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pcosmar
04-28-2010, 10:24 AM
This is a Bond hearing. So far there has been no evidence of any crime.
This is all based on an allegation of some nebulous conspiracy.
http://www.toledoblade.com/article/20100428/NEWS02/4280343/-1/rss


DETROIT - An FBI agent who led the investigation of nine Michigan militia members charged with trying to launch war against the federal government couldn't recall many details of the two-year probe yesterday during questioning by defense lawyers.

Even the judge who must decide whether to release the nine until trial was puzzled.

"I share the frustrations of the defense team … that she doesn't know anything," U.S. District Judge Victoria Roberts said after agent Leslie Larsen confessed she hadn't reviewed her notes recently and couldn't remember specific details of the case.

Judge Roberts is hearing an appeal of another judge's order that has kept members of so-called Hutaree militia in jail since their arrest in late March.

I would love to see the Judge order the Provocateur/Bomb maker to testify so he could be discredited, but just releasing them on bond would be good.

Throwing the case out in it's entirety would be better.

tpreitzel
04-28-2010, 12:36 PM
This is a Bond hearing. So far there has been no evidence of any crime.
This is all based on an allegation of some nebulous conspiracy.
http://www.toledoblade.com/article/20100428/NEWS02/4280343/-1/rss (http://www.toledoblade.com/article/20100428/NEWS02/4280343/-1/rss)



I would love to see the Judge order the Provocateur/Bomb maker to testify so he could be discredited, but just releasing them on bond would be good.

Throwing the case out in it's entirety would be better.

Bump

tod evans
04-28-2010, 01:28 PM
Throwing the case out in it's entirety would be better.

yeah.......like that's going to happen after all the publicity.

pcosmar
04-28-2010, 01:34 PM
yeah.......like that's going to happen after all the publicity.

This is all nothing but a media circus. No evidence, fabricated story and hype.
I posted a related (sort of) story in Bearing arms.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=241577
:(

pcosmar
04-28-2010, 06:23 PM
No decision yet.
http://www.salon.com/wires/us/2010/04/28/D9FCCFT00_us_fbi_raids_militia/

Still no evidence of a crime.
:(

catdd
04-28-2010, 06:48 PM
I doubt they will throw it out after all that, too much of an embarrassment for the Feds.

dannno
04-28-2010, 07:08 PM
I doubt they will throw it out after all that, too much of an embarrassment for the Feds.

Nobody is paying attention anymore. The Feds already got what they wanted, a big arrest made and a media talking shit on militias for a couple weeks and it will ultimately lead to more legislation..

If they get let off don't expect the media to give it any serious attention.. they might not even cover it.

Anti Federalist
04-28-2010, 08:51 PM
Nobody is paying attention anymore. The Feds already got what they wanted, a big arrest made and a media talking shit on militias for a couple weeks and it will ultimately lead to more legislation..

If they get let off don't expect the media to give it any serious attention.. they might not even cover it.

Ya, like the OK bill Pete posted.

Anti Federalist
04-28-2010, 09:22 PM
This seems to be their "crime":


Assistant U.S. Attorney Ronald Waterstreet played an audiotape of what he said were several militia members talking freely about killing police.

The participants talked over each other, often laughed and made goofy noises and disparaging remarks about law enforcement.

Not this:


Defense lawyer William Swor asked if the No. 1 defendant, Hutaree leader David Stone, had ever instructed anyone to make a bomb.

"I can't fully answer that question," the agent replied.

Or this:


She said that because they were still being examined, she didn't know if weapons seized by investigators last month were illegal.

Pete's right, this thing stinks to high heaven, there was no "crime" here.

Shenanigans.

pcosmar
04-28-2010, 10:35 PM
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9FCD8HO0&show_article=1
Judge asks feds to show militia did more than talk


"'What if' is not the standard. ... None of these words are an instruction to anyone to commit a crime," said Stone's attorney, William Swor, as held up a stack of transcripts.

Arthur Weiss, a lawyer for Thomas Piatek, 46, of Whiting, Ind., said disgust with the government as recorded by the undercover agent is similar to what's said daily by radio and TV talk-show hosts Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity.

"Millions of people" are talking about "taking our country back," Weiss said.

