Do you support Arizona's right to crack down on illegal immigration?

[Light]

See poll.

[torchbearer]

they have the right to do so under the constitution. i do not deny that.

[MelissaWV]

YES! There were not enough threads and polls about this!

[dannno]

What a slanted poll... most people here don't even have an option to vote for... not to mention torch is right, they do have the right to enact the law.. but citizens have the right to sue because it violates the 4th amendment... so..... ya.. meaningless poll.

[krazy kaju]

This is a false dilemma. You can also be against the sheer totalitarian-ness of this bill. Essentially, this bill dictates that everyone in Arizona has to walk around with their legal papers on them. Don't you dare forget them at home or you'll be thrown in jail!

[MelissaWV]

This is a false dilemma. You can also be against the sheer totalitarian-ness of this bill. Essentially, this bill dictates that everyone in Arizona has to walk around with their legal papers on them. Don't you dare forget them at home or you'll be thrown in jail!

Every reasonable effort will be made to ensure you're you, though! If there's a mix-up, you can obviously straighten it out from jail, and if you "just comply" there "won't be any trouble."

[ViniVidiVici]

Si hago

[dannno]

Essentially, this bill dictates that everyone in Arizona has to walk around with their legal papers on them. Don't you dare forget them at home or you'll be thrown in jail!

The worst part is, when we bring this up, the people defending the bill will reply that the law says immigrants have to carry papers and they will say that illegal aliens are already breaking the law.

It's like they completely miss the entire spirit of the 4th amendment.. which is that it is there to protect citizens.. and NBC's who are in fact NOT required to carry around an ID and SHOULD be secure in their persons and their homes.. but this bill does completely the opposite.

[MelissaWV]

Si hago

Su español no me impresiona.

[John Taylor]

The worst part is, when we bring this up, the people defending the bill will reply that the law says immigrants have to carry papers and they will say that illegal aliens are already breaking the law.

It's like they completely miss the entire spirit of the 4th amendment.. which is that it is there to protect citizens.. and NBC's who are in fact NOT required to carry around an ID and SHOULD be secure in their persons and their homes.. but this bill does completely the opposite.

The 4th Amendment DOES protect citizens! ALL migrants by law must carry their documentation. They are the one's breaking federal law.

[John Taylor]

Su español no me impresiona.

Mother of God.

Arabic.

[MelissaWV]

Mother of God.

Arabic.

El tuyo no me impresiona tampoco.

[phill4paul]

YES! There were not enough threads and polls about this!

No shit I can't even remember the ones I posted in and which I have not. :rolleyes:

[krazy kaju]

The 4th Amendment DOES protect citizens! ALL migrants by law must carry their documentation. They are the one's breaking federal law.

Right, but the Arizona law violates the Fourth Amendment by essentially requiring everyone, including legal citizens, to carry their papers. Because if they don't, then they risk getting sent to jail.

[John Taylor]

Right, but the Arizona law violates the Fourth Amendment by essentially requiring everyone, including legal citizens, to carry their papers. Because if they don't, then they risk getting sent to jail.

No, it only requires that people who are stopped under reasonable suspicion of committing a crime be able to demonstrate their legal status. The local thug on the street will be able to prove he's a citizen... so will the house-wife with a heavy foot on her way home from the grocery store.

[JeNNiF00F00]

No, it only requires that people who are stopped under reasonable suspicion of committing a crime be able to demonstrate their legal status. The local thug on the street will be able to prove he's a citizen... so will the house-wife with a heavy foot on her way home from the grocery store.

But that "crime" can be anything from passing a vehicle when theres a solid line, to your license plate light being out. You could be pulled, and because you think you are safe, would be thrown in jail because you don't carry the proper documentation.

[Paulitey]

How many more polls must there be on this same subject!

[lester1/2jr]

yes. I might not agree with their decision but it is indeed theirs

[John Taylor]

But that "crime" can be anything from passing a vehicle when theres a solid line, to your license plate light being out. You could be pulled, and because you think you are safe, would be thrown in jail because you don't carry the proper documentation.

Yeah, of course, those are violations of the Arizona Revised Statutes, the laws the police are empowered here to enforce.

All drivers are already required to have their driver's licenses with them when they drive. Everyone knows this, and has known it, since they turned 16 and got their license.

