Oppose H.R. 2499: Statehood for Puerto Rico

[FrankRep]

Oppose H.R. 2499, Statehood for Puerto Rico
http://www.votervoice.net/Core.aspx?AID=972&APP=GAC&IssueID=21716&SiteID=-1



The United States House of Representatives is set to vote on H.R. 2499, the Puerto Rico Democracy Act, as early as this week. This bill may instigate a non-binding expression by the voters of Puerto Rico as to their wishes, but in conjunction with other legislation already introduced inside Puerto Rico, the commonwealth status of the island could be eliminated as early as this year, forcing Puerto Rico into statehood, or full independence. By Ann Shibler


Legislation Promotes Statehood for Puerto Rico (http://www.jbs.org/us-constitution-blog/6230-legislation-promotes-statehood-for-puerto-rico)


Ann Shibler | John Birch Society (http://www.jbs.org/)
Tuesday, 27 April 2010


The United States House of Representatives is set to vote on H.R. 2499, the Puerto Rico Democracy Act, as early as this week. This bill would mandate a non-binding expression by the voters of Puerto Rico as to their wishes with regard to retaining their commonwealth status or becoming a state or becoming an independent nation, but in conjunction with other legislation already introduced inside Puerto Rico, the commonwealth status of the island could be eliminated as early as this year.

Both Americans and Puerto Ricans are not informed as to the ramifications of H.R, 2499 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.2499:), introduced in May of 2009 by Pedro Pierluisi, (D-Puerto Rico) with 181 cosponsors.

Puerto Rico is currently a self-governing U.S. commonwealth having a representational form of government found in two legislative chambers with authority over its own internal affairs. Puerto Ricans are exempt from having to pay U.S. federal income taxes and do not vote in presidential elections, but the United States controls trade, foreign relations and commerce, legal procedures, Social Security benefits, etc. They have non-voting representation in Congress, but they are defended and protected by the U.S. Armed Forces.

Three times in the past 43 years Puerto Ricans have voted against becoming the 51st state in the Union, the last time being 11 years ago. But this time the bill is rigged to eliminate the commonwealth option and grant either full statehood, or total independence. Sen. Jose Hernandez-Mayoral of the island’s minority Popular Democratic Party said (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/rigging_the_route_to_st_state_NUH2uCFoY02lLY7UTLEp 5L), “Behind this innocuous bill lies a fully thought out assault on Congress to designate the island the 51st state.” “With the commonwealth option out of the ballot, statehood is finally, albeit crookedly, assured a victory.”

Hernandez-Mayoral is basing his statements on the details of the bill that would allow a yes-or-no vote on whether to maintain the “current political status.” This sounds innocent enough until the second part of the legislation comes into play; a second vote would have to be administered, this one giving Puerto Ricans no option but statehood or full independence if the majority express dissatisfaction with the current political status. Even if there is no dissatisfaction and the “current political status” is favored, every eight years henceforth from the passage of H.R. 2499 the Puerto Ricans must conduct another plebiscite on the matter.

The New Progressive Party (PNP) is the majority party in Puerto Rico’s legislature. The PNP, known by its Spanish acronym, is radically pro-statehood. Right now the PNP is driving bills through Puerto Rico’s legislature that would require a vote on statehood before the end of this year. The PNP has removed the commonwealth option from the plebiscite or referendum. With the option gone, statehood is a certainty, as the island nation simply could not afford its own independence. And, only 34 percent of the vote is needed to achieve statehood. That means only 1/3 of the population, hardly a consensus, could determine a very different economic and political future, even cultural future (http://www.usefoundation.org/view/14#Advantages%20of%20Statehood%20over%20Commonweal th), for Puerto Rico.

At first glance it’s a little difficult to understand why Puerto Rican politicians want to take this route, and why Democrats in the U.S. Congress -- dems outnumber bill supporters almost 3 to 1 -- are so much in favor of Puerto Rican statehood. But Roberto G. DePosada a former president of the Latino Coalition and a senior adviser to the National Coalition of Latino Clergy and Christian Leaders helps to dispel our confusion. In an op-ed he says (http://www.rollcall.com/issues/55_118/ma_congressional_relations/45328-1.html):



One reason is that Puerto Rico’s government is deeply in debt and its economy is weighed down by a bloated public employment sector. Its PNP-led government is desperate. It recently had to furlough 30,000 government workers, and it hopes for a bailout from the U.S. Treasury that it could not hope to get as a commonwealth.

Language in the referendum bill’s rationale is clear: “The economic model under the unincorporated territory [e.g. Commonwealth] political system has collapsed and the government has not been able to guarantee the right to work of thousands of public employees who now find themselves in the unemployment line after being laid off.”


DePosada also believes the plan is to have Puerto Rico achieve statehood and then by sending its newly chosen delegates -- 2 senators and six or seven representatives -- to Congress they will be seated under the same strategy that Tennessee used in 1796 as evidenced by promotors of PR statehood (http://www.prstatehood.com/news/Gorgani.pdf). Anyone who denounces such an action will be labeled as racist given Puerto Rico’s Spanish heritage, so few congressmen will have the courage to object.

Glaringly obvious is that Democrats in Congress who are speedily pushing this bill through would like nothing better than to have Puerto Rico admitted to the Union with the probability of picking up more democratic seats. Because of Puerto Rico’s population, they could pick up many electoral votes as well, since more than 22 other states have smaller populations, which could in turn swing an election.

