is Constitutionally sound based on prohibited actions of government to anyone, and not based on personal view of immigration policy. As long as there is a USA, the country has the authority to limit residence to its citizens. How that end is accomplished is the debate and the limits of potential courses of action are prescribed on the BoR.

[Pericles]

This is a step towards East Germany.

Go to this thread and listen to the Judge have more time to speak about it.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=242300 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=242300)

OTOH, the crime rate in East Germany was rather low.......... it just came at the cost of personal liberty, and this brings us back to the whole crime / terrorism debate.

[Deborah K]

Well, to be fair, many people are really just mad that they a) don't have jobs and b) that their homes have lost value. And no one looks at themselves, they like to blame others. A good friend of mine could have paid off her small mortgage in 2006 when home prices were high here in CA. But noo, she took out a huge HELOC and went hog wild with spending. Now, she lost her job and is in foreclosure..and she's going to tea parties and yelling about illegals and Obama causing this but of course it's not her fault at all. it's sad. I would bet there's many more like her. People need to wake up and see that THEY are also part of this problem.

Your friend is an ignorant dumbass, and is no reflection on me or anyone I know who attends Tea Parties. Tea Parties goers, by and large, are for personal accountability. Your friend is coat-tailing.

[Cinderella]

If we make the police the "cop, judge, and jury,” it is inevitable, someone's civil rights will be walked on. Our law enforcement is already overworked as it is.

[dannno]

Correct - this is very important that we get this right.

First issue is physical presence in the US - so the question is "Does anyone anywhere in the world have a right to enter the US?" It would seem a number of members would answer yes to this question (natural rights, freedom of movement implied by that, etc.), and while that is fine as a philosophical position, as long as it is contrary to law based on the power of Congress to set a uniform rule for naturalization, that can't be a sound basis for opposition to the will of the citizens of AZ as expressed in law.

You can oppose it on 4A grounds, but make sure the reason for opposition is Constitutionally sound based on prohibited actions of government to anyone, and not based on personal view of immigration policy. As long as there is a USA, the country has the authority to limit residence to its citizens. How that end is accomplished is the debate and the limits of potential courses of action are prescribed on the BoR.

I don't think the Judge is opposing the fact that they are allowed to make the law, he is opposed to the fact they are doing it because it will cause abuse.

Same with Ron Paul.

Same with most of us here.. we're not asking Obama to put on a Superman costume and swoop in and stop them, we're just saying they are making a big mistake.

[Winston Smith]

It's called a driver's license. Stop being so melodramatic.

It goes WAY beyond that. Remember, this was used as an excuse for the Real ID card. It eventually will be applied to all of us "white" people too. Just like gun registration/license & marriage licenses, which originally were only enforced on "black" people after the civil war. (according to Badnarik, who has an awesome constitution class free online (http://www.constitutionpreservation.org/media-archive/constitution-class), 8hrs though...)

"To battle these grievous violations I authored a bill for Oklahoma to opt out of 'Real ID'. After many threats by Homeland Security and many doubters saying the legislation would not pass; Oklahoma did opt-out. Since Oklahoma's pioneering legislation, 38 other states have copied my initial bill and have opted out of 'Real ID'. Last year, Janet Napolitano declared 'Real ID' essentially dead because the states just wouldn't cooperate. One man standing in the gap can change the course of history." State Senator Randy Brogdon (OK/R) (http://www.randybrogdon.com/node/3573)... Randy is running for governor of OK, by the way... he's addressed this ["show me your papers"] issue many times...

[low preference guy]

The judge is predominantly relying on 'slippery slope' based concerns of potential abuses. The law as written does not discriminate. Now we must see what occurs when it's applied with the human element.

Bullshit. The Judge is criticizing that the police can stop innocent people suspected of being illegal immigrants right now, even if they hasn't been accused of any crime. That means the police have to power to demand papers of American Citizens, RIGHT NOW. Did you really listen to the interview?

[low preference guy]

Right. Mexico is a tyrannical state, except that it isn't.

Here's a dollar. Go buy a clue.

Dude, what the fuck are you talking about? Mexico has nothing like the Bill of Rights, they have a national ID card and can ask you for your ID for whatever reason anytime. Saying Mexico is not a tyrannical state is laughable. They are EVEN MORE tyrannical than the United States.

[Winston Smith]

Correct - this is very important that we get this right.

First issue is physical presence in the US - so the question is "Does anyone anywhere in the world have a right to enter the US?" It would seem a number of members would answer yes to this question (natural rights, freedom of movement implied by that, etc.), and while that is fine as a philosophical position, as long as it is contrary to law based on the power of Congress to set a uniform rule for naturalization, that can't be a sound basis for opposition to the will of the citizens of AZ as expressed in law.

I disagree with you here. I think the only way to stop injustice is to exert your right to exist. If your only basis is a philosophical "right to travel the earth god put me on" argument, so be it. ESPECIALLY if it's to provide for your family, which is overwhelming the case here (Mex-to-USA). No law should come before the law in your heart. That's what keeps civilization from evolving to the next level-- this compromise we make with the State to temporarily suspend our conscience. If you ask me, that's what keeps us the greedy selfish animals we are. In my view, abiding to law just because it is law "can't be a sound basis" to support AZ.

[CUnknown]

Exactly, people keep making strawman arguments about the AZ bill.

Apparently, this bill -does- say they can stop random people and ask for ID, that's what the judge had a problem with. After hearing that, I disagree with the law as well.