In any event, if someone is pulled over who doesn't have their license, they will be fined, and will be released when the police officer determines who the driver in fact is, and whether the car is stolen.

[krazy kaju]

No, it only requires that people who are stopped under reasonable suspicion of committing a crime be able to demonstrate their legal status. The local thug on the street will be able to prove he's a citizen... so will the house-wife with a heavy foot on her way home from the grocery store.

Being an illegal immigrant is committing a crime. Could "reasonable suspicion" (a sham in itself) be used to stop anyone suspected of being an illegal immigrant?

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Yeah, of course, those are violations of the Arizona Revised Statutes, the laws the police are empowered here to enforce.

All drivers are already required to have their driver's licenses with them when they drive. Everyone knows this, and has known it, since they turned 16 and got their license.

In any event, if someone is pulled over who doesn't have their license, they will be fined, and will be released when the police officer determines who the driver in fact is, and whether the car is stolen.

Driving has a specific context commercial or privileged in nature. Travel (by whatever means of the day) is a natural right inherent to being a human being just like self defense.

Personal travel using ones personal property does not require papers. If you are traveling using any means that utilizes fuel you pay use tax for public roads.

[bchavez]

LOL....

MASTER POLL HERE:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=241788

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

LOL....

MASTER POLL HERE:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=241788

Two different questions.

1) Do I support Arizona: No
2) Do I support the people of Arizona's right to self government: Yes

[speciallyblend]

Yeah, of course, those are violations of the Arizona Revised Statutes, the laws the police are empowered here to enforce.

All drivers are already required to have their driver's licenses with them when they drive. Everyone knows this, and has known it, since they turned 16 and got their license.

In any event, if someone is pulled over who doesn't have their license, they will be fined, and will be released when the police officer determines who the driver in fact is, and whether the car is stolen.

so your ok with american citizens getting stopped and showing their proper paperwork and still getting arrested??? because that has already happened to a us citizen in az!!

[John Taylor]

Driving has a specific context commercial or privileged in nature. Travel (by whatever means of the day) is a natural right inherent to being a human being just like self defense.

Personal travel using ones personal property does not require papers. If you are traveling using any means that utilizes fuel you pay use tax for public roads.

Ok, next time you pay a traffic ticket or are jailed for driving without a driver's license, come on back and tell us your story. States have general police powers, which they may excercise to require folks to possess a driver's license qualifying them to drive on the road system. If you want to walk along on private property like Bilbo Baggins, that's your affair.

[John Taylor]

so your ok with american citizens getting stopped and showing their proper paperwork and still getting arrested??? because that has already happened to a us citizen in az!!

No. I'm not ok with that.

I'm well aware of what happened to Pastor Anderson here in Tempe.

He was arrested for more than "showing their proper paperwork"...

His behavior would have aroused suspicon in even the most neutral police officer (not defending physically harming him in any way, just the reasoning for taking him out of his car at a lawfully executed roadblock and interdiction point).

[krazy kaju]

Let me reiterate what John Taylor conveniently ignored:
1. Being in the United States illegally is, well, illegal.
2. This law states that, in John's own words "people who are stopped under reasonable suspicion of committing a crime be able to demonstrate their legal status."
3. Therefore, the police will be able to stop anyone on the street under the "reasonable suspicion" that they are an illegal immigrant.

[John Taylor]

Let me reiterate what John Taylor conveniently ignored:
1. Being in the United States illegally is, well, illegal.
2. This law states that, in John's own words "people who are stopped under reasonable suspicion of committing a crime be able to demonstrate their legal status."
3. Therefore, the police will be able to stop anyone on the street under the "reasonable suspicion" that they are an illegal immigrant.

1) True, these millions of people are here illegally.

2) True, this is the federal law on the books for 50 years.

3) False, this is a non sequitor and has nothing to do with reality. A reasonable suspicion is not that one person out of 30 may be illegally in the country, and thus we need to stop everyone, it is when a police officer sees a car roll through a stop sign and pulls it over... he has reasonable suspicion that the law was broken, and he may now ask to see a driver's license and proof of legal residency.

[Danke]

Driving has a specific context commercial or privileged in nature. Travel (by whatever means of the day) is a natural right inherent to being a human being just like self defense.

