Are you for illegal amnesty or not?

[Light]

See poll.

[Stary Hickory]

No and hell no. Immigrate here legally.

I would be for open borders if there was no police state which was organized by mob rule, which is subject to the whims and manipulations of the demogauges.

[pahs1994]

No amnesty until govt welfare goes away

[bchavez]

Don't forget this poll too:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=241788

[Danke]

How do you determine who is illegal? No government papers?


Do we start kicking out "Native Americans" and those without Birth Certificates?

Does an entry of my birth here in my family bible count as ID?

[Lord Xar]

How do you determine who is illegal? No government papers?


Do we start kicking out "Native Americans" and those without Birth Certificates?

Does an entry of my birth here in my family bible count as ID?

Do you have a social security number? A drivers license, a valid photo ID? These are all easily obtained "IF" you are legal.

I am tired of these "nazi" arguments of "DO YOU HAVE YOUR PAPERS!!!!!".

You are stoking fear, and using baseless and dishonest arguments to further your own agenda.

[Danke]

Do you have a social security number? A drivers license, a valid photo ID? These are all easily obtained "IF" you are legal.

I am tired of these "nazi" arguments of "DO YOU HAVE YOUR PAPERS!!!!!".

You are stoking fear, and using baseless and dishonest arguments to further your own agenda.

What documents do I need to get a SSN? A driver's License? A "valid" photo ID?

Just apply? Just my signature?

Which begs the question, why should I have to get any of those forms of approval from this government?

[Lord Xar]

What documents do I need to get a SSN? A driver's License? A "valid" photo ID?

Just apply? Just my signature?

Which begs the question, why should I have to get any of those forms of approval from this government?

You are fighting a bigger battle then. This is why I think extreme libertarians, are very harmful to this country. You, not you specifically - just many libertarians, sound almost anarchic. I find many libertarians are their own worst enemies because in one respect they advocate so much individual freedom, which is good, but they don't temper that with what is actually happening in current day.

You rally behind open borders, "there is no illegals", YET I barely ever, if at all, hear any of you rallying for NO WELFARE, NO GOVERNMENT AID. I never see threads started regarding it, but boy o' boy, you guys love you some open borders.. and jump right in and create threads and preach about the horrors of "showing your papers" etc... So, your advocation actually increases big government, welfare etc. and in my eyes, a globalistic government.

To answer your questions:
If you are born here, you get a SSN.
If you are authorized to work/school here, you get a temp visa, which can get you a legal/photo ID.

[ViniVidiVici]

Absolutely not.

[AuH20]

You are fighting a bigger battle then. This is why I think extreme libertarians, are very harmful to this country. You, not you specifically - just many libertarians, sound almost anarchic. I find many libertarians are their own worst enemies because in one respect they advocate so much individual freedom, which is good, but they don't temper that with what is actually happening in current day.

You rally behind open borders, "there is no illegals", YET I barely ever, if at all, hear any of you rallying for NO WELFARE, NO GOVERNMENT AID. I never see threads started regarding it, but boy o' boy, you guys love you some open borders.. and jump right in and create threads and preach about the horrors of "showing your papers" etc... So, your advocation actually increases big government, welfare etc. and in my eyes, a globalistic government.

To answer your questions:
If you are born here, you get a SSN.
If you are authorized to work/school here, you get a temp visa, which can get you a legal/photo ID.


The global elites love the pure libertarian approach. They can literally shift demographics and voting trends to their liking. Break downing national sovereignty and the concept of personal liberties was never so easy!!! Bring in destitute, desperate peoples from a nation long beset with corruption and crime & pit them against the native population, until they become the dominant population and culture. Of course, along the way, these so-called NEW Americans will swallow every statist solution since they originally emigrated from a hellhole to begin with.

[John Taylor]

You are fighting a bigger battle then. This is why I think extreme libertarians, are very harmful to this country. You, not you specifically - just many libertarians, sound almost anarchic. I find many libertarians are their own worst enemies because in one respect they advocate so much individual freedom, which is good, but they don't temper that with what is actually happening in current day.

You rally behind open borders, "there is no illegals", YET I barely ever, if at all, hear any of you rallying for NO WELFARE, NO GOVERNMENT AID. I never see threads started regarding it, but boy o' boy, you guys love you some open borders.. and jump right in and create threads and preach about the horrors of "showing your papers" etc... So, your advocation actually increases big government, welfare etc. and in my eyes, a globalistic government.

To answer your questions:
If you are born here, you get a SSN.
If you are authorized to work/school here, you get a temp visa, which can get you a legal/photo ID.

+1776.

