Arizona Latinos Lose Their Cool While the Cameras Roll

[clb09]

YouTube - Apr. 23, 2010 - Arizona SB1070: "Small Riot Breaks Out at Immigration Protest" - part 1\2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgZDYNQEwlM)

YouTube - Apr. 23, 2010 - Arizona SB1070: "Small Riot Breaks Out at Immigration Protest" -part 2\2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p48INNGtXh4)

[MelissaWV]

*sighs* And I expect more of the same, which will only make people say that the bill is a great idea, and turn the entire discourse even more into a dialogue about race/ethnicity than one about civil liberties and Constitutionality. It's par for the course.

I don't suppose it escapes anyone that the only person actually arrested... was arrested for assaulting a police officer. Not the Security guy, not the guy who was allegedly "hurling insults and trying to start a riot," not the kid who threw a water bottle at "riot" guy... but the person who threw a water bottle and happened to hit a cop.

Bunches of people, and just a few causing trouble, who will define the entire opposition to the bill.

It sounds familiar, but somehow I fully expect it will be absorbed and become part of the justification for "good riddance" and "send 'em all back" remarks in the near future.

[newbitech]

are these police hiding behind unarmed citizens at the end of the second video?

[DeadheadForPaul]

Why is it that the Cuban population in Florida is so orderly and upstanding whereas we see riots out West?

[Pete_00]

*sighs* And I expect more of the same, which will only make people say that the bill is a great idea, and turn the entire discourse even more into a dialogue about race/ethnicity than one about civil liberties and Constitutionality. It's par for the course.

To this "latinos" everything gravitates around their ethnicity...so it becomes very natural for people who are not of their tribe to become tribalist when confronted with "latino" tribalism.

[specsaregood]

./

[low preference guy]

To this "latinos" everything gravitates around their ethnicity...so it becomes very natural for people who are not of their tribe to become tribalist when confronted with "latino" tribalism.

It turns out Pete is a collectivist racist. Surprise.

[Pete_00]

It turns out Pete is a collectivist racist. Surprise.

"racist" and "collectivist" in one breath :)

Again, this "latinos" are the racists and collectivists but, as usual, there is one standard for whites and another for everyone else...

[RideTheDirt]

are these police hiding behind unarmed citizens at the end of the second video?
It seems like it

I'm glad these guys had sense to calm the group down, that could have turned very ugly.

[newbitech]

Why is it that the Cuban population in Florida is so orderly and upstanding whereas we see riots out West?


immigrants in Florida are competing with different ethnic groups. There is a strong Latino culture and heritage in places like Ybor City, South and West Tampa, Little Havana, Hialeah.

I think out west there is no real culture for Latinos of any blood and this causes the cultural restlessness. I also don't see too much of a history of diversity that would inspire immigrants from different countries to go out west. Big cities like SF, LA, or SD are convenient destinations for immigrants south of the border, and AZ is in my mind a jump off point more than anything else.

I would say by far out of all the various Latino Cultures and heritages, Cubans in FL are the most outspoken, organized, and violent.

Here is a video of a Little Havana protest that turned violent. These little things happen quite a bit in Miami.

http://wcbstv.com/watercooler/protest.posada.carilles.2.278377.html

video on the right.

[angelatc]

Bunches of people, and just a few causing trouble, who will define the entire opposition to the bill.


Sure. Nothing like violence to get the public to turn against you.

[silus]

Again, this "latinos" are the racists and collectivists but, as usual, there is one standard for whites and another for everyone else...
How about you stick to the issue instead of using this as an opportunity to sound like a whining bitch.

[angelatc]

Because cubans are a special class of immigrant? They get citizenship just by getting here and touching dry land.

Exactly. Our president invited them to come. They aren't here illegally.

[Reason]

It turns out Pete is a collectivist racist. Surprise.

Pete is a known troll.

[JeNNiF00F00]

When I was in Tampa, there were many different Latino cultures, mixed with white and black people. People seemed to work together, and everyone brings something to the table. What would Tampa be without Ybor and their awesome Cuban sandwiches? I never experienced racism of any kind in Tampa, altho Im sure it was out there. Just not with the people I was around. Overall everyone seemed to work together.