Personal travel using ones personal property does not require papers. If you are traveling using any means that utilizes fuel you pay use tax for public roads.

See: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2666431&postcount=2

;)

[silus]

Your poll is fucking terrible.

[phill4paul]

There are many reasons that America is in the state that it is in with regards to jobs,wages, crimes and welfare.

The focus should be on federal government and what it has done to create these problems not an ethnic group nor immigrants legal or illegal.

Individuals or groups of individuals did not create the problems that the government would have us find scapegoats for.

International trade agreements, inflation of currency, prohibition laws without weight of Constitutional amendments and out of control vote pandering have created this problem.

Don't lose sight of the brass ring.

[speciallyblend]

No. I'm not ok with that.

I'm well aware of what happened to Pastor Anderson here in Tempe.

He was arrested for more than "showing their proper paperwork"...

His behavior would have aroused suspicon in even the most neutral police officer (not defending physically harming him in any way, just the reasoning for taking him out of his car at a lawfully executed roadblock and interdiction point).

i am not talking about pastor anderson,unless he is a commercial truck driver??

YouTube - 4409 -- Arrested over Arizona's Real I.D. Paper's Please SB1070 bill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knv6nDZX1mc)

[bchavez]

Your poll is fucking terrible.

Let's have a poll about who's poll is better.

Looks like mine is in the lead...

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=241788

haha ;) poll madness in General Politics...

[krazy kaju]

1) True, these millions of people are here illegally.

2) True, this is the federal law on the books for 50 years.

3) False, this is a non sequitor and has nothing to do with reality. A reasonable suspicion is not that one person out of 30 may be illegally in the country, and thus we need to stop everyone, it is when a police officer sees a car roll through a stop sign and pulls it over... he has reasonable suspicion that the law was broken, and he may now ask to see a driver's license and proof of legal residency.

You're using a straw man to claim a non sequitur. I'm not claiming that the police will now be able to stop every 30th person. I am claiming that the police will now be able to stop and demand papers from anyone who the police suspect to be an illegal immigrant - in this case it would be anyone who "looks" like an illegal immigrant or anyone who has characteristics that would be typical of an illegal immigrant (e.g. someone who doesn't speak fluent English and looks foreign). This law is ripe to be abused not only by racists but by any corrupt cop who doesn't like immigrants.

[catdd]

Shouldn't a drivers license be enough proof of legal residency as long as it isn't expired? I mean they can run a DMV search on all that right then.

[dannno]

3) False, this is a non sequitor and has nothing to do with reality. A reasonable suspicion is not that one person out of 30 may be illegally in the country, and thus we need to stop everyone, it is when a police officer sees a car roll through a stop sign and pulls it over... he has reasonable suspicion that the law was broken, and he may now ask to see a driver's license and proof of legal residency.

That isn't what the bill says, it doesn't say anything about being in a car or pulled over.

It says what me and Kaju are saying.. an officer can SAY that they have reasonable suspicion that person X is not a citizen and ask them for documentation.. if the person is a NBC, they might be lawfully not carrying any paperwork, in which case a citizen's 4th amendment rights will be violated and they can sue in the supreme court. Judge Napolitano agrees, Ron Paul agrees, anybody in their right mind agrees. You are being dense.

This is the 33rd time I've explained this concept to you (and I am not even joking for those reading this)

[dannno]

This law is ripe to be abused not only by racists but by any corrupt cop who doesn't like immigrants.

I believe it will be used against people of other races as well... I mean, it already has been, why wouldn't they do it more?

"Hey!! You look like an Irish immigrant! Show me your papers! No papers? Go to jail."

But of course we are dealing with somebody who doesn't understand the nature of the police state.

[MelissaWV]

Shouldn't a drivers license be enough proof of legal residency as long as it isn't expired? I mean they can run a DMV search on all that right then.

You are not required by law to have a driver's license, and children should not have them. Additionally, the new scam as far as stealing identity is to duplicate a license. You may "match" a known (and now repeat) illegal, which is cause to take you in. Arizona is number one in identity theft.

[Light]

lol, I see that liberaltarian is an apt term for a lot of people on this site. Heck, we have people throw around the r-word (racist) and h-word (homophobe) as much as their leftist counterparts.

