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Bruno
04-23-2010, 12:38 PM
What is this "basic notion of fairness" he is referring to? What is fair?


ht tp://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/23/obama.immigration/index.html?hpt=T1

Washington (CNN) -- President Obama on Friday criticized a controversial new immigration bill in Arizona, calling it "misguided."

"Our failure to act responsible at the federal level will only open the door to irresponsibility by others. That includes, for example, the recent efforts in Arizona, which threaten to undermine basic notions of fairness that we cherish as Americans, as well as the trust between police and their communities that is so crucial to keeping us safe," the president said at a naturalization ceremony for 24 members of the military.

"In fact, I've instructed members of my administration to closely monitor the situation and examine the civil rights and other implications of this legislation. But if we continue to fail to act at the federal level, we will continue to see misguided efforts opening up around the country."

What would Arizona's immigration bill do?

Obama added, "As a nation, as a people, we can choose a different future, a future that keeps faith with our history, with our heritage, and with the hope that America has always inspired in the hearts of people all over the world."

The bill would require immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and require police to question people if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally. It also targets those who hire illegal immigrant day laborers or knowingly transport them.

Currently, officers can check someone's immigration status if the person is suspected in another crime.

Read the full text of Arizona Senate Bill 1070 (PDF)

Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer, a Republican, is nearing a Saturday deadline to decide what action she may take on the bill, considered to be among the toughest immigration measures in the nation.

Critics argue the new law would foster racial profiling, saying most police officers don't have enough training to look past race while investigating a person's legal status.

iReport: Protesters at the Arizona Capitol

Some Latino members of Congress have urged Brewer to veto the bill, arguing that it unconstitutionally authorizes discrimination.

Supporters said the measure is needed to fill a void left by the federal government's failure to enforce immigration laws. Its leading sponsor, state Sen. Russell Pearce, said, "Illegal is not a race, it's a crime."

Pearce, a Republican, said, "We're going to take the handcuffs off of law enforcement. We're going to put them on the bad guy."

FrankRep
04-23-2010, 01:40 PM
The Arizona legislature moved another step closer to giving the state one of the toughest anti-illegal immigration laws in the county on April 19, as the state senate passed Senate Bill 1070 by a 17-11 vote. Governor Jan Brewer has five days in which to sign the bill into law. by Warren Mass


Arizona Legislature Passes Tough Illegal Immigration Bill (http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/immigration/3361-arizona-legislature-passes-tough-illegal-immigration-bill)


Warren Mass | The New American (http://www.thenewamerican.com/)
Tuesday, 20 April 2010

RM918
04-23-2010, 01:44 PM
My thing is, I'm sympathetic to the immigration cause more than I used to be, but I absolutely hate these people for bringing up the race card constantly as their only freaking defense.

tangent4ronpaul
04-23-2010, 01:56 PM
Of course Obama slamming the bill wouldn't have anything to do with the part about having to show his original birth certificate to get on the ballot.

Isn't AZ the state where 95% of the prison population are illegal emigrants and where kidnapping for ransom and murders have skyrocketed, due to that same population?

-t

Bruno
04-23-2010, 03:05 PM
Washington (CNN) -- Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer signed a state bill Friday that requires police to determine whether a person is in the United States legally, which critics say will foster racial profiling and discrimination but supporters say will crack down on illegal immigration.

The Republican governor also issued an executive order that would require additional training for local officers on how to implement the law without engaging in racial profiling.

Earlier in the day, President Obama criticized the bill, calling it "misguided."

specsaregood
04-23-2010, 03:10 PM
Washington (CNN) -- President Obama on Friday criticized a controversial new immigration bill in Arizona, calling it "misguided."

"Our failure to act responsible at the federal level will only open the door to irresponsibility by others. That includes, for example, the recent efforts in Arizona, which threaten to undermine basic notions of fairness that we cherish as Americans, as well as the trust between police and their communities that is so crucial to keeping us safe," the president said at a naturalization ceremony for 24 members of the military.

"In fact, I've instructed members of my administration to closely monitor the situation and examine the civil rights and other implications of this legislation. But if we continue to fail to act at the federal level, we will continue to see misguided efforts opening up around the country."

So when asked what Obama is gonna do to "act responsible at the federal level" to prevent irresponsibility, what did he answer?
I would guess: "nothing".

Paulfan05
04-23-2010, 03:11 PM
It just sounds a little nazi ish, cops asking people for papers and all...

TCE
04-23-2010, 03:15 PM
And the section in the Constitution that allows Obama to have a say in state legislatures is where?

