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amy31416
04-28-2010, 08:11 AM
I tend to think about soldiers "kill thrill" more in terms of the WWII study, personally.


Why soldiers get a kick out of killing

By John Horgan

Do some soldiers enjoy killing? If so, why? This question is thrust upon us by the recently released video of U.S. Apache helicopter pilots shooting a Reuters cameraman and his driver in Baghdad in 2007. Mistaking the camera of the Reuters reporter for a weapon, the pilots machine-gunned the reporter and driver and other nearby people.

The most chilling aspect of the video, which was made public by Wikileaks, is the chatter between two pilots, whose names have not been released. As Elizabeth Bumiller of The New York Times put it, the soldiers "revel in their kill." "Look at those dead bastards," one pilot says. "Nice," the other replies.

The exchange reminds me of a Times story from March 2003, during the U.S. invasion of Baghdad. The reporter quotes Sgt. Eric Schrumpf, a Marine sharpshooter, saying, "We had a great day. We killed a lot of people." Noting that his troop killed an Iraqi woman standing near a militant, Schrumpf adds, "I'm sorry, but the chick was in the way."

Does the apparent satisfaction—call it the Schrumpf effect—that some soldiers take in killing stem primarily from nature or nurture? Nature, claims Richard Wrangham, an anthropologist at Harvard University and an authority on chimpanzees. Wrangham asserts that natural selection embedded in both male humans and chimpanzees—our closest genetic relatives—an innate propensity for "intergroup coalitionary killing" [pdf], in which members of one group attack members of a rival group. Male humans "enjoy the opportunity" to kill others, Wrangham says, especially if they run little risk of being killed themselves.

Several years ago, geneticists at Victoria University in New Zealand linked violent male aggression to a variant of a gene that encodes for the enzyme monoamine oxidase A, which regulates the function of neurotransmitters such as dopamine and serotonin. According to the researchers, the so-called "warrior gene" is carried by 56 percent of Maori men, who are renowned for being "fearless warriors," and only 34 percent of Caucasian males.

But studies of World War II veterans suggest that very few men are innately bellicose. The psychiatrists Roy Swank and Walter Marchand found that 98 percent of soldiers who endured 60 days of continuous combat suffered psychiatric symptoms, either temporary or permanent. The two out of 100 soldiers who seemed unscathed by prolonged combat displayed "aggressive psychopathic personalities," the psychiatrists reported. In other words, combat didn't drive these men crazy because they were crazy to begin with.

Surveys of WWII infantrymen carried out by U.S. Army Brig. Gen. S.L.A. Marshall found that only 15 to 20 percent had fired their weapons in combat, even when ordered to do so. Marshall concluded that most soldiers avoid firing at the enemy because they fear killing as well as being killed. "The average and healthy individual," Marshall contended in his postwar book Men Against Fire, "has such an inner and usually unrealized resistance towards killing a fellow man that he will not of his own volition take life if it is possible to turn away from that responsibility…At the vital point he becomes a conscientious objector."

Critics have challenged Marshall's claims, but the U.S. military took them so seriously that it revamped its training to boost firing rates in subsequent wars, according to Dave Grossman, a former U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel and professor of psychology at West Point. In his 1995 book On Killing, Grossman argues that Marshall's results have been corroborated by reports from World War I, the American Civil War, the Napoleonic wars and other conflicts. "The singular lack of enthusiasm for killing one's fellow man has existed throughout military history," Grossman asserts.

The reluctance of ordinary men to kill can be overcome by intensified training, direct commands from officers, long-range weapons and propaganda that glorifies the soldier's cause and dehumanizes the enemy. "With the proper conditioning and the proper circumstances, it appears that almost anyone can and will kill," Grossman writes. Many soldiers who kill enemies in battle are initially exhilarated, Grossman says, but later they often feel profound revulsion and remorse, which may transmute into post-traumatic stress disorder and other ailments. Indeed, Grossman believes that the troubles experienced by many combat veterans are evidence of a "powerful, innate human resistance toward killing one's own species."

