Am I the only one against all this Immigration bills?

[Vessol]

All I see it as is an excuse to expand the government. An excuse for searches of homes and cars. An excuse to create a national ID card system. An excuse to expand the police state. I'm not going to argue about the Constituionality of it or whatever, all I see is an excuse to expand the police state.

You of all people should know that whatever the bureaucracy tries to do to fix a problem will fail and never work, whether it is State or Federal. It simply won't be effective and will only cost you and me more money.

What we should be fighting for is ending the welfare system that brings all these illegal immigrants here. That is the only way to solve the problem with illegal immigration.

No fence will work. No law will work. No matter how many police you send there will solve it.

I thought my fellow liberty lovers would agree with me. But, no, I'm finding more and more comments saying how great this Arizona legislation is and how we need a strong border defense. There's a big difference between proper border defense and making it impossible to cross(which will never happen). I've even read sickening comments going as far as recommending we kill all illegal immigrants, sterilize them all, nuke Mexico, lace our border with mines and wires. Whatever bullshit. What the fuck? I thought you were liberty loving people, these are the suggestions of big government lovers, people who love the government.

In a true free market, you wouldn't have to worry about illegal immigration as it would flow naturally into the system.
And do not give my the excuse that "well ending the welfare system would be best, but we can't do that, so we want laws that don't do anything". They say the same thing about Ending the Federal Reserve, and I don't see any of you making that excuse for Ending the Fed.

[yongrel]

For some people here, liberty is a justification of convenience, not a central value.

[MelissaWV]

Obviously not, if you read the other 100 threads and polls on the subject :)

[Vessol]

Obviously not, if you read the other 100 threads and polls on the subject :)

Sorry, I've been away from these boards for awhile and have gotten very depressed at reading all the stuff at other "liberty" forums.

[low preference guy]

nah, I'm against the bill as well.

There are many problems in this country, most of them caused by statism, but many here show a lot more hatred towards immigrants than towards statism and statist politicians.

[speciallyblend]

i am against the bill. what they should do is run every AZ citizen thru a clearing house/detainment center and if legal set them free and if illegal deport them, might take a few months but they can process them all one by one and either detain them or let them go;) just grid of az and go trench to trench!!

[silus]

No, you're not the only one. Look at the results here...

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=241788

[dannno]

I'm on your side. The Constitution is, too. So is Ron Paul and Judge Napolitano (although they agree the state has the right to make the law, it opens them up for lawsuits because it is inherently unconstitutional)

[dannno]

This is one of those issues that really tests people. You get to see what side of the Constitution they are really on.

[speciallyblend]

I'm on your side. The Constitution is, too. So is Ron Paul and Judge Napolitano (although they agree the state has the right to make the law, it opens them up for lawsuits because it is inherently unconstitutional)

i like the clearinghouse idea. then no one in az can complain. they will all be run thru a clearinghouse to verify citizenship!! they just better hope they have their papers in order;)

[phill4paul]

I'm with you. The problems affecting America is not immigrants whether legal or illegal. It falls solely on the federal government.

[dannno]

i like the clearinghouse idea. then no one in az can complain. they will all be run thru a clearinghouse to verify citizenship!! they just better hope they have their papers in order;)

What about camps?

We can just throw everybody in AZ in camps and let the guards sort it out... I mean we've GOT to get this immigration thing under control!!

[speciallyblend]

What about camps?

We can just throw everybody in AZ in camps and let the guards sort it out... I mean we've GOT to get this immigration thing under control!!

exactly;) let the guards sort it out!!!! would be cheaper since they can focus their time and energy on verifying everyone!! might take a month or 2 maybe 3 but AZ citizens would be ok with making sure they get illegals out of AZ, so they would cooperate with law enforcement;) All in the name of Freedom and Security ;) they could implement the snitch program in the camps as well to help speed the process up!!

[Vessol]

Well more illegals would still come. So make it a semi-annual thing. "Come on kids, we have to go to the camps this here to be verified by the government".

[speciallyblend]

Well more illegals would still come. So make it a semi-annual thing. "Come on kids, we have to go to the camps this here to be verified by the government".

yeah they can bill it as a vacation spot in the desert.model it after maricopa bs sheriff!!

[phill4paul]

Well more illegals would still come. So make it a semi-annual thing. "Come on kids, we have to go to the camps this here to be verified by the government".

Even better we could have continual checkpoints at state borders and every township and city. DHS could coordinate it. Yeah that's the ticket!

If any American citizen is caught up in one and detained because of lack of identification we could impose a fine equal to the amount of law enforcement man hours needed to certify they were citizens.

It's for the good of America!

[mikem317]

They're not mutually exclusive: We can abolish the welfare-warfare state AND protect this nation's borders simultaneously.

Once the entitlement system breaks, and it will, migrants, both illegal and legal, will have little reason to come and all the reason to leave. Same thing for native born Americans.