Bruno
04-23-2010, 03:20 PM
It just sounds a little nazi ish, cops asking people for papers and all...

"Ihre Papiere, bitte!!"

libertygrl
04-23-2010, 03:33 PM
It just sounds a little nazi ish, cops asking people for papers and all...

The Judge was on Cavuto a little while ago and said the bill is unconstitutional and that the Gov. of AZ is going to bankrupt her state by all the lawsuits that are going to come her way whenever they pull someone over.

I didn't see the specifics of this bill, but I was in agreement for taking a tough stance on illegal immigration because I'm beyond fed up with no one doing anything about it for so long! However, I do trust the Judge and have to side on the constitution. So what then, is the solution to this mess??? It seems that all the enforcement laws are only geared toward American citizens and not those who come into this country illegally. I pass about 75 illegal immigrant workers standing along a street corner on my way to the chiropractor every week, and have seen police cars go by without hesitation. Yet, if that were a group of Americans, we'd all be fined or arrested. :mad:

Depressed Liberator
04-23-2010, 03:36 PM
And the section in the Constitution that allows Obama to have a say in state legislatures is where?

Anyone can have an opinion on state legislature. He cannot actually do anything. I do agree with people who say that this is a shitty law though.

MsDoodahs
04-23-2010, 03:37 PM
Where is BO's concern for FAIRNESS to Americans?

(And I'm pretty much for open borders - AFTER the welfare state is demolished. Until then, we can't afford it.)

What did BO say about the rancher from AZ that was murdered (by illegals so I read, may not have been, I don't know) at the end of March?

Did he say ANYTHING about it?

Did he call the family and express his condolences?

TCE
04-23-2010, 03:44 PM
Anyone can have an opinion on state legislature. He cannot actually do anything. I do agree with people who say that this is a shitty law though.

He said "I will keep a close eye" on it. That is implying that he is preparing to do something if it passes both houses and is signed into law. He has no authority to do that. I suspect he will throw Eric Holder at Arizona if that happens.

low preference guy
04-23-2010, 04:01 PM
Where is BO's concern for FAIRNESS to Americans?

(And I'm pretty much for open borders - AFTER the welfare state is demolished. Until then, we can't afford it.)

What did BO say about the rancher from AZ that was murdered (by illegals so I read, may not have been, I don't know) at the end of March?

Did he say ANYTHING about it?

Did he call the family and express his condolences?

Let's have open borders now and have all the immigrants in the welfare state. That will bankrupt the program in a month.

silus
04-23-2010, 04:04 PM
I prefer a different title...

Obama DDTs Arizona immigration bill

Paulfan05
04-23-2010, 04:08 PM
You fix this problem by making sure they dont get hired or other services, if they have no reason to be here they will leave, mostly

Sentient Void
04-23-2010, 04:14 PM
This AZ bill is unconstitutional and is most certainly going to result in numerous violations of civil liberties.

If you wanna stop or at least significantly slow down illegal immigration, and you wanna cut costs across the board (NOT raise them) - get rid of the welfare state.

Illegal immigration will then become virtually a non-issue. As will other numerous abuses of the system.

tangent4ronpaul
04-23-2010, 04:19 PM
The Judge was on Cavuto a little while ago and said the bill is unconstitutional and that the Gov. of AZ is going to bankrupt her state by all the lawsuits that are going to come her way whenever they pull someone over.

I didn't see the specifics of this bill, but I was in agreement for taking a tough stance on illegal immigration because I'm beyond fed up with no one doing anything about it for so long! However, I do trust the Judge and have to side on the constitution. So what then, is the solution to this mess??? It seems that all the enforcement laws are only geared toward American citizens and not those who come into this country illegally. I pass about 75 illegal immigrant workers standing along a street corner on my way to the chiropractor every week, and have seen police cars go by without hesitation. Yet, if that were a group of Americans, we'd all be fined or arrested. :mad:

I'm trying to wrap my head around this one. I also trust the Judge, and the Constitution trumps state law - but there are laws out there that say a cop can demand your ID. I guess that only applies if you are a minority and possibly breaking the law by being in the country illegally. There is the 4th amendment stating a person shal be secure in their papers and free from unreasonable search. Does being asked for your ID qualify? Trying to think of some other part of the Constitution or BoR that would bar this. Obama mentioned civil rights violations - that only seems to apply if you are not a Caucasian.... So what part of the Constitution is he referring to?

-t

Sarge
04-23-2010, 04:48 PM
"Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer officially signed S.B.1070 into law this afternoon. The bill is the nation's toughest immigration enforcement bill, making it a crime in Arizona to be in the country illegally and cracking down on the hiring of day laborers and the transportation of illegal aliens."