On the other side, Puerto Ricans would also be subject to the full IRS code -- the surprise of the ever increasing tax burden would hit citizens hard and most likely adversely affect the already high unemployment rate there. Having to help pay for America’s gargantuan deficit and the obscene national debt may not be a good selling point, if the island citizens know and understand it. Many from the island also believe their culture and language would be under assault by being so intensely integrated into American culture.

Rep. Doc Hastings (R-Wa.), who also believes that statehood is the sole purpose of H.R. 2499, had some enlightening perspective on this issue in a Q&A article (http://www.redstate.com/gopnaturalresources/2010/04/23/answers-needed-before-another-star-is-added-to-us-flag/):



Would Puerto Rico statehood mean they would get seats in Congress? Puerto Rico has a population of four million people – as a state, they would receive two U.S. Senators and 6-7 House seats. But as long as there is 435 seat maximum in the House, if Puerto Rico receives 6 seats then other states expecting to gain a seat after the 2010 census would lose representation.

If both Spanish and English are the official language of Puerto Rico, how would that work if it became a state? When the House considered a similar bill in 1998, a vote on the issue of English as the official language was allowed, but it’s unknown whether current House Democrat leaders will allow a similar vote this time.

Would a new state add costs to the federal government? A new state would come with significant costs – spending that would measure in the billions of dollar a year.

Shouldn’t the people of Puerto Rico be allowed to vote to express their views on their future political status? I’m very sympathetic to allowing the people of Puerto Rico to express their views – yet they are free to hold such a vote anytime they choose to conduct one. If a Congressionally-sanctioned vote is going to be held, it must come with an open, thorough understanding of what independence or statehood would mean to Puerto Rico and the existing 50 states. This approach of voting first and answering questions later is exactly backwards. Furthermore, it makes no sense that H.R. 2499 allows not just residents of Puerto Rico to vote, but extends voting privileges to anyone in the other 50 states who was born in Puerto Rico. Why should someone who has lived and voted for decades in Alabama or Wyoming be given special status over their neighbors to vote on whether Puerto Rico becomes a state?


Eddie Garcia of the National Advisory Board of ProEnglish thinks that Puerto Rican statehood would deal a major blow to English as the common language of the United States. And he reminds us that this bill does enjoy wide bipartisan support, with many Republicans signing on to the measure (57 cosponsors) “to show that they’re ‘pro-Hispanic,’” as anything less would be politically incorrect. With 60 to 80 percent of the people non-English speaking, the cost of translating speeches, bills, documents, treaties, etc., on the floor of Congress into Spanish would also be a huge cost factor for Americans to consider.

The people of Puerto Rico have never before clamored for statehood, nor are they doing so now. Many are fiercely proud of their commonwealth status, which is really the best of several scenarios they could have been left with. They are free to travel to the states to earn a living or for other various reasons, and free to go back home at any time. They don’t pay federal income taxes but can collect Social Security benefits and limited welfare benefits.

So, it is the politicians who are using this very opaque, not transparent, legislation as a means to whatever ends they envision for not only Puerto Rico and the United States, but also for the political dynamics this situation might bring with it in the future.

Puerto Rico is a beautiful island with charming people of diverse heritages. They fought in U.S. wars valiantly, as many a war story can attest to. They are predominantly pro-family with a culture they openly celebrate in faith, music, art, literature, etc. Their cities are clean and modern, the country having made some economic gains in the last several decades, but are now suffering from the devaluing of the U.S. dollar. What the people might not be realizing is once statehood is granted to them any dream of independency they once cherished would be lost to them; they would be permanently tied to the economic, political, social and religious climate of the United States.

Contact your congressmen and send a message (http://www.votervoice.net/Groups/JBS/Advocacy/?IssueID=21716&SiteID=-1) that you are unwilling to have them support such a bill until all the political, economic, and cultural details are out on the table, for both Americans and Puerto Ricans. Remind them to oppose H.R. 2499 on the grounds that it is a very bad move in the present economic and financial climate; the financial drain on the rest of the states and the possible political consequences preclude Americans from being in favor of statehood for this island nation of Puerto Rico at this time. After all, shouldn’t both Puerto Ricans AND Americans have a say in the matter?


SOURCE:
http://www.jbs.org/us-constitution-blog/6230-legislation-promotes-statehood-for-puerto-rico

[peacepotpaul]

wouldn't giving them Statehood mean collecting income tax?

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

After all, shouldn’t both Puerto Ricans AND Americans have a say in the matter?

Are you in some disagreement with the constitution as to whether Congress ought to have the authority?



New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union;

[Daamien]

The bill doesn't seem unconstitutional. That's how states are admitted into the Union. However, I oppose it because I believe Puerto Rico should be an independent nation and should not enjoy the federal benefits while retain autonomy. We should grant it independence and if necessary form a free trade, freedom of movement, and military access treaty, and grant dual-citizenship to the living as "appeasement".

[specsaregood]

That article didn't convince me not to support it. In fact I agree with the bill.
Let them choose to become a state or full independence. No more of this protectorate BS. Let them become a state with all the full obligations of being such, or let them stand on their own.

The whole "oh no, more democrats" doesn't work on me, when I despise many republicans as well.