They're talking about illegal immigration in 2010. In 2012, we'll be talking about illegal emigration.

[Vessol]

Whats the point in even having legal or illegal immigration without a welfare system?

If someone wants to come here and work hard to succeed, let them I say.

[micahnelson]

Vessol dont you get it? They are coming here and taking all our jobs, and what makes it worse is that they sit around and do nothing all day collecting welfare. They are not assimilating into our culture, and at the same time they are radically infiltrating our culture. They dont get educated, and at the same time they are ruining our education by forcing us to teach in spanish.

Amazing.

[Fr3shjive]

Threads like these keep my faith in the liberty movement. Its amazing how quickly people are willing to throw out the constitution as long as it only affects the minority scapegoat.

[AlexMerced]

Vessol dont you get it? They are coming here and taking all our jobs, and what makes it worse is that they sit around and do nothing all day collecting welfare. They are not assimilating into our culture, and at the same time they are radically infiltrating our culture. They dont get educated, and at the same time they are ruining our education by forcing us to teach in spanish.

Amazing.

Talk about Aggregations of generalities contradicting each other at it's worse, I'mt not gonna even bother

[South Park Fan]

Well more illegals would still come. So make it a semi-annual thing. "Come on kids, we have to go to the camps this here to be verified by the government".

It would be even easier if people weren't allowed to leave the camps, that way the government wouldn't have to go through the trouble of constantly checking people and the people wouldn't have to go through the trouble of trying to remember what day the verification is. Since the entire population will be in the camps, anyone outside of the camps would have to be an illegal. :rolleyes:

[phill4paul]

WTF? I thought this was a liberty forums. I thought the people here were individuals that actually understand how the government plays us against each other.

I'm pretty fuckin' disgusted by many post.:(

[John Taylor]

I'm on your side. The Constitution is, too. So is Ron Paul and Judge Napolitano (although they agree the state has the right to make the law, it opens them up for lawsuits because it is inherently unconstitutional)

Bullputty. I haven't heard RP say that this bill is unconstitutional, because it isn't. Ron wouldn't be tolerant of a state doing something if it were an unconstitutional action. Period. Arizona's government is empowered by the people of Arizona to protect the citizens of Arizona. It is now empowered to remove the 12th of the population who are illegally present, and gently return them to their homes in their country of origin.

[EndDaFed]

Talk about Aggregations of generalities contradicting each other at it's worse, I'mt not gonna even bother

I think and hope he was being sarcastic.

[Fr3shjive]

Bullputty. I haven't heard RP say that this bill is unconstitutional, because it isn't. Ron wouldn't be tolerant of a state doing something if it were an unconstitutional action. Period. Arizona's government is empowered by the people of Arizona to protect the citizens of Arizona. It is now empowered to remove the 12th of the population who are illegally present, and gently return them to their homes in their country of origin.
Would it change your mind if RP said it was unconstitutional? Sounds like you're pretty intent on supporting this law regardless.

[South Park Fan]

Bullputty. I haven't heard RP say that this bill is unconstitutional, because it isn't. Ron wouldn't be tolerant of a state doing something if it were an unconstitutional action. Period. Arizona's government is empowered by the people of Arizona to protect the citizens of Arizona. It is now empowered to remove the 12th of the population who are illegally present, and gently return them to their homes in their country of origin.

http://inplacenews.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/448a07d7cb24f_s.jpg

Yeah, that sure looks gentle. :rolleyes:

[07041826]

I'm thinking that the law may violate the Bill of Rights (which recognizes the natural rights of people- not citizens) and therefore I am opposed. If it can be proven constitutional then it's not my business as I live in CA.

[EndDaFed]

http://inplacenews.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/448a07d7cb24f_s.jpg

Yeah, that sure looks gentle. :rolleyes:

How dare that kid be afraid of the polite man pointing a gun at his head.

[John Taylor]

Would it change your mind if RP said it was unconstitutional? Sounds like you're pretty intent on supporting this law regardless.

If the law were unconstitutional, I'd oppose it until the last dog died, but I don't believe it is for a number of reasons: it merely enshrines as enforceable, pre-existing and constitutional federal immigration laws; it requires a reasonable suspicion of a crime to have occured prior to investigating someone's status, and it does nothing overall that the federal law enforcement are not doing daily in their futile attempts to staunch the flow of illegals.

I just haven't seen Ron come out against it, as you all say he has, so I'm curious where you have been getting your information.

[chadhb]

Threads like these keep my faith in the liberty movement. Its amazing how quickly people are willing to throw out the constitution as long as it only affects the minority scapegoat.

Ever been to Los Angeles? When 1st world cities turn into 3rd world hell holes, it is not a scape goat it is reality. L.A. is a complete pile of shit, because of Mexicans and i'm not even talking about the drain of resoures. I'm talking the complete pile of living crap that L.A. has turned into in a matter of 30 years.

