4409 -- Arrested over Arizona's Real I.D. Paper's Please SB1070 bill

[..PAUL4PRES..]

This bill is NOT about immigration and you think it is they fooled you good.

Now everyone who is stopped gets their information and data transmitted to Homeland security via your drivers license number or your social security number or your name. This was not allowed until this bill was passed. Now they can arrest and detain you for any public offense and run all you data through Homeland security.

YouTube - 4409 -- Arrested over Arizona's Real I.D. Paper's Please SB1070 bill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knv6nDZX1mc)

[JeNNiF00F00]

Wtf

[MelissaWV]

They fooled a lot of people on these forums, even... but one's xenophobia will often blind one to what's really at stake.

Remember, all that's needed is that you be suspected of being an illegal immigrant. That's all the police need to say. They now have probable cause to ask you for your papers, and if you resist, mouth off, have a bulge in your pocket, or anything else, they now have grounds to continue their "securing" of your person. They also will run all that information, as the OP says.

Don't think you look like an illegal?

Not every illegal is Mexican, you know. There are a lot of Asian illegals. Some of those shady Russians/Eastern Europeans try to sneak into this country (they're "white"). There are certainly a lot of Africans whose visas lapse and are here illegally. Middle Eastern? Well, you not only could be mistaken for Mexican (all y'all brown folks look alike!), but you have to be vetted to ensure you're not a terrorist, obviously.

Papers, please.

[pcosmar]

I look a lot like a Canadian. My Mom was from there.
I don't expect this to be confined to Az.
:mad:

[JeNNiF00F00]

They fooled a lot of people on these forums, even... but one's xenophobia will often blind one to what's really at stake.

Remember, all that's needed is that you be suspected of being an illegal immigrant. That's all the police need to say. They now have probable cause to ask you for your papers, and if you resist, mouth off, have a bulge in your pocket, or anything else, they now have grounds to continue their "securing" of your person. They also will run all that information, as the OP says.

Don't think you look like an illegal?

Not every illegal is Mexican, you know. There are a lot of Asian illegals. Some of those shady Russians/Eastern Europeans try to sneak into this country (they're "white"). There are certainly a lot of Africans whose visas lapse and are here illegally. Middle Eastern? Well, you not only could be mistaken for Mexican (all y'all brown folks look alike!), but you have to be vetted to ensure you're not a terrorist, obviously.

Papers, please.

Yep. There are illegals coming in from all over. Also not all Mexican's are "brown" either. I have seen some pretty white looking Mexicans before, blue eyes and everything. The people who have been "fooled" have lost their footing with the R3VOLUTION, and need to remember the goal is Liberty, and not fascism.

[ViniVidiVici]

Makes you wonder if the government has been purposely leaving our borders open so they can do this.

[JeNNiF00F00]

Makes you wonder if the government has been purposely leaving our borders open so they can do this.

Well, someone didn't do their job. Its now going to fall back on EVERYONE. If you don't have papers they can detain you? This is worse than what they do on the trains in Eastern Europe! :mad:

[pcosmar]

Makes you wonder if the government has been purposely leaving our borders open so they can do this.

Ding Ding Ding

BINGO

Get your self a cookie. ;)

[speciallyblend]

They fooled a lot of people on these forums, even... but one's xenophobia will often blind one to what's really at stake.

Remember, all that's needed is that you be suspected of being an illegal immigrant. That's all the police need to say. They now have probable cause to ask you for your papers, and if you resist, mouth off, have a bulge in your pocket, or anything else, they now have grounds to continue their "securing" of your person. They also will run all that information, as the OP says.

Don't think you look like an illegal?

Not every illegal is Mexican, you know. There are a lot of Asian illegals. Some of those shady Russians/Eastern Europeans try to sneak into this country (they're "white"). There are certainly a lot of Africans whose visas lapse and are here illegally. Middle Eastern? Well, you not only could be mistaken for Mexican (all y'all brown folks look alike!), but you have to be vetted to ensure you're not a terrorist, obviously.

Papers, please.

totally agree with you! i can tell you arizona is a state i have marked off my to visit map!!! this stuff needs to stop now!!

[speciallyblend]

Yep. There are illegals coming in from all over. Also not all Mexican's are "brown" either. I have seen some pretty white looking Mexicans before, blue eyes and everything. The people who have been "fooled" have lost their footing with the R3VOLUTION, and need to remember the goal is Liberty, and not fascism.

yep.

[Anti Federalist]

Originally Posted by ViniVidiVici View Post
Makes you wonder if the government has been purposely leaving our borders open so they can do this.

Ding Ding Ding

BINGO

Get your self a cookie. ;)

That +1776

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

YouTube - 4409 -- Arrested over Arizona's Real I.D. Paper's Please SB1070 bill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knv6nDZX1mc)

I don't see the interview with the first person as a win. The person took the time to talk and was familiar with the legislation. 4409 was on the verge of cracking a big nut when he admitted public offense is not defined. Hit the forum up 4409 and allow the market of ideas refine your line of thought/questions.

Jurisdiction is defined in the Arizona Constitution. You all should work to amend this vague ass constitution, it enables terrorist legislators:



14. Superior court; original jurisdiction

Section 14. The superior court shall have original jurisdiction of:

1. Cases and proceedings in which exclusive jurisdiction is not vested by law in another court.
2. Cases of equity and at law which involve the title to or possession of real property, or the legality of any tax, impost, assessment, toll or municipal ordinance.
3. Other cases in which the demand or value of property in controversy amounts to one thousand dollars or more, exclusive of interest and costs.
4. Criminal cases amounting to felony, and cases of misdemeanor not otherwise provided for by law.
5. Actions of forcible entry and detainer.
6. Proceedings in insolvency.
7. Actions to prevent or abate nuisance.
8. Matters of probate.
9. Divorce and for annulment of marriage.
10. Naturalization and the issuance of papers therefor.
11. Special cases and proceedings not otherwise provided for, and such other jurisdiction as may be provided by law.