This bill does what I've been saying for a while now.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=203053&highlight=puerto

While we are on the subject, I say we give Puerto Rico one more chance to become a state, if they vote against it again: WE CUT THEM OFF.

[FrankRep]

The whole "oh no, more democrats" doesn't work on me, when I despise many republicans as well.

Obama thanks you. Cap and Trade, see you soon!

[specsaregood]

Obama thanks you. Cap and Trade, see you soon!

My democrat rep voted against it. But some of the republicans in my state voted for it. How about dem apples. You think the people of puerto rico would go for cap and trade? I don't think so.

[low preference guy]

Obama thanks you. Cap and Trade, see you soon!

Bush and Romney thank you! Wars, universal health care, bailouts, government spies, and fascism, see you soon!

[FrankRep]

Bush and Romney thanks you! Wars, universal health care, and fascism, see you soon!
I'm a Ron Paul Republican. ;)

[Galileo Galilei]

keep 'em as an exploited province with no voting rights. That's how the Roman Empire did it.

[low preference guy]

I wouldn't want to make more people live under this tyrannical monster.

Have some sympathy for the Puerto Ricans... oppose this bill.

[specsaregood]

I wouldn't want to make more people live under this tyrannical monster.

Have some sympathy for the Puerto Ricans... oppose this bill.

No, this is a freedom bill in that respect. The puerto ricans get to vote for their independence with this. This bill is giving them the chance to get out from under our thumb. They can vote for full tyranny (statehood) or full freedom. Right now they are caught in the middle.

[low preference guy]

Israel is the one who should become a state! They get a bunch of aid and freebies without paying taxes!

[low preference guy]

No, this is a freedom bill in that respect. The puerto ricans get to vote for their independence with this. This bill is giving them the chance to get out from under our thumb. They can vote for full tyranny (statehood) or full freedom. Right now they are caught in the middle.

Never mind then. Support this bill!

[FrankRep]

No, this is a freedom bill in that respect. The puerto ricans get to vote for their independence with this. This bill is giving them the chance to get out from under our thumb. They can vote for full tyranny (statehood) or full freedom. Right now they are caught in the middle.

Puerto Ricans will be born with $30,000 debt. Suckers!

[Don't Tread on Mike]

if it's a good investment I can't see why not. Is it because 50 is a nice even number? Yea 51 would be a disaster lol.

[FrankRep]

if it's a good investment I can't see why not. Is it because 50 is a nice even number? Yea 51 would be a disaster lol.

Texas (http://www.texasnationalist.com/) should secede and Puerto Rico can take it's place.

[specsaregood]

Puerto Ricans will be born with $30,000 debt. Suckers!

I'm glad you see the light now Frank. That JBS writer is wrong on this and appears to be blinded by the right vs. left lie. We give puerto rico one last opportunity to choose their side. They are being given the chance to vote for their independence and full control of their future. No more wishy-washy protectorate option, independence or not. Will they take it? Besides on the rep vs. dem angle, puerto rico is hardly representative of NE or WC liberals. They may end up being dems, but they would be representing a completely different electorate with different values.

[Daamien]

We can just start putting stars on the reverse side of the flag to not screw up the 50 stars feature. Make sure to start with the normal-sized small white star in the upper left of the blue canton so we can count up to 100! ;)

[FrankRep]

I'm glad you see the light now Frank. That JBS writer is wrong on this and appears to be blinded by the right vs. left lie.

Both Establishment Parties are controlled by the same force, but Puerto Rico will give the Big Government Leftists more power.

[specsaregood]

Both Establishment Parties are controlled by the same force, but Puerto Rico will give the Big Government Leftists more power.

Big government is big government, whatever your flavor. :(
And are you sure they will be "leftist"? my impression might indicate them falling on the social conservative side on many issues.

[haaaylee]

Man, you'd have to be really stupid to want to join the U.S. right now . . .

[american.swan]

O.K. What about other "protectorate" status islands? Solomon Islands for example should become states too? Maybe.

[SamuraisWisdom]

O.K. What about other "protectorate" status islands? Solomon Islands for example should become states too? Maybe.

If they fit the minimum requirements to do so then why not? After all, that's how we grew to the size we are today (50 states) and I don't see anybody complaining. Plus, that's how the Constitution says it's supposed to happen.

It doesn't matter if Puerto Rico coming into the Union would mean more seats for the Democrats because as a state (hypothetically) their voice is just as meaningful as your voice, so if they want Democrats then that's the way it's going to be. That the point of being a Democratic Republic.

[Daamien]

O.K. What about other "protectorate" status islands? Solomon Islands for example should become states too? Maybe.

Like I said for Puerto Rico, they should be granted independence and have a treaty that establishes free trade, freedom of movement, military access, and dual citizenship. As an equal partner in the treaty they would need to ratify it and could eventually leave the treaty unilaterally at their discretion. I am opposed to further statehood from our prior imperialistic acquisitions. These lands should be sovereign and governed by their inhabitants, not by bureaucrats thousands of miles away (similar to our reasons for independence from Great Britain).

[Shotdown1027]

No, this is a freedom bill in that respect. The puerto ricans get to vote for their independence with this. This bill is giving them the chance to get out from under our thumb. They can vote for full tyranny (statehood) or full freedom. Right now they are caught in the middle.

