[VIDEOS] 4409 VS Southern Avenger?

[Reason]

Coming out on opposite sides of the issue for those who haven't seen here are the videos...

YouTube - 4409 -- Arrested over Arizona's Real I.D. Paper's Please SB1070 bill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knv6nDZX1mc)

YouTube - SA@TAC - Praising Arizona (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaJOIJ6qmtI)

[Reason]

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[TXcarlosTX]

4409 gots my vote.

[John Taylor]

S.A gets my vote.

Your poll doesn't do any justice to this issue whatsoever.

[MelissaWV]

Is another thread on this issue worth it? :(

[fj45lvr]

so this guy born in Fresno....who doesn't believe that he was born from an illegal alien on american soil??

This idea that illegals or even a person visiting the states with a visa can give birth to a child and it is then an american citizen is CRAZY.

[speciallyblend]

4409 gets my vote sorry southern avenger show me your papers

[speciallyblend]

S.A gets my vote.

Your poll doesn't do any justice to this issue whatsoever.

nor does stopping american citizens and arresting them even when they show their valid id. it has already happened in az!!

[purplechoe]

4409

[JeNNiF00F00]

4409 is muh boy

[John Taylor]

nor does stopping american citizens and arresting them even when they show their valid id. it has already happened in az!!

You're talking about crazy pastor anderson from here in Tempe at the border patrol stop down in Yuma?

[Todd]

Me thinks they wouldn't have hauled that truck driver off if he was caucasian. nor asked him to provide a birth certificate. I usually agree with the SA, but 4409 has the best argument here.

[speciallyblend]

You're talking about crazy pastor anderson from here in Tempe at the border patrol stop down in Yuma?

no

YouTube - 4409 -- Arrested over Arizona's Real I.D. Paper's Please SB1070 bill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knv6nDZX1mc)

[speciallyblend]

Me thinks they wouldn't have hauled that truck driver off if he was caucasian. nor asked him to provide a birth certificate. I usually agree with the SA, but 4409 has the best argument here.

yep i love SA,but 4409 clearly makes the point. any idea what the 4409 guy was arrested for at the end. i suspect a trumpet up charge of disorderly conduct!!!??

[angelatc]

False premise.

4409 was filmed before the law went into effect. Therefore, AZ law did not create the situation in 4409.

Now the police officers will have a clear guide of the identifications they must accept, which means they will be subjected to discipline if that happens again.

[speciallyblend]

False premise.

4409 was filmed before the law went into effect. Therefore, AZ law did not create the situation in 4409.

Now the police officers will have a clear guide of the identifications they must accept, which means they will be subjected to discipline if that happens again.

not true under az law ,they will be able to do exactly what they just did legally. it says clearly in news report that even though law hasn't passed . he showed id and was still arrested!! the guy showed valid id and commercial driving lisc and other paper work yet he was still arrested!! this gives them an open door now to do exactly what they did do to the guy before law change to every US citizen in AZ with no probable cause or crime committed!!

[angelatc]

not true under az law ,they will be able to do exactly what they just did legally. it says cleary in news report that even though law hasn't passed . he showed id and was still arrested!! the guy showed vailed id and cmmoercial driving lisc and other paper work yet he was still arrested!!

There is now a list of acceptable ID, and an Arizona driver's license is right on the top. Until the law takes effect, there was apparently no limit to the number of ID's the officers felt entitled to.

This happened in March, before the law was even passed, so you can't really make the argument that the law will create a situation that clearly already exists.

I can't make an argument that it will make it better, but I can speculate that it might be an improvement.

[speciallyblend]

There is now a list of acceptable ID, and an Arizona driver's license is right on the top. Until the law takes effect, there was apparently no limit to the number of ID's the officers felt entitled to.

This happened in March, before the law was even passed, so you can't really make the argument that the law will create a situation that clearly already exists.

I can't make an argument that it will make it better, but I can speculate that it might be an improvement.

well we hope so but what the 4409 guy was saying is now law!! did the 4409 guy get arrested for disorderly conduct?? does anyone know?? or did i miss that in video??

[jabf2006]

I'm not sure SA is providing support for the legislation. Definitely sounds like he has some reservations about it. His video is more of a commentary on how Obama & Co. shouldn't be upset at the Arizona for attempting to perform a job the Federal government is supposed to do, but doesn't.

So, I'm for both, SA and 4409.

[krazy kaju]

You're talking about crazy pastor anderson from here in Tempe at the border patrol stop down in Yuma?

Maybe you should watch the 4409 video before commenting.

[angelatc]

well we hope so but what the 4409 guy was saying is now law!! did the 4409 guy get arrested for disorderly conduct?? does anyone know?? or did i miss that in video??

There is nothing in the Arizona law that isn't already law. This only gives Arizona concurrent jurisdiction.

[speciallyblend]

There is nothing in the Arizona law that isn't already law. This only gives Arizona concurrent jurisdiction.

in other words legally giving law enforcement the ability to arrest folks even if they show valid id with no crime committed!!

[Reason]

I would like to see 4409 and SA comment on the opposing video.

[Reason]

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[BuddyRey]

Is another thread on this issue worth it? :(

+1000!!!

Can't you guys see that this is a *wedge issue* meant to divide and conquer the freedom movement? For Heaven sake, I can't believe how many of you are taking the bait.

[Reason]

+1000!!!

Can't you guys see that this is a *wedge issue* meant to divide and conquer the freedom movement? For Heaven sake, I can't believe how many of you are taking the bait.

meh, people should be able to handle debate and disagree and still work together on the bigger picture imo

[John Potter (UT)]

Either way you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Just so happens the guy arrested was a citizen and it was documented. I have a hard time seeing so many against this if this had been a real illegal and I defy you to claim the opposite with 100% honesty.

There are few perfect fixes since this is an overdue pimple that has finally burst.

While we can have our opinions on it, just exactly how well do we know the dynamics of the situation AZ is facing with the problem.

What gives us the moral authority to tell them how to handle their state?

If it were Utah, I would prefer the other solutions, like ending free education, welfare, and anchor baby parents, if they were unable to provide citizenship papers, sending them home with their kids, even though that country is facing a practical mutiny from the drug cartels.

Hope this was a worthwhile addition to the dialogue.

Other points later..

[Jeros]

+1000!!!

Can't you guys see that this is a *wedge issue* meant to divide and conquer the freedom movement? For Heaven sake, I can't believe how many of you are taking the bait.

Is ronpaulforums running out of threads?! Oh nooossss!

I also don't think showing your papers is a wedge issue. This may be one of the first times some of the Lewrockwell crowd came out on the opposite opinion of the majority of ronpaulforum members.

4409

[Jeros]

Either way you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Just so happens the guy arrested was a citizen and it was documented. I have a hard time seeing so many against this if this had been a real illegal and I defy you to claim the opposite with 100% honesty.

There are few perfect fixes since this is an overdue pimple that has finally burst.

While we can have our opinions on it, just exactly how well do we know the dynamics of the situation AZ is facing with the problem.

What gives us the moral authority to tell them how to handle their state?

If it were Utah, I would prefer the other solutions, like ending free education, welfare, and anchor baby parents, if they were unable to provide citizenship papers, sending them home with their kids, even though that country is facing a practical mutiny from the drug cartels.

Hope this was a worthwhile addition to the dialogue.

Other points later..

Arizona is not a collectively owned piece of land. No voluntary association exists to make it as much. The people who claim to own the land mass known as Arizona are authoritarians. They control through force. The only person/people who can morally deny entry to any piece of land are the rightful owners. Nobody is telling Arizona to do anything. The few who claim ownership of all of Arizona are doing the telling.