If we do not control and limit immigration to those least likely to seek to redistribute and further overthrow our system of private property rights, we'll soon have a hundred million new voters, voting to use the federal government to take from the productive to reward the lazy and unproductive.

[John E]

Unfortunately, the immigration system is a mess and it can take a decade or more to bring some cases to a close. During that time, these people are getting married and having children. Or they bring their children with them and they grow up with America as the only home they know. These people aren't always here illegally either.

I think we need to fix a few things to reduce the # of people coming here, reduce the time that the people who are here are stuck in the courts, and then we can resolve the remaining cases in an easier way.

[John Taylor]

Unfortunately, the immigration system is a mess and it can take a decade or more to bring some cases to a close. During that time, these people are getting married and having children. Or they bring their children with them and they grow up with America as the only home they know. These people aren't always here illegally either.

I think we need to fix a few things to reduce the # of people coming here, reduce the time that the people who are here are stuck in the courts, and then we can resolve the remaining cases in an easier way.

Start by securing the border with troops and a fence. Then, deport every single illegal who is apprehended. I think in ten years or so we'll have most of them out. There's no point to bailing water out of one end of the pool and dumping it in the other... and that's precisely what is occuring now with the complete lack of security on our border.

[Danke]

You rally behind open borders, "there is no illegals", YET I barely ever, if at all, hear any of you rallying for NO WELFARE, NO GOVERNMENT AID. I never see threads started regarding it, but boy o' boy, you guys love you some open borders.. and jump right in and create threads and preach about the horrors of "showing your papers" etc... So, your advocation actually increases big government, welfare etc. and in my eyes, a globalistic government.

To answer your questions:
If you are born here, you get a SSN.
If you are authorized to work/school here, you get a temp visa, which can get you a legal/photo ID.

You don't answer the questions you are responding to, then just make shit up.

Under the current system, I'm not so much against boarder control. Will be hard, especially on our long border with Canada.

You think a person born here should get a SSN (application for a Federal government entitlement program) and/or authorization to work. And I'm for big government. You're funny.

[The Patriot]

Socialism and open borders do not mix. Working towards abolishing the State and it's welfare is a goal of mine, ideally. But until then, Libertarians need to take proper sides and form pragmatic political solutions conducive to liberty. Opening the borders while we have a governing apparatus and a large welfare state is not conducive to economic and personal liberty(which are one in the same). Nearly everyone of those voters is a statist, and wants to expand the scope and power of the State in every aspect of our lives through economic redistribution and centralization. I support the American Nation, and I don't want to see the State dilute it by importing in masse the dregs of the third world. We need to work towards abolishing the welfare state and ending birthright citizenship. However, those are goals that will take years to fully implement. So until then, we can let every single person with a pulse into America.

Murray Rothbard did a good article on National Self Determination.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard134.html

[JeNNiF00F00]

fas·cism
   /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ Show Spelled[fash-iz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
2.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
3.
( initial capital letter ) a fascist movement, esp. the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922–43.
Use fascism in a Sentence
See images of fascism
Search fascism on the Web
Origin:
1915–20; < It fascismo, equiv. to fasc ( io ) bundle, political group ( see fasces) + -ismo -ism

—Related forms
an·ti·fas·cism, noun
pro·fas·cism, noun

*******

Socialism and open boarders do not mix. You are correct. However by closing the boarders and becoming staunch "nationalists", that would make us "National Socialists". Remember who ran the National Socialist Party?

[John Taylor]

fas·cism
   /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ Show Spelled[fash-iz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
2.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
3.
( initial capital letter ) a fascist movement, esp. the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922–43.
Use fascism in a Sentence
See images of fascism
Search fascism on the Web
Origin:
1915–20; < It fascismo, equiv. to fasc ( io ) bundle, political group ( see fasces) + -ismo -ism

—Related forms
an·ti·fas·cism, noun
pro·fas·cism, noun

*******

Socialism and open boarders do not mix. You are correct. However by closing the boarders and becoming staunch "nationalists", that would make us "National Socialists". Remember who ran the National Socialist Party?


Hahahaha!!!

[dean.engelhardt]

I didn't vote. To fix the immigration problem there must be a choice in the middle. If we have to choose one of the extremes we will always have the problem.

[Stary Hickory]

Do you have a social security number? A drivers license, a valid photo ID? These are all easily obtained "IF" you are legal.

I am tired of these "nazi" arguments of "DO YOU HAVE YOUR PAPERS!!!!!".

You are stoking fear, and using baseless and dishonest arguments to further your own agenda.

+1776

Come here with rational arguments not slogans or meaningless catch phrases in an attempt to make ridiculous comparisons.