You think the United States is "full tyranny"? I'd hate to hear what you call the Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea, Nazi Germany, etc. Seriously, this sort of doom-saying hyperbole is what makes our movement sound crazy.

[BuddyRey]

Dang! Getting to vote for one of the U.S.'s glorious Presidential candidates every four years versus not having to pay any federal taxes and getting to keep your own money? If I were a Puerto Rican, I'd be chomping at the bit for this bill to pass!!!

/sarcasm

[Galileo Galilei]

Puerto Rico independent? Wow, really? They could be scooped up by any number of military powers.

[Shotdown1027]

O.K. What about other "protectorate" status islands? Solomon Islands for example should become states too? Maybe.

I think the Northern Marianas Islands should join at the same time as Puerto Rico.

[Cinderella]

bump

[specsaregood]

You think the United States is "full tyranny"? I'd hate to hear what you call the Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea, Nazi Germany, etc. Seriously, this sort of doom-saying hyperbole is what makes our movement sound crazy.

Your comparisons don't dispute my claim. In what area has our government restrained itself in exercising power? In recent memory.

Like I said, lets force them to decide. If they like what they see in the US, they are welcome to join. If not, then let them go on their way. I think we should do this for all US protectorates.

[Southron]

Don't do it Puerto Rico! It's a trick!

"You can check out any time you want, but you can never leave"

[leonster]

I support the bill, actually. (Assuming there isn't any other stuff in there I don't know about.)

I think the US having "territories" held over from past wars is rather... distasteful at best. I thought years ago about this, and I thought the best route was to offer them a straight independence/statehood vote. I'm fine with either of those two happening, but not with them continuing as a territory.

In the past they've had several votes, but always with three choices: independence/territory of the US/statehood. Continuing as a territory has always won a plurality--though not a majority.

Have them choose--no more ruling it over them without letting them be quite full members of the country.

[FrankRep]

Don't do it Puerto Rico! It's a trick!

"You can check out any time you want, but you can never leave"

Puerto Rico has said NO three times already.

[leonster]

Your comparisons don't dispute my claim. In what area has our government restrained itself in exercising power? In recent memory.

Like I said, lets force them to decide. If they like what they see in the US, they are welcome to join. If not, then let them go on their way. I think we should do this for all US protectorates.

Agreed. We have a bunch of territories in the Pacific too. Lump them all together into a 52nd state or let them part peacefully and become minor Oceanic nations like Vanuatu, Micronesia, etc.

[angelatc]

Your comparisons don't dispute my claim. In what area has our government restrained itself in exercising power? In recent memory.

Like I said, lets force them to decide. If they like what they see in the US, they are welcome to join. If not, then let them go on their way. I think we should do this for all US protectorates.

I've never heard anything that indicated that Puerto Rico wanted to be a state.

[leonster]

Puerto Rico has said NO three times already.

A plurality has said it wants to continue being a dependent territory. A majority has said it wants to change from this--they just disagree on statehood vs. independence.

[specsaregood]

I've never heard anything that indicated that Puerto Rico wanted to be a state.

Exactly. They vote against it everytime. Obviously they would prefer to get the benefits of our country, without any liabilities. Enough of that. That is why I like this bill, they can either throw their lot in with us or go their own way.

[Cinderella]

exactly. They vote against it everytime. obviously they would prefer to get the benefits of our country, without any liabilities. Enough of that. that is why i like this bill, they can either throw their lot in with us or go their own way.

yes!!!

[ChaosControl]

Puerto Ricans are exempt from having to pay U.S. federal income taxes and do not vote in presidential elections, but the United States controls trade, foreign relations and commerce, legal procedures, Social Security benefits, etc. They have non-voting representation in Congress, but they are defended and protected by the U.S. Armed Forces.

Okay, why the hell would they want state hood?
Sounds like every state would be better off if they were like puerto rico instead of having statehood.


Three times in the past 43 years Puerto Ricans have voted against becoming the 51st state in the Union, the last time being 11 years ago. But this time the bill is rigged to eliminate the commonwealth option and grant either full statehood, or total independence. Sen. Jose Hernandez-Mayoral of the island’s minority Popular Democratic Party said, “Behind this innocuous bill lies a fully thought out assault on Congress to designate the island the 51st state.” “With the commonwealth option out of the ballot, statehood is finally, albeit crookedly, assured a victory.”

Oh, so the people don't want to be a state, but the politician scumbags there want to try and force it on the people by preventing them the best option of remaining a commonwealth. If I were the people, I'd vote for independence.


Hernandez-Mayoral is basing his statements on the details of the bill that would allow a yes-or-no vote on whether to maintain the “current political status.” This sounds innocent enough until the second part of the legislation comes into play; a second vote would have to be administered, this one giving Puerto Ricans no option but statehood or full independence if the majority express dissatisfaction with the current political status. Even if there is no dissatisfaction and the “current political status” is favored, every eight years henceforth from the passage of H.R. 2499 the Puerto Ricans must conduct another plebiscite on the matter.

I guess it sounds like they should vote yes to maintain it. 8 more years of having the best of both worlds.


And, only 34 percent of the vote is needed to achieve statehood
That is absolutely disgusting. That PNP sounds every bit as bad as our D and Rs.

[Daamien]

We should just bomb them.


Oh wait, we already have:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vieques,_Puerto_Rico#Protests_and_departure_of_the _United_States_Navy

[Cinderella]

so if they become their own nation what happens to the large influx of illegal puerto ricans that are here in the states?