My question is however, what are the Mexican's out west bringing to the table? Are they simply taking advantage and using us and our laws to benefit their families in Mexico or are they wanting to leave their countries behind and become US citizens like everyone else that has come here for a better life?

[silentshout]

I think this whole thing is just very sad.

[JeNNiF00F00]

I think this whole thing is just very sad.

It looks like a big problem, thats not going to have an easy fix.

[Reason]

antagonizing an emotional crowd of sheep all by yourself is not recommended if you value your life.

[JeNNiF00F00]

antagonizing an emotional crowd of sheep all by yourself is not recommended if you value your life.
I agree. That man was lucky he got out of there alive.

[MelissaWV]

"racist" and "collectivist" in one breath :)

Again, this "latinos" are the racists and collectivists but, as usual, there is one standard for whites and another for everyone else...

Except "Latinos" come in every color along the spectrum, so your "whites" comment is silly and ignorant (surprise!).

How kind of you to notice the several self-identified (we're taking their word for it, or rather the media's) Latinos who were throwing water bottles, but not the many, many, many of them that were not.

I hope you get a hug today, even if it is from a brown person.

[sofia]

[QUOTE=MelissaWV;2662148
Bunches of people, and just a few causing trouble, who will define the entire opposition to the bill.

It sounds familiar, but somehow I fully expect it will be absorbed and become part of the justification for "good riddance" and "send 'em all back" remarks in the near future.[/QUOTE]

dont make these immigrants sound like martyrs...

the illegal ones are lawbreakers...

even most of the legal ones are Obama voters who will vote you into tyrannical ...
government...

we need to send them back, cuz if you think these hordes of Latino Obama-bot voters could ever be converted to "libertarianism"....well.....a huge LOL to that

[MelissaWV]

dont make these immigrants sound like martyrs...

the illegal ones are lawbreakers...

even most of the legal ones are Obama voters who will vote you into tyrannical ...
government...

we need to send them back, cuz if you think these hordes of Latino Obama-bot voters could ever be converted to "libertarianism"....well.....a huge LOL to that

I didn't make them sound like martyrs.

The illegal ones ARE, in fact, lawbreakers. The legal ones, though, are citizens... just like you (okay, well, kind of) and me. They have that silly right to be secure from random searches unless there's reasonable suspicion of a crime, only now the crime is "you look like one of THEM... papers, please, and I'm going to frisk you for contraband and any dangerous items so I can be safe."

Where's your crusade to get rid of all the other people who voted for Obama? This entire COUNTRY has a serious problem with wanting Government to help them. Those that didn't vote for Obama, by and large, voted for McCain. Do you really think McCain was the "small Government" option? No. Let's send all of them back, too, okay? No? Why not? Is there some OTHER reason you're not telling us about?

You're right, though, on one thing. As long as this board has a few choice people who talk about entire groups as being "beyond help" and "responsible for all the ills," the few of us who fit the description will wonder what the fuck we're doing here, and anyone else who sees themselves dismissed might wonder if it's worth donating time or money to any of these efforts at all.

[VegasPatriot]

As long as this board has a few choice people who talk about entire groups as being "beyond help" and "responsible for all the ills," the few of us who fit the description will wonder what the fuck we're doing here, and anyone else who sees themselves dismissed might wonder if it's worth donating time or money to any of these efforts at all.
+1

[fuzzybekool]

Amazing how Liberals can always justify using violence, and the media of course never questions them about it.

[stu2002]

Latinos Gone Wild--new on TruTV

[Cowlesy]

I think this whole thing is just very sad.

I agree with your sentiment that it is very sad. It is sad to me to think that Americans of mexican or latin-american descent feel threatened about being arrested in their own country. It causes them to draw back into ethno-centric corners where the La-Raza types can win them over using racial arguments.

