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FrankRep
04-28-2010, 10:50 PM
South of the Border - A crisis is brewing (http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2010/04/27/south-of-the-border/)


Antiwar.com
April 28, 2010


The other day, the head of security for the Mexican state of Michoacán was ambushed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100424/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_drug_war_mexico) in her car: she escaped with non-life threatening injuries, but four people were killed and ten wounded in a well-planned attack that featured the throwing of hand grenades. In Ciudad Juarez (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/24/world/main6428197.shtml), seven Mexican police were attacked and killed by assailants. The attacks were the work of Mexican drug cartels, who have long been at odds over turf, but the latest attacks may be an indication that the cartels are increasingly turning to targeting the Mexican government itself as their principal enemy.

Mexico’s governing class has long been one of the most venal and corrupt in the world. For many years, the ruling Institutional Party of the Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_Revolutionary_Party) (PRI) dominated national and state politics, dispensing favors to the privileged, repressing any and all signs of dissent, and generally living off the fat of the land. This ended in 2000, when the candidate of the conservative opposition, Vicente Fox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Fox), captured the presidency, but the breakup of the PRI’s political monopoly did little to liberalize Mexican society, which remained sunk in poverty, corruption, and spiraling violence. The violence is generated primarily by the rising drug cartels, which have grown (http://exiledonline.com/mexican-drug-war-intel-report-over-22000-dead-police-detain-27-of-the-zetas-foot-soldiers-open-hunting-season-on-cops/) to the point where they threaten the authority (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-02-10-mexico-cartels_N.htm) of the governing structures, until today, when they are attacking government convoys, and no one – not even the head of security for a major state – is safe.

And that goes for the Americans, too, who are finding that the violence is spilling over the US-Mexican border. As a 2009 news report put it (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gWhRKf9LDBYXihcUl4Wj6OvNdHzQ):



"Homes are being invaded by gunmen, people raped and tortured, and bodies dumped in the Arizona desert as violence from the Mexican drug wars spills into the American Southwest. Illegal immigration and drug smuggling have always been issues in this border state, but warring Mexican cartels are carrying violence to levels that have shocked law enforcement and government officials.

"There are more than 1,000 safehouses used to corral illegal immigrants after they are smuggled into the country at any given time in Phoenix, according to Lieutenant James Warriner of the Arizona Department of Public Safety. Illegal immigrants are taken to so-called drop houses, stripped naked, blindfolded, and held for ransom. If they’re naked, there is less chance of them fleeing. A bucket in the room serves as a toilet.

"’Next door in the other room is the torture/rape room,’ [Arizona state Senator Jonathan] Paton said. ‘They say, "Hey we need another 2,000 dollars or we’re going to torture and rape so-and-so."’

"Arizona state police have found 30 to 40 people crammed into rooms the size of a child’s bedroom. Paton recently visited one in a Phoenix neighborhood. …

"Home invasions and kidnappings are so prevalent now that the Phoenix Police Department has formed a special squad just to deal with them. Men hired by the Sinaloa drug cartel – the most active in Arizona – wearing body armor and tactical gear identical to American SWAT teams kick in doors, zip-cuff the inhabitants, then kill them. Several bodies were dumped in the western Phoenix suburb of Buckeye last year, according to Warriner."


Talk about terrorism – this is the real McCoy. So what is the federal government doing about it? The answer is: nothing. The US-Mexican border is just as porous as ever, and any attempt to seal it is denounced as "racist" and the equivalent of setting up a "police state."

While I don’t approve of the recent legislation (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2010/0427/Is-Arizona-s-new-immigration-law-unconstitutional) passed by the Arizona state legislature, which empowers police to check anyone who might "reasonably" suspected of being in the country illegally, opponents of the bill – particularly the professional victimologists and weepy-eyed liberals – refuse to recognize that the effort was spawned, not by hate but by the rising violence of a nearly-failed state – Mexico – which is seeping across the border and threatens to become a torrent of criminality and chaos.

What I would like to know is this: what country on earth fails to guard its borders this way? We are often told by liberals and "progressives" that the US needs to be more like Europe (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/opinion/11krugman.html), with cradle-to-grave security and government-run health care, but what about when it comes to immigration? Precisely because the Europeans have extensive welfare states, the demand to see "Your papers, please (http://visibility911.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/yourpapersplease.jpg)" is a common request made by law enforcement agencies in those countries. And no one would think of questioning their right to do so.