[Old Ducker]

Israel is the one who should become a state! They get a bunch of aid and freebies without paying taxes!

Worst.
Idea.
Ever.

[peacepotpaul]

Israel is the one who should become a state! They get a bunch of aid and freebies without paying taxes!

but then they'd have only 2 Senators

[Todd]

wouldn't giving them Statehood mean collecting income tax?

That's a good reason?

[peacepotpaul]

That's a good reason?

what would be then?

[EN81]

I support statehood for Puerto Rico, for many of the aforementioned reasons. In addition, the increased Latino population will make it harder for conservatives who propose anti-immigration bills, or who propose to make English the official language of the U.S. The U.S. should be a multilingual nation with open borders.

[JamesButabi]

but then they'd have only 2 Senators

I see what you did there.

[MelissaWV]

Dang! Getting to vote for one of the U.S.'s glorious Presidential candidates every four years versus not having to pay any federal taxes and getting to keep your own money? If I were a Puerto Rican, I'd be chomping at the bit for this bill to pass!!!

/sarcasm


Puerto Rico residents are required to pay U.S. federal taxes, import/export taxes, federal commodity taxes, social security taxes etc. The only exemption is federal income taxes since residents pay federal payroll taxes (Social Security and Medicare), as well as Commonwealth of Puerto Rico income taxes. All federal employees, plus those who do business with the federal government, in addition to Puerto Rico-based corporations that intend to send funds to the U.S., and some others also pay federal income taxes.

Because residents of Puerto Rico pay into Social Security, they are eligible for Social Security benefits upon retirement, but are excluded from the Supplemental Security Income (SSI), and the island actually receives less than 15% of the Medicaid funding it would normally receive if it were a U.S. state. Yet Medicare providers receive less-than-full state-like reimbursements for services rendered to beneficiaries in Puerto Rico, even though the latter paid fully into the system.

Not everyone in Puerto Rico pays Federal Income Tax (some are actually required to), but there are certainly plenty of other "contributions" to be made. The island's Government, and US Federal involvement on the island, make it a big fat hideous mess. There's also a hell of an immigration problem there, but it never quite gets all the press the Mexican border does (that border is so much bigger).

This Resolution is to "allow" the vote, and the vote wouldn't even be binding.

If the options are purely Statehood or Independence... even though a lot of people will suffer, I hope they cut loose. Maybe what's left once the US's tentacles let go can be made into something good.

[Austin]

FYI, Ron Paul is a cosponsor of this bill.

[MelissaWV]

FYI, Ron Paul is a cosponsor of this bill.

It doesn't shock me.

This isn't a bill calling for one thing or another, and the vote's not even binding. It lets the people decide. Of course, PR's politics are corrupt as fuck. It probably will come to nothing, like the dozens and dozens of prior attempts either way.

[Promontorium]

Interesting subject.

I think the arguments for statehood, continued dependence, and independence are valid. I have no concluding opinion.

However I did notice a few invalid points. First and foremost, when California became a state, Spanish had been the ONLY official language. At least with Puerto Rico, they have English too. So that English centric argument holds no water. Plus it's just insane to think making it a state would magically force some boy in Illinois to take 7 years of Spanish in elementary school.

Also, D.C. is not a state.


I did like the idea of making all our states territories, if that's what it means to be a territory, I don't know why anyone would want statehood.

[AlexMerced]

Let the people vote, I don't see anything inherently wrong with a bill giving people an OPTION, I still don't see why PR would want to be a state... but let them have that debate.

[specsaregood]

At least with Puerto Rico, they have English too. So that English centric argument holds no water. Plus it's just insane to think making it a state would magically force some boy in Illinois to take 7 years of Spanish in elementary school.

Have you been to PR? Other than at tourist places, good luck getting them to speak english. They might be fluent in it, but damn if you can get them to admit they speak even a word of it.

[AlexMerced]

Have you been to PR? Other than at tourist places, good luck getting them to speak english. They might be fluent in it, but damn if you can get them to admit they speak even a word of it.

I have been to Puerto Rico... I have family there, lol

There a freaking island, if they were state they'd have as much influence as alaska or hawaii... which isn't much, worst case scenario we'll end up with PR version of Sarah Palin... Soledad Cruz, fish hunting soccer mom who can see Trinidad from her window

[Brian4Liberty]

YouTube - Sting - If You Love Somebody Set Them Free (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTEm6oVPUD0)

[specsaregood]

//

[specsaregood]

there we go, 90 minutes of debate on the bill on cspan.

[MelissaWV]

...
Btw, they have been voting all morning on whether to discuss this bill in the house today. The blue-team - YAY, the red-team - NAY. Looks like the blue team is gonna win that issue.

In other words, it's a big long dog & pony show for people who might have been all a-quiver about not being seen as loving Hispanics enough, or loving illegals and wanting amnesty, to concentrate on an entirely fruitless debate and purposeless bill.

Of course the premise of the bill is sound. It's a vote to allow a vote. I can't believe people can debate so long about absolutely nothing.

* ~ * ~ *

As for people not speaking English, part of the problem is that "conversational" English differs so much from "learned" English, and varies almost person to person. I think some poeople just enjoy being hoity toity or difficult, and get frustrated otherwise. Those in outlying areas or who do not have a formal education of any sort, or who are elderly and can't be bothered to learn English at this point, simply don't know. It's a bit like forming complex sentences with fabulously long words in any particular area of the USA where you know they are likely not to be understood.