The police can pull you over anytime they want now, so time to suck it up, while they get this under control. I welcome this police state in California, bring it on.

[John Taylor]

How dare that kid be afraid of the polite man pointing a gun at his head.

Cubans are treated differently under federal law, they have automatic sanctuary if and when they touch American soil.

[Fr3shjive]

Ever been to Los Angeles? When 1st world cities turn into 3rd world hell holes, it is not a scape goat it is reality. L.A. is a complete pile of shit, because of Mexicans and i'm not even talking about the drain of resoures. I'm talking the complete pile of living crap that L.A. has turned into in a matter of 30 years.

The police can pull you over anytime they want now, so time to suck it up, while they get this under control. I welcome this police state in California, bring it on.You must be trolling.

Im not sure what you're doing on a liberty forum but I sure as hell am not willing to sacrifice my 4th amendment right.

[South Park Fan]

Cubans are treated differently under federal law, they have automatic sanctuary if and when they touch American soil.

That's a red herring. You claimed that deporting millions of immigrants would be "gentle", and I responded with a picture of the government deporting one immigrant. If they fucked up that, how do you think they are going to handle that times several million? Also, why should Cubans and Mexicans be treated differently?

[Fr3shjive]

If the law were unconstitutional, I'd oppose it until the last dog died, but I don't believe it is for a number of reasons: it merely enshrines as enforceable, pre-existing and constitutional federal immigration laws; it requires a reasonable suspicion of a crime to have occured prior to investigating someone's status, and it does nothing overall that the federal law enforcement are not doing daily in their futile attempts to staunch the flow of illegals.

I just haven't seen Ron come out against it, as you all say he has, so I'm curious where you have been getting your information.
I actually didnt say that RP has come out against it. I simply asked if you would still support it if RP was opposed to it.

[John Taylor]

You must be trolling.

Im not sure what you're doing on a liberty forum but I sure as hell am not willing to sacrifice my 4th amendment right.

What part of the AZ bill violates the 4th Amendment? What part of the 4th Amendment is violated?

[John Taylor]

I actually didnt say that RP has come out against it. I simply asked if you would still support it if RP was opposed to it.

Yes, of course, the constitution is written in simple english, and the legal precedents are there for everyone to read.

The millions of pro-redistributionists are at our very door-steps. If people won't wake up to the reality now, the moment will have passed when an agressive counter was still possible.

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

This whole immigration thing is funny to me. In 20 years we will be paying people to migrate here.

[John Taylor]

That's a red herring. You claimed that deporting millions of immigrants would be "gentle", and I responded with a picture of the government deporting one immigrant. If they fucked up that, how do you think they are going to handle that times several million? Also, why should Cubans and Mexicans be treated differently?

Sarcasm my friend.

I never said that immigrants should be treated differently based on their country of origin, but that is how our immigration policy has worked since 1966.

To be honest, I'm primarily concerned with removing people who, with their children, would otherwise be voting in 20 years to take away the "rich" people's property, and establish a New Mexican "people's state" here in the United States.

[John Taylor]

This whole immigration thing is funny to me. In 20 years we will be paying people to migrate here.

I think you're wrong. Care to put some money on this?

[EndDaFed]

Cubans are treated differently under federal law, they have automatic sanctuary if and when they touch American soil.

So you would condone this type of tyranny if people don't have their papers and are not granted political asylum?

[John Taylor]

So you would condone this type of tyranny if people don't have their papers and are not granted political asylum?

What? I never condoned any police raid whatsoever, even if it was done with a warrant.

My point is that your use of that picture is a non sequitor.

[Don't Tread on Mike]

I'm against it just because I see it as a way for the Gestapo to further their mission to become a police state. Also because it can also be used to advance a national I.D. card. ick!

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

I think you're wrong. Care to put some money on this?

20 bucks...

[JeNNiF00F00]

What part of the AZ bill violates the 4th Amendment? What part of the 4th Amendment is violated?

This has been explained to you about 50 times by multiple members of the forums. If you cannot understand how this is a tool to gain power over people, then there is no hope for you. You still have failed to answer my question about National ID so I will continue to ask it. Do you support National ID?

[JeNNiF00F00]

This whole immigration thing is funny to me. In 20 years we will be paying people to migrate here.

I agree. This country is going to collapse due to the weight of the state, and when it does, people will be like rats jumping off a sinking ship. Hell I already know people who are moving to other countries.

[ChooseLiberty]

I'm all for open immigration from certain latino countries with attractive women.

Venezuela, Columbia, Argentina, Brazil - ok.

Mexico, Central America - uh, no.

Immigration from countries with ugly women must be tightly controlled.

Have you seen those women at the commie controlled Mexican rallies?

And the Worker's Party women? Fugly.