[ San Diego ] family call police for help, police kill man

[squarepusher]

wow another story like this hitting in my home today

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/apr/26/officer-involved-shooting-near-morley-field/

Police shoot, kill man, 56, with kitchen knife

http://media.signonsandiego.com/img/photos/2010/04/26/ois-north-park_t352.jpg?980751187beea6fc26a3a9e93795d379f58a f1c4

By Union-Tribune

Originally published April 26, 2010 at 12:11 p.m., updated April 26, 2010 at 1:18 p.m.
A woman in North Park weeps while being interviewed by a San Diego Police officer on the 3400 block of Alabama Street in the Morley Field area after an officer involved shooting on the street, before noon on Monday April 26, 2010.

Howard Lipin / Union-Tribune

A woman in North Park weeps while being interviewed by a San Diego Police officer on the 3400 block of Alabama Street in the Morley Field area after an officer involved shooting on the street, before noon on Monday April 26, 2010.

NORTH PARK — A San Diego police officer fatally shot a 56-year-old man inside his North Park home Monday morning after the man refused to drop a kitchen knife, told officers they were going to have to kill him and then advanced on the officers, authorities said.

Police had been called to the home on Alabama Street near Morley Field at 10:42 a.m. to evaluate the mental health of the man, said San Diego police Lt. Kevin Rooney.

Rooney said when two officers arrived shortly before 11 a.m. the man and family members were outside but the man quickly went back into the house through a side door.

Officers became concerned that he was either going to do something inside the home or prevent them from getting inside, so they entered the front door, Rooney said.

The officers saw the man inside the kitchen and ordered him to come out to the living room and show his hands. The man came out and officers saw he was carrying a knife.

“They again commanded him to put the knife down and the man made a comment to them to the effect that they were going to have to kill him,” Rooney said.

Rooney said the man advanced on the officers with the knife in his hands and one officer fired his gun.

The man was taken to a nearby hospital, where he died around 11:35 a.m. His name was not immediately released.

Rooney would not say how many shots were fired. He said he did not know the nature of the mental health call or whether the man had been threatening anyone.

The man lived in the home with his mother, Rooney said.

Police blocked off several blocks of Alabama as they investigated the shooting. Officers planned to interview family members and other people who live on the block and were trying to determine if they needed a search warrant.

[damiengwa]

moral of the story is to NEVER call the police for anything. EVER!

[squarepusher]

Police kill someone, what happens?

They get time off for a free paid vacation for a few months, while their colleagues do an investigation create a story how they did not violate any policies.

Wow, and you wonder why we see stories like these so often!

Waiting to hear John_Tailors response how the police lives were at risk and they had no other option but to kill this guy and what they did was justified.

[Bruno]

I remember a shooting of a 16-year-old in Phoenix who was pumped full of 28 shots by 6 police officers before he hit the ground. He had "lunged" at them also with a knife, more than 10 feet away from them. He had ran away from home distraught because he felt his father didn't love him, and his mother was worried he would hurt himself.

[2young2vote]

I didn't know police were experts at evaluating mental health.

[sevin]

“They again commanded him to put the knife down and the man made a comment to them to the effect that they were going to have to kill him,” Rooney said.

Rooney said the man advanced on the officers with the knife in his hands and one officer fired his gun.

What did the officer do wrong?

[Nate SY]

As long as the man wasn't far away from the officer, I'd say it looks like the officer did the right thing.

Little known fact, knives are more dangerous for officers than most pistols. A Second Chance Vest will stop a 9mm but knives slice right through them.

[squarepusher]

A senior citizen with a kitchen knife, vs a trained officer with combat skills.

Only option was to kill the man?

Police are supposed to be trained for conflict resolution, but it seems that means killing more and more.

[Nate SY]

A senior citizen with a kitchen knife, vs a trained officer with combat skills.

Only option was to kill the man?

Police are supposed to be trained for conflict resolution, but it seems that means killing more and more.

56 isn't really Old Man in my book, that's about my dads age and he's still pretty spry, I can honestly say if he came at me with a knife he'd still be a threat.

Again, it's dependent on the distance. If he's across the room, fine the officer did the wrong thing, if he's within 5 feet I would have shot him too!

I try and solve conflicts all the time, but if someone comes at me with a knife he just escalated the conflict to a whole 'nother level. And I'll resolve it in the way that guarantee's I'm still whole for my family and friends.

[noxagol]

This is what Tazers were meant for.

[Anti Federalist]

Fair warning.

These stories are becoming more and more common. Call cops into a volatile situation and somebody is liable to end up dead. They are not there to resolve conflicts, they are not there to "make peace", they are not there to smooth things over.