[phill4paul]

The fed failed at passing a REAL I.D. That doesn't mean that they won't make end runs around it. This is all a part of the plan to initiate a Worker Biometric I.D. If this doesn't work then there will be a health care I.D.
Face it. The government wants to require every citizen to carry there "papers" at all times.
What the fed wants it eventually gets. Unless we stop them.

[John Taylor]

ding ding ding

bingo

get your self a cookie. ;)

+1776.

[John Taylor]

I don't see the interview with the first person as a win. The person took the time to talk and was familiar with the legislation. 4409 was on the verge of cracking a big nut when he admitted public offense is not defined. Hit the forum up 4409 and allow the market of ideas refine your line of thought/questions.

Jurisdiction is defined in the Arizona Constitution. You all should work to amend this vague ass constitution, it enables terrorist legislators:

Superior court jurisdiction has nothing to do with this... the superior court has general jurisdiction over everything that transpired in AZ unless it preempted federally. General juris + the AZ long arm juris.

The second point is that the AZ legislation only enshrines at a state level precisely the EXACT language used in the federal immigration laws. All AZ is attempting to do here is enable police (other and in addition to Sheriff Arpaio) to enforce the immigration laws.

Phoenix is full of drop houses and hundreds of thousands of illegals who commit dispurportionately high percentages of violent and property crimes.

[sharpsteve2003]

Bump for 4409

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Superior court jurisdiction has nothing to do with this... the superior court has general jurisdiction over everything that transpired in AZ unless it preempted federally. General juris + the AZ long arm juris.

The second point is that the AZ legislation only enshrines at a state level precisely the EXACT language used in the federal immigration laws. All AZ is attempting to do here is enable police (other and in addition to Sheriff Arpaio) to enforce the immigration laws.

Phoenix is full of drop houses and hundreds of thousands of illegals who commit dispurportionately high percentages of violent and property crimes.

And what is the limited jurisdiction of the fed exactly John?

[MelissaWV]

Yep. There are illegals coming in from all over. Also not all Mexican's are "brown" either. I have seen some pretty white looking Mexicans before, blue eyes and everything. The people who have been "fooled" have lost their footing with the R3VOLUTION, and need to remember the goal is Liberty, and not fascism.

Oh it's already been broughten...


No problem, I have my papers right here. Anyone that cannot produce those papers need s to skedaddle.

The real beauty of this law is that most will self deport almost instantly. There will be far less crime, the food banks can take care of the americans and there will be job openings.

This is a win win for the people of that state. I did a little jig last night. for the first time in a very long time, I saw a small victory for the american people.

[tpreitzel]

The only way to stop these fascists from implementing their agenda for a national ID is through basic profiling like historically done at the borders. Simply hold a brief conversation with a suspect and proceed from there if necessary. Essentially, conversational English is your passport. No papers needed.

BTW, the illegal immigration problem began in earnest with LBJ's administration so these fascists plan for a long, LONG time.

[MelissaWV]

The only way to stop these fascists from implementing their agenda for a national ID is through basic profiling like historically done at the borders. Simply hold a brief conversation with a suspect and proceed from there if necessary. Essentially, conversational English is your passport. No papers needed.

BTW, the illegal immigration problem began in earnest with LBJ's administration so these fascists plan for a long, LONG time.

The rest of my family's English is not "conversational" or perfect by any stretch, but they're American citizens.

Most Native speakers' English is beyond suspect.

The border patrol's English is likely going to be even worse than the average Native speaker's, making them fairly unfit to judge much of anything.

There are a whole lot of accents all around the USA, and there are a lot of foreigners who are here illegally and speak terrific English.

This generally seems like a big, massive ball of fail, and it absolutely doesn't address the actual gripes people have with illegals.

[libertygrl]

Okay, this may seem like a silly question but back in the day when we didn't have this influx of illegal immigrants and the laws were enforced, how did they go about deporting people when they were in this country illegally? Didn't they have to ask for some form of identification? :confused:

[reardenstone]

This to me qualifies as a case for individual rights superseding states rights. My question has been answered and my preference is for federal constitutional law to either stop this or for individual's rights to be upheld in court.

[axiomata]

Okay, this may seem like a silly question but back in the day when we didn't have this influx of illegal immigrants and the laws were enforced, how did they go about deporting people when they were in this country illegally? Didn't they have to ask for some form of identification? :confused:
What is "back in the day"? What year are you talking about?

For most of history we had an open door immigration policy, especially if you were lucky enough to be coming from western Europe. Chinese and other disfavored immigrants had some nasty acts put in their way to block free immigration.

From Mexico, people crossed the border all the time and most paid no attention.

On a side note, is there a youtube of the news report only that is featured in the OP youtube?

[silus]

Is this the issue that will definitively split the tea party?

[idirtify]

Okay, this may seem like a silly question but back in the day when we didn't have this influx of illegal immigrants and the laws were enforced, how did they go about deporting people when they were in this country illegally? Didn't they have to ask for some form of identification? :confused:

I think libertygrl has a pretty good question. IOW what is the RIGHT way to enforce legal immigration? Is there any justified way to “catch” the “crime” of illegal immigration beyond incidentally discovering it through another route/crime? There seems to be a fundamental problem of some sort here, but I honestly don’t know what it is.

Let’s look at other crime. With robbery or rape, you often have a victim/complaint which provides the suspect’s description. Apparently cops can rightfully stop people who match this description, without committing “profiling”. Enforcement problems and rights violations seem to develop when there is no clear victim; like with drug laws. I mean how do you catch a thief if there is no report? And if there is no report, was there ever really a crime?