I kind of like the USA the way it is. I have no idea what this man is saying, I don't look like these people, but I know it's a catchy tune:

YouTube - New Orleans Louisiana Creole Cajun Zydeco Music. Blues & Jazz of Mardi Gras Fat Tuesday NOLA Saints (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXId-5dYJjE)

Chill out, have fun, and I'm sorry you didn't know how to speak Spanish when you went to Puerto Rico. Now you know it's a good idea :) For further reference, it's also wise to stock up on sunscreen, bugspray, small bills, flipflops, towels, and you should probably travel with a few pairs of underwear. :D

[specsaregood]

//

[constituent]

edit: naaah, that's not what they REALLY meant at all. ;)

[teamrican1]

I have been to Puerto Rico... I have family there, lol

There a freaking island, if they were state they'd have as much influence as alaska or hawaii... which isn't much, worst case scenario we'll end up with PR version of Sarah Palin... Soledad Cruz, fish hunting soccer mom who can see Trinidad from her window

The politics of Puerto Rico are pretty bad. Statehood means 2 more votes in the Senate for Obama/Bush style statism. Statehood would be bad for the American people and bad for the people of Puerto Rico. The only winners would be the Federal Government.

[specsaregood]

This bill is amazingly dividied by people pro/con on both sides. It is not turning out to be a blue vs. red bill.

[MelissaWV]

Oh, I don't really fault them, it is their island. I'm sure they got a kick out of me stumbling through my spainglish, but it was a bit frustrating considering I knew full well some of them could speak english. :) And considering I lived on another carib island where english was only one of 3 languages and not the primary, it wasn't really a new experience to me.

Btw, they are busy debating it and one issue was brought up that I didn't care for. This referendum would allow anybody born in PR to vote on the future direction of the island, including those living in the US or even US citizens now. That ain't right.

It is and it isn't. In theory, a lot of us are supporting family members still on the island. There is a lot of entirely legal, good-intentioned money that flies back and forth there.

In practice, it opens the whole thing up to a huge amount of fraud and helps render the whole thing even nuller than void.

The bolded statement is misleading. The people on the island are also already US citizens.

[specsaregood]

//

[erowe1]

the vote's not even binding.

What's that mean? I somehow missed that it's not binding. Or maybe I misunderstand you.

If this bill passes our Congress and then gets signed by Obama, then PR will have a vote of whether or not to stay a territory, and if they vote not to, then they will have another vote of whether to become a state or independent (or independent with some kind of special relationship). And if they do vote to become a state, doesn't that mean that's it? They'll be a state?

Or would there be some additional vote after that on our end of whether or not the USA will take them as a new state? If not, then I'd say this vote looks binding to me. It's pending the outcome of the PR votes, which are out of our hands, but still binding.

[specsaregood]

Or would there be some additional vote after that on our end of whether or not the USA will take them as a new state? If not, then I'd say this vote looks binding to me. It's pending the outcome of the PR votes, which are out of our hands, but still binding.

Yeah, thats what they are saying. Even if PR votes to become a state, the congress still dictates how they are admitted or even if they are admitted as a state and this would have to be voted on.

[erowe1]

Yeah, thats what they are saying. Even if PR votes to become a state, the congress still dictates how they are admitted or even if they are admitted as a state and this would have to be voted on.

Ohhhh. Well in that case, what's the big deal?

Also, I didn't see that in the summary at Thomas.gov. How do you know that's right?

[specsaregood]

Ohhhh. Well in that case, what's the big deal?

Also, I didn't see that in the summary at Thomas.gov. How do you know that's right?

Dunno if its right, just what the reps are saying in the debate.

The big debate here is the people who want to keep the status quo as an option and those that don't. And the argument is that by forcing them to decide, we are overruling their right to self-determination. LOL. I don't know about that logic. The rep from PR is the sponsor of the bill. Surprisingly, it seems most of those vocally opposed are democrats, but it is divided on both parts.

[Zippyjuan]

From what I am reading on it, the bill "allows" (are they not allowed to do so now?) Puerto Rico to have a ballot issue which asks if the citizens wish to continue with their present status as a US possession or not. If they say yes, that is the end of it. If they vote no, then they can vote on three options. One is to attempt to become a state (the bill cannot grant them statehood even if the vote in Puerto Rico is in favor of that option) or second to become an independent country, or some sovereign association with the US. It only authorizes an opinion poll. Any actual change would require action by Congress and this is not proposed at this time. There is no required action by Congress however the votes in Puerto Rico come out so this is nothing to get excited about. In previoius votes, Puerto Rico has rejected the idea of becoming a state. Perhaps the intent is not to make them a state but to offer them independence.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/29/congress-debates-puerto-r_n_557230.html

[MelissaWV]

Zippy,

The reason for this back and forth goes something like this (and for lack of better terms I keep using US and PR as separate things, because typing out distinctions would take up waaaaaaaay too much time/space)...

The US owns PR. It won it fair and square. There really isn't the same kind of "they took our land!" rancor your hear to some of the discourse in the SW US between Mexico and the US, so things are a little friendlier on that front.