However we can't deny we have a massive illegal immigration problem. Common sense suggests that the majority of those illegal immigrants crossing the southern border are mexicans. I wish law enforcement would focus their work on violent criminals. I wish the Arizona National Guard would secure their border. I wish citizens of Arizona would work at striking at the root issues like drug laws that provide financial incentive to drug smugglers. I wish lawmakers in Arizona would focus on businesses who utilize illegal immigrant labor.

Targeting the illegal immigrants who are waiting at Home Depot at 6:00AM to go do lawn-work for ten hours straight seems like an extremely misguided approach.

Lots of wishful thinking.

Also, does anyone have an impartial, unbiased analysis of this bill? Has anyone actually read the bill?


Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
Emotional issues are great for getting people to forgo logical thought.

[AlexMerced]

I'm really tired of this issue, we all proclaim individualism and then fall into a collectivst framework when talking about this issue... it's really frustrating.

What will happen in Arizona... they'll kill their tourism since foreigners will be scared to visit, which will kill all sorts of businesses meaning less jobs so things will only get worst. The illegals will just move and continue business as usual while arizonas economy nose dives with the lost tourism... and since the illegals will be gone there will be no one to blame it on but themselves.

Immigration hostility is only symptom, of a shrinking economy, which is a problem caused by a growing public/private sector ratio. Until we fix that... complaining about immigrants just isn't very productive. Should the laws be enforced, yes, should we resent people, no that's just divisive and counter productive.

[Pete_00]

Except "Latinos" come in every color along the spectrum, so your "whites" comment is silly and ignorant (surprise!).

How kind of you to notice the several self-identified (we're taking their word for it, or rather the media's) Latinos who were throwing water bottles, but not the many, many, many of them that were not.

I hope you get a hug today, even if it is from a brown person.

That is EXACTLY why i used "latinos" with brackets ;)

And i wasnt paying much attention to the throwing of water bottles, i was looking at the "big picture", the "big picture" that "sofia" expressed perfectly...


dont make these immigrants sound like martyrs...

the illegal ones are lawbreakers...

even most of the legal ones are Obama voters who will vote you into tyrannical ...
government...

we need to send them back, cuz if you think these hordes of Latino Obama-bot voters could ever be converted to "libertarianism"....well.....a huge LOL to that


Exactly! The "reformed hippies" here are very very naive when it comes to the issue of race and ethnocentrism. This whole immigration and non-white ethnocentrism is an extremely powerful weapon, it completly corrupts representative democracy, millions of racist robots voting the entire nation into tyranny.

I already expressed here that its good for EVERYONE that people of European origin start to develop the ethnocentrism that was brainwashed-out from their heads. Im not nazi, in fact i stated several times that they were all a bunch of butch-homosexuals that wanted to recreate ancient Greece.

Euro is beautiful TOO :)

[speciallyblend]

I didn't make them sound like martyrs.

The illegal ones ARE, in fact, lawbreakers. The legal ones, though, are citizens... just like you (okay, well, kind of) and me. They have that silly right to be secure from random searches unless there's reasonable suspicion of a crime, only now the crime is "you look like one of THEM... papers, please, and I'm going to frisk you for contraband and any dangerous items so I can be safe."

Where's your crusade to get rid of all the other people who voted for Obama? This entire COUNTRY has a serious problem with wanting Government to help them. Those that didn't vote for Obama, by and large, voted for McCain. Do you really think McCain was the "small Government" option? No. Let's send all of them back, too, okay? No? Why not? Is there some OTHER reason you're not telling us about?

You're right, though, on one thing. As long as this board has a few choice people who talk about entire groups as being "beyond help" and "responsible for all the ills," the few of us who fit the description will wonder what the fuck we're doing here, and anyone else who sees themselves dismissed might wonder if it's worth donating time or money to any of these efforts at all.

+1

[MelissaWV]

I agree with your sentiment that it is very sad. It is sad to me to think that Americans of mexican or latin-american descent feel threatened about being arrested in their own country. It causes them to draw back into ethno-centric corners where the La-Raza types can win them over using racial arguments.