Is illegal immigration really a victimless crime? But if so, what happens to national sovereignty? What happens to defending borders? What becomes of the definition of “citizen”? Are country borders and political land divisions inherently oppressive?

Or should illegal immigration be controlled like lesser crimes which do not include actively searching out violators, such as traffic offenses?

I realize my comments might not address Nazi-type “papers-please” dragnets like AZ just passed, which would not seem justified for ANY type of crime. But I can hear the few honest cops asking: “Look…you want us to catch the illegals, but just how are we supposed to do it? There are no victims.”

[Lord Xar]

Yep. There are illegals coming in from all over. Also not all Mexican's are "brown" either. I have seen some pretty white looking Mexicans before, blue eyes and everything. The people who have been "fooled" have lost their footing with the R3VOLUTION, and need to remember the goal is Liberty, and not fascism.

~85% of illegal immigrants are from south and central america. Sure, there are "some" from other places but c'mon. Lets be real here.

You are correct, the goal is liberty and not anarchy. Open borders are the surest way for big government and the globalist agenda to take hold.

[Lord Xar]

Is this the issue that will definitively split the tea party?

No. The majority of americans and supporters of liberty do not want Amnesty, illegal immigration etc... We want our borders secure, and the rule of law enforced.

It is not us who are the minority but rather those who try to tie "gestapo fear tactics" with following the 'rule of law'.

If anything divides the tea party it will be the RHINO's looking to control it and their need for war. Not illegal immigration/Amnesty.
We don't want it, we don't need it and we will fight it. We are the majority. Sorry.

[JeNNiF00F00]

Okay, this may seem like a silly question but back in the day when we didn't have this influx of illegal immigrants and the laws were enforced, how did they go about deporting people when they were in this country illegally? Didn't they have to ask for some form of identification? :confused:

Ever see Gangs of NY?

[JeNNiF00F00]

~85% of illegal immigrants are from south and central america. Sure, there are "some" from other places but c'mon. Lets be real here.

You are correct, the goal is liberty and not anarchy. Open borders are the surest way for big government and the globalist agenda to take hold.

And putting people in jail because they don't have their papers is NOT anywhere close to Liberty. Globalists are in charge either way the cookie crumbles.

[..PAUL4PRES..]

Ever see Gangs of NY?

That was on AMC earlier tonight. Bill the Butcher was ruthless.

[silus]

No. The majority of americans and supporters of liberty do not want Amnesty, illegal immigration etc... We want our borders secure, and the rule of law enforced.

It is not us who are the minority but rather those who try to tie "gestapo fear tactics" with following the 'rule of law'.

If anything divides the tea party it will be the RHINO's looking to control it and their need for war. Not illegal immigration/Amnesty.
We don't want it, we don't need it and we will fight it. We are the majority. Sorry.
I think you're confusing reality with your interests.

The majority of Americans do not want amnesty or illegal immigration, but that clearly has nothing to do with the point here. The question is how people are willing to go about achieving that. And we know from history that Americans are willing to comprimise the hell out of fundamental principles in order to achieve short term goals, and the polls regarding this in Arizona reflect that, as a Rasmussen Reports poll found 70 percent of likely voters in Arizona back the bill.

So again, is this bill going to split the tea party? It seems it already has in AZ. :shrug

[JeNNiF00F00]

That was on AMC earlier tonight. Bill the Butcher was ruthless.

I know I had to change the channel on the gory parts LOL :D

[JeNNiF00F00]

Is this the issue that will definitively split the tea party?

I think the Tea Party has been split for some time. We don't all have the same philosophies. Fascism was not supposed to be a part of the Tea Party, but apparently some people in these forums believe so and support it. Who woulda thunk youd see fascists supporting Ron Paul. Fascism = Liberty?

[silus]

You can't spell Liberty without the "i" in Facism!

[JeNNiF00F00]

You can't spell Liberty without the "i" in Facism!

Fuck the Isms :P

[Sands2]

Then any, all, and every effort to secure our borders at this point is simply the government trying to increase its power?

Is Ron against all efforts to secure our nation?

We can't control the esoteric, "the reason they come is for welfare".

Not given Prop 187's outcome and our 10th amendment beliefs.

We in CA tried to stop state aide and feds tossed it.

With our firm commitment to the 10th , we can't stop any state such as the current CA from being a sanctuary state.

[JeNNiF00F00]

Then any, all, and every effort to secure our borders at this point is simply the government trying to increase its power?

Is Ron against all efforts to secure our nation?

We can't control the esoteric, "the reason they come is for welfare".

Not given Prop 187's outcome and our 10th amendment beliefs.

We in CA tried to stop state aide and feds tossed it.

With our firm commitment to the 10th , we can't stop any state such as the current CA from being a sanctuary state.

Theyre coming for YOU next! They have to "protect" the nation of the "domestic terrorists" too.

[Sands2]

Theyre coming for YOU next! They have to "protect" the nation of the "domestic terrorists" too.

So your answer is:

Then any, all, and every effort to secure our borders at this point is simply the government trying to increase its power.

[JeNNiF00F00]

So your answer is:

Then any, all, and every effort to secure our borders at this point is simply the government trying to increase its power.

This has nothing to do with securing the boarders. It has to do with controlling the people, and treating them like they were in Nazi Germany. Actually I had this happen to me in Eastern Europe before and it does not feel good! Fascism is not the answer. Before long, this will be for everyone. Kind of like the Real ID. Why don't we all just chip ourselves like cattle so they can keep us in line better.

[silentshout]

This whole thing is horrible...I don't have much else to say but wtf.