DAFTEK
04-23-2010, 04:54 PM
(!)

Sarge
04-23-2010, 05:24 PM
Sorry Bruno,

I didn't catch that you posted the signing first.

As for numbers living here illegally. "It also shares a border with Mexico and has an estimated 460,000 residents living there illegally."

Yes, it is very costly to the State. And the Federal Government doesn't live up to their end on reimbursement to AZ for having the burden of all the jail costs. Hospital costs for care and on and on.

Wow BO has two things now he doesn't like with AZ. Why didn't DC do something about the border problem years ago. AZ is fed up and broke. No Money, No Illegals.

It isn't like we have not been telling them non stop they need to do something. Janet N. should be well aware of how mad she was when she was the Gov. How quick she forgets.

MelissaWV
04-23-2010, 05:48 PM
I'm trying to wrap my head around this one. I also trust the Judge, and the Constitution trumps state law - but there are laws out there that say a cop can demand your ID. I guess that only applies if you are a minority and possibly breaking the law by being in the country illegally. There is the 4th amendment stating a person shal be secure in their papers and free from unreasonable search. Does being asked for your ID qualify? Trying to think of some other part of the Constitution or BoR that would bar this. Obama mentioned civil rights violations - that only seems to apply if you are not a Caucasian.... So what part of the Constitution is he referring to?

-t

The trouble with this bill in particular is that you can't demand someone's ID unless there is reason to believe the person is engaged in a crime. To use examples from earlier in the thread, seeing 100 people gathered around outside of Home Depot seeking work as day laborers would qualify, since they are loitering and (but the cops shouldn't admit this part) most of the day laborers hanging around outside of hardware stores are of dubious immigration status.

Now, if I'm just walking down the street speaking Spanish to someone, is that probable cause to think I am here illegally? Will the police officer make up some bogus "crime" he thinks I'm guilty of in order to "papers please" me? What if I don't happen to have my identification on me? I actually don't have it on me a portion of the time. Will I be presumed to be a likely illegal?

Will people other than "probable Hispanics" be treated this way? There are illegal Asians, after all, though not in such huge numbers in that area as illegal Mexicans.

There are a lot of question marks surrounding this bill for sure.

I think the question of citizenship should be raised when it comes to procuring services or employment, not just when someone's hanging out. I really don't think a lot of people would be angry at Mexican citizens gathering on US soil... and paying money into the economy. The trouble is when those same Mexican citizens (because that is what they are) are receiving benefits, hospital care, and employment.

tpreitzel
04-23-2010, 05:49 PM
Wow BO has two things now he doesn't like with AZ. Why didn't DC do something about the border problem years ago. AZ is fed up and broke. No Money, No Illegals.


Well all know why. Years ago I stated that the real reason illegal immigration was allowed to run rampant was driven by an agenda to create a national ID or some sort. Ban profiling in any form, i.e. does the suspect even speak English?, so some form of ID is required... clever.

BlackTerrel
04-23-2010, 05:51 PM
Isn't AZ the state where 95% of the prison population are illegal emigrants and where kidnapping for ransom and murders have skyrocketed, due to that same population?

Link?

Live_Free_Or_Die
04-23-2010, 06:05 PM
If people in Arizona want immigration quotas they should raise a state militia and secure state borders. I am about the furthest thing from statist but Arizona could uniformly police it's borders with militia as a sovereign state.

Since there are federal immigration quotas Arizona should be petitioning the supreme court and congress for reimbursement because the fed has been negligent enforcing federal law. Arizona could nullify federal taxation until her petition for redress of grievances is answered.

Arizona does not need to legislate discriminatory practices that open her up to suit. It is perfectly ok for private enterprise to discriminate between citizen and alien.
Arizona can legislate standards such as evidence of citizenship to protect the private sector when asserting a citizen preference. Whether it is for purposes of a job, tenancy, etc.

Arizona should deport all undocumented aliens currently being held to Washington D.C. and federal territory.

Sarge
04-23-2010, 06:35 PM
What do you not understand about that the State is broke. A milita to patrol 700 miles of border for three shifts a day and seven days a week? We are short a billion here and there right now. Let alone the expense of helicopters, dogs, horses and vehicles. Do you have any idea how rugged the territory by the border is?

The Fed's have said the border is their territory to cover with the Homeland Security so the need to deal with it.

I agree empty the jails and ship them to DC. That will not help those still here that use the hospitals and schools for free.