PR can put things on the ballot all it wants to within constitutional boundaries. The trouble with this issue is that not clearing it with the US first is like asking everyone on a plane if they'd like chocolate cake or strawberry cheesecake, or maybe a big banana split. Let all the passengers mull it over, and then vote. Then when the vote passes, you tell the stewardess "OK! We've decided we want chocolate cake!" and she looks at you and says "We don't HAVE chocolate cake." The plane just got really ugly.

Before the expense and stupidity of the huge political circus that everything in PR becomes, one must have drama. Without the consent, the assurance, the attention of Congress... there is no glimmer that your pet side will win. There is also a chance that, if the unsanctioned vote comes out "wrong," Congress will say "To hell with you!" and not count it anyhow.

It really is an opinion poll, but an expensive one. This is going to employ people, and that's probably the goal. Almost everyone I know who's actually working over there anymore works for banks or government... or government banks :p

I kind of want to become ridiculously rich, buy up a huge section of the island, bulldoze most of the buildings and such in that area, clean out the trash, rehabilitate it, bring in trees from the rest of the isle and have a nice little space where it can start over. I wouldn't even live there.

* * *

A lot of us don't go back, specs. If you drove past "that house you grew up in" and saw garbage, rats, someone smoking out of a hole in their throat, broken windows, and so on... you wouldn't know where to begin. The problems are extensive, but they depend on what happens in DC politics. They feed the trolls.

[JacobR248]

As long as it's constitutional it's fine by me, but from what I've been hearing (haven't made a full opinion yet) the bill seems vague and deceiving. The bill should be straight forward and the creation of a new state should be by constitutional means.

Make it clear so that the Puerto Rican public and they're political leaders know what they're getting themselves into. If they want to be admitted into the Union, then I'm all eyes on to see how it turns out. I mean generally I don't have any big disagreements about it nor do I favor it highly. Let's see how this turns out.

[Daamien]

I don't think a congressional bill can simply remove a territory that isn't being ceded to another nation, wouldn't out-right independence require a treaty (see: Treaty of Paris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Paris_%281783%29)for US Independence) that recognizes Puerto Rico as an independent and sovereign nation while establishing national borders? Otherwise Puerto Rico would be a de facto rather than de jure nation. I'm sure follow-on legislation and treaties would occur to establish an independent nation, but this bill alone technically wouldn't.

[Zippyjuan]

What "huge cost"? It could be done as a ballot question as a part of a normal election. Other than printing and counting an additional item on the ballot, costs would be marginal at best. If the Puerto Ricans decided they wanted to conduct the poll (it is up to them whether or not to do it) they of course would pay for it.

I just don't understand why people are getting so excited about just an opinion poll. There is no promise of statehood or independence at the end of it. I have a friend who is all in a panic over this because he sees it as Obama wanting to get Puerto Rico as a state so they can all vote democratic for him. Others see it as a way to keep Puerto Ricans from having the right to being US citizens if the country is allowed to go independent (an anti-immigrant approach). Some see possible statehood as a good thing (collect more taxes from them) or bad (pay more welfare and social security benifits to them). The bill in Congress does none of that. It changes absolutely nothing. Yet people are going crazy over it. It is just silly in my opinion.

[specsaregood]

What "huge cost"? It could be done as a ballot question as a part of a normal election. Other than printing and counting an additional item on the ballot, costs would be marginal at best. If the Puerto Ricans decided they wanted to conduct the poll (it is up to them whether or not to do it) they of course would pay for it.

Interestingly enough, they spent a lot of time debating amendments that would force PR to have the entire legislation on the ballot in English.



I have a friend who is all in a panic over this because he sees it as Obama wanting to get Puerto Rico as a state so they can all vote democratic for him.
And that was the position the JBS article in the OP took. But from what I saw, it was democrat reps that were most vocally opposed to it. Oh, and their current governor is a republican.

[NH4RonPaul]

I am not sure why Ron Paul voted for this. I had someone from PR say that if I oppose it, I'm for 'US Imperialism'. Say what? I told him, I live in a state that would LOVE to secede... why in heck do they want to come under our FED??? They don't pay taxes as it is now... they are independent.

Seems to me imperialism would be US gobbling them up. Let's face it the liberals know they are in trouble and with amnesty, statehood for PR, and voting rights for DC, that will add millions of votes to their side of the roster.

I am just doing what I think I would want if I were a PR resident.
So has anyone written to the Doc to find out where he stands on this and why he's a sponsor?

[NH4RonPaul]

What "huge cost"? It could be done as a ballot question as a part of a normal election. Other than printing and counting an additional item on the ballot, costs would be marginal at best. If the Puerto Ricans decided they wanted to conduct the poll (it is up to them whether or not to do it) they of course would pay for it.

I just don't understand why people are getting so excited about just an opinion poll. There is no promise of statehood or independence at the end of it. I have a friend who is all in a panic over this because he sees it as Obama wanting to get Puerto Rico as a state so they can all vote democratic for him. Others see it as a way to keep Puerto Ricans from having the right to being US citizens if the country is allowed to go independent (an anti-immigrant approach). Some see possible statehood as a good thing (collect more taxes from them) or bad (pay more welfare and social security benifits to them). The bill in Congress does none of that. It changes absolutely nothing. Yet people are going crazy over it. It is just silly in my opinion.

Look up the Tennessee amendment - YES IT IS, it's to put it to a vote!