[aravoth]

this question is loaded, and the only reason immigration is a big deal now is because the economy is in the shitter.

I understand wanting to kick out the cartel group that shoot up small border towns. But instituting a police state and forcing people to display their "papers" just because of the way the look is complete and total horseshit, and it is exactly what the Nazi's did.

[ChaosControl]

I support getting rid of the welfare state and making legal immigration easier though. Then the illegals can go through the easier process in the future if they want.

I don't support just granting them outright citizenship though.

[The Patriot]

fas·cism
   /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ Show Spelled[fash-iz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
2.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
3.
( initial capital letter ) a fascist movement, esp. the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922–43.
Use fascism in a Sentence
See images of fascism
Search fascism on the Web
Origin:
1915–20; < It fascismo, equiv. to fasc ( io ) bundle, political group ( see fasces) + -ismo -ism

—Related forms
an·ti·fas·cism, noun
pro·fas·cism, noun

*******

Socialism and open boarders do not mix. You are correct. However by closing the boarders and becoming staunch "nationalists", that would make us "National Socialists". Remember who ran the National Socialist Party?
Ok, if you want to play that game, than you are an international socialist. You do remember who the International Socialists were right?

Is that all your argument comes down to, calling me a Nazi? Because I don't support mass immigration and porous borders while we have a welfare state and an overreaching electoral apparatus that will only get larger as these people become voters? Sorry, I love liberty to much, and I don't define liberty as being able to vote to steal another person's money and getting a free lunch.

[Sarge]

Picked this up over at the Ticker Forum. It speaks for itself.

http://www.dontspeakforme.org/principles.html

[Stary Hickory]

this question is loaded, and the only reason immigration is a big deal now is because the economy is in the shitter.

I understand wanting to kick out the cartel group that shoot up small border towns. But instituting a police state and forcing people to display their "papers" just because of the way the look is complete and total horseshit, and it is exactly what the Nazi's did.

I wonder if you are even making an attempt to portray reality here? First I have seen no indication that they are able to stop you based on how you look. For starters no one in their right mind would propose such a bill, second the gov would never sign such a bill.

And you are already required to present your ID at many many occasions. It is absolutely retarded to let an illegal immigrant continue when it is obvious they are not citizens. People here are asking for ZERO enforcement of border laws.

[AuH20]

fas·cism
   /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ Show Spelled[fash-iz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
1.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
2.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
3.
( initial capital letter ) a fascist movement, esp. the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922–43.
Use fascism in a Sentence
See images of fascism
Search fascism on the Web
Origin:
1915–20; < It fascismo, equiv. to fasc ( io ) bundle, political group ( see fasces) + -ismo -ism

—Related forms
an·ti·fas·cism, noun
pro·fas·cism, noun

*******

Socialism and open boarders do not mix. You are correct. However by closing the boarders and becoming staunch "nationalists", that would make us "National Socialists". Remember who ran the National Socialist Party?

Technically, WE are the enemies of fascism, because the corporate/government alliance enjoys the benefits of unfettered illegal immigration. Thanks for bringing that point forth. Anti-illegal immigration = anti-fascism.

[ababba]

I support open borders.

The welfare state/illegal immigration argument is generally wrong.

People currently living in a welfare state have the same incentives to not work and mooch off the state as immigrants. Most choose to work and earn a better living for their family. Once immigrants enter the country, they face the same marginal incentives to work as those already here. You have to answer the fundamental question of why immigrants are more lazy than those already here.

I think the average immigrant is generally less lazy than the average american, but its certainly not a runaway win for Americans, which this argument requires.

[AuH20]

+1776

Come here with rational arguments not slogans or meaningless catch phrases in an attempt to make ridiculous comparisons.

There are a few people who are emotionally invested in the illegal immigration debate, which in turn clouds their judgement. And as we all know, the law shouldn't be based on emotion or selective enforcement. It should be blind.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

Sorry, this is not a Either/Or deal and its the same false-dichotomy bullshit as the Left/Right 'divide'. There are better ways of dealing with Immigration than making all of us suffer under repression by having to display government documents everywhere we go. There is also the fact that we have far bigger fish to fry as well as the falling/declining birth rates the world over (we've plateaued as it is and by 2050 there are going to be ALOT less of us than there are now). Gutting the banking cartel scum will heal ALOT of the problems we have now, including our ailing economy.

[angelatc]

I predict that the actual demonization won't be the race card. They've played that many times already.

The demonization will come when the deportations start breaking up families. <sniffle>

There may well be better ways to get them to leave. If each state has a different plan, we'll likely find one or two that actually work.