Also, it is not about quotas. We are OK with legal immigrants.

As for suits, how about we tender the defense to DC as they have not upheld their duty to defend the Border and in fact tried to defeat the patrol of the Border by trying to make all illegals legal. Say what John McCain?

paulitics
04-23-2010, 08:02 PM
They just need to go after the employers and the welfare offices for their shady practices, and that is all. Illegal immigration would cease overnight with a few big raids that fine the employers out of business. Arizona could spend very little resources, and without violating civil liberties by doing it the ethical way.

Until they do this, nobody is serious about stopping illegal immigration no matter what they say.

TCE
04-23-2010, 10:24 PM
Can't this be a secondary offense? I am against them, but when you're pulled over, it's always "License and Registration." If someone is arrested, isn't that similar? I see how this wouldn't be as effective, but it would be in line with protecting civil liberties.

osan
04-24-2010, 08:45 AM
This AZ bill is unconstitutional and is most certainly going to result in numerous violations of civil liberties.

If you wanna stop or at least significantly slow down illegal immigration, and you wanna cut costs across the board (NOT raise them) - get rid of the welfare state.


This is the obvious answer. It is also the one that will not likely come to fruition in our lifetimes. Barring this, what is the next best solution?

rprprs
04-24-2010, 09:10 AM
This is the obvious answer. It is also the one that will not likely come to fruition in our lifetimes. Barring this, what is the next best solution?

Exactly. And your question was one I was going to pose. Ending the welfare state is undoubtedly the best solution and I wish I had a dollar for every time it's been suggested on these boards. But, being older than most in this forum, I, for one, will never live to see that day. Some measure...with "teeth"...must proceed it. I, also, believe that an unbridled influx of immigrants makes that day ever more unlikely, even without amnesty. I wish I could be the fan of open boarders that some here are, but living as long as I have...and seeing what I've seen...I cannot.

MelissaWV
04-24-2010, 09:47 AM
Exactly. And your question was one I was going to pose. Ending the welfare state is undoubtedly the best solution and I wish I had a dollar for every time it's been suggested on these boards. But, being older than most in this forum, I, for one, will never live to see that day. Some measure...with "teeth"...must proceed it. I, also, believe that an unbridled influx of immigrants makes that day ever more unlikely, even without amnesty. I wish I could be the fan of open boarders that some here are, but living as long as I have...and seeing what I've seen...I cannot.

The measure should have focused on verifying that all people applying for assistance are citizens, and that all persons hired provide verification of citizenship, either through a birth record or via citizenship paperwork, or a valid work visa. All of those are easily verified. A license saying "I live in Arizona" and a checkmark going "oh yeah, sure, I'm a citizen" are far easier to fake.

By saying "anyone suspected of being an illegal can be carded" the bill is, essentially, saying anyone can be carded and interrogated. This should bother *everyone* on the boards, and way more people in the nation than it is. It should bother them on more basic grounds than "oh it's racist!"... it is just another excuse to be pestered for your papers, which you are NOT required to have on you at all times DESPITE these laws beginning to assert the contrary.

fedup100
04-24-2010, 10:34 AM
Look at all the strange reactions to this on this forum. What has happened to the people of this country? You all have a death wish and there is not an ounce of common sense left. Most of you have no ability to sense great harm as it approaches you.

PC correctness and the twisting and turning of the English language coupled with all the totally unconstitutional laws are being stirred into this discussion.

I could sit here and start typing a list of unconstitutional laws federal as well as state for days, not a word about those from Obongo the non american. The patriot act and his kenyan care is a bright red cherry on top of that list.

We are swatting at gnats while we are in an undeclared war and are being invaded, WE ARE BEING INVADED! Wake up! It would appear that we have a nation of brain damaged individuals. Most of you have no allegiance to this country and do not understand that without a country with secure borders, you have lost all control over your ability to be free, prosperous or even live!

Our country has been overthrown from WITHIN and even that gargantuan event has escaped most of you!! The new government wishes to remove ALL your freedoms and in order to do this they have diluted you with all these illegals. The only reason Obongo is so upset over this is he and Nancy plan on legalizing all these people in order to secure his dictatorship.

I say to every state, SECEDE now, tell these federal bastards to go to hell or The worst possible outcome for this country will be on all of us hot and heavy by Christmas. The shhhtf folks and we are walking a thread at this moment in time before it all falls down into a hot bloody situation.

For all of you mealy mouthed non border supporters, get your asses over to Mexico, break in over there and see how a country that does care about it's survival and sovereignty reacts to intruders. Go over and break into Cuba or Russia or China and see how real men protect their own.