[AuH20]

I believe it will be used against people of other races as well... I mean, it already has been, why wouldn't they do it more?

"Hey!! You look like an Irish immigrant! Show me your papers! No papers? Go to jail."

But of course we are dealing with somebody who doesn't understand the nature of the police state.

So explain to me how we can solve this complex problem? How do we protect the citizens of Arizona from the myriad of crimes being perpetrated against them? Do we enact a legal defense fund for ranchers who use lethal force to repel home invasions? How do we tackle kidnappings and other complex skirmishes that occur between the border?

[torchbearer]

lol, I see that liberaltarian is an apt term for a lot of people on this site. Heck, we have people throw around the r-word (racist) and h-word (homophobe) as much as their leftist counterparts.

xenophobia is the more correct term. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=241838

all governments use that fear to get people to give them more policing powers.
hitler used it to great effect. people are using that fear here for the sole purpose of increasing government power.

[AuH20]

xenophobia is the more correct term. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=241838

all governments use that fear to get people to give them more policing powers.
hitler used it to great effect. people are using that fear here for the sole purpose of increasing government power.

Fear? Torch, I respectfully disagree. The people are not ALLOWED to take care of the problem themselves. That's problem numero uno. In turn, they have to defer to corrupt Jonny Law to manage the situation.

[torchbearer]

Fear? Torch, I respectfully disagree. The people are not allowed to take care of the problem themselves. That's problem numero uno. In turn, they have to defer to corrupt Jonny Law to manage the situation.

what reasons do people give to support police state border patrolling?
fear of "mexican" crime
fear of them "taking our jobs"
and they are always portrayed as a group, seperate and apart. even used as scapegoats by some (not saying you)
fear of bringing diseases
fear of losing elections to dems
fear of spanish culture spreading
fear of the "loss of american culture"
fear of them being terrorist
etc.

[torchbearer]

One lady at the SRLC said she's tired of hearing "press 2 for spanish" and the government needs to do something about it. a republican rally for small government.

[AuH20]

what reasons do people give to support police state border patrolling?
fear of "mexican" crime
fear of them "taking our jobs"
and they are always portrayed as a group, seperate and apart. even used as scapegoats by some (not saying you)
fear of bring diseases
fear of losing elections to dems
fear of spanish culture spreading
fear of the "loss of american culture"

Mexico has been a corrupt Narco state for decades. They make our government look legit for Christ's sake. Now if you think the citizens of Arizona have no inalienable right to defend themselves, their loved ones and their property from the dregs of Mexico terrorizing the landscape, I'd be flabbergasted.

[phill4paul]

torchbearer is quite correct in this instance. Immigrants. Legal or illegal are not the problem.

International trade agreements, inflation of currency, prohibition laws without weight of Constitutional amendments and welfare for vote pandering have created this problem.

If anyone has a problem with the state of their affairs seek the source.

[Theocrat]

Sí, este instrumento legislativo de Arizona es muy constitucional. De conformidad con la Constitución de Estados Unidos, la enmienda X, y de conformidad con la Constitución del Estado de Arizona, el artículo 2, artículo 35, Arizona tiene el derecho legal a que promulguen leyes que consideren necesarias para hacer frente a sus problemas actuales de inmigración ilegal.

Yo pensaría que para aquellos de ustedes que lloran tanto por los derechos de los estados, y sin embargo tienen problemas con Arizona aprobar esta ley que sería al menos el honor de su derecho por ley a transmitir esto. Claro, tal vez la aplicación de la ley de inmigración se debe a algunos ajustes, pero el principio detrás de él sigue siendo sólida. Si desea ilegales haga de las suyas en nuestro país por no someterse a la regla de la ley, entonces nuestros Estados tienen el deber de velar por que hacen.

[AuH20]

torchbearer is quite correct in this instance. Immigrants. Legal or illegal are not the problem.

International trade agreements, inflation of currency, prohibition laws without weight of Constitutional amendments and welfare for vote pandering have created this problem.

If anyone has a problem with the state of their affairs seek the source.

Huge blocs of foreign nationals are the final nail in the coffin so to speak. Keeping them at bay simply buys time but does nothing to actually remedy the true ills. With that said, I'm 100% behind buying time, even if I'm of the mind that the globalists have won. They own the media, the educational system and the currency. I don't know if this country is solidified enough to fight back.