We are "hostiles". They come into the situation at a default setting of combat.

They will show up and make as many arrests as needed to make the situation end, regardless of circumstances.

If there is any question about that you will be tazed, beaten, charged with felony resistance and taken to jail.

If there is any question beyond that, you will be shot dead.

Call cops at your own peril.

[Mahkato]

This is what Tazers were meant for.

Tazers get overused because they don't have to think whether it's REALLY a good idea to shoot, as they do before they shoot a firearm.

[BlackTerrel]

moral of the story is to NEVER call the police for anything. EVER!

Or don't come at police with a knife.

This is the problem. There are many of cases of police abuse but stories like this just seem like "the boy who cried wolf".


A senior citizen with a kitchen knife, vs a trained officer with combat skills.

Only option was to kill the man?

Police are supposed to be trained for conflict resolution, but it seems that means killing more and more.

I feel like I'm a pretty good fighter but a dude coming at with you a knife is a scary situation (and 56 years old is not a senior citizen). Especially someone who is clearly not sane. Why should a police officer risk his life for that of someone who is coming at him with a knife? Does the police officer not have a wife and kid and people who care for him?

Point out real police abuses - like the one in Maryland.

[squarepusher]

the main problem is, dead people leave no testimony. Did the situation really go as the officers said? Or did the officers make a mistake or violate policy, and they simply "agree" with the "coming right at me" story.

dead people leave no testimony, and forensics are likely to not implicate their coworkers. Its the same deal with the feds printing money, no one to regulate them as they are seen as the ultimate power, which leads to a sh*tstorm of problems

[BlackTerrel]

the main problem is, dead people leave no testimony. Did the situation really go as the officers said? Or did the officers make a mistake or violate policy, and they simply "agree" with the "coming right at me" story.

I agree.

Let's not forget in the Maryland case they charged the student with assaulting them until the video surfaced.

That said we don't have evidence other than what is posted here. In my mind dude comes at you with a knife you are justified in taking him out.

[Zippyjuan]

"Put down the knife sir."
"You are going to have to kill me first!"
How would you have chosen to handle that situation? You are called to a house with a report of a possibly mentally unstable person and you see him with a weapon. Do you think he might hurt himself or somebody else and try to disarm him or otherwise get him to put it down? From the piece, there was every indication he was not going to give up his weapon. What do you do from that point? Go for coffee and doughnuts? Call for and wait for some mental health authorities to get there- not knowing what he may do with the knife in the meantime?

Perhaps they should have offered the man with a knife some tea to relax him? Play some sooting music over their bullhorns? Offer him a flower in trade for the knife?

If the cops made a bad choice, what choice would you have made? You of course have had time to think about it rather than reacting on the spot so keep that in mind. First goal is generally to disarm the person. Then you can try to deal with the situation. He said he would not give up the knife unless they killed them and came towards them. Trying to take a knife away from somebody is a very dangerous thing. You want to minimize risk to yourself and others.



Rooney said when two officers arrived shortly before 11 a.m. the man and family members were outside but the man quickly went back into the house through a side door.

Officers became concerned that he was either going to do something inside the home or prevent them from getting inside, so they entered the front door, Rooney said.

The officers saw the man inside the kitchen and ordered him to come out to the living room and show his hands. The man came out and officers saw he was carrying a knife.

“They again commanded him to put the knife down and the man made a comment to them to the effect that they were going to have to kill him,” Rooney said.

Rooney said the man advanced on the officers with the knife in his hands and one officer fired his gun.

[romeno182]

"Put down the knife sir."
"You are going to have to kill me first!"
How would you have chosen to handle that situation? You are called to a house with a report of a possibly mentally unstable person and you see him with a weapon. Do you think he might hurt himself or somebody else and try to disarm him or otherwise get him to put it down? From the piece, there was every indication he was not going to give up his weapon. What do you do from that point? Go for coffee and doughnuts? Call for and wait for some mental health authorities to get there- not knowing what he may do with the knife in the meantime?

Perhaps they should have offered the man with a knife some tea to relax him? Play some sooting music over their bullhorns? Offer him a flower in trade for the knife?

If the cops made a bad choice, what choice would you have made? You of course have had time to think about it rather than reacting on the spot so keep that in mind. First goal is generally to disarm the person. Then you can try to deal with the situation. He said he would not give up the knife unless they killed them and came towards them. Trying to take a knife away from somebody is a very dangerous thing. You want to minimize risk to yourself and others.

they killed him you psycho-fascist, i f** tought killing is the last option, now it has become the first

[noxagol]

Tazers get overused because they don't have to think whether it's REALLY a good idea to shoot, as they do before they shoot a firearm.

