Is the new Arizona illegal immigration law a good way to reduce illegal immigration?

[Sands2]

Is the New Arizona illegal immigration law a good way to reduce illegal immigration?

Setting aside that we all know it's their right to enact the law- Is it a good law?

[silus]

No and no.

[Danke]

Is the New Arizona illegal immigration law a good way to reduce illegal immigration?

Setting aside that we all know it's their right to enact the law- Is it a good law?

What if I have no papers? What do they do with me? Where do they send me? Or is it just indefinite detention? GITMO?

[pcosmar]

It's a Back door to Real ID.
It will do nothing as far as immigration.
:(

[slothman]

Does it require a Godwin's "Papers please?"

[james1906]

Setting aside that we all know it's their right to enact the law

* Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

* Fifth Amendment – due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.

No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

* Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

[REDNECK WOMAN]

Yes , I agree with AZ.

[pcosmar]

Yes , I agree with AZ.

Do you want your tattoo on your forehead or on your hand?

[REDNECK WOMAN]

Do you want your tattoo on your forehead or on your hand?

I dont need one, they just need to get all illegals out!!!! what's the need for a tattoo if they ship them back to where they came from?

[pcosmar]

I dont need one, they just need to get all illegals out!!!! what's the need for a tattoo if they ship them back to where they came from?

Because this won't do that, but it will do this.
YouTube - 4409 -- Arrested over Arizona's Real I.D. Paper's Please SB1070 bill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knv6nDZX1mc)

[JeNNiF00F00]

I dont need one, they just need to get all illegals out!!!! what's the need for a tattoo if they ship them back to where they came from?

Are you that thick to think that they're only wanting the Mexicans? Don't forget there are WHITE Mexicans too. You as a supporter of "Liberty" is on the list as well. They are getting their foot in the door to bring in the next steps of tyranny. First its the illegal aliens, then its the domestic terrorists. Thats YOU! Papers please!!

[EndDaFed]

I dont need one, they just need to get all illegals out!!!! what's the need for a tattoo if they ship them back to where they came from?

You can't be serious? I mean reading your post I almost confused it for onion material.

[REDNECK WOMAN]

If the Feds would do their job AZ wouldn't have passed the Bill!!!! 70% for the bill in AZ. Would you like to worry about your family being kidnapped or killed by a drunk Mexican driving the wrong way on the freeway that can't read ENGLISH? As soon as they kill an American they go running back over the border. This happens all over the US and something needs to be done!!! AZ has the right to protect their State and the Citizens. All they need to do is ask for papers from them showing they are legally here in this Country, so we don't need a REAL ID. Close our Borders period!!! If they can show they are legally here, paying taxes,speak ENGLISH and not living off welfare then I have no problem with them being here.

[JeNNiF00F00]

If the Feds would do their job AZ wouldn't have passed the Bill!!!! 70% for the bill in AZ. Would you like to worry about your family being kidnapped or killed by a drunk Mexican driving the wrong way on the freeway that can't read ENGLISH? As soon as they kill an American they go running back over the border. This happens all over the US and something needs to be done!!! AZ has the right to protect their State and the Citizens. All they need to do is ask for papers from them showing they are legally here in this Country, so we don't need a REAL ID. Close our Borders period!!! If they can show they are legally here, paying taxes,speak ENGLISH and not living off welfare then I have no problem with them being here.

Should we give all the legal ones a star to wear at all times, or should we just go ahead and line them up and direct them to the showers?

http://ww2army.com/images/images/jewish.jpg

[Southron]

Simple solution:stay out of Arizona.

They probably didn't want you there anyway.

[Petar]

This law is the wrong way to deal with illegal immigration, because it violates the 4th amendment rights of all US citizens.

Obama is right to condemn it, but he is wrong for not pushing the federal government and states to be doing what they should be doing to combat illegal immigration.

I am looking forward to hearing Ron Paul's thoughts on this issue.

[Koz]

This is a tricky subject. I am vehemently anti-illegal immigration, and they obviously have big problems in AZ with crime directly related to illegal aliens. It is a state's right to govern itself, which Arizona has done by passing this law. The Federal government has done just about nothing to close the borders, nor have they shown any willingness to do so.

The fact does remain that this law is probably unconstitutional and clearly vilolates the 4th amendment among others. As much as I like AZ taking this matter into thier own hands, I can't say I like the law. I am glad that AZ is standing up for itself, unfortunately thier legislators know as much about our consitution as the legislators in Washington.