An estimated six million illegal immigrants have flooded the US in recent years – in sheer quantitative terms, this represents the biggest single threat to our national security. And yet the merest suggestion that something ought to be done about it is met with cries of outrage by the liberal media and the usual suspects, i.e. the Big Business lobby (http://www.seattlepi.com/opinion/158609_ricardo30.html), which thrives on a pool of unlimited cheap labor, the "La Raza (http://www.nclr.org/)" crowd, which is basically arguing for a policy of open borders, and the Roman Catholic Church, which seeks to replenish its fast-emptying churches with a fresh crop of congregants.

Nothing enrages (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/cityinsider/detail?entry_id=62275) our liberal elites like the suggestion that we need to control immigration from our southern neighbor. In response to the Arizona law, the legal affairs editor of the New York Times says she is boycotting the state where "breathing while undocumented" is a crime. Notice the phraseology: they’re not illegal immigrants, they’re just "undocumented." Try telling the IRS that all those home office deductions aren’t illegal, they’re merely "undocumented," and see how far it gets you. The point being that illegal immigration is – gasp! – illegal, i.e. against the law. So why isn’t the law being enforced?

While we’re expending tremendous resources in trying to introduce some sort of order to the wilds of Afghanistan, the wilds of Arizona, New Mexico, and the entire American Southwest are under siege by criminal gangs, the drug cartels, in effect extra-state actors with malign intent – with no discernible response from the Feds. The Arizona state legislature is merely filling a void left by Washington, which refuses to face a very real and growing problem.

Okay, you might ask, so what’s your solution to the problem, Mr. Smarty-pants? A logical question, with an inescapably logical answer: stop trying to protect Afghanistan’s border with Pakistan and start protecting our own border with Mexico. Make the border airtight. In short, start using the resources of the federal government to carry out its one-and-only legitimate function: securing and protecting our borders.

Mexico is a seething cauldron that is already overflowing onto American soil; the national government in Mexico City appears to be losing control, even in popular tourist areas. The drug cartels are successfully challenging its monopoly on the use of force in every area of the country. When the whole place starts to come apart at the seams, do we really want a policy of open borders in place?

I had to laugh when I read about the "travel advisory (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laplaza/2010/04/mexico-turns-table-on-travel-advisory.html)" issued by the Mexican government, which warns Mexicans "it should be assumed that any Mexican citizen could be bothered and questioned for no significant reason at any moment." When I visited Mexico in the early 1970s, I was stopped by Mexican soldiers en route to Puerto Vallarta.

They had set up a checkpoint at the Sinaloa border, and ordered us out of the car. The friend I was with was outraged, and kept protesting. "Banditos!" he shouted. I winced, and kicked him under the seat. As I stepped out, and looked down the barrel of a submachine being pointed at me, I wondered if this was The End. I was determined, however, that it would not be.

However, it didn’t look good at that particular moment: there we were, in the middle of the desert, with not a soul around but me, my dumb-ass friend, and a dozen mean-looking Mexican soldiers – not cops, but military dudes, one of whom was staring at me and caressing his submachine gun with an apparently itchy trigger finger.

They searched the car, and found what they were looking for – something to steal. Pancho Itchy Finger held my portable typewriter aloft, triumphant. His fellow thugs grunted appreciatively. As my excitable friend started up with the "Bandito" refrain, I told him to STFU and then turned to face the Mexicans: "Go ahead and take it," I said, "it’s all yours."

A few minutes later, I was back in the car, sans typewriter, the wind drying the sweat off my brow as we sped toward Puerto Vallarta.

That the US State Department hasn’t issued a travel advisory warning Americans against the growing lawlessness that threatens visitors to Mexico is just another indication of government failure. Our government is so busy carrying out tasks it has no constitutional authority to involve itself in that it has no time, energy, or interest in doing what it is supposed to be doing, in this case protecting the physical safety of American citizens.


SOURCE:
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2010/04/27/south-of-the-border/

tpreitzel
04-28-2010, 10:55 PM
"The attacks were the work of Mexican drug cartels, who have long been at odds over turf, but the latest attacks may be an indication that the cartels are increasingly turning to targeting the Mexican government itself as their principal enemy."

Hmmmm, on second thought, I just might support open borders .... ;) j/k .... I think.

low preference guy
04-28-2010, 11:31 PM
Great article.

I think even if the borders are secured, massive crime will still not end until the War of Drugs is ended.