Vessol
04-28-2010, 10:40 PM
I doubt they will throw it out after all that, too much of an embarrassment for the Feds.

No, they'll quietly abandon it as they have most cases, gotten all the fear mongering use out of it that they need.

catdd
04-29-2010, 05:39 AM
They could do that I guess. Just let it drag on and on until people have forgotten all about it then quietly drop all charges.

dwdollar
04-29-2010, 07:30 AM
No legitimate charge? Golly gee willikers, we didn't see that coming...

pcosmar
04-29-2010, 02:08 PM
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jhK5VTvnp2Kc1AwCg9DlHUh3xnfAD9FCS8LG2

Feds tell judge she's misreading militia case

DETROIT — Federal prosecutors trying to keep nine militia members in jail said Thursday that they don't need to show there was imminent danger when they charged them with plotting war against the government

John Taylor
04-29-2010, 02:11 PM
This seems to be their "crime":



Not this:



Or this:



Pete's right, this thing stinks to high heaven, there was no "crime" here.

Shenanigans.

+1776. The fact that they don't even know if the weapons found were illegal...months after the arrests, is outright apalling. If they wern't illegal then, they might be illegal now...

Shenanigans indeed!

dannno
04-29-2010, 02:17 PM
Amazing.

virgil47
04-29-2010, 02:25 PM
Give the BATF enough time and the weapons will suddenly become illegal.

dannno
04-29-2010, 02:34 PM
Give the BATF enough time and the weapons will suddenly become illegal.

Ya, they must not be finished with the modifications yet.

constituent
04-29-2010, 02:39 PM
doesn't matter, they've already been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion.

pcosmar
04-29-2010, 02:46 PM
doesn't matter, they've already been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion.

That happened on day one. They were described as a "Christian" militia.
That is the reason the Michigan Militia snitched to the Feds in 2008 and got hem investigated.

pcosmar
04-29-2010, 02:49 PM
This thread is related,
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=241577
“Remington Arms Model 700, 12 caliber rifle”

The man is Indicted for a gun that does NOT possibly exist.
:(

pcosmar
04-30-2010, 08:19 AM
I am surprised that this is not being watched more closely. I am because it is my state, and because it is a 2nd amendment issue.
However it seems to be a First Amendment issue.
http://michiganmessenger.com/37313/prosecution-govt-need-not-prove-imminent-action-by-hutaree
Prosecution: Govt. need not prove imminent action by Hutaree

There are several issues here, Free Speech, Constitutional Militia, And the right to face your accuser.
The idea of an anonymous secret accusation is repulsive and concerning.

The Judge in the case seems to share some of these concerns, but it is yet to be seen how she will rule.
This bond hearing has gone on all this week.

amy31416
04-30-2010, 08:27 AM
I am surprised that this is not being watched more closely. I am because it is my state, and because it is a 2nd amendment issue.
However it seems to be a First Amendment issue.
http://michiganmessenger.com/37313/prosecution-govt-need-not-prove-imminent-action-by-hutaree
Prosecution: Govt. need not prove imminent action by Hutaree

There are several issues here, Free Speech, Constitutional Militia, And the right to face your accuser.
The idea of an anonymous secret accusation is repulsive and concerning.

The Judge in the case seems to share some of these concerns, but it is yet to be seen how she will rule.
This bond hearing has gone on all this week.

I've been watching it, and now the prosecution is arguing that they do not need to prove that imminent action was pending:


Prosecution: Govt. need not prove imminent action by Hutaree
By Ed Brayton 4/30/10 7:19 AM Digg Tweet

There is an interesting arguing developing in the case of the Hutaree Christian militia, charged in federal court with conspiracy to engage in sedition against the government of the United States. The U.S. Attorneys prosecuting the Hutaree seem to be at odds with the judge on the standard that they must meet in order to prove their case.

This week has seen Judge Victoria Roberts hearing testimony from both sides in an appeal of the decision to deny bail to all nine defendants in the case. During those hearings, Roberts has several times challenged prosecutors to show evidence of “imminent lawless action” by the Hutaree, citing the standard established in a 1969 Supreme Court case involving seditious conspiracy.

Judge Roberts has challenged prosecutors to show not mere advocacy of unlawful action, which is generally protected by the First Amendment, but that the group was putting those plans into action and that such action was imminent and inevitable.