However we can't deny we have a massive illegal immigration problem. Common sense suggests that the majority of those illegal immigrants crossing the southern border are mexicans. I wish law enforcement would focus their work on violent criminals. I wish the Arizona National Guard would secure their border. I wish citizens of Arizona would work at striking at the root issues like drug laws that provide financial incentive to drug smugglers. I wish lawmakers in Arizona would focus on businesses who utilize illegal immigrant labor.

Targeting the illegal immigrants who are waiting at Home Depot at 6:00AM to go do lawn-work for ten hours straight seems like an extremely misguided approach.

Lots of wishful thinking.

Also, does anyone have an impartial, unbiased analysis of this bill? Has anyone actually read the bill?

Cowlesy, there are other threads galore on this... and in one of them, the actual law is posted. I posted my response to only two of the more "interesting" parts:

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf


E. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, WITHOUT A WARRANT, MAY ARREST A PERSON IF THE OFFICER HAS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THE PERSON HAS COMMITTED ANY PUBLIC OFFENSE THAT MAKES THE PERSON REMOVABLE FROM THE UNITED STATES.

What is "probable cause" of being an illegal? Not presenting your papers? Ah.

I found this section strange:


A. After December 31, 2007, every employer, after hiring an employee, shall verify the employment eligibility of the employee through the e-verify program

That "probable cause" clause is going to be so easily exploited it's not even funny... and the people going "oh good riddance this'll get rid of the Messicans!" aren't realizing it doesn't actually name illegals from any country. As I pointed out in another thread, EVERYONE looks like an illegal from SOMEwhere.

The actual problem is at employment, taxpayer-provided benefits, and at the border itself. Stopping someone on the street because they look "wrong" is something this board generally rallies against, and there are better ways to address each one of the real issues.

[pcosmar]

. I wish lawmakers in Arizona would focus on businesses who utilize illegal immigrant labor.

Targeting the illegal immigrants who are waiting at Home Depot at 6:00AM to go do lawn-work for ten hours straight seems like an extremely misguided approach.

Lots of wishful thinking.



I would seem more cost effective to Observe those that pick them up. Investigate and arrest those that hire them.
Stiff fines and incarceration of the offenders would be both a deterrent and revenue source to offset enforcement.
The problem would soon be eliminated.

[Freedom Forever]

You can't blame the illegals for being unhappy. Government has not enforced the immigration law in nearly 20 years and now suddenly Government decides to crack down. Some of these illegals have been working in the United States for over 20 years. Illegals who have worked in the US for over 6 years should be legalized.

[Brian4Liberty]

YouTube - Apr. 23, 2010 - Arizona SB1070: "Small Riot Breaks Out at Immigration Protest" -part 2\2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p48INNGtXh4)

And the irony award goes to the kid who yells:

"Get that white guy! Fucking racist!" :rolleyes:

[puppetmaster]

You can't blame the illegals for being unhappy. Government has not enforced the immigration law in nearly 20 years and now suddenly Government decides to crack down. Some of these illegals have been working in the United States for over 20 years. Illegals who have worked in the US for over 6 years should be legalized.

OK have to create a new department for this...more taxes to run the newly created dept. Hey buddy fill this form out, tell us you worked under the table for...wait.... what company was that? hmm here comes the IRS......
How would verify work, I cut grass for my brother in law and he is illegal also, but trust me i worked? this would be a huge cluster F%$k and would only cause more problems

your plan has many flaws. the whole mess stinks!

[BigSteve]

http://amren.com/features/hispanics/index.html

[MelissaWV]

http://amren.com/features/hispanics/index.html

That's fascinating and very telling.


The characteristics of these populations are often quite different, with Cuban immigrants generally more economically successful than those from Mexico, Central America, or Puerto Rico.

For instance, I've now learned that, although born an American citizen, you'd consider me an "immigrant."


Because of their low incomes, Hispanics are the major population group most likely to use welfare: In 2004, 50 percent of Hispanic households used at least one form of welfare, compared to 47 percent of blacks and 18 percent of whites (see Figure 6).

Of course, when you look at the site they refer to...


[Numbers in thousands. People who lived with someone (a nonrelative or a relative) who received aid. Not every person tallied here received the aid themselves]

So having larger households would skew these numbers.