Vessol
04-28-2010, 11:35 PM
Great article.

I think even if the borders are secured, massive crime will still not end until the War of Drugs is ended.

The John Birch Society, as far as I am informed and have researched, is against ending the Drug War and prohibition.

tpreitzel
04-28-2010, 11:39 PM
Great article.

I think even if the borders are secured, massive crime will still not end until the War of Drugs is ended.

There's no question that the black market of "illicit" drugs must be removed through legalization IF the goal is reduction in crime and preservation of liberty. A government's "War On ..." is simply a euphemism for usurping power.

FrankRep
04-28-2010, 11:39 PM
The John Birch Society, as far as I am informed and have researched, is against ending the Drug War and prohibition.

Wrong. John Birch Society views drug regulation as a State Issue, not Federal.


The Constitution doesn't give the federal government the power to regulate/outlaw drugs, therefore, it falls under the 10th amendment for the states to decide it's legality. Each state should choose how they want to deal with drugs. Some states will allow all drugs, others will only allow marijuana, etc...

The John Birch Society has pointed out the "War on Drugs" is a failure, a huge waste of money, allows criminal elements monopolize on the artificial supply/demand, and opens the door to corruption in the state department/drug enforcement.


Nanny State Targets Tobacco
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/congress/1252

Obama Backs Mexico’s Failed ‘War on Drugs’
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/world-mainmenu-26/north-america-mainmenu-36/2771-obama-backs-mexicos-failed-war-on-drugs

The State Department: "Epic Fail"
http://www.jbs.org/jbs-news-feed/5857-the-state-department-qepic-failq

The Drug War - a study of Corruption in Governments.
http://www.jbs.org/component/content/article/974-userblogs/5136


The John Birch Society doesn't promote the use of drugs because of the negative side effects on your health and sound thinking, but the JBS acknowledges that you have a right to choose what to put into your body depending on local laws.

RedStripe
04-28-2010, 11:44 PM
The John Birch Society, as far as I am informed and have researched, is against ending the Drug War and prohibition.

*old granny voice*

"Drugs are destroying America and all the young folk! Drugs are undermining traditional family values."

Haha the part in "Overview of America" where they talk about drugs is hilarious. :D

RedStripe
04-28-2010, 11:45 PM
the JBS acknowledges that you have a right to choose what to put into your body depending on local laws.

I believe in freedom!*



*subject to whatever your tyrannical state government forbids

Vessol
04-28-2010, 11:51 PM
Wrong. John Birch Society views drug regulation as a State Issue, not Federal.


Then why do you have people like Paul W. Leithart on your National Council?

http://cultofthelivinggod.net/articles/mjmeduse.htm
http://www.christkirk.com/Literature/Marijuana.asp

RedStripe
04-28-2010, 11:58 PM
http://www.christkirk.com/Literature/Marijuana.asp

This is awesome hahahaa

nate895
04-29-2010, 12:25 AM
Then why do you have people like Paul W. Leithart on your National Council?

http://cultofthelivinggod.net/articles/mjmeduse.htm
http://www.christkirk.com/Literature/Marijuana.asp

You...linked....to....Douglas Wilson?

I'm just floored that anybody outside of Theocrat, Pauline Disciple, or myself managed to dig up a Wilson article.

peacepotpaul
04-29-2010, 01:42 AM
Institutional revolutionary? what is that? legitimatized violence?

FrankRep
04-29-2010, 07:00 AM
Then why do you have people like Paul W. Leithart on your National Council?

http://cultofthelivinggod.net/articles/mjmeduse.htm
http://www.christkirk.com/Literature/Marijuana.asp

Because people are allowed personal opinions? State Issue, remember?

amy31416
04-29-2010, 07:01 AM
Sorry to hijack the hijack of this thread, but Antiwar had a rebuttal to Raimondo's article....


‘South of the Border’ Reconsidered

Anthony Gregory and Eric Garris, April 29, 2010
Email This | Print This | Share This | Comment | Antiwar Forum

Justin Raimondo’s latest column, "South of the Border," has stirred controversy with its apparent advocacy of stricter U.S. border controls as a response to the drug-related violence terrorizing the American Southwest. While Antiwar.com has traditionally stuck to issues of foreign policy, immigration is a more than tangentially related matter, and the severity of the recent gang warfare and its prominence in the press prompted Raimondo to present his analysis of the problem and his favored response.

