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TheEvilDetector
10-10-2007, 05:33 PM
In response to a great article about ron paul on: http://www.insidevandy.com/drupal/node/5160 someone who goes by the name of Tyler Zimmer wrote 2 comments.

Those comments criticise Paul heavily and I was wondering if anyone here could address these criticisms.....

First comment:

"Ron Paul believes that power belongs in the pocketbook, not the polling station. It is his view that democratic government cannot do anything right and therefore shouldn't do anything. He also thinks that every distribution of burdens and benefits that markets produce are just, no matter how egregious or unequal the outcome. He doesn't believe that democratic government should foster social goods like education or guaranteed universal health insurance. He doesn't even think that democracy should be the tool we use to build up infrastructure like roads or foster public spaces like parks.

Saying 'democracy' runs against the grain of everything Paul believes in. Democracy, if it is to mean anything at all, must have something to do with giving power to people and thus weakening the concentrations of power and influence that large corporations and businesses have in market scenarios.

Anarcho-capitalism, roughly Paul's political position, is not a democratic view, but one that gives markets and those who have power in them the ability to rule. This view has roughly sculpted the politics of leaders since Reagan and has also lead to a systematic and consistent increase in inequality and weakening of public amenities. One only needs to look at the California energy crisis, Enron and similar scandals to see what happens when large businesses are freed from the checks of democratic government and allowed to do as they please. Increasing the power of big business and hurting the ability of democracy to limit socially corrosive effects of corporations is not a 'revolution', it is a regression back to a period in history we know now as the "Gilded Age."

College students should be fighting against the encroachment of powerful business interests on our democracy, not cheering it on in the way that Paul is. Paul's answer is to take the umpire out of the game and let the fattest cats have their way without having pesky democratic checks on their pursuits. Maximizing profits for large corporations isn't what our generations of students should be about, maximizing social goods and fostering progressive social change is. If the latter is of any interest, then we would do well to eschew the fossilized and anachronistic politics of a right wing extremist."

Second Comment:

"Preface:

According to most major polls, Ron is pulling either " - " or "1-2%" among Republicans.

As a Congressman, Ron Paul (R-TX) has voted with his party nearly 80% of the time, which places him firmly within the bounds of a "rank-and-file-Republican".

Comment:

I am confused by the relative collegiate popularity of a reactionary who believes we should cut all public spending on education to zero. I say "confusion" because I fail to understand why college students in particular (most of whom attend publicly financed institutions) could possibly consider this guy. I could understand why an 80 year old crippled billionaire with 3 weeks to live might get excited about Ron Paul's legislative checklist, but I fail to see why anyone below the age of 75 or under the uppermost tax brackets has anything to get excited about.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the last time I checked, college students weren't the ones who stand to benefit from a candidate who believes in:

1. Eliminating public institutions of higher learning by privatizing the entire system, stubbornly voting against all measures to increase public funding of universities.
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2. Destroying free public education at all levels K-12 and beyond (i.e. abolish the dept. of education, arguing that that all education should be a privately-owned venture, advocating home-schooling, opposing all public spending initiatives, eroding funding by eliminating taxes on the wealthy)
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3. Staunchly opposing Universal Health Care and in favor of further privatizing an already corrupt corporate system that rakes in billions in profits for its ownership while close to 50 million Americans are uninsured and those that are insured get screwed, dropped or drowned in extremely costly co-pays and premiums.
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4. Worsening the student debt crisis by further gutting (I say 'further gutting' because Bush and his GOP congress made putative cuts in 2005) programs like Pell Grants and Stafford Loans (put in place by LBJ) and giving even more of the student loan system over to a (corrupt, as we've seen from recent revelations in NY) billion-dollar private racket. Students in France and the UK strike over tuition increases and fight for grants and the abolition of loans... Ron Paul thinks we should slash all of it and only have private lenders who generate profits from college students' inability to afford high-priced tuition.
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5. Destroying the environment: in the 109th Congress alone, he voted to allow drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, to shield oil companies from MTBE contamination lawsuits, against increasing gas mileage standards, to allow new offshore drilling, and to stop making oil companies pay royalties to the government for drilling in the Gulf of Mexico.
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6. Destroying the progressive income tax (reverting to the regressive system in place during the Gilded Age), letting the rich get out of paying their fair share and depleting funding for social goods. On Ron Paul’s view, it’s ‘communistic and against liberty’ for Bill Gates to be expected to pay higher taxes than working-class single mothers.
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7. Supporting right-wing anti-choice laws and stripping women of reproductive rights.
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8. Opposing Church-State Separation: From keeping "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance to co-sponsoring the school prayer amendment to keeping the Ten Commandments on a courthouse lawn, this "strict constitutionalist" isn't a big fan of the Constitutionally-mandated separation of church and state. “Separation of Church and State”, on his view, is something that left-liberals simply made up from whole cloth.
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9. Supports the repeal of public programming like NPR, PBS and the National Endowment for the Arts and Humanities.
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10. Supporting right-wing anti-immigration legislation. Opposes building a wall, but only because that would require ‘big government’, otherwise presumably erecting a wall would be a great idea for this xenophobic nativist.
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11. Opposing worker's rights and virulently against workers organizing themselves against exploitative employers (has consistently voted against Employee Free Choice Act.)
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12. Fervently opposes raising the minimum wage, in favor of abolishing the minimum wage altogether (a standard libertarian belief.) Let me repeat this one more time: Ron Paul argues that we should abolish the minimum wage altogether.
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13. Repealing Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, and every other social program put in place since the New Deal.
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14. etc, etc, etc...