[Wolverine302]

I dont need one, they just need to get all illegals out!!!! what's the need for a tattoo if they ship them back to where they came from?

Do you know how the state of Texas, and pretty much the whole south became US Territories and States? In fact, why not throw the whole United States?
:rolleyes:

[awake]

Property owners should say who can and who can not enter their property, they alone should set the rules. Since the government claims ownership of all property of its citizens and in turn grants limited privileges to the managers of their property, we find ourselves with open poorly manged borders.

Strict property rights are the only solution. Those who own the property say who can and can not be there.

Can any one envision the government managing the borders of each family house hold and stating that anyone can claim to live at your house as long as they go through the proper government procedure? You can see the ridiculousness of it.

What you have now is politicians opening everyone's property up for everyone else to use, which is communal and chaotic in control. This is the cause of the problem - everyone thinks they have a right to control everyone's property.

Public property is inherently conflictual as it is owned by all and controlled by a privileged few.

[REDNECK WOMAN]

Should we give all the legal ones a star to wear at all times, or should we just go ahead and line them up and direct them to the showers?

http://ww2army.com/images/images/jewish.jpg


Where in the post did I write that we need a star, stand in the shower or real ID? If our Feds and Gov would do their job and send all illegals back we wouldn't have this problem. Therefore how would that cause us to have the real ID? Just simply ask for Illegals to produce ID, legal paper work, etc. and employer's to do a back ground check. If they find they are here illegally then turn them in to the police and deport.

Here in NC everyday we have Illgals killing American's. Here a few examlpe.s
Cesar Laurean
Cesar Armando Laurean
Born November 13, 1986 (1986-11-13) (age 23) [12]


Place of birth Mexico
Allegiance United States of America
Service/branch United States Marine Corps
Rank Corporal
Unit 2nd Marine Logistics Group[2]

Marine Corporal Cesar Laurean (SEH'-sahr LOHR'-ee-uhn), the 21 year old prime suspect in the case, was the man whom Lauterbach accused of sexually assaulting her.[13] A federal warrant for unlawful flight to avoid prosecution was issued for his arrest on January 12, 2008.[14] The Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Naval Criminal Investigative Service issued a wanted flier on him. There was also a $25,000 reward offered by the FBI and $5,000 from the state of North Carolina for information leading to his capture.[15] Onslow County has primary jurisdiction, but the Judge Advocate General's office may bring charges as well, to include but not limited to charges stemming from Laurean's deserter status.[16]

Shortly after the murder, the press reported that Laurean fled to Mexico, his country of birth.[17] Mexican officials issued an arrest warrant for Laurean as a suspect of killing his pregnant colleague, a U.S. Embassy official said on January 29, in Mexico City. Interpol also issued an international wanted notice for Laurean. [18] A cousin of the Corporal informed reporters that the Marine visited family in the area of Guadalajara, Mexico in late January 2008, but left without saying where he was headed.[19]America's Most Wanted featured this story on their April 5, 2008 episode.

On April 10, 2008, the FBI announced that Cesar Laurean had been apprehended in Tacambaro, Michoacan, Mexico. [20] The popular press indicated that his extradition might involve at least two years of legal proceedings, considering the relationship between the United States and Mexico. In September 2008, Onslow County District Attorney Dewey Hudson agreed not to seek the death penalty, and a Mexican judge agreed to extradite Laurean.

However, in October 2008, Laurean launched another appeal to the Mexican courts to prevent his extradition, arguing that North Carolina's life-without-parole sentence for first-degree murder is not only barred under the countries' extradition treaty but is considered cruel and unusual punishment. (In North Carolina, a person convicted of first-degree murder can only be sentenced to death or life without parole.)[21] On April 17, 2009, the FBI announced that Laurean had been extradited to the United States and was being held in the Onslow County jail.[22] In December, an Onslow County judge agreed that the trial should be moved to a different county due to the extensive media coverage on the case, and scheduled it to begin on June 28, 2010.[23] In January 2010, Wayne County was selected.[24]

In 2009, Mary Lauterbach filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Caesar and his wife Christina, accusing them of conspiring to conceal the murder.[25]


Family of 4 murdered in Catawba County
Posted: Mar 12, 2009 9:45 AM EDT
Updated: Mar 19, 2009 9:58 AM EDT
Featured Videos
Family murdered: relatives react
Family murdered: latest on investigation CONOVER, NC (WBTV) - A man whose wife and three children were found slain in their North Carolina home hasn't been able to eat since learning of their deaths on Thursday.