But there is another view, one more in line with Antiwar.com’s commitment to non-interventionism and opposition to militarism. While Raimondo is correct about the intolerable barbarity and increasing urgency of the border crisis, he appears to have ignored the root cause of this calamity. This has led him to advance a political solution that neglects the underlying, endemic problem of U.S. meddling in Latin America.

Describing the drug cartels’ actions as "terrorism," Raimondo fails to mention that as truly horrific as this violence is, it is a logical, inexorable consequence of U.S. government actions. Like 9/11, the border warfare is blowback – in this case, blowback from U.S. drug policy, particularly Washington’s relentless strong-arming of its southern neighbor to serve as a satellite in America’s War on Drugs.

Mexico’s leaders may be as thoroughly corrupt as Raimondo says, but this has not stopped American politicians from insisting that the Mexican government crack skulls in its own country in a quixotic effort to stop Americans from using substances our federal government declares verboten. As any economist can tell you, the prohibition of drugs creates black-market violence. Alcohol prohibition produced Al Capone, Reagan’s crusade against drugs (crack cocaine, in particular) intensified gang violence on America’s streets, and the internationalization of such policies has led to international crises.

Raimondo praises Vicente Fox for having signaled a possible brake on Mexico’s corruption, but notably, when Fox planned to sign a bill liberalizing drug laws in Mexico, the Bush administration pressured him into vetoing it. This bullying of Mexico’s government to make it exercise even more force against the drug trade than it wants to is nothing new. President Obama has exacerbated the crisis by supplying the Mexican regime with over a billion dollars’ worth of aid designated for the drug war, including five helicopters and other military hardware. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has boasted of the new plan "strengthening institutions, creating a 21st-century border, and building strong, resilient communities." Talk about nation-building!

Of course, the War on Drugs has been a U.S. foreign policy issue for many years, and, as with similar issues, Republicans and Democrats have competed with one another to show how tough they can be. Combining anti-drug hysteria with xenophobia has become a perennial winner in American domestic politics, but the cost in ruined lives has been high, especially for foreigners. In 1988, Democratic presidential candidate Michael Dukakis chided Republican George H.W. Bush for being soft on Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega. In a dress rehearsal for Operation Desert Storm, the Bush administration invaded Panama in 1989 in the name of combating drug trafficking and regime change. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Panamanian civilians were killed in Operation Just Cause. In the 1990s, President Bill Clinton initiated Plan Colombia, which has involved the chemical destruction of peasants’ crops in order to wipe out cocaine. On the other side of the world, the Taliban was getting U.S. aid to stamp out opium. This all continued into the George W. Bush administration, which upped the ante with its enthusiastic support of Thailand’s murderous drug policies. Today, we see the tragic irony of the Taliban, once sponsored by Washington to combat opium, thriving on its production. No one should be surprised when the governments we finance to fight drugs also cozy up to big-time drug dealers: this alliance between drug cop and drug supplier can be seen in American domestic law enforcement, and the more corrupt the regime, the more likely it is to play both sides.

Antiwar and anti-interventionist Americans can disagree on domestic drug policy, but they should agree on its international counterpart. Americans’ thirst for illegal drugs cannot be properly addressed through the U.S. imposing its hard-line "Just Say No" policies on other nations. The consequences have been disastrous for millions of foreigners, and now Americans are starting to see the price of this imperialism at home.

If America were to legalize drugs or even allow Mexico more leeway on the issue, this aspect of the border problem would quickly subside. The atmosphere surrounding the trade is violent precisely because prohibition has created exorbitant profits available only to those willing to flout the law and use brutal methods. The repeal of alcohol prohibition destroyed the monopoly organized crime had on the liquor business; we could expect similar results with the drug cartels following legalization. That is a politically incorrect proposal, but as with the blowback of 9/11, the root cause must be addressed if we are to avoid a worsening spiral of violence and government repression.

Similar dynamics are at work with immigration. Raimondo discusses how inhumanely illegal immigrants are treated by drug cartels, but none of this would be possible if not for the drug laws and the immigration laws. As Ludwig von Mises pointed out with respect to the economy, every government intervention inevitably creates problems that lead to calls for more intervention. Antiwar.com has heroically applied this same insight to foreign policy. But it is also at play in the intersection of the war on illegal immigrants and the War on Drugs. Raimondo correctly points out to progressives that a European social welfare system typically entails a "Your papers, please" immigration policy, and he is properly opposed to both. But a loss of civil liberties is inherent in any comprehensive immigration control policy, as Europe also demonstrates.