[MelissaWV]

I think libertygrl has a pretty good question. IOW what is the RIGHT way to enforce legal immigration? Is there any justified way to “catch” the “crime” of illegal immigration beyond incidentally discovering it through another route/crime? There seems to be a fundamental problem of some sort here, but I honestly don’t know what it is.

Let’s look at other crime. With robbery or rape, you often have a victim/complaint which provides the suspect’s description. Apparently cops can rightfully stop people who match this description, without committing “profiling”. Enforcement problems and rights violations seem to develop when there is no clear victim; like with drug laws. I mean how do you catch a thief if there is no report? And if there is no report, was there ever really a crime?

Is illegal immigration really a victimless crime? But if so, what happens to national sovereignty? What happens to defending borders? What becomes of the definition of “citizen”? Are country borders and political land divisions inherently oppressive?

Or should illegal immigration be controlled like lesser crimes which do not include actively searching out violators, such as traffic offenses?

I realize my comments might not address Nazi-type “papers-please” dragnets like AZ just passed, which would not seem justified for ANY type of crime. But I can hear the few honest cops asking: “Look…you want us to catch the illegals, but just how are we supposed to do it? There are no victims.”

I've already addressed this repeatedly, though. It's funny because even though "illegal immigration" is the "crime," it would not bother people IF they did not have to pay for it and support it and have to deal with the consequences. IMO you have several places to stop illegals:

1. The workplace. Require proof of citizenship/legality in order to work. Hell, I would be fine with providing either a birth certificate or immigration paperwork, and the company can spot-check the veracity of a certain percentage of their workers. Of course there is room for abuse there, but there will ALWAYS be room for abuse. Right now, when I apply for a job they ask for my SSN and there's a little checkbox that asks if I'm a citizen. They generally ask for a copy of your ID, also. Illegals can often get IDs (fake or legal), and they can check and indicate that they are legally okay to work somewhere. What do they have to lose? That is a big point where people would prefer the illegals be weeded out.

2. Benefits. Require proof of citizenship/legality in order to receive benefits. Get serious about spot-checking the veracity of these, too, which might include searching a database to verify a visa or immigration papers, or going so far as to call a state/commonwealth office to verify a birth certificate is legit. Hospitals should continue to provide true emergency care whenever possible even to people whose citizenship they cannot verify, but really only because this makes good business sense. The difference between legal and illegal is not readily visible when someone is carted in unconscious and in need of help. However, stop treating illegals with the sniffles at the ER. Stop performing scans and such that should be routine at the ER. If charities want to open "no questions asked" clinics, then I wouldn't have that big a problem with that (privately-funded), but stop doing all of this at the ER. We all end up footing the bill and the hospitals are in bad shape as it is.

3. Real border security. The states are the ones dealing with the fallout from all of this idiocy, including the drug war spilling over the border and into their cities. Are there non-lethal methods that can be used? Maybe. Can we put up big signs? Sure. Can we have armed guards ready to pick up the people crossing? Of course. The states can figure all this out, and funding it shouldn't be a problem since there's such support for taking care of the issue.

4. When another crime happens. If you've arrested someone, it's more than fine to ask "papers please." This bill fails because it allows officers to arrest on a suspicion of someone being an illegal. Upon what does one base that suspicion? "Hey he was hanging outside a Home Depot!"? "Hey he looked brown and he was speaking Spanish!"?

If you take care of 1 and 2 and 3, and routinely follow through with 4, then the problem isn't a problem anymore.

If illegals want to come over and shop? Hell, cool! Do that! But if they want to work, leech, or commit crimes... no. Just, no.

The thing that all of the above have in common is that they affect everyone equally. I don't get magically profiled because I speak Spanish. Everyone presents their papers when getting a job or benefits. This would also snare all the other myriad illegals floating around, or at least make there be a way better chance of it.

But that wouldn't really bring about Real ID and e-verify as rapidly, so no one cares :(

[libertygrl]

What is "back in the day"? What year are you talking about?

For most of history we had an open door immigration policy, especially if you were lucky enough to be coming from western Europe. Chinese and other disfavored immigrants had some nasty acts put in their way to block free immigration.

From Mexico, people crossed the border all the time and most paid no attention.

On a side note, is there a youtube of the news report only that is featured in the OP youtube?

Open door immigration policy yes - LEGAL and when workers were needed. I'm a 3rd generation Italian American and my grandparents came here LEGALLY. They had to have a sponsor in this country and the right documentation. They had to go through a physical exam to make sure they weren't bringing in any diseases. They had to learn to speak the English language. Nothing was ever handed to them and they didn't make any special demands on their new government. They were very proud to become Americans by immersing themselves in the culture, while maintaining their Italian traditions at home.

What I was referring to was ILLEGAL Immigration. I guess when I said back in the day I meant when the laws were actually being enforced. I'm guessing the 1970's and back? Not sure...

Hope that answers your question.

[tpreitzel]

The rest of my family's English is not "conversational" or perfect by any stretch, but they're American citizens.

Most Native speakers' English is beyond suspect.

The border patrol's English is likely going to be even worse than the average Native speaker's, making them fairly unfit to judge much of anything.

There are a whole lot of accents all around the USA, and there are a lot of foreigners who are here illegally and speak terrific English.

This generally seems like a big, massive ball of fail, and it absolutely doesn't address the actual gripes people have with illegals.

Overall, I disagree. The border patrol is quite adept at identifying suspicious people. One of the first steps in the process is starting a brief conversation. Although accents may play a role, simple conversational English will identify most foreigners. Quantify a "lot of foreigners who are here illegally and speak terrific English". Lastly, most of our problem apparently lies on the southern border with Mexico. Overall, simple conversational English will likely catch most illegals without the need for documents.

[low preference guy]

tpreitzel, a lot of what you said is true, but you omitted the fact that there are legal immigrants that have an spanish accent, so you still need the documents.


simple conversational English will likely catch most illegals without the need for documents.