Unless all of you wake the hell up and pdq, you will get what you deserve, the loss of not only your country, but your treasure and most likely your lives.

This is your future, READ it it now before it is too late:

http://www.thecorner.org/hist/total/s-russia.htm

MelissaWV
04-24-2010, 11:04 AM
Look at all the strange reactions to this on this forum. What has happened to the people of this country? You all have a death wish and there is not an ounce of common sense left. Most of you have no ability to sense great harm as it approaches you.

PC correctness and the twisting and turning of the English language coupled with all the totally unconstitutional laws are being stirred into this discussion.

I could sit here and start typing a list of unconstitutional laws federal as well as state for days, not a word about those from Obongo the non american. The patriot act and his kenyan care is a bright red cherry on top of that list.

We are swatting at gnats while we are in an undeclared war and are being invaded, WE ARE BEING INVADED! Wake up! It would appear that we have a nation of brain damaged individuals. Most of you have no allegiance to this country and do not understand that without a country with secure borders, you have lost all control over your ability to be free, prosperous or even live!

Our country has been overthrown from WITHIN and even that gargantuan event has escaped most of you!! The new government wishes to remove ALL your freedoms and in order to do this they have diluted you with all these illegals. The only reason Obongo is so upset over this is he and Nancy plan on legalizing all these people in order to secure his dictatorship.

I say to every state, SECEDE now, tell these federal bastards to go to hell or The worst possible outcome for this country will be on all of us hot and heavy by Christmas. The shhhtf folks and we are walking a thread at this moment in time before it all falls down into a hot bloody situation.

For all of you mealy mouthed non border supporters, get your asses over to Mexico, break in over there and see how a country that does care about it's survival and sovereignty reacts to intruders. Go over and break into Cuba or Russia or China and see how real men protect their own.

Unless all of you wake the hell up and pdq, you will get what you deserve, the loss of not only your country, but your treasure and most likely your lives.

This is your future, READ it it now before it is too late:

http://www.thecorner.org/hist/total/s-russia.htm

Okay...

So what does a "potential illegal" look like, to you, in order to merit "papers please" treatment?

MsDoodahs
04-24-2010, 11:16 AM
For whoever it was that asked about the kidnapping rate in AZ....

Phoenix has the second highest rate of kidnappings worldwide, second only to Mexico City.

http://www.latina.com/lifestyle/news-politics/phoenix-arizona-kidnapping-capital-usa

fedup100
04-24-2010, 11:32 AM
Okay...

So what does a "potential illegal" look like, to you, in order to merit "papers please" treatment?

Go take a stroll through Sams Club or walmart and I think the question will answer its self. Don't talk to me about showing papers. When zero's kenya care goes into affect you will show your papers to even work.

Showing of ones papers if over seen by Lenin was a real bad thing, just as it will be by zero and his Marxist thugs.

Showing ones papers over seen by a governor trying her damnest to route out invaders is a good thing.

We are way past anything constitutional people, it was just a GD piece of paper according to the enemies of the state in DC and it is now gone. We are operating at this time on emergency back up power, known as common sense.

MsDoodahs
04-24-2010, 12:12 PM
We are operating at this time on emergency back up power, known as common sense.

Only nowadays, it isn't very commmon...

Carson
04-24-2010, 12:26 PM
The Judge was on Cavuto a little while ago and said the bill is unconstitutional and that the Gov. of AZ is going to bankrupt her state by all the lawsuits that are going to come her way whenever they pull someone over.

I didn't see the specifics of this bill, but I was in agreement for taking a tough stance on illegal immigration because I'm beyond fed up with no one doing anything about it for so long! However, I do trust the Judge and have to side on the constitution. So what then, is the solution to this mess??? It seems that all the enforcement laws are only geared toward American citizens and not those who come into this country illegally. I pass about 75 illegal immigrant workers standing along a street corner on my way to the chiropractor every week, and have seen police cars go by without hesitation. Yet, if that were a group of Americans, we'd all be fined or arrested. :mad:


Maybe you haven't noticed our states are already bankrupt.

Years ago Californian's saw it coming and tried to save the state by passing Proposition 187. A couple of lowlifes got it stalled in the courts saying it was unconstitutional. The real victims and the ones that had their constitutional rights infringed upon were all of the California voters.


We are going to have to clean up our government before we can clean up our streets.