[NH4RonPaul]

The Tennessee Plan

http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2003/vol7n28/TenessPlan-en.html

[Daamien]

I am not sure why Ron Paul voted for this.

Probably because it permits the self-determination of the Puerto Rican people as opposed to being perpetually an "overseas dependency" acquired through imperialistic ambitions generations ago.

[tangent4ronpaul]

The Puerto Rico bill just passed. Get ready for 4 Million new dem voters, more dem congress critters, bit more tax revenue coming in, Medicare, Medicaid, hwy finds, Welfare, etc. split more ways and the TPOTA of adding a new star to the flag. Where to put it????

Vote was split 2/5 No, and 3/5 yes - a true bipartisan vote. Rarity these days.

-t

[specsaregood]

The Puerto Rico bill just passed. Get ready for 4 Million new dem voters, more dem congress critters,

You are aware they have a republican governor in PR? And what makes you think they won't decide on independence?

[Daamien]

Even if they decide on statehood Congress would need to pass a separate bill to admit Puerto Rico into the Union as a State. This whole bill is non-binding, but I hope it does lead to their independence.

[RedStripe]

Wait, why am I supposed to fear democrats more than republicans again?

[MelissaWV]

What "huge cost"? It could be done as a ballot question as a part of a normal election. Other than printing and counting an additional item on the ballot, costs would be marginal at best. If the Puerto Ricans decided they wanted to conduct the poll (it is up to them whether or not to do it) they of course would pay for it.

I just don't understand why people are getting so excited about just an opinion poll. There is no promise of statehood or independence at the end of it. ...

Puerto Rico's in deep financial distress right now.

The "normal" plebiscite costs were something like $8-$9million I think. This is an election that purports to involve mainland Puerto Ricans. That would mean advertising in at least major markets during acceptable time slots, maybe mailing something out with the new birth certificates we're all supposed to get from the Government in July (lots of Mexicans are going to get those fliers :D ). It would mean the usual political bluster on the island. It implies bribes to the right people, but that doesn't get counted. It involves protestors and those meant to make the other protestors look bad. It will probably involve one or two huge Unions that go on strike to show support, or opposition, or whatever they've decided to show. Usually it's either the power or the water that goes on the fritz when these big fiascos go on.

*shrugs* It won't amount to anything (the votes, all that), but damn. I thought we were done with this merry-go-round. I'm getting a bit queasy. Arizona's law is a little "eh"... I need a new birth certificate, but no one's really notifying anyone (it's word of mouth; you'd think there'd be a better way to inform someone their main form of actually showing their original identity and citizenship is going to become invalid), and that is a slightly bigger "Eh?!"... and at what is going to wind up becoming a big huge Race-Banner slumber party (with the cliche "white supremecists" invited for entertainment and shock value, of course), Puerto Rico is going to out itself one way or another on statehood? "EH?!?!?" This is a stupid time to do this.

* * *

Someone pointed me to this the other day, and though it's got a shitload of political blustering, a healthy dose of blame-shifting, and just a pinch of mislaid blame (don't all political speeches/writings?), it fills in some blanks for people who have no real context for the island at all:

http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/vol3n24/PlebHearing-en.html

[MelissaWV]

You are aware they have a republican governor in PR? And what makes you think they won't decide on independence?

How many Presidential delegates is the island going to get, and how are they selected, and what are the requirements? Those would be way more important than the "potential voters" people are whining so much about.

[Daamien]

It has almost exactly 4 million residents:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population

That would give it 7 votes in the electoral college based on having a hypothetical 5 congressional representatives.

[tangent4ronpaul]

You are aware they have a republican governor in PR? And what makes you think they won't decide on independence?

The prior 3 times they voted on this the question was "do you want to become a state"? - the answer was always no.

This time the question will be "are you happy with the status quo?" - if polling had not shown that that would be answered with "no", it would not be in the bill. They want some change.

If they answer "no" - they get a 3, instead of 5 question poll, and the other 2 answers are much less popular than becoming a state. The answer the people want won't be on the ballot.

This is a Trojan horse.

-t

[nbhadja]

wouldn't giving them Statehood mean collecting income tax?

The only reason PR is not a 3rd world slum is because America funds it. The way it is now sucks because they are just a big welfare nation that the US citizens pay for, but letting them become a state is not much better. Most of the people in PR will benefit from subsidization and welfare. Also most of PR will vote for big government, more welfare, less liberty.

The solution is to deny them statehood but also relinquishing control of PR altogether. Let them survive without mooching off of the backs of US tax payers.

[nbhadja]

That article didn't convince me not to support it. In fact I agree with the bill.
Let them choose to become a state or full independence. No more of this protectorate BS. Let them become a state with all the full obligations of being such, or let them stand on their own.

The whole "oh no, more democrats" doesn't work on me, when I despise many republicans as well.

This bill does what I've been saying for a while now.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=203053&highlight=puerto

Yes most republicans are idiot neocons but look around the RP fan base- most here are former neocons. Some here were never into politics but only a small percent here are former liberals. PR is mainly liberal.

Most who receive welfare and benefit from subsidization will not support decreasing the size of the government.

Also I can tell you that because of the average income levels in PR and the progressive nature of our tax system, PR will take a hell of a lot more than they will give. You won't get much tax money from their citizens.

The best solution is to give up control over PR and let them become fully independent.