Although Raimondo says "securing and protecting our borders" is the federal government’s "one-and-only legitimate function," it is unclear where this authority comes from. The Constitution does empower Congress to regulate naturalization and citizenship, but not immigration per se. If we choose to approach the issue as an "invasion," as some conservatives propose, then we are back to the militaristic siege mentality that breeds all the domestic horrors of war – surveillance of citizens, violations of economic liberty and freedom of association, suspensions of habeas corpus, erosions of due process, and all the rest.

Given the federal government’s bloody record abroad and countless failures at home, as documented daily on this Web site, Antiwar.com’s readers should shudder at the thought of what the federal government would do to "make the border airtight," as Raimondo recommends. It is an impossible feat, of course, and attempting to achieve it could wipe out the last of our domestic liberties and erase any remaining line, however blurry, between the police and the military.

Bringing U.S. troops home from abroad and stationing them throughout the American Southwest is a frightening prospect for Americans living there, many of whom are already harassed regularly, many miles from the border, just for the shade of their skin. Raimondo scoffs at the idea that sealing the border would result in a "police state," but we have already seen one begin to develop in the name of stopping terrorism, immigration, and drugs. Although the threat of terrorists sneaking into the country is real and the atrocities on the border are terrible, further militarization of domestic law enforcement will not solve this government-created crisis any more than an increasingly aggressive foreign policy has solved the government-created crisis of international terrorism. There will always be a way for al-Qaeda or drug lords to circumvent the draconian measures that, in truth, hurt innocent people more than they inconvenience the villains.

By framing the drug and immigration issues as national security problems, we open the door to ever more depredations against life and liberty. There is no reason to encourage the U.S. government to tighten its stranglehold over any aspect of our lives, or to enhance its power in any way, in order to quash a catastrophe of its own making. If Americans are uncomfortable with liberalizing Washington’s drug policies and immigration controls, then they should recognize that the horrors on the Mexican border are the price they have chosen to pay (and make others pay). But giving more power to the U.S. government cannot possibly be the solution. As we see with terrorist blowback, our runaway national debt, and now the border crisis, the "biggest single threat to our national security" is not, as Raimondo writes, the 6 million people who have crossed our unenforceable border without asking the government’s permission. The true threat is Washington, D.C., and giving it another excuse to flex its muscles would be a disaster.

The above article is endorsed by the following Antiwar.com staff members:

Michael Austin
Matt Barganier
Jason Ditz
Michael Ewens
Eric Garris
Malcolm Garris
Alexia Gilmore
Margaret Griffis
Scott Horton
Angela Keaton
Thomas Knapp
Jeremy Sapienza


http://original.antiwar.com/anthony-gregory/2010/04/28/south-of-the-border-reconsidered-3/

Inflation
04-29-2010, 05:42 PM
Justin is right on this issue. But the purist Libertarians insist on being holier-than-thou at him. No wonder only 1% of the US votes for such a lack of pragmatism.

We understand the theory guys. But we don't live in Libertopia yet. The Mexican Border has been a source of instability and a threat to our peace since the days of Pancho Villa, long before the Drug Wars.

Using the Drug War as an excuse to ignore mass violation of immigration law is what's called a 'red herring' because it throws the conversation off topic with a stinky distracting separate issue.

http://ladyfi.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/red_herring1.jpg


Red herring is an idiomatic expression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring_%28idiom%29) the purpose of which is to divert the audience from the truth or an item of significance.[1] For example, in mystery fiction, an innocent party may be purposefully cast as highly suspicious through emphasis or descriptive techniques; attention is drawn away from the true guilty party.

In a literal sense, there is no such fish species as a "red herring"; rather it refers to a particularly strong kipper, meaning a fish—typically a herring but not always—that has been strongly cured in brine and/or heavily smoked. This process makes the fish particularly pungent smelling and turns its flesh red (and makes it very noticeable, notably for the idiom).[2] This term, in its literal sense as a type of kipper, can be dated to the late Middle Ages, as quoted here c1400 Femina (Trin-C B.14.40) 27: "He eteþ no ffyssh But heryng red." Samuel Pepys used it in his diary entry of 28 February 1660 "Up in the morning, and had some red herrings to our breakfast, while my boot-heel was a-mending, by the same token the boy left the hole as big as it was before."[3]