That's according to family friend Mai Cai who lives next door to the family in the Millstone community.

The friend says Brian Tzeo believes he has no reason to live since he learned his wife, two daughters and son were killed Thursday morning while he was working at International Paper in Statesville.

Some of the victims were found shot and some were stabbed to death in their home near Conover, about 40 miles northwest of Charlotte.

A witness told authorities she'd picked up the 17-year-old daughter for school, but returned to the home after telling her of seeing a suspicious man near the house.

When they returned, the teen opened the front door and was pulled into the house by the same unidentified man.

According to family members, the murder victims include Lisa Saephan and her children, 3-year-old Cody Saechao, 17-year-old Pauline Schao, and 20-year-old Melanie Saephan.

Authorities are still looking for the murder suspect. He is described as a male of Asian or Hispanic descent. They released a composite sketch of the suspect Friday afternoon.

He is in 30's to 40's. He was last seen in a black or dark blue Toyota or Honda sedan with a partial plate "P-24."

The SBI is assisting the Catawba County Sheriff's Department with the investigation.

Below is a link to a example of illegals killing American Families and loved ones and leaving the country. Now you tell me that nothing needs to be done.

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_traffic_accidents.h tml

[pcosmar]

Where in the post did I write that we need a star, stand in the shower or real ID? If our Feds and Gov would do their job and send all illegals back we wouldn't have this problem. Therefore how would that cause us to have the real ID? Just simply ask for Illegals to produce ID, legal paper work, etc. and employer's to do a back ground check. If they find they are here illegally then turn them in to the police and deport.


Did you watch the video posted? What part about American Citizens being harassed and detained don't you understand?

YouTube - 4409 -- Arrested over Arizona's Real I.D. Paper's Please SB1070 bill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knv6nDZX1mc)

Or this one.

YouTube - Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUzd7G875Hc)

[silentshout]

No, I think the law in its current form is horrible.

[MelissaWV]

No. I've already posted better ways of doing this. Redundant post is redundant.

[BigSteve]

Yes and Yes.

The other states should follow AZ's example.

[REDNECK WOMAN]

Did you watch the video posted? What part about American Citizens being harassed and detained don't you understand?

YouTube - 4409 -- Arrested over Arizona's Real I.D. Paper's Please SB1070 bill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knv6nDZX1mc)

Or this one.

YouTube - Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUzd7G875Hc)

I feel bad for the guy and that was uncalled for however the last names of the Border Patrol sounds like they maybe Mexican Americans ( which hates us, they are just using our system). As Americans we already have a SS# drivers licence and Birth Cert showing we be long here legally. I bet most Illegals can't prove that and if that can't send them back. Therefore we don't need no real ID. I hope an illegal doesn't kill one of your family memeber's and then flee the Country. Then you get no justice!!!!1

[erowe1]

Setting aside that we all know it's their right to enact the law

We do?

Where does one group of people (the government of Arizona) get the right to impose a law on another group of people (everyone else in Arizona)?

Do I also have a right to impose laws on you?

[erowe1]

As Americans we already have a SS# drivers licence and Birth Cert showing we be long here legally.

And you're ok with all that? We all have to get these papers showing that we're here legally, and if we don't, then it's ok for someone else to kick us off our own land?

[MelissaWV]

I feel bad for the guy and that was uncalled for however the last names of the Border Patrol sounds like they maybe Mexican Americans ( which hates us, they are just using our system). As Americans we already have a SS# drivers licence and Birth Cert showing we be long here legally. I bet most Illegals can't prove that and if that can't send them back. Therefore we don't need no real ID. I hope an illegal doesn't kill one of your family memeber's and then flee the Country. Then you get no justice!!!!1

You're living up to the stereotype, that's for sure.

So you want to walk around with your SS card (actually, you're not supposed to do that, for fear that it will be stolen), driver's license (hopefully you drive... if not... tough luck!), and birth certificate, even if you're out for a jog. Of course, all of these documents are readily available for a price or could be forged, or obtained via forged documents (real license... fake birth certificate).

The strawman of someone killing a family member is nonsense. There are certainly a lot of areas of the country where blacks or whites are statistically likely to rape or murder or molest you and yours. Where are the calls for getting rid of "them"?