[MelissaWV]

One lady at the SRLC said she's tired of hearing "press 2 for spanish" and the government needs to do something about it. a republican rally for small government.

It takes one extra second of holding... it takes the phonetree longer to say "Please listen carefully as our options have changed."

I don't really like it, though, because if we did that in all the various areas for all the relevant languages... Jesus think about how long California's little "Press #" speech would be. We'd be out of numbers in a hurry.

[torchbearer]

Mexico has been a corrupt Narco state for decades. They make our government look legit for Christ's sake. Now if you think the citizens of Arizona have no inalienable right to defend themselves, their loved ones and their property from the dregs of Mexico terrorizing the landscape, I'd be flabbergasted.

so is that an admission that fear is being used in this debate to get people to support the growth of government?

[speciallyblend]

they should just start a Snitch an Illegal Program. then all they have to do is bust down doors and arrest folks instead of randomly stopping american citizens;) easy solution (sarcasm)

[torchbearer]

torchbearer is quite correct in this instance. Immigrants. Legal or illegal are not the problem.

International trade agreements, inflation of currency, prohibition laws without weight of Constitutional amendments and welfare for vote pandering have created this problem.

If anyone has a problem with the state of their affairs seek the source.

our problems are cause by this and this alone:
YouTube - How an Economy Grows and Why It Doesn't (by Irwin Schiff) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFxvy9XyUtg)
watch it all the way through as Irwin Schiff give lessons on who is really the cause behind our ills.

[AuH20]

so is that an admission that fear is being used in this debate to get people to support the growth of government?

It's not fear. It's reality. I think we should send you to the front lines in Arizona one of these days.

[dannno]

Fear? Torch, I respectfully disagree. The people are not ALLOWED to take care of the problem themselves. That's problem numero uno. In turn, they have to defer to corrupt Jonny Law to manage the situation.

Why the hell is that a smart idea?? You are giving the state more power. I really don't understand the logic here.

[torchbearer]

It's not fear. It's reality. I think we should send you to the front lines in Arizona some time.

well, fear can be a reality. someone points a loaded gun at you, you have right to feel fear. but fear is the weapon of tyrants, and i've made a short list of things they use to con people into supporting more government control. it has nothing to do with stopping "illegals" because it can't do that. just like you can't eliminate drugs by passing a law.

[dannno]

It's not fear. It's reality. I think we should send you to the front lines in Arizona one of these days.

Wow, you sound exactly like a neocon advocating destruction of our Constitution to protect us from terrorists.

[speciallyblend]

It's not fear. It's reality. I think we should send you to the front lines in Arizona one of these days.

with 70% 0f az citizens for this. why not just implement a snitch an illegal program modeled after the drug snitch program. then americans can snitch out the illegals!! they can save money by busting down doors and arresting folks, waste less time and less down time for the police!!

[peacepotpaul]

Not only do I support the State's right to crack down, I support every citizen (or illegal immigrant, for this matter) who wishes to cooperate with law enforcement to enforce just laws (but not unjust laws).

[AuH20]

Why the hell is that a smart idea?? You are giving the state more power. I really don't understand the logic here.

Heres a hypothetical scenario. I own a ranch on the border. Illegal aliens invade my home. I kill 2 in the struggle. I get sued or possibly charged with homicide or if I'm really lucky the prosecution hits me with a HATE CRIME as well. Are you going to contribute to my legal defense team? Self-defense is a myth in this goddamned country. The true victims are painted as assailants and ridiculed with false motives. You know the deal. Up is down and down is up.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Ok, next time you pay a traffic ticket or are jailed for driving without a driver's license, come on back and tell us your story. States have general police powers, which they may excercise to require folks to possess a driver's license qualifying them to drive on the road system. If you want to walk along on private property like Bilbo Baggins, that's your affair.

No problem. This was a pretty good thread.