The idiomatic sense of "red herring" has, until very recently, been thought to originate from a supposed technique of training young scent hounds.[2] There are variations of the story, but according to one version, the pungent red herring would be dragged along a trail until a puppy learned to follow the scent[4]. Later, when the dog was being trained to follow the faint odour of a fox or a badger, the trainer would drag a red herring (whose strong scent confuses the animal) perpendicular to the animal's trail to confuse the dog.[5] The dog would eventually learn to follow the original scent rather than the stronger scent. An alternate etymology points to escaping convicts who would use the pungent fish to throw off hounds in pursuit.[6]

mczerone
04-29-2010, 07:04 PM
Justin is right on this issue. But the purist Libertarians insist on being holier-than-thou at him. No wonder only 1% of the US votes for such a lack of pragmatism.

We understand the theory guys. But we don't live in Libertopia yet. The Mexican Border has been a source of instability and a threat to our peace since the days of Pancho Villa, long before the Drug Wars.

Using the Drug War as an excuse to ignore mass violation of immigration law is what's called a 'red herring' because it throws the conversation off topic with a stinky distracting separate issue.

http://ladyfi.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/red_herring1.jpg

Who decides "immigration law"? States? Federal govt? Private property owners?

The Drug War is not a red herring as prohibition has empowered the violent and unscrupulous, giving them immense power that bands of Pancho Villa cults could not ever dream of.

Raimondo is not entirely wrong, but his 'solution' of stronger borders is vague to the point of absurdity and overlooks the source of the violence. Walling off the violence might keep you safe for a little bit, but it doesn't address or diminish power of the violent element. Perpetuating prohibition does nothing but give the violent element more power. Building a 'secure border' does nothing but waste resources on what only a certain segment of the population considers a good idea, and keeps the well-intentioned, strong work ethic, moral, peasant Mexicans in the talons of the violent drug lords!

There is zero risk of the violent drug lords coming over the border (even if some violence bleeds through), and it is appalling that Raimondo uses this pretense as an excuse to pretend that the govt legitimately owns the borders and should waste our resources putting up an inefficient speedbump in the free movement of people.

.Tom
04-29-2010, 08:21 PM
I believe in freedom!*



*subject to whatever your tyrannical state government forbids

Post of the fucking century.

osan
05-01-2010, 09:55 AM
deleted

osan
05-01-2010, 10:00 AM
Wrong. John Birch Society views drug regulation as a State Issue, not Federal.

A false set of choices, I might point out.



The Constitution doesn't give the federal government the power to regulate/outlaw drugs, therefore, it falls under the 10th amendment for the states to decide it's legality.

No, it does not. The tenth says to the states or the people. Besides, WE are the so-called "state" - there is ZERO difference between the two.

Let us illustrate the fallacy of your assertion with an analog - the constitution doesn't give the federal government the power to murder its citizens. Does it, therefore, grant such power to the states via the 10th?

The 10th as currently viewed is poison because all it does is shift the despotic authority from the federal government to the state government. The "or the people" part appears to have been most conveniently forgotten by those coveting power.



Each state should choose how they want to deal with drugs. Some states will allow all drugs, others will only allow marijuana, etc...


I wholly and strongly disagree with this opinion. It is more arbitrary nonsense.

The INDIVIDUAL should be making the decision for himself. Nobody else.


The John Birch Society has pointed out the "War on Drugs" is a failure, a huge waste of money, allows criminal elements monopolize on the artificial supply/demand, and opens the door to corruption in the state department/drug enforcement.

Here we are in agreement.

constituent
05-01-2010, 11:11 AM
hell, last time i was in nuevo laredo i heard a loud boom about a block away. turns out some kids lobbed a grenade over the wall at some federales. no one was hurt, no big deal. life moved right on.

much of the violence targeting government officials is actually very disorganized, and has much less to do with the war on drugs per say than one might believe. it's more like a bunch of folks are sick of the increasing heat and militarization in their towns (yes, that is the result of both the war on drugs and the war on immigrants but not exclusively), so a number of them have resorted to taking pot shots at government employees.

they're just fed up.

this is not to say that there isn't issues with the cartels and an organized insurrection against the mexican military specifically and some government employees in general, because that is very much going on too.
It's just that you don't hear about most of the little incidences, only the big ones.

basically, it's just a mess and hard to peg causality on one thing or another, but there are clearly things that could be done in the u.s.
to turn down the heat and relieve a little bit of the pressure.