Oh and Gomez and Diaz and Griffiths are Mexican last names exclusively? Hmm. That's not true, but don't let that stop you.

[Free Moral Agent]

Is the New Arizona illegal immigration law a good way to reduce illegal immigration?

Yes, I take it you meant effective.


Setting aside that we all know it's their right to enact the law- Is it a good law?

No.


The police as well as any citizen has a good idea as to who is illegal or not. Hang around the parking lot of a Home Depot or follow a landscaping truck and 9 times out of 10 you got yourself an illegal immigrant. So yes, if the intention is to route out and deport illegals (productive or not) it will be effective.

The problem is the fact that cops can arrest a legal citizen who fails to show their papers on suspicion. It has already happened as seen on the 4409 video. I like all the other provisions in the bill except for this one, which has been getting all the publicity.

Whats funny and ironic is that Obama thinks this is irresponsible, when Arizona is using the the Federal law to justify the means by which these illegals are being arrested. Arizona is essentially saying put up or shut up.

[awake]

Immigration is such a viscous topic these days due to high unemployment from this depression. High unemployment is due to minimum wage laws and union coercion to raise wages by threats and extortion. Unions are granted these powers by government and government pays for all of its mistakes by printing new money and causing inflation. Inflation is responsible for the booms and busts (unemployment due to mal- investment being liquidated). To stop the right thing from happening everyone calls for more inflation, more regulations, more protectionism. They become desperate to rekindle the boom times.

Much like heroin addicts trying to stop the addiction with another hit.

Whats the solution that this thread provides? Get a gang of thugs and start kidnapping people out who are deemed to be stealing 'our jobs'. Hog tie, drug, assault and steal their property then kick them out. First it will be the Mexicans, then the Arabs, then the Iranians...Whats more some of those kidnapped would be productive upstanding citizens who are contributing to the wealth of society.

Not long after, if there are still too many people and not enough jobs, then Americans will be drafted (enslaved) and thrown over seas to die; fighting concocted hobgoblins.


It's like saying to yourself dictators, gangs and thugs are evil and unjust, but, if they must exist, they are tolerable when they are enacting my plan, and only then is it OK.

[silus]

Yes and Yes.

The other states should follow AZ's example.
You do realize this is a Ron Paul forum... Just sayin.

[angelatc]

You do realize this is a Ron Paul forum... Just sayin.

And you do realize that Ron Paul isn't a proponent of open borders.....just sayin.

The open borders people and the anarchists should recognize that there are Republicans in the group who want the fucking borders enforced, and are happy to see a governor with enough spine to actually try to do something.

They can stomp their feet, bitch about racism, and whine endlessly about natural law, and they won't be saying anything I haven't heard before.

End the welfare state and I'll happily join the open borders lobby. Until then, I support the governor's position here.

[JeNNiF00F00]

And you do realize that Ron Paul isn't a proponent of open borders.....just sayin.

The open borders people and the anarchists should recognize that there are Republicans in the group who want the fucking borders enforced, and are happy to see a governor with enough spine to actually try to do something.

They can stomp their feet, bitch about racism, and whine endlessly about natural law, and they won't be saying anything I haven't heard before.

End the welfare state and I'll happily join the open borders lobby. Until then, I support the governor's position here.


It has nothing to do with "open boarders". This has to do with how things are being done. When you give govt an inch they take a mile. This is a backdoor way of getting everyone tagged. Just wait. Its like the Patriot Act....for our own protections right? And I agree with you about the welfare state. This is why we must end it. When that happens, the ones wanting to leach off of us will go home. The ones wanting to actually have a take at the American Dream and become productive members of society will stay and flourish.

[fedup100]

And you do realize that Ron Paul isn't a proponent of open borders.....just sayin.

The open borders people and the anarchists should recognize that there are Republicans in the group who want the fucking borders enforced, and are happy to see a governor with enough spine to actually try to do something.

They can stomp their feet, bitch about racism, and whine endlessly about natural law, and they won't be saying anything I haven't heard before.

End the welfare state and I'll happily join the open borders lobby. Until then, I support the governor's position here.

^This!