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/78778

[speciallyblend]

Heres a hypothetical scenario. I own a ranch on the border. Illegal aliens invade my home. I kill 2 in the struggle. I get sued or possibly charged with homicide or if I'm really lucky the prosecution hits me with a HATE CRIME as well. Are you going to contribute to my legal defense team? Self-defense is a myth in this goddamned country. The true victims are painted as assailants and ridiculed with false motives. You know the deal. Up is down and down is up.

as i have heard rp members say, let the courts decide;) get a lawyer sarcasm

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

they should just start a Snitch an Illegal Program. then all they have to do is bust down doors and arrest folks instead of randomly stopping american citizens;) easy solution (sarcasm)

+1 ;)

[phill4paul]

Huge blocs of foreign nationals are the final nail in the coffin so to speak. Keeping them at bay simply buys time but does nothing to actually remedy the true ills. With that said, I'm 100% behind buying time, even if I'm of the mind that the globalists have won. They own the media, the educational system and the currency. I don't know if this country is solidified enough to fight back.

The source of the problem in NOT huge blocs of foreign nationals. America was created from huge blocs of foreign nationals.

Any problem that you point to that you believe is the effect of foreign nationals has its root in the federal governments policies.

Your anger is misdirected. If every foreign national was to be removed from America tomorrow the problems would still exist.

The problem is non-compliance of the Constitution on the part of the federal government and citizens being divided to the point that they allow it.

[torchbearer]

The source of the problem in NOT huge blocs of foreign nationals. America was created from huge blocs of foreign nationals.

Any problem that you point to that you believe is the effect of foreign nationals has its root in the federal governments policies.

Your anger is misdirected. If every foreign national was to be removed from America tomorrow the problems would still exist.

The problem is non-compliance of the Constitution on the part of the federal government and citizens being divided to the point that they allow it.

that is the ultimate lesson of the youtube i posted of the irwin schiff book.

[dannno]

Not only do I support the State's right to crack down, I support every citizen (or illegal immigrant, for this matter) who wishes to cooperate with law enforcement to enforce just laws (but not unjust laws).

If I saw you walking down the street and I asked for your ID, would you give it to me, or would you say fuck off?

What gives the police the right to ask for your ID unless you are suspected of committing a crime?

[silus]

7 pages and only about 23 votes. Can I say again how fucking terrible this poll is. I think I will.

Here is another option: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=241788

[dannno]

the problem is non-compliance of the constitution on the part of the federal government and citizens being divided to the point that they allow it.

+1776

[AuH20]

The source of the problem in NOT huge blocs of foreign nationals. America was created from huge blocs of foreign nationals.

Any problem that you point to that you believe is the effect of foreign nationals has its root in the federal governments policies.

Your anger is misdirected. If every foreign national was to be removed from America tomorrow the problems would still exist.

The problem is non-compliance of the Constitution on the part of the federal government and citizens being divided to the point that they allow it.

The country was formed from foreign INDIVIDUALS cut off from their homeland by a vast ocean. It was Assimilate or Go Home. Secondly, the immigration waves which took place between the late 1800s and the early 1900s was drastically smaller than the Southwestern invasion we've seen transpire. The numbers aren't even comparable.

http://www.numbersusa.com/overpopulation/decadegraph.html#40

[speciallyblend]

what they should do is run every AZ citizen thru a clearing house/detainment center and if legal set them free and if illegal deport them, might take a few months but they can process them all one by one and either detain them or let them go!! just grid of az and go trench to trench!! waterboard them all ,make sure they are telling the truth! it is not torture

[phill4paul]

The country was formed from foreign INDIVIDUALS cut off from their homeland by a vast ocean. It was Assimilate or Go Home. Secondly, the immigration waves which took place between the late 1800s and the early 1900s was drastically smaller than the Southwestern invasion we've seen transpire. The numbers aren't even comparable.

http://www.numbersusa.com/overpopulation/decadegraph.html#40

You have missed the point of my post.

Removing every foreign national WILL NOT solve your problems.

The federal government is the cause of your problems.

Again.

Trade agreements, inflation of currency, un-amended prohibitions and entitlement programs are your problem.

Illegal immigration is a distraction.

[Theocrat]

I'm only curious. What do you think Arizona should do about groups such as "La Raza Unida Party" (http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=geYF3GYvL_Y)?

[Vessol]

Arrest them if they break the law. Otherwise ignore them. I don't see what's hard with that.

This whole thing is an excuse to increase the police state.

Convenient how this is happening during the middle of National ID cards being debated.