I had much more typed out, but honestly, screw it. No one is going to change anyone's mind. This is a great opportunity for people to pitch civil liberties for CITIZENS out the window in order to get rid of illegals. Rather than focus on intelligent ways to hone in on illegals (of all races), legislators are going to ride the tide of dissatisfaction with a portion of the Mexican population and get what they ultimately want.

[angelatc]

I'm not going to get fired up about this. I think "Probable cause" has some specific meanings in legalese, although I wouldn't be surprised if Bobby24 corrected me either.

If the police pull over a drunk who can't speak English, then they should have the right to check out his citizenship status. It's no different than checking for outstanding warrants.

[low preference guy]

I'm not going to get fired up about this. I think "Probable cause" has some specific meanings in legalese, although I wouldn't be surprised if Bobby24 corrected me either.

If the police pull over a drunk who can't speak English, then they should have the right to check out his citizenship status. It's no different than checking for outstanding warrants.

The problem angelatc is that "reasonable cause" is not defined. They can literally detain anyone, citizen or not. And they can't use profiling, so some white Americans will also be asked for their documents to show they do "diverse searches". I won't be surprised if some citizen gets outraged and refuses to show documents, he then gets tasered and some cop shoots him saying he "seemed to have a weapon". I can almost guarantee it will happen.

[angelatc]

The problem angelatc is that "reasonable cause" is not defined.

Are you a lawyer?

[micahnelson]

We don't have enough jobs to support the immigration.
Our social safety net is unsustainable.

We don't solve the problem by stopping immigration. We solve the problem by creating more jobs in America and reforming and reducing the scope of our social safety net.

When jobs are a plenty and nobody "lives off the government", only racists would have a concern about immigration.

[low preference guy]

Are you a lawyer?

no, but I read the law.

Let's wait and see who is right. I wrote a note to remind you when the first innocent American dies due to this law. If it doesn't happen within 6 months of enforcement, I'll apologize to you.

[angelatc]

no, but I read the law.

And did you read my post that mentioned that I believe the phrase actually does have some established precedents to rely on?

[low preference guy]

And did you read my post that mentioned that I believe the phrase actually does have some established precedents to rely on?

Yes. Are you aware of the abuses of the law about "Disorderly conduct"? That law applies only to public places (I'm not a lawyer, but that's Judge Napolitano's opinion). But recently, Henry Louis Gates was detained for being rude to a police officer in his own house! The charges were dropped later, but there was a confrontation.

Let's wait and see who is right. I wrote a note to remind you when the first innocent American dies due to this law. If it doesn't happen within 6 months of enforcement, I'll apologize to you.

[BlackTerrel]

dont make these immigrants sound like martyrs...

the illegal ones are lawbreakers...

even most of the legal ones are Obama voters who will vote you into tyrannical ...
government...

we need to send them back, cuz if you think these hordes of Latino Obama-bot voters could ever be converted to "libertarianism"....well.....a huge LOL to that

Sofia wants lets Latinos in US. Shocker :eek:

Yes the Latins voted for Obama and the whites voted for McCain. What is your point?

[angelatc]

no, but I read the law.

Let's wait and see who is right. I wrote a note to remind you when the first innocent American dies due to this law. If it doesn't happen within 6 months of enforcement, I'll apologize to you.

Do you realize that Arizona is already the kidnapping capital of the country, because the Mexican smugglers hold their "cargo" hostage here while extorting more payments from their relatives? Why no concern for those who will die because the cops weren't allowed ask a guy about his citizenship status when he got pulled over for speeding and they discovered he had no license and couldn't speak English?

It's only Americans that you care about? Sounds pretty racist to me.

If you don't like Arizona's laws, vote with your feet.

[low preference guy]

Do you realize that Arizona is already the kidnapping capital of the country, because the Mexican smugglers hold their "cargo" hostage here while extorting more payments from their relatives? Why no concern for those who will die because the cops weren't allowed ask a guy about his citizenship status when he got pulled over for speeding and they discovered he had no license and couldn't speak English?