[tpreitzel]

What I was referring to was ILLEGAL Immigration. I guess when I said back in the day I meant when the laws were actually being enforced. I'm guessing the 1970's and back? Not sure...



No, the illegal immigration problem started in earnest with LBJ's administration, ~ 1965.

[tpreitzel]

tpreitzel, a lot of what you said is true, but you omitted the fact that there are legal immigrants that have an spanish accent, so you still need the documents.

After nearly 4 decades of minimal enforcement of the borders, I agree somewhat as the percentage of immigrants of Spanish, i.e. primarily Mexican, descent has skyrocketed as a result of the lack of enforcement (and increased entitlements) which is WHOLE point anyway for failure to enforce the borders for 4 decades. I'm not really concerned about the Spanish accent as much as being able to hold conversational English. :) Again, the border patrol is very, very adept at catching suspicious people with simple conversational English. Will the border patrol catch ALL illegal invaders? Of course, not. Local police departments certainly won't be nearly as adept at catching illegal invaders as the border patrol.

[low preference guy]

After nearly 4 decades of minimal enforcement of the borders, I agree somewhat as the percentage of immigrants of Spanish, i.e. primarily Mexican, descent has skyrocketed as a result of the lack of enforcement... which is WHOLE point anyway for failure to enforce the borders for 4 decades. I'm not really concerned about the Spanish accent as much as being able to hold conversational English. :)

My point was that you still need to ask for documents.

[fedup100]

http://evanstonconservative.blogspot.com/2010/04/my-research-on-illegal-criminal-aliens.html

Illegal criminal Aliens and the cost to the American citizen

cost to the US

These figures are eyepopping. I've collected various articles over the last year. This is why our US economy is disintegrating and pushing us into another great depression:

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year by state governments.
Verify at: http://tinyurl.com/zob77


2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.Verify at: http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.HTML


3. $2..5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.HTML


4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English! Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt....0.HTML


5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies. Verify at http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.HTML


6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens. Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/%20TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.HTML


7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens. Verify at: http://transcripts.CNN.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.HTML


8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
Verify at: http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.HTML


9. $200 Billion dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSC%20RI%20PTS/0604/01/ldt.01.HTML


10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt....01.HTML


11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the US from the Southern border. Verify at: Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht


12. The National Policy Institute, estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.'
Verify at: http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/PDF/deportation.PDF


13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances to their countries of origin.
Verify at: http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm


14. 'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One million sex crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States. . .' Verify at: http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml http://ww%20w.drdsk.com/articleshtml


The total cost is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR AND IF YOU'RE LIKE ME HAVING TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING THIS AMOUNT OF MONEY; IT IS $338,300,000,000.00 WHICH WOULD BE ENOUGH TO STIMULATE THE ECONOMY FOR THE CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY. Are we THAT stupid? YES, FOR LETTING THOSE IN THE U.S. CONGRESS GET AWAY WITH LETTING THIS HAPPEN YEAR AFTER YEAR!!!!! If this doesn't bother you then just delete the message. If, on the other hand, it does raise the hair on the back of your neck, I hope you forward it to every legal resident in the United States.
Posted by Gary Karlin at 6:41 AM
Labels: cost to US citizens, illegal criminal aliens

[tpreitzel]

My point was that you still need to ask for documents.

Rarely ... not nearly as frequently as you seem to imply.

[speciallyblend]

My point was that you still need to ask for documents.

papers please but i am an american. well they can figure that out after we arrest you!! tell it to the judge. if you even get to that point!!

YouTube - Welcome to Arizona, Home of Papers Please! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ykc8Q3K0vhM)

[fedup100]

http://www.wvwnews.net/images/teaser/mestizo_protest3.jpeg

[low preference guy]

speciallyblend, you just jumped in the discussion and missed the context. just to clarify, i'm opposed to asking people for their papers.

[speciallyblend]

Rarely ... not nearly as frequently as you seem to imply.

so if i ask you for your birth certificate and you do not provide it,yet i think your not american. I am going to detain and arrest you. no matter how many times you scream but i am an american!!!!!! so your ok if it happens a few times as long as it isn't you???

what does an american look like??? it has already happened to american citizens!!

[speciallyblend]

speciallyblend, you just jumped in the discussion and missed the context. just to clarify, i'm opposed to asking people for their papers.

no i was agreeing with you, throwing a lil sarcasm in there;)

[tpreitzel]

so if i ask you for your birth certificate and you do not provide it,yet i think your not american. I am going to detain and arrest you. no matter how many times you scream but i am an american!!!!!! so your ok if it happens a few times as long as it isn't you???

what does an american look like??? it has already happened to american citizens!!

What? :)

I'm simply saying that conversational English as employed by the border patrol will identify the vast majority of illegal immigrants WITHOUT the need for requesting documents regardless of their accent. I haven't even implied much less stated anything resembling your apparent accusation. Instead of this law, Arizona's police departments should adopt some of the techniques, e.g. conversational English, used by the border patrol to identify suspects. If the suspect can't hold a conversation in English, then requesting documents seems more than appropriate, e.g. a passport. ;)

[speciallyblend]

What? :)

I'm simply saying that conversational English as employed by the border patrol will identify the vast majority of illegal immigrants WITHOUT the need for requesting documents regardless of their accent. I haven't even implied much less stated anything resembling your apparent accusation. Instead of this law, Arizona's police departments should adopt some of the techniques, e.g. conversational English, used by the border patrol to identify suspects. If the suspects can't hold a conversation in English or answer some basic questions, then requesting documents seems more than appropriate, e.g. a passport. ;)

I am just saying in general this law is bad! i was speaking in general on the whole bill!! imagine ourselves trying to prove we are american and our ids are not good enough for "them"and how we answer questions! slippery slope.