In other words, the Schrumpf effect is usually a product less of nature than of nurture—although "nurture" is an odd term for training that turns ordinary young men into enthusiastic killers.


http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=why-soldiers-get-a-kick-out-of-kill-2010-04-23

low preference guy
04-28-2010, 08:34 AM
sick. this country is emotionally fueled largely by a disease that makes people eager to kill someone, somewhere. the disease is also known as neo-conservatism, and it's leaders like Kristol, Frum, and McCain, are nothing but pathological blood-thirsty war-mongers.

amy31416
04-28-2010, 09:00 AM
sick. this country is emotionally fueled largely by a disease that makes people eager to kill someone, somewhere. the disease is also known as neo-conservatism, and it's leaders like Kristol, Frum, and McCain, are nothing but pathological blood-thirsty war-mongers.

I consider them to be in that 2%:


But studies of World War II veterans suggest that very few men are innately bellicose. The psychiatrists Roy Swank and Walter Marchand found that 98 percent of soldiers who endured 60 days of continuous combat suffered psychiatric symptoms, either temporary or permanent. The two out of 100 soldiers who seemed unscathed by prolonged combat displayed "aggressive psychopathic personalities," the psychiatrists reported. In other words, combat didn't drive these men crazy because they were crazy to begin with.

but too cowardly to pick up a gun themselves. In that sense, they are even lower than the sociopaths we send into battle, as they're using and killing the 98% of our guys who aren't inherently bad.

klamath
04-28-2010, 09:27 AM
Actually pretty well in line with what I have seen. Some men are just worriors (vikings) and get a high from war. It is the ultimate adrenline rush. The far majority of them get there because they are convinced they are doing the right thing and the end justifies the means. Others kill to survive, kill or be killed.

Deborah K
04-28-2010, 09:32 AM
Why Soldiers get a kick out of killing. Not - why some soldiers do. :rolleyes: My next door neighbor's son was killed in Iraq by a road side bomb. He introduced my daughter to her husband. He was killed while Lynsay was pregnant with my grandson. She and her husband decided to name their baby after their good friend.

Greg came back from his first tour a changed young man. He did NOT get a kick out of killing. Fuck this article!

amy31416
04-28-2010, 09:37 AM
Why Soldiers get a kick out of killing. Not - why some soldiers do. :rolleyes: My next door neighbor's son was killed in Iraq by a road side bomb. He introduced my daughter to her husband. He was killed while Lynsay was pregnant with my grandson. She and her husband decided to name their baby after their good friend.

Greg came back from his first tour a changed young man. He did NOT get a kick out of killing. Fuck this article!

I agree that the title is "sensational" but did you actually read the body of it?

Deborah K
04-28-2010, 09:43 AM
I agree that the title is "sensational" but did you actually read the body of it?

Skimmed it. Title incensed me. Inflammatory rhetoric tends to do that. No reflection on my adulation for you, Amy. :)

amy31416
04-28-2010, 09:58 AM
Skimmed it. Title incensed me. Inflammatory rhetoric tends to do that. No reflection on my adulation for you, Amy. :)

I can dig it...I contemplated changing the title from the authors original, but didn't. :)

Mach
04-28-2010, 11:01 AM
A soldiers job is to kill. :rolleyes:

Old Ducker
04-28-2010, 12:07 PM
YouTube - Universal Soldier (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohXsdbF-7jc&feature=player_embedded)

Keller1967
04-28-2010, 12:55 PM
Why Soldiers get a kick out of killing. Not - why some soldiers do. :rolleyes: My next door neighbor's son was killed in Iraq by a road side bomb. He introduced my daughter to her husband. He was killed while Lynsay was pregnant with my grandson. She and her husband decided to name their baby after their good friend.

Greg came back from his first tour a changed young man. He did NOT get a kick out of killing. Fuck this article!

Maybe if you actually read the article you would gain a better understanding of what our politicians put our soldiers through. There is a good chance this Greg fellow DID get a kick out of killing at one point in time which only escalates the emotional trauma later on.

With the proper conditioning and the proper circumstances, it appears that almost anyone can and will kill," Grossman writes. Many soldiers who kill enemies in battle are initially exhilarated, Grossman says, but later they often feel profound revulsion and remorse, which may transmute into post-traumatic stress disorder and other ailments.

There is nothing good or romantic about sending good young men into battle and have them kill due to extensive brainwashing only to have them regret it later on.

Believe it or not the US armed forces do not train people to kill when it is morally okay and then feel regretful about it later on - they train them to be killers, killers who kill simply because they were given an order, killers who enjoy what they do. They train them to enjoy it, that is the price of an "effective" defensive imperialistic force. "Decent" people will not be able to resist this training, their morals will only add to their regret and dismay after the fact.