Well yeah they are over used. Tazers were meant exactly for this situation, self defense that isn't necessarily needing to shoot them, exactly a situation like this. There was no need to shoot the guy if you have a tazer. Have your tazer out, if he runs at you, taze him. Police should only be using their firearm in response to a firearm. Everything else can be handled with a tazer.

However, tazers now fall from the category of self-defence into pain compliance, which I guess brings their firearm into all self defense.

[MelissaWV]

What did the officer do wrong?



Officers became concerned that he was either going to do something inside the home or prevent them from getting inside, so they entered the front door, Rooney said.

He didn't have the right to prevent the police from going inside? Were there other people inside he might threaten, or is this another case of killing the guy for his own protection?

[Zippyjuan]

they killed him you psycho-fascist, i f** tought killing is the last option, now it has become the first

Was he shot with intent to kill? Where was he hit? The article does not say. Perhaps he was shot in the leg with the intent to slow his advance towards the officers or in the arm with the knife in an effort to disarm him and the bullet hit an artery and he bled to death? We do not know. He did not die at the scene but was treated and taken to a hospital where he later died. How would you respond to the situation (beyond calling names which is not conductive to any discussion)? Are officers not allowed to protect themselves when somebody comes at them with a knife?

[MelissaWV]

Was he shot with intent to kill? Where was he hit? The article does not say. Perhaps he was shot in the leg with the intent to slow his advance towards the officers or in the arm with the knife in an effort to disarm him and the bullet hit an artery and he bled to death? We do not know. He did not die at the scene but was treated and taken to a hospital where he later died. How would you respond to the situation (beyond calling names which is not conductive to any discussion)? Are officers not allowed to protect themselves when somebody comes at them with a knife?

Zippy, but this is another situation where he was barricaded (or POTENTIALLY barricaded, it says, or THINKING about barricading) on his own property, and it seems like other people were out of harm's way.

If our society weren't so sue-happy, the police could negotiate and try to talk the guy down, but instead they had to save the guy from himself... by shooting him :(

[John Taylor]

Zippy, but this is another situation where he was barricaded (or POTENTIALLY barricaded, it says, or THINKING about barricading) on his own property, and it seems like other people were out of harm's way.

If our society weren't so sue-happy, the police could negotiate and try to talk the guy down, but instead they had to save the guy from himself... by shooting him :(

This coming from the crazy broad who is all up in arms to prevent the borders from being secured and those breaking the law from meeting the consequences of their voluntary actions. IRONY.

[Zippyjuan]

Zippy, but this is another situation where he was barricaded (or POTENTIALLY barricaded, it says, or THINKING about barricading) on his own property, and it seems like other people were out of harm's way.

If our society weren't so sue-happy, the police could negotiate and try to talk the guy down, but instead they had to save the guy from himself... by shooting him :(
I don't see where it says he was barricaded. They asked him to come out into the room they were in and he complied. The situation changed when he picked up the knife. You cannot deal with the situation until the weapon is taken care of. He was not just sitting there with the knife. He was coming towards the officers and saying that he would only give up the knife if they killed him. Do you honestly think they could have talked him out of it? Once again, people continue to say the police reacted wrong but do not say how they would have acted in the same situation.

[Danke]

This coming from the crazy broad...

http://jakerake.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/retard.jpg

[specsaregood]

I don't see where it says he was barricaded. They asked him to come out into the room they were in and he complied. The situation changed when he picked up the knife. You cannot deal with the situation until the weapon is taken care of. He was not just sitting there with the knife. He was coming towards the officers and saying that he would only give up the knife if they killed him. Do you honestly think they could have talked him out of it? Once again, people continue to say the police reacted wrong but do not say how they would have acted in the same situation.

Nobody knows except those that were in the room. But it hardly seems unreasonable to me that they could have retreated or kept their distance after he said "you'll have to kill me" and either waited for somebody trained/capable of dealing with somebody with mental problems or to retrieve nonlethal weapons. Tazer, mace, beanbag rounds.

[MelissaWV]

I don't see where it says he was barricaded. They asked him to come out into the room they were in and he complied. The situation changed when he picked up the knife. You cannot deal with the situation until the weapon is taken care of. He was not just sitting there with the knife. He was coming towards the officers and saying that he would only give up the knife if they killed him. Do you honestly think they could have talked him out of it? Once again, people continue to say the police reacted wrong but do not say how they would have acted in the same situation.


Rooney said when two officers arrived shortly before 11 a.m. the man and family members were outside but the man quickly went back into the house through a side door.