Before we can clean up our government we are going to have to cut them off of using the Federal Reserve and the treasury as their personal piggy bank. No matter how much money people raise to build their country the way they want those in the government can fire up the fiat money presses and print up enough to get their way.

http://photos.imageevent.com/stokeybob/followthemoney/Supersingle640x537.jpg

silentshout
04-24-2010, 01:07 PM
What I don't like about this bill is the fact that the police can pull you over and demand "papers" just because you look "illegal." That is extremely creepy, and I'm completely against that. I am for state's rights though, so go for it. I just won't go to or buy anything from Arizona.

heavenlyboy34
04-24-2010, 01:58 PM
What I don't like about this bill is the fact that the police can pull you over and demand "papers" just because you look "illegal." That is extremely creepy, and I'm completely against that. I am for state's rights though, so go for it. I just won't go to or buy anything from Arizona.


In fairness, that's not what the bill says. The individual has to be already under arrest for the background check to take place. Plus, any actions taken under the bill have to comport to federal standards. You can read the full text of the bill here:

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

I don't see how boycotting AZ products or services will do anything. It's not like the businesses here did it. /facepalm

TCE
04-24-2010, 02:07 PM
Look at all the strange reactions to this on this forum. What has happened to the people of this country? You all have a death wish and there is not an ounce of common sense left. Most of you have no ability to sense great harm as it approaches you.

PC correctness and the twisting and turning of the English language coupled with all the totally unconstitutional laws are being stirred into this discussion.

I could sit here and start typing a list of unconstitutional laws federal as well as state for days, not a word about those from Obongo the non american. The patriot act and his kenyan care is a bright red cherry on top of that list.

We are swatting at gnats while we are in an undeclared war and are being invaded, WE ARE BEING INVADED! Wake up! It would appear that we have a nation of brain damaged individuals. Most of you have no allegiance to this country and do not understand that without a country with secure borders, you have lost all control over your ability to be free, prosperous or even live!

Our country has been overthrown from WITHIN and even that gargantuan event has escaped most of you!! The new government wishes to remove ALL your freedoms and in order to do this they have diluted you with all these illegals. The only reason Obongo is so upset over this is he and Nancy plan on legalizing all these people in order to secure his dictatorship.

I say to every state, SECEDE now, tell these federal bastards to go to hell or The worst possible outcome for this country will be on all of us hot and heavy by Christmas. The shhhtf folks and we are walking a thread at this moment in time before it all falls down into a hot bloody situation.

For all of you mealy mouthed non border supporters, get your asses over to Mexico, break in over there and see how a country that does care about it's survival and sovereignty reacts to intruders. Go over and break into Cuba or Russia or China and see how real men protect their own.

Unless all of you wake the hell up and pdq, you will get what you deserve, the loss of not only your country, but your treasure and most likely your lives.

This is your future, READ it it now before it is too late:

http://www.thecorner.org/hist/total/s-russia.htm

Your post contradicts itself several times. If all states seceded, they would be able to do whatever they wanted. Arizona is doing that right now. The states aren't supposed to be limited by the federal courts. If the people dislike the law, they should rebel against it, move out of Arizona, or vote people in who will repeal it. It's not for Congress or Obama to call down from the heavens getting involved in state affairs.

fedup100
04-24-2010, 02:22 PM
Your post contradicts itself several times. If all states seceded, they would be able to do whatever they wanted. Arizona is doing that right now. The states aren't supposed to be limited by the federal courts. If the people dislike the law, they should rebel against it, move out of Arizona, or vote people in who will repeal it. It's not for Congress or Obama to call down from the heavens getting involved in state affairs.

I did not contradict myself. Arizona is attempting to do what it wants. Obongo and his federal minions will file lawsuits to stop this and I predict they will.

The people are so ignorant they allow this federal incursion on a daily basis. Let me say this again, the Federal courts have NO JURISDICTION in a state matter unless the state is a federal state. Arizona is NOT a federal state. A state supreme court is supreme over the federal supreme court unless they the big supremes are ruling on a federal state matter.

The irs code is very specific as to what is a federal state and federal conclave. We the people have been tricked in this matter for so many years we just allow it and never question it.

Here come the naysayers on federal states. Before you jump on that, go study the subject first.

Obongo screams and so do so many even here that this violates their (the invaders ) civil rights. Does this violate the citizens civil rights?

http:////www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/aklksnmb.jpeg

MelissaWV
04-24-2010, 02:53 PM
In fairness, that's not what the bill says. The individual has to be already under arrest for the background check to take place. Plus, any actions taken under the bill have to comport to federal standards. You can read the full text of the bill here:

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

I don't see how boycotting AZ products or services will do anything. It's not like the businesses here did it. /facepalm


E. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, WITHOUT A WARRANT, MAY ARREST A PERSON IF THE OFFICER HAS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THE PERSON HAS COMMITTED ANY PUBLIC OFFENSE THAT MAKES THE PERSON REMOVABLE FROM THE UNITED STATES.