Yes, Ron Paul is against the Iraq War, and so are Pat Buchanan and David Duke. The fact that he is against the Iraq war alone isn’t enough to actually make the guy worth a second look. He's also not the only person running for president who is advocating withdrawal (Kucinich (D) and Gravel (D), both of whom also have no chance of receiving a nomination, both advocate immediate withdrawal.) His non-interventionist position on Iraq cannot be a compelling reason to suspend judgment about the lunacy of his other positions.

"But he's consistent throughout his whole career!" His supporters will claim. Yes, I agree, but since when is being consistently wrong about everything that matters a good thing?"

I believe it is not too hard to defend Paul on these points. Anyone feeling up to the challenge?

spacebetween
10-10-2007, 05:37 PM
LOL

Clearly those boys do not understand the role of the FEDERAL government or any of Ron Paul's positions!!

For example:

Elimination of Dept. of Education != Elimination of Education.

Last I checked, my university is controlled by the state. My high school received instruction and funding from the state. So did my middle school and elementary school.

Second of all, our Federal government is a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC

NOTTTTTTT
AAAAAAAA
DEMOCRACYYYYYYYYY

How hard is it for people to understand that? Who was it that once said, "Democracy is the tyranny of the majority?" Thomas Jefferson? Anyway... it's true.

DaronWestbrooke
10-10-2007, 05:39 PM
Just point out that 'free business' is a myth. All large businesses are just part of the bigger, military/industrial complex. We are essentially their slaves. None of us are really free to start our own business and compete.

murrayrothbard
10-10-2007, 05:41 PM
don't waste your time

pcosmar
10-10-2007, 05:49 PM
I am afraid I cannot answer him politely, due to the Fact that he pulled his talking points out of his Ass.
We are a Republic=His first point of confusion.
Tax is theft, as in Armed Robbery.
He wants a free ride at someone else's expense.

Severius
10-10-2007, 06:04 PM
Not only are we a Republic and not a Democracy, no one has the right to go against the Constitution. It doesn't matter if 100% of the population thinks (for instance) that guns are bad and should be banned, the Constitution forbids Federal laws encroaching the right to keep and bear arms. If 100% of the population disagrees with the Constitution you must:

A) Amend the Constitution
B) Scrap the Constitution, and hold a Constitutional Convention to write a new constitution

You can't just ignore it. Majority rule is tyranny, that is why we are a REPUBLIC. If one person disagrees with the entirety of the nation, the nation has no right to silence him or force upon him any opinion or arbitrary rule.

mconder
10-10-2007, 07:02 PM
1. Eliminating public institutions of higher learning by privatizing the entire system, stubbornly voting against all measures to increase public funding of universities.

I am married with 4 children making 80K a year. It barely seems enough to get by on where I live. Do you think someone like me, who works for a living could get any assistance for continued education? Why the hell should I pay for some lazy a-hole kid to get a free education. There are plenty of people back in the day who worked their way through college, Ron Paul included. So why don't you grow a freaking conscience and understand that I work hard to take care of my family. I don't know how I will send my own kids to school let alone someone else's. I'll make you a deal...you let me keep whatever portion I pay in taxes for other people's education and I will not burden you with my family's education

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2. Destroying free public education at all levels K-12 and beyond (i.e. abolish the dept. of education, arguing that that all education should be a privately-owned venture, advocating home-schooling, opposing all public spending initiatives, eroding funding by eliminating taxes on the wealthy)

See above. In addition to the above answer I would add that all the crazy conflicts that come up between school and religion or school and sexual preference would not exist without public funding of eduction. Why you people think I should pay to put someone else's kid though the public re-eduction camps to be taught things I don't agree with is beyond me.
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3. Staunchly opposing Universal Health Care and in favor of further privatizing an already corrupt corporate system that rakes in billions in profits for its ownership while close to 50 million Americans are uninsured and those that are insured get screwed, dropped or drowned in extremely costly co-pays and premiums.