[Stary Hickory]

There are a few people who are emotionally invested in the illegal immigration debate, which in turn clouds their judgement. And as we all know, the law shouldn't be based on emotion. It should be blind.

Yeah I know, I just get tired of no one really giving a krap about the welfare state and it's corrupting influence on the country yet absolutely supporting things like immigration which will worsen the problem.

I am the type of person that never wants to see another human being forced to do anything, it's a sad day when a criminal gets put away in my book. But necessary. But with the huge welfare state and our country now teetering on the edge of absolute unlimited government and tyranny due to a corrupt democracy and gutting of our constitution I cannot just sit by and let it all go to hell.

If we allow politicians to pander to foreigners by offering them our slave labor and our property how can we continue? I refuse to live in that world. A change must come. If we rid ourselves of welfarism and insituionalized violence controlled by mob rule then we would have nothing to fear from any immigrant.

Until such a time border security must be kept.

[Stary Hickory]

Sorry, this is not a Either/Or deal and its the same false-dichotomy bullshit as the Left/Right 'divide'. There are better ways of dealing with Immigration than making all of us suffer under repression by having to display government documents everywhere we go. There is also the fact that we have far bigger fish to fry as well as the falling/declining birth rates the world over (we've plateaued as it is and by 2050 there are going to be ALOT less of us than there are now). Gutting the banking cartel scum will heal ALOT of the problems we have now, including our ailing economy.

What is the better way of it is not enforcement? Tell me please? And then articulate how we get there. The AZ bill is mostly sensible....unless you believe in open borders and unlimited immigration.

[silentshout]

No, but I still disagree with the "show me your papers" bs law.

[fj45lvr]

Why don't we watch and control our own border as well as we do foreign ones???


pathetic.

[AuH20]

Why don't we watch and control our own border as well as we do foreign ones???


pathetic.

Tells you how bogus the WoT is.

[The Patriot]

There are better ways of dealing with Immigration than making all of us suffer under repression by having to display government documents everywhere we go

I agree, where does the law say I have to carry my passport wherever I go? You are confusing this reasonable measure based on reasonable suspicion(totally within the parameters of the Constitution) to the National Biometric ID Card for law abiding Americans who have committed no legal infraction under reasonable suspicion.

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

What is the better way of it is not enforcement? Tell me please? And then articulate how we get there. The AZ bill is mostly sensible....unless you believe in open borders and unlimited immigration.

Does it not compute that this is a false issue? This is yet more way the Oligarchs can divide us and cause us to turn on one another. Immigration is a NON-ISSUE! This whole 'Show me your papers!' bullshit HAS to stop! We DON'T want to increase the power of government.

[Stary Hickory]

I agree, where does the law say I have to carry my passport wherever I go? You are confusing this reasonable measure based on reasonable suspicion(totally within the parameters of the Constitution) to the National Biometric ID Card for law abiding Americans who have committed no crimes under reasonable suspicion.

If you have committed a violation or break the law you have to identify yourself anyways. All you need is a drivers license or another way of identifying yourself.

We delve into the absurd when we make believe we not identify ourselves like that. It's logical then that an officer would know if someone was legally here or not. They already know now. But now they can take action. I am fine with enforcing immigration laws.

Maybe they would not be necessary if there was no welfare state. But no one here clamors about ending the welfare state....which bugs me. The welfare state is the source of the violence.

[Spider-Man]

I could not respond to this poll, because neither option expressed my view accurately.

[aravoth]

And you are already required to present your ID at many many occasions. It is absolutely retarded to let an illegal immigrant continue when it is obvious they are not citizens. People here are asking for ZERO enforcement of border laws.

what makes it obvious that they are not citizens?

I'm not advocating for zero enforcement, but I sure as hell am not advocating for rounding people up, putting them on a cattle car and dumping them right back into the oppressive shithole they just came from.

[fj45lvr]

I sure as hell am not advocating for rounding people up, putting them on a cattle car and dumping them right back into the oppressive shithole they just came from.


is this refrencing rounding up U.S. expats abroad??:D

[mikem317]

Immigrants should immigrate into the United States legally. Having said that, the immigration process is a disaster. It needs to be drastically overhauled to left whomever come into the United States provided they are not a violent felon and don't have any communicable diseases.

The United States government is discharged with only a few responsibilities, one of which is defending the nation's borders.

[silus]

I don't like the options, and not believing in amnesty doesn't also include belief in a horrible remedy.

I don't believe in illegal immigration, but trying to kick them all out is just retarded and will not work. Just think of how much law enforcement we would have to devote, and how ineffective it would be considering the relative ease of reentry. The only way to do this is to remove the incentives for them coming.