It's only Americans that you care about? Sounds pretty racist to me.

If you don't like Arizona's laws, vote with your feet.

The right way to do it is to stop them at the border, not turn the state into a polite state.

Caring about Americans is racist? That's one of the most ridiculous things I heard in a long time. I'm talking about Americans here because it's obvious their rights are being violated in this case.

[angelatc]

Yes. Are you aware of the abuses of the law about "Disorderly conduct"? That law applies only to public places (I'm not a lawyer, but that's Judge Napolitano's opinion). But recently, Henry Louis Gates was detained for being rude to a police officer in his own house! The charges were dropped later, but there was a confrontation.

Let's wait and see who is right. I wrote a note to remind you when the first innocent American dies due to this law. If it doesn't happen within 6 months of enforcement, I'll apologize to you.

Disorderly conduct has nothing to do with this topic. We were talking about probable cause, or reasonable cause. You said it isn't defined. I said there are indeed precedents.

Are you conceding that point now? Because the only way you can segue to an abuse of the law is to admit that there are precedents that indicate that the concept of non-abuse also exists.

Should cops be allowed to abuse people? No. Should cops be allowed to ask about citizenship? Yes.

Are there bad people on both sides of the issue? Yes.

[angelatc]

The right way to do it is to stop them at the border, not turn the state into a polite state.

Caring about Americans is racist? That's one of the most ridiculous things I heard in a long time. I'm talking about Americans here because it's obvious their rights are being violated in this case.

So the illegals don't actually have rights? They get stuck in a cargo container in the desert...too bad for them?

And you'd rather have the military on the border than allow the cops to question people? Seriously?

That's why I asked if you were a lawyer. There are precedents that establish when the police are allowed to ask for ID. Asking for proof of citizenship as part of that doesn't take away a right from anybody. Why do we issue Visas and green cards if we're not allowed to ask for them?

[low preference guy]

Disorderly conduct has nothing to do with this topic. We were talking about probable cause, or reasonable cause. You said it isn't defined. I said there are indeed precedents.

Are you conceding that point now? Because the only way you can segue to an abuse of the law is to admit that there are precedents that indicate that the concept of non-abuse also exists.

Should cops be allowed to abuse people? No. Should cops be allowed to ask about citizenship? Yes.

Are there bad people on both sides of the issue? Yes.

I concede whatever technical points you were talking about. But I stand behind my statement that innocent Americans will probably die because of this law. Giving police power in to detain innocent Americans is insane considering how the police abuse their powers.

Again, the right thing is to stop them at the border.

Lastly, according to Judge Nap, the law is so unconstitutional it's going to be repealed soon. Let's see what happens.

[low preference guy]

So you'd rather have the military on the border than allow the cops to question people? Seriously?

Of course! Checking who gets into the country is a national security issue.

[LibForestPaul]

Chinese immigrants came to America in large numbers during the 1848 California Gold Rush and in the 1860s when the Central Pacific Railroad recruited large labor groups to build its portion of the Transcontinental railroad. Large-scale immigration continued into the late 1800s, with 123,201 Chinese recorded as arriving between 1871 and 1880, and 61,711 arriving between 1881 and 1890.

At first, when surface gold was plentiful, the Chinese were well tolerated and well-received.[1] As gold became harder to find and competition increased, animosity toward the Chinese and other foreigners increased. After being forcibly driven from the mines, most Chinese settled in enclaves in cities, mainly San Francisco, and took up low end wage labor such as restaurant work and laundry. With the post Civil War economy in decline by the 1870s, anti-Chinese animosity became politicized by labor leader Dennis Kearney and his Workingman's Party[2] as well as by California Governor John Bigler, both of whom blamed Chinese "coolies" for depressed wage levels. Another significant anti-Chinese group organized in California during this same era was the Supreme Order of Caucasians with some 64 chapters statewide.