Pay for your own health care. My cousin has worked in the emergency room of a hospital for 10 years and he says most the people have conditions they have brought on themselves. Why should I pay for your drug habit? If you need help, ask your family or church to pay for it. If you don't have a church or family then take up a collection cup and dance a jig on the street to raise money...I don't care.

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4. Worsening the student debt crisis by further gutting (I say 'further gutting' because Bush and his GOP congress made putative cuts in 2005) programs like Pell Grants and Stafford Loans (put in place by LBJ) and giving even more of the student loan system over to a (corrupt, as we've seen from recent revelations in NY) billion-dollar private racket. Students in France and the UK strike over tuition increases and fight for grants and the abolition of loans... Ron Paul thinks we should slash all of it and only have private lenders who generate profits from college students' inability to afford high-priced tuition.

If you can find someone who thinks your education is a good investment and that you are a low risk loan, then by all means, get a loan for school. If there were less government regulation in higher education and what it means to be accredited, plus many other government imposed factors, schooling would be cheaper anyhow...same goes for health care.

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5. Destroying the environment: in the 109th Congress alone, he voted to allow drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, to shield oil companies from MTBE contamination lawsuits, against increasing gas mileage standards, to allow new offshore drilling, and to stop making oil companies pay royalties to the government for drilling in the Gulf of Mexico.

That's awesome...the power of the market at work is a wonderful thing. Oil should be allowed to reach it's natural market value and maybe the it would be higher than it is right now and the market would demand newer, cheaper renewable fuels. People will use whatever fuel makes sense. When oil becomes prohibitive , then another market choice will take it's place.

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6. Destroying the progressive income tax (reverting to the regressive system in place during the Gilded Age), letting the rich get out of paying their fair share and depleting funding for social goods. On Ron Paul’s view, it’s ‘communistic and against liberty’ for Bill Gates to be expected to pay higher taxes than working-class single mothers.

Why should the rich pay a greater share of the tax burden? Do you believe it is ok to steal from the rich and give to the poor? Where you aware that a progressive income tax is part of Karl Marx's blueprint for a communist worker's paradise? The fact is the rich who don't receive handouts and favors from the federal government contribute more to your well being than any federal program ever could and your a moron if you don't see that.
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7. Supporting right-wing anti-choice laws and stripping women of reproductive rights.

If a drunk driver hits a pregnant woman and kills the unborn person, that person can be held criminally and civilly liable. Ron Paul's biggest complaint is the inconsistency in the law for which he would allow states to figure the issues out.

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8. Opposing Church-State Separation: From keeping "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance to co-sponsoring the school prayer amendment to keeping the Ten Commandments on a courthouse lawn, this "strict constitutionalist" isn't a big fan of the Constitutionally-mandated separation of church and state. “Separation of Church and State”, on his view, is something that left-liberals simply made up from whole cloth.

The separation of church and state is not mentioned anywhere in the constitution you idiot. It was originally mentioned in a letter Jefferson wrote and it's meaning was that there should be no state sponsored religion. Jefferson participated any many displays of religious belief in his public career. If he was so concerned about it pray in the public sphere, why did he not speak out against the praying in Independence hall when he and all the founders where on their knees in supplication to God as to what form of Government they would form.
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9. Supports the repeal of public programming like NPR, PBS and the National Endowment for the Arts and Humanities.

Do you think art would not exist without public funding, or is it just the stuff that you consider art your concerned about? Is there any reason to believe PBS could not survive on advertisement and donation. They take in significant donations and I believe they have some worthy programming some of the time. If people want PBS, it will survive just fine without money from the people who don't like it's programming.

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10. Supporting right-wing anti-immigration legislation. Opposes building a wall, but only because that would require ‘big government’, otherwise presumably erecting a wall would be a great idea for this xenophobic nativist.

Ron has stated that he would do just fine without the wall ALL things being equal. If immigrants were denied ALL benefits (including citizenship and voting rights that come with it) I believe Ron's position is that they should be able to freely come and go.

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11. Opposing worker's rights and virulently against workers organizing themselves against exploitative employers (has consistently voted against Employee Free Choice Act.)

Once again, your either an idiot or have very bad listening skills. Ron Paul fully supports people organizing into Unions. He just believes the government should not regulate unions or make them compulsory, etc.

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12. Fervently opposes raising the minimum wage, in favor of abolishing the minimum wage altogether (a standard libertarian belief.) Let me repeat this one more time: Ron Paul argues that we should abolish the minimum wage altogether.

Why should someone get paid more than they are worth.

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13. Repealing Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, and every other social program put in place since the New Deal.

Ron Paul would not simply repeal these programs that people have become slaves to. He would phase them out, keeping the promises made to those who promises were given.

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14. etc, etc, etc....

Keep your filthy thieving hands to yourself. You have no right to my life and what I can produce with it...etc, etc, etc...