On Thursday prosecutors filed a brief taking the position that the judge is applying the wrong standard, arguing that there is a range of “speech-related conduct” that is not protected by the First Amendment and that this case falls within that category. They note the prosecution of Sheik Abdel Rahman, the so-called Blind Sheikh, who is in prison for encouraging his followers to bomb the United Nations building.

The prosecutors’ brief argues that there is a distinction between conspiring to commit violence and advocating the use of violence:

In a leading seditious conspiracy case, United States v. Rahman, Sheik Rahman, in a speech to his followers, instructed them to “‘do jihad with the sword, with the cannon, with the grenades, with the missile … against God’s enemies.’” He spoke about jihad at a conference and issued a fatwah on a plan to bomb the UN. In Rahman, the court rejected the defendant’s facial and as-applied First Amendment challenges to the statute. The court considered evidence that the defendant said to a co-conspirator that he “’should make up with God … by turning his rifle’s barrel to President Mubarak’s chest, and kill[ing] him,’” that he urged another conspirator to “‘[c]arry out this operation …. Go ahead,’” and that he assured another that “‘it’s a duty’” to bomb the UN headquarters. The court concluded that these were words “that instruct, solicit, or persuade others to commit crimes of violence,” and were therefore not “immunize[d]” by the First Amendment from prosecution. Brandenburg restrictions did not apply because the crime charged was conspiring to “use” force, not to “advocate” the use of force.

The brief also argues that the use of conspiracy charges is required in order to prevent the outbreak of violence:

Moreover, given the gravity of the planned future operations (i.e., killing a member of law enforcement then attacking the funeral procession with IED/EFP), the prosecution of the defendants for conspiracy is appropriate in order to prevent the conspiracy from ripening into actual violent actions. “Congress enacted Section 2384 to help the government cope with and fend off urban terrorism. . . . Section 2384 provides a vehicle for the government to make arrests before a conspiracy ripens into a violent situation. The government’s interest in thwarting such plans and in safeguarding public security is unquestioned.” United States v. Rodriguez, 803 F.2d 318, 320 (7th Cir. 1986).

Whether Judge Roberts will accept this argument remains to be seen. She could rule as soon as Friday on whether to let the Hutaree members out on bail or keep them in jail pending trial on the substantive charges.

Here is the full text of the brief:

Hutaree Brief


It's laid out much better at: http://michiganmessenger.com/37313/prosecution-govt-need-not-prove-imminent-action-by-hutaree

What this tells me is that there is no physical evidence and that they're even weak on circumstantial.

constituent
04-30-2010, 08:37 AM
Which just goes to show that if we're ever going to win the war on terrorism, we have to stop giving these terrorists due process of law.

Just pick 'em up, and swoop them off to GITMO. Problem solved.

virgil47
04-30-2010, 01:23 PM
Which just goes to show that if we're ever going to win the war on terrorism, we have to stop giving these terrorists due process of law.

Just pick 'em up, and swoop them off to GITMO. Problem solved.

I'm sure the founding fathers would agree.

constituent
04-30-2010, 01:24 PM
I'm sure the founding fathers would agree.

Probably more than one would have, yea. I'm sure about that too. ;) :)

virgil47
04-30-2010, 01:42 PM
Probably more than one would have, yea. I'm sure about that too. ;) :)

UH huh you betcha!

specsaregood
05-01-2010, 10:52 AM
Bump. Thanks goodness for "indefinite detention".

Oh, and if they weren't "radicalized" before, they might very well be now. Guess that was the whole point.

pcosmar
05-02-2010, 01:08 PM
There are hundreds of militias nationwide. Some highly visible some less so.
There are dozens in Michigan. Several of them under the banner of "the Michigan Militia". Some not.
Militia are as a rule and by definition , defensive. Though they train with weapons and military tactics, is is for the purpose of defending the local community and the republic. There has been very little actual violence associated with the militia. (though is is often alleged)

There are also gangs, organized cirme and political front groups that are not militia at all. These are often violent or promoting violence and criminal acts.

I have been following the Hutaree story since it broke. They are far to my south, but still in my home state. So it is of interest to me.
It is also highly disappointing.
I had in the past posted links and videos from the Michigan Militia, as an example of the Constitutional militia.
This is what I have found.