[awake]

"...there may well be a time when immigration is like an invasion and we have to treat it differently. My approach to immigration is somewhat different than the others. Mine is you deal with it economically We’re in worse shape now because we subsidize immigration. We give food stamps, Social Security, free medical care, free education and amnesty. So you subsidize it, and you have a mess. Conditions have changed. And I think this means that we should look at immigration differently. It’s an economic issue more than anything. If our economy was in good health, I don’t think there’d be an immigration problem. We’d be looking for workers and we would be very generous. "- Ron Paul

[damiengwa]

Is the New Arizona illegal immigration law a good way to reduce illegal immigration?

Setting aside that we all know it's their right to enact the law- Is it a good law?

Its not their right to enact such a law. If a man born in the political designation called Mexico migrates to my neighborhood and i rent out my private property to him, he is now a legal resident of MY premises. Exactly when did my neighbors, the busy bodies in DC, or the racists in the state capitol get to tell me who can live in my house?

Where did they get the authority? When did I consent to this power of theirs? Wasn't I born a free man. Are we not all equal in the eyes of God? Who says a man who never hurt any one must prove when demanded what piece of dirt he was born on? WHO REALLY CAN RECALL WHERE THEY WERE BORN?

Seriously, entities like "The State of Arizona" are just concepts. "Arizona" has no rights. Individuals do...

[angelatc]

Seriously, entities like "The State of Arizona" are just concepts. "Arizona" has no rights. Individuals do...

Really? Where's that statute?

[silus]

And you do realize that Ron Paul isn't a proponent of open borders.....just sayin.

The open borders people and the anarchists should recognize that there are Republicans in the group who want the fucking borders enforced, and are happy to see a governor with enough spine to actually try to do something.

They can stomp their feet, bitch about racism, and whine endlessly about natural law, and they won't be saying anything I haven't heard before.

End the welfare state and I'll happily join the open borders lobby. Until then, I support the governor's position here.
Ron Paul is not a fan of people that comprimise their principles for short term interests. Ron Paul is not a fan of "good idea" laws that only complicate the issue and serve those who can't see past whats in front of them. This is you. Just sayin.

P.S. If you think this is about the "open borders lobby" you really shouldn't be commenting. You are absolutely clueless. You just need to accept the fact that different groups can have overlapping opinions...but with differing motives.

[Danke]

Seriously, entities like "The State of Arizona" are just concepts. "Arizona" has no rights. Individuals do...


Really? Where's that statute?

Oh the irony.

[Zippyjuan]

"...there may well be a time when immigration is like an invasion and we have to treat it differently. My approach to immigration is somewhat different than the others. Mine is you deal with it economically We’re in worse shape now because we subsidize immigration. We give food stamps, Social Security, free medical care, free education and amnesty. So you subsidize it, and you have a mess. Conditions have changed. And I think this means that we should look at immigration differently. It’s an economic issue more than anything. If our economy was in good health, I don’t think there’d be an immigration problem. We’d be looking for workers and we would be very generous. "- Ron Paul
Small point, but illegal aliens are not elgible for Social Security. It is the individual states offering free food stamps and education. On general principles he is correct though. But even that won't stop people from coming here looking for work or a better life than the one they have.

[tremendoustie]

Is the New Arizona illegal immigration law a good way to reduce illegal immigration?

Setting aside that we all know it's their right to enact the law- Is it a good law?

Not their right. Not a good law.

Probably will reduce immigration though, and increase emigration. Who wants to live in a police state?

[tremendoustie]

Really? Where's that statute?

:rolleyes:

Yes, nothing is true unless a government employee writes it down. Without government to define it for us, morality would not exist.

[tremendoustie]

And you do realize that Ron Paul isn't a proponent of open borders.....just sayin.

The open borders people and the anarchists should recognize that there are Republicans in the group who want the fucking borders enforced, and are happy to see a governor with enough spine to actually try to do something.

They can stomp their feet, bitch about racism, and whine endlessly about natural law, and they won't be saying anything I haven't heard before.

End the welfare state and I'll happily join the open borders lobby. Until then, I support the governor's position here.

Yes, because if we have the tyranny of the welfare state, we might as well have the tyranny of the police state to go along with it.

Papers please!

You're like the person who says, "I don't like government rules forcing hospitals to take you, but until we get rid of them, I support laws controlling what you many eat and drink, forcing you to exercise, and forcing you to buy insurance".

Instead of simply attempting to get rid of the problem, you support more tyranny to "fix" the ill effects of the first tyranny. Newsflash, if you haven't figured it out yet: the problems of tyranny never end. Each tyranny keeps "fixing" the problems of the last until you're a total serf.