edited to add: it's certainly not a "crisis" though. don't buy the hype.

low preference guy
05-01-2010, 11:19 AM
hell, last time i was in nuevo laredo i heard a loud boom about a block away. turns out some kids lobbed a grenade over the wall at some federales. no one was hurt, no big deal. life moved right on.

much of the violence targeting government officials is actually very disorganized, and has much less to do with the war on drugs per say than one might believe. it's more like a bunch of folks are sick of the increasing heat and militarization in their towns (yes, that is the result of both the war on drugs and the war on immigrants), so a number of them have resorted to taking pot shots at government employees.

they're just fed up.

this is not to say that there isn't issues with the cartels and an organized insurrection against the mexican military specifically and some government employees in general, because that is very much going on too.
It's just that you don't hear about most of the little incidences, only the big ones.

basically, it's just a mess and hard to peg causality on one thing or another, but there are clearly things that could be done in the u.s.
to turn down the heat and relieve a little bit of the pressure.


edited to add: it's certainly not a "crisis" though. don't buy the hype.

it's the war on drugs, that's what forces towns to become full of police and military enforcement.

the war on drugs also corrupts the police. did you know that in some towns the police gets paid by the drug gangs a salary greater then their official one?

also, isn't it a big illogical to think that alcohol prohibition could cause so much violence but the war on drugs isn't a problem on this front?

romacox
05-01-2010, 12:46 PM
There's no question that the black market of "illicit" drugs must be removed through legalization IF the goal is reduction in crime and preservation of liberty. A government's "War On ..." is simply a euphemism for usurping power.

You are correct...it needs to be legalized to take the profit out of it. I dare say that U.S. politicians will never do that though, and they will not secure our borders because there is profit in it for them. That is why they imprisoned Ramos and Compion, and freed a known drug lord.

I also agree with bringing home our troops to secure our borders. However as long as we have a welfare state (as Ron Paul points out in his 6 point solution http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/border-security/ (http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/border-security/)) we will have a magnet to draw them here. They will tunnel under or go by boat, but they will come here for better welfare conditions. Most welfare states (like Russia) end up with a wall because they cannot afford to redistribute all their wealth to the world. Problem is that walls not only keep people out, they also keep people in as well.

So ultimately the solution is getting rid of the welfare state. But, meanwhile, we have to resort to less than perfect transitional solutions like E-Verify, and States securing their own borders (as Arizona is doing). If not we will no longer have a Country to protect, and that will be with the help of our political leaders.

constituent
05-01-2010, 12:53 PM
it's the war on drugs, that's what forces towns to become full of police and military enforcement.

the war on drugs also corrupts the police. did you know that in some towns the police gets paid by the drug gangs a salary greater then their official one?

also, isn't it a big illogical to think that alcohol prohibition could cause so much violence but the war on drugs isn't a problem on this front?

I don't recall saying that the war on drugs isn't a problem on this front, quite the opposite in fact.

My point, and you've now reinforced that point, is that blaming it all on the war on drugs is taking an overly simplistic view of the reality "on the ground," so to speak.

low preference guy
05-01-2010, 01:10 PM
I don't recall saying that the war on drugs isn't a problem on this front, quite the opposite in fact.

My point, and you've now reinforced that point, is that blaming it all on the war on drugs is taking an overly simplistic view of the reality "on the ground," so to speak.

i'm not blaming everything on the war on drugs. i argue it's the most important factor on the surge of criminality we've seen in the last few years, both in mexico and in the border states.

lester1/2jr
05-01-2010, 04:49 PM
there is a tug of war on this issue among libertarians. Hans Herman Hoppe and I guess now justin raimondo favor restricting illegal immigration, hoppe favors really alot of restriction while ...alot of other libertarians feel otherwise.


http://www.libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/30/immigrants-intruders-or-guests/


^ within even the mises institute itself.

South Park Fan
05-01-2010, 05:20 PM
there is a tug of war on this issue among libertarians. Hans Herman Hoppe and I guess now justin raimondo favor restricting illegal immigration, hoppe favors really alot of restriction while ...alot of other libertarians feel otherwise.


http://www.libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/30/immigrants-intruders-or-guests/


^ within even the mises institute itself.

Isn't Hoppe a hypocrit, since he was "trespassing" on Americans' property when he came to this country?

lester1/2jr
05-03-2010, 08:56 AM
in his mind no, because he is white!