What is "probable cause" of being an illegal? Not presenting your papers? Ah.

I found this section strange:


A. After December 31, 2007, every employer, after hiring an employee, shall verify the employment eligibility of the employee through the e-verify program

MelissaWV
04-24-2010, 02:55 PM
I did not contradict myself. Arizona is attempting to do what it wants. Obongo and his federal minions will file lawsuits to stop this and I predict they will.

The people are so ignorant they allow this federal incursion on a daily basis. Let me say this again, the Federal courts have NO JURISDICTION in a state matter unless the state is a federal state. Arizona is NOT a federal state. A state supreme court is supreme over the federal supreme court unless they the big supremes are ruling on a federal state matter.

The irs code is very specific as to what is a federal state and federal conclave. We the people have been tricked in this matter for so many years we just allow it and never question it.

Here come the naysayers on federal states. Before you jump on that, go study the subject first.

Obongo screams and so do so many even here that this violates their (the invaders ) civil rights. Does this violate the citizens civil rights?


You look like a potential illegal to me.

fedup100
04-24-2010, 03:01 PM
You look like a potential illegal to me.

No problem, I have my papers right here. Anyone that cannot produce those papers need s to skedaddle.

The real beauty of this law is that most will self deport almost instantly. There will be far less crime, the food banks can take care of the americans and there will be job openings.

This is a win win for the people of that state. I did a little jig last night. for the first time in a very long time, I saw a small victory for the american people.

MelissaWV
04-24-2010, 03:06 PM
No problem, I have my papers right here. Anyone that cannot produce those papers need s to skedaddle.

The real beauty of this law is that most will self deport almost instantly. There will be far less crime, the food banks can take care of the americans and there will be job openings.

This is a win win for the people of that state. I did a little jig last night. for the first time in a very long time, I saw a small victory for the american people.

You carry your certified birth certificate or immigration papers around with you at all times? That must cause a hell of a bulge in your wallet. Of course, if the police suspect you, they might mistake that bulge for a weapon or drugs. They might have to search you and "secure your person." If you DO have any drugs or weapons on you, be prepared for a perfectly justified shitstorm at the hands of that policeman.

Do not think for one moment that a simple driver's license will be enough proof of citizenship. They are a dime a dozen and the DMV has been screwing up and giving illegals licenses for awhile. The rescinding of validity for Puerto Rican birth certificates has a great deal to do with the Mexican border problems, so that in and of itself will be suspicious, too. As of July, I really won't have anything valid proving I'm a citizen, unless some moron wants to accept my license as proof (and again, why should they?). Thank God I don't live in Arizona.

phill4paul
04-24-2010, 03:07 PM
No problem, I have my papers right here. Anyone that cannot produce those papers need s to skedaddle..

:eek::(:mad:

phill4paul
04-24-2010, 03:09 PM
You carry your certified birth certificate or immigration papers around with you at all times? That must cause a hell of a bulge in your wallet. Of course, if the police suspect you, they might mistake that bulge for a weapon or drugs. They might have to search you and "secure your person." If you DO have any drugs or weapons on you, be prepared for a perfectly justified shitstorm at the hands of that policeman.

Do not think for one moment that a simple driver's license will be enough proof of citizenship. They are a dime a dozen and the DMV has been screwing up and giving illegals licenses for awhile. The rescinding of validity for Puerto Rican birth certificates has a great deal to do with the Mexican border problems, so that in and of itself will be suspicious, too. As of July, I really won't have anything valid proving I'm a citizen, unless some moron wants to accept my license as proof (and again, why should they?). Thank God I don't live in Arizona.

Perhaps we should just tell 'em we're Americans by birth-right, give them our parents name and address and tell them to check their citizenship status? So on and so forth.:p

MelissaWV
04-24-2010, 03:12 PM
Perhaps we should just tell 'em we're Americans by birth-right, give them our parents name and address and tell them to check their citizenship status? So on and so forth.:p

If someone can't see the next step to this, they're absolutely blind.

Papers? WHICH papers? There are myriad forgeries running around!

Don't worry, though, the Government has a solution to that :rolleyes:

fedup100
04-24-2010, 03:36 PM
You carry your certified birth certificate or immigration papers around with you at all times? That must cause a hell of a bulge in your wallet. Of course, if the police suspect you, they might mistake that bulge for a weapon or drugs. They might have to search you and "secure your person." If you DO have any drugs or weapons on you, be prepared for a perfectly justified shitstorm at the hands of that policeman.