I went to their site when they were first in the news, and checked their forums to see what they were about. I don't recommend that now, as their forums have been overrun with trolls of the most vile sort. The site administrator is in jail, and there is none to stop the filth being posted there.
I found no racism nor calls to violence or revolution.
The Hutaree were formed in 2008 as a Christian based militia, just one of many in the area. They have the belief that the NWO or a One World Government contrary to our Constitution and in league with Satan will one day emerge. They vow to resist it.
They welcome all to visit and train, but only allow membership of those that share their faith in Christ.
It seems that one man of Muslim faith attempted to join but was denied and that started a feud with other local militia folks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutaree

One man who once contemplated joining the group, a Mr. Savino, was refused admission due to his being a Muslim. This same individual later provided information to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) which appears to have assisted them in capturing the last indicted Hutaree at large, Joshua Stone

http://www.detnews.com/article/20100417/METRO/4170351/Other-militias-told-on-Hutaree#ixzz0mXUCphPI


Instead of being brothers-in-arms, those other groups became deeply suspicious of the religious and violence-tinged rhetoric of the Hutaree and warned the FBI about the group in late 2008.

Two members of the Southern Michigan Volunteer Militia said this week they provided the FBI with information on the Hutaree, identifying them as "kind of creepy" and considering them a threat that the FBI should keep an eye on.
(also confirmed on other sites by those involved. Search "Thumper" and "Mad Hatter")
So it seems that they were targeted shortly after they were formed. And the Feds had a provocateur involved with them for quite some time.
It is confirmed by news stories that the only bomb making was done by the FBI informant.

[FBI Special Agent Andrew] Arena said the undercover officer who was accepted into the group was offered membership because he said he had a special skill: He knew how to make bombs. Arena said the officer offered to take over that part of the group's operation. That meant the FBI would now have some modicum of control over what it saw as the Hutarees' most dangerous asset: explosives.

Even the Judge in the case is disturbed by the government actions and lack of evidence in the case.

Hopefully they will be released on bond soon, and eventually acquitted.

M House
05-02-2010, 01:10 PM
Fitting it should be perfectly legal for a state to have a militia, and there's no army or FBI in the constitution.

osan
05-03-2010, 05:53 AM
There are hundreds of militias nationwide..

Estimates run as high as 4000 - probably depends on how one defines and counts.


There are also gangs, organized cirme and political front groups that are not militia at all. These are often violent or promoting violence and criminal acts.


And here we have another example of the danger of misusing labels. It is this habit of relying on labels that provocateurs take advantage of in some cases. In this case, establish a "gang" of some sort and call it "militia" for the purpose of turning public opinion against all militias.

People need to learn new habits.

tangent4ronpaul
05-03-2010, 10:14 AM
Judge just ruled that they can make bail.

It's being called a freedom of speech case. Apparently the gvmt had nothing other than them talking.

-t

phill4paul
05-03-2010, 10:16 AM
Judge just ruled that they can make bail.

It's being called a freedom of speech case. Apparently the gvmt had nothing other than them talking.

-t

Yep. Pretty weak case for such an "important" round up of militia members.

tpreitzel
05-03-2010, 10:20 AM
Apparently, based strictly on the evidence or lack thereof, the judge's decision is the correct one. Time will tell.

specsaregood
05-03-2010, 10:28 AM
Judge just ruled that they can make bail.

It's being called a freedom of speech case. Apparently the gvmt had nothing other than them talking.

-t

What are the odds that as soon as they are released on Bail, the Feds reclassify them as terrorists then extradite them to guantanamo....

phill4paul
05-03-2010, 10:31 AM
What are the odds that as soon as they are released on Bail, the Feds reclassify them as terrorists then extradite them to guantanamo....

Probably not to great concerning the ruling, however, I certainly believe there are some people in the FBI kicking themselves in the ass over not handling the situation exactly as you state.

pcosmar
05-03-2010, 10:45 AM
Good news, and a good decision.
The entire case seems to have been manufactured. Made for Media event.

Perhaps the Michigan Militia will do some house cleaning too. Tough I have my doubts about that.

Reason
05-03-2010, 10:56 AM
YouTube - Judge Orders Bail For Hutaree Militia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egru25hHD1g)