[Meatwasp]

This is sad for me. It's against the constitution as others have said. I heard a Mexican guy say if he went back to Mexico he will be reduced to selling Chicklets again.
CUT THE WEFARE is the only way. Also do not let families come here like they did in the 1950 with the Brasaro program.

[Theocrat]

Arrest them if they break the law. Otherwise ignore them. I don't see what's hard with that.

This whole thing is an excuse to increase the police state.

Convenient how this is happening during the middle of National ID cards being debated.[Emphasis mine]

It seems to me you're agreeing that if illegal immigrants break Arizona's immigration laws, they should be arrested. It has nothing to do with increasing a police state.

[silus]

Bottom line is that we are going to go broke trying to remedy every symptom of fundamental problems.

[Vessol]

[Emphasis mine]

It seems to me you're agreeing that if illegal immigrants break Arizona's immigration laws, they should be arrested. It has nothing to do with increasing a police state.

And how are you going to get the manpower to arrest all those darn illegals?

[dannno]

Bottom line is that we are going to go broke trying to remedy every symptom of fundamental problems.

Yes, this is a fundamental problem that people are trying to cure the symptoms of rather than the disease.

[dannno]

[Emphasis mine]

It seems to me you're agreeing that if illegal immigrants break Arizona's immigration laws, they should be arrested. It has nothing to do with increasing a police state.

So do you think everybody should be sent to camps to determine if they are legal citizens or not?

Should police barge into homes demanding residents prove their legality?

Arrest random people on the street?

All of these things are what made our Founding Fathers cringe, and it is the basis of our Constitution. If you really support it, put a little more thought into this issue.

[Theocrat]

And how are you going to get the manpower to arrest all those darn illegals?

Easy. Hire new law enforcement officers. Teach them the Constitution. Stimulate our labor force. Racist extremist groups like "Raza Unida Party" (which support an overthrow of our American system) won't know what hit them.

[Theocrat]

So do you think everybody should be sent to camps to determine if they are legal citizens or not?

No.


Should police barge into homes demanding residents prove their legality?

No.


Arrest random people on the street?

No.


All of these things are what made our Founding Fathers cringe, and it is the basis of our Constitution. If you really support it, put a little more thought into this issue.

I have, and I'm looking at it from imminent needs which point to groups like "Raza Unida Party" who seek to use this immigration issue to harbor their own agenda of tearing down America to make it like a 21st Century Mexico.

[phill4paul]

So do you think everybody should be sent to camps to determine if they are legal citizens or not?

Should police barge into homes demanding residents prove their legality?

Arrest random people on the street?

All of these things are what made our Founding Fathers cringe, and it is the basis of our Constitution. If you really support it, put a little more thought into this issue.

No dannno Theocrat only believes that if they are gay. Immigrants are good Christians that don't know their place to him.

[Theocrat]

No dannno Theocrat only believes that if they are gay. Immigrants are good Christians that don't know their place to him.

The devil is a liar.

[peacepotpaul]

Easy. Hire new law enforcement officers. Teach them the Constitution. Stimulate our labor force. Racist extremist groups like "Raza Unida Party" (which support an overthrow of our American system) won't know what hit them.

you mean, spend more money on law enforcement and promote free public education on the Constitution?

[phill4paul]

The devil is a liar.

Sticks and stones could break my bones...but your beliefs could kill friends of mine....

[Theocrat]

you mean, spend more money on law enforcement and promote free public education on the Constitution?

Yes, we spend money on that. The government has a duty to enforce the laws which protect the lives, liberties, and properties of its citizens from those who would take those from them. However, the government should also empower property owners to deal with illegal immigration as best as they can, where law enforcement has no jurisdiction or expediency.

When I said teach "them" the Constitution, I was referring to the newly hired law enforcement officers, not the illegals. We need less "free" public education, not more.

[Theocrat]

Sticks and stones could break my bones...but your beliefs could kill friends of mine....

Is it that time of the month, Phil?

[peacepotpaul]

Yes, we spend money on that.



Thanks for being straight.



When I said teach "them" the Constitution, I was referring to the newly hired law enforcement officers, not the illegals. We need less "free" public education, not more.

So you don't believe citizens and immigrants should be taught loyalty to our country?

[ChooseLiberty]

Firing Squad for people that hire illegals. No last request, no cigarette. Burial in a mass grave with other violators.