The Chinese Exclusion Act was a United States federal law signed into law by Chester A. Arthur on May 8, 1882, following revisions made in 1880 to the Burlingame Treaty of 1868. Those revisions allowed the U.S. to suspend immigration, and Congress subsequently acted quickly to implement the suspension of Chinese immigration, a ban that was intended to last 10 years.

http://contexts.org/socimages/files/2008/07/ch2.jpg

[low preference guy]

For those curious about the legality of this law:

YouTube - Judge Napolitano on SB 1070 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKQUXhC2VXQ)

[Captain America]

illegals should be sent back to wherever they are from, you cant reward lawbreaking with citizenship, i am concerned about people having to show their papers.

[angelatc]

Of course! Checking who gets into the country is a national security issue.

And you don't think that they'll use that power to keep us in the country when all hell breaks loose?

How about the law that prohibits the use of troops on American soil? Ready to give up that right?

[angelatc]

For those curious about the legality of this law:

YouTube - Judge Napolitano on SB 1070 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKQUXhC2VXQ)

I hate watching YouTube video. Video is too slow.

Just give me his bullet points.

[Captain America]

For those curious about the legality of this law:

YouTube - Judge Napolitano on SB 1070 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKQUXhC2VXQ)

he didn't explain why its unconstitutional. why can't you send back people that are not here legally?

[low preference guy]

And you don't think that they'll use that power to keep us in the country when all hell breaks loose?

How about the law that prohibits the use of troops on American soil? Ready to give up that right?

About american troops, I don't know if they're allowed to be in American soil, but if they're not, they shouldn't be there. I know, however, that there is authority for someone to control who gets into the country, maybe it's the police, I don't know. But whoever it is, they should enforce it.

If you want to stop illegal immigration, it's much easier to stop them at the border. That territory is smaller than the entire country, which is where you'll find them once they get in. Once they are in the country, it's close to impossible to stop them. Even if you have a police state, they'll hide, get armed. The country is just too big.

[silus]

I hate watching YouTube video. Video is too slow.

Just give me his bullet points.
Practically speaking its a horrible idea. Constitutionally it is appalling.

And so every argument you put forth is not only wrong, but fundamentally challenges the constitutional position, which begs the question if you really understand why you are in a Ron Paul forum. Just sayin.

[Captain America]

About american troops, I don't know if they're allowed to be in American soil, but if they're not, they shouldn't be there. I know, however, that there is authority for someone to control who gets into the country, maybe it's the police, I don't know. But whoever it is, they should enforce it.

If you want to stop illegal immigration, it's much easier to stop them at the border. That territory is smaller than the entire country, which is where you'll find them once they get in. Once they are in the country, it's close to impossible to stop them. Even if you have a police state, they'll hide, get armed. The country is just too big.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

[orenbus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

It's interesting because I did see members of our military in uniform with automatic weapons positioned in various commuter locations in and around New York City years after 9/11. I wonder what exclusion that would fall under, JSOC is mentioned although there is no clear definition of what exclusions would fall under that umbrella.



On September 26, 2006, President Bush urged Congress to consider revising federal laws so that U.S. armed forces could restore public order and enforce laws in the aftermath of a natural disaster, in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

These changes were included in the John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007 (H.R. 5122), which was signed into law on October 17, 2006.[3]

Section 1076 is titled "Use of the Armed Forces in major public emergencies". It provided that:

The President may employ the armed forces... to... restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition... the President determines that... domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order... or [to] suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy if such... a condition... so hinders the execution of the laws... that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law... or opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws.[4]

In 2008, these changes were repealed in their entirety, reverting to the previous wording of the Insurrection Act.[5]

I find this passage interesting, does this mean that the actions of having the military in a role after Katrina was actually found to be not legal and therefore the military can not be used in cases of natural or other type of disaster?

Looking at the Insurrection Act is interesting.

As far as SB 1070 goes, I understand something needs to be done about illegal immigration and this is a result of the federal government failing at protecting the borders, however I am a bit concerned about what SB 1070 means in regards to profiling and specifically being able to charge and detain individuals if they can't provide a driver's license or some other form of identification soley based on the color of their skin.

[Captain America]

If congress gave the President the power then there would be almost no reason to have the PCA. Since it was repealed in 2008 it is illegal for troops to help any law enforcement unless it was one of the exclusions.