[tpreitzel]

I am just saying in general this law is bad!

I would agree that it's an unnecessary step down a slippery slope, but I can also understand the desperate rationale which gave it life. IF LE were allowed to minimally profile with conversational English, the need for this law would be nearly nonexistent IMO.

[MelissaWV]

I would agree that it's an unnecessary step down a slippery slope, but I can also understand the desperate rationale which gave it life. IF LE were allowed to minimally profile with conversational English, the need for this law would be nearly nonexistent IMO.

This thread is obvious proof that so many people would fail, they may as well ask for papers from everyone.

I was unaware that, upon becoming a US citizen, one's accent goes away. My family was entirely born as citizens, but their first language is Spanish.

Ah just what I've always wanted... some border patrol idiot telling people "You don't speak English good."

[MelissaWV]

Overall, I disagree. The border patrol is quite adept at identifying suspicious people. One of the first steps in the process is starting a brief conversation. Although accents may play a role, simple conversational English will identify most foreigners. Quantify a "lot of foreigners who are here illegally and speak terrific English". Lastly, most of our problem apparently lies on the southern border with Mexico. Overall, simple conversational English will likely catch most illegals without the need for documents.

All of the people from our Juarez manufacturing plant are required to speak excellent English. They're all Mexican citizens. There are a lot of other manufacturing plants in Mexico that have similar requirements. It's good to know we'll be letting those folks go on though, but stopping every Puerto Rican whose English isn't perfect :rolleyes:

[tpreitzel]

This thread is obvious proof that so many people would fail, they may as well ask for papers from everyone.

I was unaware that, upon becoming a US citizen, one's accent goes away. My family was entirely born as citizens, but their first language is Spanish.

Ah just what I've always wanted... some border patrol idiot telling people "You don't speak English good."

If by first language, you mean your family can't speak English well enough to hold a simple conversation, your American-born family has its priorities wrong, pure and simple. Your family needs to reevaluate why they continue living in the US if their FIRST language is Spanish and they're incapable of holding a basic conversation in English. Again, again, and again, accents play a minimal role in the ability of the border patrol to identify a potential suspect.

[tpreitzel]

All of the people from our Juarez manufacturing plant are required to speak excellent English. They're all Mexican citizens. There are a lot of other manufacturing plants in Mexico that have similar requirements. It's good to know we'll be letting those folks go on though, but stopping every Puerto Rican whose English isn't perfect :rolleyes:

Here we go again. Quantify "lot" in terms of percentage of the illegal population in the US. ;)

[MelissaWV]

If by first language, you mean your family can't speak English well enough to hold a simple conversation, your American-born family has its priorities wrong, pure and simple. Your family needs to reevaluate why they continue living in the US if their FIRST language is Spanish and they're incapable of holding a basic conversation in English.

You do realize English is not the primary language in some areas of the US, right? That you can be born a citizen in a commonwealth whose primary language is not English? They were born in the US. They have accents, they mix up words, they don't always get the right vocabulary down for what they mean to say. I suppose that, in their 60s, they should better their English skills in order to avoid being "papers please"d simply for standing somewhere, and carted off because they "don't speak English good."


People born in American Samoa — including those born on Swains Island — are American nationals, but are not American citizens unless one of their parents is a U.S. citizen. As U.S. nationals, American Samoans may not vote in U.S. presidential elections. However, American Samoans are entitled to free and unrestricted entry into the United States.

Official language(s) English, Samoan


"Puerto Ricans were collectively made U.S. citizens" via the Jones Act. The same Act also provided for a popularly elected Senate to complete a bicameral Legislative Assembly, a bill of rights and authorized the election of a Resident Commissioner to a four year term. As a result of their new U.S. citizenship, many Puerto Ricans were drafted into World War I and all subsequent wars with U.S. participation in which a national military draft was in effect.

Official language(s) Spanish and English

[MelissaWV]

Here we go again. Quantify "lot" in terms of percentage of the illegal population in the US. ;)

Quantify how many legal citizens being stopped and asked to produce evidence they are NOT criminals is okay, and how many slipping past because they can hold a conversation, is a good amount for you?

I thought the point was to stop illegals from leeching, not simply decide that people who can't speak properly are worth detaining.

I hope none of them are deaf/mute ... that would sound REALLY suspicious.

[pcosmar]

I don't carry my Birth Certificate with me. I have had to get it replaced over the years and it is a real PITA.
Paper does not survive well in my wallet. In fact very little survives being in close contact with me.
I don't wear watches, I have destroyed many over the years.
Real good boots last a year, (most are destroyed in months.)
Jeans=shreds.

the only requirement should be to state my name. Period
I am an American. I don't have to prove anything to anyone.


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[tpreitzel]

You do realize English is not the primary language in some areas of the US, right? That you can be born a citizen in a commonwealth whose primary language is not English? They were born in the US. They have accents, they mix up words, they don't always get the right vocabulary down for what they mean to say. I suppose that, in their 60s, they should better their English skills in order to avoid being "papers please"d simply for standing somewhere, and carted off because they "don't speak English good."


My family was entirely born as citizens, but their first language is Spanish.

If your words were true, your family has its priorities wrong if they were born in the US, speak Spanish as their FIRST language, and are incapable of holding a basic conversation in English .... especially after 60 years. ;)

[MelissaWV]

I don't carry my Birth Certificate with me. I have had to get it replaced over the years and it is a real PITA.
Paper does not survive well in my wallet. In fact very little survives being in close contact with me.
I don't wear watches, I have destroyed many over the years.
Real good boots last a year, (most are destroyed in months.)
Jeans=shreds.

the only requirement should be to state my name. Period
I am an American. I don't have to prove anything to anyone.