Illegal immigration PROBLEM SOLVED.

You're welcome.

[Vessol]

Easy. Hire new law enforcement officers. Teach them the Constitution. Stimulate our labor force. Racist extremist groups like "Raza Unida Party" (which support an overthrow of our American system) won't know what hit them.

And create expand the police state in the process.

Why not just end welfare? That will solve the problem there. Instead of creating more buerocracy.

[phill4paul]

Is it that time of the month, Phil?

LOL? WTF? :rolleyes:

[Vessol]

LOL? WTF? :rolleyes:

Theocrat has shown consistently that he's only for Liberty when it adheres to his personal beliefs and faith.

[Theocrat]

So you don't believe citizens and immigrants should be taught loyalty to our country?

Of course, but I see education as a private matter, not a public one. Loyalty to one's country begins in the home and in the heart.

[Theocrat]

And create expand the police state in the process.

Why not just end welfare? That will solve the problem there. Instead of creating more buerocracy.

I agree that we should end welfare. However, we have an imminent threat of illegal immigration on the horizon, and that's why I think it would be better for the states (through law enforcement) and private owners to deal with immigration on their respective levels. It's going to be a very long time before we see an end to the welfare system, after all.

[silverhandorder]

FFS people pick your battles. You are taking over republican party. Play to your strengths advocate anti welfare state and oppose amnesty. Is it so hard not to sabotage your self?

[Don't Tread on Mike]

can an officer search your car for not having your papers on you?

[torchbearer]

can an officer search your car for not having your papers on you?

well, his logic will go, if you don't have your papers on you, you must be hiding them in your car, or house, or deposit box.. or where ever his donut filled head lingers.

[Vessol]

FFS people pick your battles. You are taking over republican party. Play to your strengths advocate anti welfare state and oppose amnesty. Is it so hard not to sabotage your self?

Even if it is a long time away it is better to work on it now.

Anything reeking of immigration bills is an excuse to increase the police state. That's the problem.

[peacepotpaul]

Even if it is a long time away it is better to work on it now.

Anything reeking of immigration bills is an excuse to increase the police state. That's the problem.

fear of slippery slope = pre-emptive strike

[Vessol]

Slippery Slope arguments can be valid sometimes.

People in 1913 would say you are making a slipperty slope arguement warning about the Federal Reserve.

Just like someone warning others back then of the Federal Reserve. I'll warn those who think it's not a danger. It will be. And it WILL extend and grant more power to the police state.

[peacepotpaul]

well, his logic will go, if you don't have your papers on you, you must be hiding them in your car, or house, or deposit box.. or where ever his donut filled head lingers.

I think his point is, if you don't have papers, you must be guilty or suspectible of other crimes than simply lack of identification.

if you admit "I don't have papers", there's no point in him looking for them. Since unlike drugs or illegal weapons, having them is your ticket OUT not IN to imprisonment.

[peacepotpaul]

Slippery Slope arguments can be valid sometimes.

People in 1913 would say you are making a slipperty slope arguement warning about the Federal Reserve.

Just like someone warning others back then of the Federal Reserve. I'll warn those who think it's not a danger. It will be. And it WILL extend and grant more power to the police state.

if it takes 90 years for the slippery slope to come true, is it really worth worrying about for your own lifetime?

[ARealConservative]

The Bill of Rights originally only restricted the the federal government.

In 1961 (Mapp v. Ohio) The Supreme Court ruled for the first time that the Fourth Amendment applied to states as well. (by way of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment)

So let's not pretend the founders intended on the Federal Government having the power to overrule the wishes of a state. that took hundreds of years to reconstruct.

[Danke]

I think his point is, if you don't have papers, you must be guilty or suspectible of other crimes than simply lack of identification.

if you admit "I don't have papers", there's no point in him looking for them. Since unlike drugs or illegal weapons, having them is your ticket OUT not IN to imprisonment.

Having "government papers" is usually the nexus that lands people IN prison.

Not answering questions, but asking and not accepting their presentments is what can keep you OUT.

[phill4paul]

if it takes 90 years for the slippery slope to come true, is it really worth worrying about for your own lifetime?

Only if you are selfish, have no children, or just don't give a fuck.