Officers became concerned that he was either going to do something inside the home or prevent them from getting inside, so they entered the front door, Rooney said.

I did say what the appropriate reaction would be, but if they waited around and he killed himself then there would have been liability issues. The police would have "let him die" and so on.

[Krugerrand]

I did say what the appropriate reaction would be, but if they waited around and he killed himself then there would have been liability issues. The police would have "let him die" and so on.

As usual Melissa ... you bring enlightening perspective.

Once the police are in the house and a man lunges with a knife ... you have to let them protect themselves.

Did the police belong in the house? Probably not.

Police blocked off several blocks of Alabama as they investigated the shooting. Officers planned to interview family members and other people who live on the block and were trying to determine if they needed a search warrant.
After you shoot somebody is a bad time to figure that out.

However, as you point out, if they do not go in and the man kills/injures himself, the police face liability issues there as well.

[VegasPatriot]

It looks like there has been an update to the story.


SAN DIEGO — A 55-year-old man who family members said suffered from paranoid schizophrenia grabbed a knife, got into a confrontation with police in his mother’s North Park home and was fatally shot Monday.

He told officers they would have to kill him.

Donald Sarten, 83, said his son, Bradford Sarten, was diagnosed with mental illness in the early 1980s and had been committed numerous times.

He said his daughter, Cynthia Abel, who lives in Moraga in the San Francisco Bay Area, came to San Diego over the weekend at her mother’s request to try to get Bradford Sarten recommitted after his mental state deteriorated.

Donald Sarten, who lives in Sebastopol, said his son would hear voices in his head and would react angrily by throwing things.

San Diego police Lt. Kevin Rooney said officers were called to the home by family members shortly before 11 a.m. to evaluate the man’s mental health. Bradford Sarten was outside the home on Alabama Street near Morley Field when police arrived but quickly went in a side door.
Officers became concerned that he was going to do something inside the home or prevent them from getting inside, so they entered the front door, Rooney said.

The officers saw the man inside the kitchen and ordered him to come out to the living room and show his hands. The man came out and officers saw he was carrying a knife.

“They again commanded him to put the knife down, and the man made a comment to them to the effect that they were going to have to kill him,” Rooney said.

Rooney said the man advanced toward the officers with the knife and one officer fired his gun. Bradford Sarten died at a hospital about 11:35 a.m.

Donald Sarten said his son has never worked, was not married and had no children. He said he lived with his mother in the house on Alabama Street. He said he believed Bradford had been committed five or six times in the past two to three years.

Rooney would not say how many shots were fired. He said he did not know specifics about the mental health call police received or whether the man had been threatening anyone.

San Diego Police spokesman Gary Hassen said some officers carry less-lethal weapons in their patrol cars, such as shotguns that fire beanbag and Tasers, but he didn’t know whether the two officers that responded to the North Park house Monday had them.

Donald Sarten and Bradford’s mother divorced, and he left in 1986 and remarried.

“There was nothing I could do for him,” he said. “There was nothing anyone could do for him. It’s been a vicious, never-ending cycle. I’m just glad he didn’t hurt anybody.”

[Krugerrand]

It looks like there has been an update to the story.

There was another story about a suicidal guy who basically forced a situation that ended up with him dead. That's not fair to the policeman to make him pull the trigger for you.

[MtMichael1776]

This is what Tazers were meant for.

Tazers were meant to be used on unarmed citizens, to break up lawful protests, and every now and then to kill the elderly or handicapped. At least that seems to be the trend.

[Zippyjuan]

You don't want to tazer an armed person. If they have a gun, it may cause them to fire it. If they have a knife, you don't want to get close enough to apply the tazer.

[Anti Federalist]

If they have a knife, you don't want to get close enough to apply the tazer.

Huh?

Police issue Tasers have an effective range of 35 feet.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

This coming from the crazy broad who is all up in arms to prevent the borders from being secured and those breaking the law from meeting the consequences of their voluntary actions. IRONY.

Since you live in AZ let me know how it works out for you if an illegal alien tips off police providing your address claiming the people who live there are hiring or harboring illegal aliens.

AZ is not securing borders. AZ has no intention of raising a militia to secure it's borders. AZ is now a papers please state. SCOTUS ruled there is no compulsion to respond and failure to respond is not cause to arrest.

AZ is not even proposing to solve the economic or re-entry problems. AZ has not proposed to nullify federal birthright citizenship, welfare, public education, any other public benefits or actually secure it's border. No instead the forum is being polluted with neocons who want to expand the police powers of an already over powered police state.

http://i41.tinypic.com/24go9pd.png