Birth certificate's not good enough and requiring it too often apparently opens loopholes for "identify theft," which is why birth certificates have to have "security features" in them.


Native Puerto Ricans living outside the island territory are reacting with surprise and confusion after learning their birth certificates will become no good this summer.

A law enacted by Puerto Rico in December mainly to combat identity theft invalidates as of July 1 all previously issued Puerto Rican birth certificates. That means more than a third of the 4.1 million people of Puerto Rican descent living in the 50 states must arrange to get new certificates.

The change catches many unaware.

Julissa Flores, 33, of Orlando, Fla., said she knew nothing about Puerto Rico's law.

"I was planning a trip and now I don't know," she said. "Do I need to go get a passport? If my birth certificate is invalid, am I stuck here?"

People born in Puerto Rico, a U.S. commonwealth, are U.S. citizens at birth. Anyone using a stolen Puerto Rico birth certificate could enter and move about the U.S. more easily, which could also pose security problems.

Puerto Rico's legislature passed the law after raids last March broke up a criminal ring that had stolen thousands of birth certificates and other identifying documents from several different schools in Puerto Rico.

Puerto Ricans on average get about 20 copies of their birth certificates over their lifetimes, said Kenneth McClintock Hernandez, the commonwealth's secretary of state.

This is because they are regularly asked to produce them for such events as enrolling children in school or joining sports leagues. Schools and other institutions have typically kept copies, a practice prohibited under the new law since January, McClintock said.

As much as 40 percent of the identity fraud in the U.S. involves birth certificates from Puerto Rico, McClintock said he was told by the State Department.

"It's a problem that's been growing and as the need in the black market for birth certificates with Hispanic-sounding names grew, the black market value of Puerto Rican birth certificates has gone into the $5,000 to $10,000 range," McClintock said.

Thus far, there seems to be little effort by the U.S. or Puerto Rican governments to educate the 1.5 million people born in Puerto Rico and living on the mainland about the new law.

Rep. Jose Serrano, D-Bronx, has been getting a steady stream of calls about the law at his district office. Serrano — who must replace his birth certificate, too — said he is trying to provide answers without triggering a panic.

"No one has thought about what effect this could have, if any, on those of us born in Puerto Rico who now reside in the 50 states," Serrano said.

McClintock said a news conference held in Puerto Rico in December did not draw national media attention he hoped would spread the word. He noted there is no deadline for getting a new birth certificate. After July 1, the government will issue a temporary, 15-day certificate for those who need a birth certificate in an emergency.

The State and Homeland Security departments are deciding what to do for passport applicants with invalid birth certificates, State Department spokeswoman Adriana Gallegos said.

For now, Puerto Ricans are learning about the law from each other, news reports and community groups. The information isn't always correct.

Carlos Vargas-Ramos, a researcher at the Center for Puerto Rican Studies at Hunter College in New York, said he found out about the new law through an e-mail from a Latino public policy group.

"You have to be plugged into networks to learn about it," said Vargas-Ramos, whose father and sisters were born on the island.

Conchita Vallecillo, 66, of Fairfax, Va., read about the new law in a Puerto Rico newspaper. She thought her age exempted her. "I didn't think we would be affected, so it's one of those things that you don't pay attention to," said Vallecillo, whose husband and four children also were born in Puerto Rico.

There is no exemption for age. The law only waives the $5 fee for a new birth certificate for people over 60 and for veterans.

Emilio Perez, president of the Puerto Rican Chamber of Commerce of Central Florida, traveled to Puerto Rico to gather his own information on the new law. He planned to post the information on the chamber's Web site to help get information out.

About 47 percent of people of Puerto Rican descent in Florida, or 377,000 people, and 29 percent, or 318,000, in New York — states with the largest Puerto Rican populations — were born on the island.

[MelissaWV]

If your words were true, your family has its priorities wrong if they were born in the US, speak Spanish as their FIRST language, and are incapable of holding a basic conversation in English .... especially after 60 years. ;)

What do you not get about the fact that English is not the offiical language in all places where you are born a citizen?

You appear to have English comprehension problems. Papers, please.

[tpreitzel]

Quantify how many legal citizens being stopped and asked to produce evidence they are NOT criminals is okay, and how many slipping past because they can hold a conversation, is a good amount for you?

Nice deflection. We realize that you're incapable of quantifying a "lot" of illegal immigrants who can speak "terrific" English in any meaningful percentage of the illegal population residing in the US. Frankly, I don't have to quantify anything because I simply want LE to use the basic and common sense ability to profile with conversational English.



I thought the point was to stop illegals from leeching, not simply decide that people who can't speak properly are worth detaining.

I hope none of them are deaf/mute ... that would sound REALLY suspicious.Cute ... not. Personally, any deaf/mute would probably be more than willing to cooperate with LE if stopped. Maybe, there are a lot of deaf/mutes in public just waiting to be profiled, but unable to respond. ;) LOL!

[MelissaWV]

Nice deflection. We realize that you're incapable of quantifying a "lot" of illegal immigrants who can speak "terrific" English in any meaningful percentage of the illegal population residing in the US. Frankly, I don't have to quantify anything because I simply want LE to use the basic and common sense ability to profile with conversational English.

Cute ... not. Personally, any deaf/mute would probably be more than willing to cooperate with LE if stopped. Maybe, there are a lot of deaf/mutes in public just waiting to be profiled, but unable to respond. ;) LOL!

Our Juarez plant employs a few thousand people. Our Roden plant employs a few hundred. Other Juarez plants employ quite a few people, but I don't happen to have those papers on me (quick! deport me back to America!).


Phoenix Mayor: Arizona Immigration Law Puts Seniors, Kids at Risk of Being Arrested

Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon says seniors, kids and out-of-staters should be wary of the Arizona immigration bill signed into law this past week -- warning that it puts them at risk of being arrested.

Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon says seniors, kids and out-of-staters should be wary of the Arizona immigration bill signed into law this past week -- warning that it puts them at risk of being arrested.

The law makes illegal immigration a state crime. It gives police the authority to question people about their immigration status and arrest those who cannot show documentation to establish their legal residency.

Gordon, a staunch opponent of the state law, said that means anyone who doesn't carry an Arizona license -- children under 16, seniors who don't drive and people from out of state -- could be "at risk of being arrested and turned over to (Immigration and Customs Enforcement)."

"It tramples civil rights," Gordon told Fox News on Sunday. "Now everyone has to show and prove that they're a legal resident or citizen."

The mayor of Arizona's largest city is at odds with Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer, who signed the bill Friday and described the legislation as her state's answer to "decades of inaction and misguided policy" in Washington.

It's unclear whether non-state license holders would be as susceptible to arrest as Gordon described.

A "valid Arizona" driver's license is just one of several types of documentation the law says would count as proof of residency.

It's a clusterfuck, and does not address the problems people have with illegals. At all. Neither would what you are proposing. At all.

[tpreitzel]

What do you not get about the fact that English is not the offiical language in all places where you are born a citizen?

You appear to have English comprehension problems. Papers, please.

Since you have nothing of substance to really add to this conversation, I'll simply repeat. Repetition tends to work wonders eventually. If English isn't the official language of someone born in the US and Spanish is the individual's first language, then that individual needs to seriously reevaluate why they continue living in the US IF the individual can't hold a simple conversation in English... especially after 60 years. ;) No, we're not talking about "terrific" English. LOL.

However, YOU do make a case that English SHOULD be the official language of the US. ;)

[pcosmar]

THis is nothing less than a Back Door
Real ID

It has been shouted down over and over again, But keeps coming back in new forms .
They refuse to give up.
:mad:

[tpreitzel]

Our Juarez plant employs a few thousand people. Our Roden plant employs a few hundred. Other Juarez plants employ quite a few people, but I don't happen to have those papers on me (quick! deport me back to America!).



It's a clusterfuck, and does not address the problems people have with illegals. At all. Neither would what you are proposing. At all.

Then, welcome to the US. ;) Wrong. Profiling through conversational English works wonders in the hands of a competent and experienced border patrol agent.

[MelissaWV]

Since you have nothing of substance to really add to this conversation, I'll simply repeat. Repetition tends to work wonders eventually. If English isn't the official language of someone born in the US and Spanish is the individual's first language, then that individual needs to seriously reevaluate why they continue living in the US IF the individual can't hold a simple conversation in English... especially after 60 years. ;) No, we're not talking about "terrific" English. LOL.

However, YOU do make a case that English SHOULD be the official language of the US. ;)

It isn't the official language of a various people born in the US, no. Various native tribes, Puerto Ricans, Samoans... but in your eyes, if they don't speak English they are less of a citizen. You have a lot of people to deport in this very thread.

[MelissaWV]

THis is nothing less than a Back Door
Real ID

It has been shouted down over and over again, But keeps coming back in new forms .
They refuse to give up.
:mad:

If you don't meet the forum standards, though, you're not American enough to have Constitutional rights, pcosmar. Duh.

* * *

tpreitzel:
I was born here, by the way. Again, your English seems to be lacking, as you cannot process basic facts.

[Cowlesy]

Everyone please be respectful of each other. Indirect insults really are not necessarily to debate this topic.

Thanks.

[MelissaWV]

Everyone please be respectful of each other. Indirect insults really are not necessarily to debate this topic.

Thanks.

Foreigner :p

YouTube - Foreigner - Break it up 1982 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m5DIGU10so)

[tpreitzel]

It isn't the official language of a various people born in the US, no. Various native tribes, Puerto Ricans, Samoans... but in your eyes, if they don't speak English they are less of a citizen. You have a lot of people to deport in this very thread.

Oh, brother. More baseless accusations on your part. Really? We have native tribes, Puerto Ricans, and Samoans in our country? Please! ;) Again, if these "native tribes, Puerto Ricans, and Samoans" were BORN in the US, they likely have the ability to not only hold a basic conversation in English, but complex ones as well. Finally, I'd label these "native tribes, Puerto Ricans, and Samoans" born in the US as Americans, not "native tribes, Puerto Ricans, or Samoans".:) Again, those few (percentage) AMERICANS born in the US who can't hold a basic conversation in English should seriously reevaluate WHY they continue living in the US as they're likely to be PROFILED eventually if not embarrassingly asked for their passport. ;)

[speciallyblend]

blimpin

[speciallyblend]

blimpin

[tropicangela]

So, about those sanctuary cities.... and corporations that bring illegals over and employ them only to pick a few off and *allow* the government to deport them for a headline... (see Food, Inc. documentary for footage.) YouTube - Smithfield packing hiring illegal immigrants... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iO6kAdwU9E#t=1m40s)

[dannno]

+1776.

The point he was making was that they let the border open to bring tyranny on the general population through unconstitutional legislation.. legislation that YOU are supporting..

[Chester Copperpot]

If you don't meet the forum standards, though, you're not American enough to have Constitutional rights, pcosmar. Duh.

* * *

tpreitzel:
I was born here, by the way. Again, your English seems to be lacking, as you cannot process basic facts.

Are you one of those people that thinks the constitution only applies to american citizens>?

[MelissaWV]

Are you one of those people that thinks the constitution only applies to american citizens>?

Sarcasm, my dear, but portions of it only do apply to citizens. The trick is that one should assume someone's a citizen until otherwise. Saying "oh well I THOUGHT they weren't a citizen" and using it as an excuse to violate someone's rights is not going to fly far, and won't smell nice when it lands.

Unless, of course, it's written into the law.