This is why I cannot understand the support for pro-war candidates.

Deborah K
04-28-2010, 02:48 PM
There is a good chance this Greg fellow DID get a kick out of killing at one point in time which only escalates the emotional trauma later on.

.

Keep your uninformed, ignorant opinions to yourself!!!! You know nothing about him so stfu!!!!

Pericles
04-28-2010, 03:01 PM
Many military historians discount Marshal, because his conclusions are based on only interviewing unwounded survivors of action - no actions taken by the killed and wounded factor into his conclusions.

By extension, Grossman gets caught in a similar trap. Not everybody in the military studies space is on board with them.

amy31416
04-28-2010, 03:17 PM
Keep your uninformed, ignorant opinions to yourself!!!! You know nothing about him so stfu!!!!

I regret posting the article, especially with the original title. Sorry. :(

BlackTerrel
04-28-2010, 03:59 PM
The most chilling aspect of the video, which was made public by Wikileaks, is the chatter between two pilots, whose names have not been released. As Elizabeth Bumiller of The New York Times put it, the soldiers "revel in their kill." "Look at those dead bastards," one pilot says. "Nice," the other replies.


They're in a fucking war. What are they supposed to be doing? Crying about it?

Firemen get amped up when there's a fire. Does that mean that firemen enjoy watching stuff burn down?


Does the apparent satisfaction—call it the Schrumpf effect—that some soldiers take in killing stem primarily from nature or nurture? Nature, claims Richard Wrangham, an anthropologist at Harvard University and an authority on chimpanzees.

What does this douchebag at Harvard (and expert on Chimpanzees :D) know about war. I hate people like this. Very easy for him to judge from his ivory tower.

I disagree with the wars but I have nothing but respect for our soldiers - many of whom are friends and family of mine.

BuddyRey
04-28-2010, 04:02 PM
Good article.

Deborah K
04-28-2010, 04:14 PM
I regret posting the article, especially with the original title. Sorry. :(

It's okay Amy. It would have been disingenuous of you to change the title and that is not you. But I appreciate your sensitivity all the same. http://i44.tinypic.com/35mquev.jpg

klamath
04-28-2010, 05:05 PM
Keep your uninformed, ignorant opinions to yourself!!!! You know nothing about him so stfu!!!!
I hear you Deborah. Some people can spout some pretty uninformed opinions from their ivory towers.
What some of the ignorant non military people don't realize is just about 3 out of 4 people in the military are not in combat arms but support rolls and never really thought they would have to actively kill other human beings. A high percentage of thoses that died in Iraq were support personal driving in convoys.
To Greg, Art, and the thousands of others that have died on all sides may you all rest in peace. Hopefully someday man will channel his ambitions to the natural elements of far off planets and not to killing each other. I can only dream.

Deborah K
04-28-2010, 05:11 PM
I hear you Deborah. Some people can spout some pretty uninformed opinions from their ivory towers.
What some of the ignorant non military people don't realize is just about 3 out of 4 people in the military are not in combat arms but support rolls and never really thought they would have to actively kill other human beings. A high percentage of thoses that died in Iraq were support personal driving in convoys.
To Greg, Art, and the thousands of others that have died on all sides may you all rest in peace. Hopefully someday man will channel his ambitions to the natural elements of far off planets and not to killing each other. I can only dream.

Thank you, Klamath. You've managed to bring tears to my eyes.

For Greg:
http://i38.tinypic.com/2aagjds.jpg


and his namesake:

http://i37.tinypic.com/htbbio.jpg

amy31416
04-28-2010, 05:20 PM
They're in a fucking war. What are they supposed to be doing? Crying about it?

Firemen get amped up when there's a fire. Does that mean that firemen enjoy watching stuff burn down?



What does this douchebag at Harvard (and expert on Chimpanzees :D) know about war. I hate people like this. Very easy for him to judge from his ivory tower.

I disagree with the wars but I have nothing but respect for our soldiers - many of whom are friends and family of mine.

That doesn't mean that there aren't serious issues with what's going on in our name, I'm pretty emotional about it too considering that I do have a dog in this fight who has two young children. But not recognizing that these guys are going to come back, psychologically, if not physically destroyed is stupid.

And yeah, sometimes they should be "crying about it" you ass.