[Captain America]

not sure if this was posted anywhere else Police State 4 FULL

YouTube - POLICE STATE 4 (FULL VERSION HQ ) (Order it from infowars.com) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXBNRxUIZBM)

[Brian4Liberty]

When jobs are a plenty and nobody "lives off the government", only racists would have a concern about immigration.

Yep, jobs and supply and demand of labor is a major concern. If you eliminate that issue, racists might still have a concern about immigration. But also xenophobes. And some environmentalists. And Malthusians. And people who suffer from demophobia, metathesiophobia, enochlophobia, ochlophobia, macrophobia or hexakosioihexekontahexaphobia.


Yes the Latins voted for Obama and the whites voted for McCain. What is your point?

And those that are a mix voted for Bob Barr? ;)

[osan]

Why is it that the Cuban population in Florida is so orderly and upstanding whereas we see riots out West?

You cannot really compare Cubans with the Mexicans. Cubans are cut from a wholly different cloth. I would say the upper class Mexicans are similar. Not all hispanic people are the same. I can tell a Cuban from a Puerto Rican from Brazillian from Dominican from... They are pretty distinct. The low-class Mexican culture is utter shit like any ghetto culture is, whether black, white, or what have you. That is mainly what comes across the border and that is what people object to here and I do not blame them.

[osan]

Exactly. Our president invited them to come. They aren't here illegally.

I don't think that has much of anything to do with it. Cubans are conservative by nature and they LOVE the USA. They are industrious, well educated (generally), and do not have nearly the cultural degeneracy of the Mexicans. Mexicans take the macho thing to the point of laughable stupidity. They are, for the most part, a bunch of yahoo idiots whose egos are so frail that they are compelled to live their entire lives trying to prove to the world how tough they are. It is pathetic. Anyone recall a 60 Minutes deal on MX gangs in LA, maybe ca. 1987? Stupid kid about 14 shows off his pistola to the cameramen and then unceremoniously shoots himself, then walks around saying "oh chit... I thin I chot myselp", trying to look all manly about it. They are imbeciles and the Cubans are not. It is as simple as that. It is the difference in the cultures, which in this case constitutes a yawning chasm.

[catdd]

I remember that.

[osan]

You can't blame the illegals for being unhappy. Government has not enforced the immigration law in nearly 20 years and now suddenly Government decides to crack down. Some of these illegals have been working in the United States for over 20 years. Illegals who have worked in the US for over 6 years should be legalized.

No. You boot their manky asses across the border, make them stay there at least 2 years and then you allow them to apply for a work visa. If after 9 years they don't go to jail, remain gainfully employed, and keep their grubby mitts off the government tit, they they may apply for citizenship. This is the way it used to be done and it worked rather well.

[osan]

If the police pull over a drunk who can't speak English, then they should have the right to check out his citizenship status. It's no different than checking for outstanding warrants.

Not really. What if the guy is Polish, just became a citizen, but still speaks English poorly? It isn't right to ask people for their papers and it is a violation of the 4th Amendment. People really DO have the right to secure in their effects etc. All people. If we accept exceptions for one group, we have accepted them for any and all in principle.

If there is probable cause, that is different. Get a warrant and execute it. That is the way things are supposed to be done here.

[tpreitzel]

If the police pull over a drunk who can't speak English, then they should have the right to check out his citizenship status.

Agreed. If we have a new Polish citizen who can't converse in basic English (probable cause of illegal entry), our new American should be accompanied by a companion who can converse in basic English, carry his papers on his person until he can speak conversational English, or face the possibility of being detained to sort out the confusion. The key is "conversational English" which the overwhelming majority of Americans will pass in flying colors without the need for any documentation whatsoever.

[Fr3shjive]

You're right, though, on one thing. As long as this board has a few choice people who talk about entire groups as being "beyond help" and "responsible for all the ills," the few of us who fit the description will wonder what the fuck we're doing here, and anyone else who sees themselves dismissed might wonder if it's worth donating time or money to any of these efforts at all.+1