Do not think for one moment that a simple driver's license will be enough proof of citizenship. They are a dime a dozen and the DMV has been screwing up and giving illegals licenses for awhile. The rescinding of validity for Puerto Rican birth certificates has a great deal to do with the Mexican border problems, so that in and of itself will be suspicious, too. As of July, I really won't have anything valid proving I'm a citizen, unless some moron wants to accept my license as proof (and again, why should they?). Thank God I don't live in Arizona.

So are you telling me you are an illegal, no wonder your so upset. You need to get a copy of your birth certificate and if your telling me your are an illegal, you need to go back to your country of origin.

Obammy has already passed a plethora of communist laws that will require your papers.

I have a passport that I always carry with me, it is all one needs.

fedup100
04-24-2010, 03:38 PM
:eek::(:mad:

Lets open the borders and let em all come in, yeah that's the ticket, bend over my dear where gonna take your country and your jobs. :eek::(:confused::mad:

fedup100
04-24-2010, 03:42 PM
If someone can't see the next step to this, they're absolutely blind.

Papers? WHICH papers? There are myriad forgeries running around!

Don't worry, though, the Government has a solution to that :rolleyes:

The next step is called NAFTA. The reason your running around with your hair on fire is because it sounds like you shouldn't be here and you damn sure do not need to be voting.

You sure as hell do not need to be influencing people with your all hell is gonna break loose diatribe.

This is so typical, unfrickin real!!

MelissaWV
04-24-2010, 03:44 PM
The next step is called NAFTA. The reason your running around with your hair on fire is because it sounds like you shouldn't be here and you damn sure do not need to be voting.

You sure as hell do not need to be influencing people with your all hell is gonna break loose diatribe.

This is so typical, unfrickin real!!

Which papers would it be that you carry around which prove your citizenship?

Southron
04-24-2010, 03:44 PM
To be fair to Arizona, you can always vote with your feet.

It is easy to criticize when you don't see the results of illegal immigration first hand.

I really think they are between a rock and a hard place so to speak.

MelissaWV
04-24-2010, 03:46 PM
So are you telling me you are an illegal, no wonder your so upset. You need to get a copy of your birth certificate and if your telling me your are an illegal, you need to go back to your country of origin.

Obammy has already passed a plethora of communist laws that will require your papers.

I have a passport that I always carry with me, it is all one needs.

Ah I had missed this one. Actually, I do have my passport, but here's the thing: it was obtained via a birth certificate that will not be valid anymore in July because of rampant fraud. The United States has seen fit to quietly do this, and requires everyone with a Puerto Rican birth certificate to get a new one with "added security features." The old one will no longer be valid for anything. There are, if you didn't know, an awful lot of fake passports out there. The easy solution to this would be to institute Real ID, of course, which would make it "impossible" to have a fake ID, because the cop will just scan it and ensure you're in the right by breathing the same air he is.

You have also overlooked entirely the fact that, as you're being questioned, you are suspected of a crime, which means the police officer does have a right to frisk you for weapons, among other things, and anything discovered during such a search is now likely to be entirely allowable as evidence against you. All because you "looked suspicious."

My country of origin is THE UNITED STATES. It's interesting, though. You immediately suspected me. You would have done moreso in person. You would have detained me for no other reason than your own petty paranoia and preconceptions. Instead of finding a real solution, you'd rather have the police running around checking everyone's "status" on the street rather than concentrating on the two places where it matters: welfare/benefits, and employment.

fedup100
04-24-2010, 03:49 PM
Which papers would it be that you carry around which prove your citizenship?

I told you, my passport. The state department has already fully vetted me or I would not have received a passport.

MelissaWV
04-24-2010, 03:50 PM
I told you, my passport. The state department has already fully vetted me or I would not have received a passport.

Yeah, they vetted me too... and this year they're revoking my birth certificate :p Some vetting process.

fedup100
04-24-2010, 03:51 PM
Ah I had missed this one. Actually, I do have my passport, but here's the thing: it was obtained via a birth certificate that will not be valid anymore in July because of rampant fraud. The United States has seen fit to quietly do this, and requires everyone with a Puerto Rican birth certificate to get a new one with "added security features." The old one will no longer be valid for anything.

So... my country of origin is THE UNITED STATES.

So go get your new one, what's the problem. Congratulations, you ARE a federal citizen.

phill4paul
04-24-2010, 03:53 PM
If someone can't see the next step to this, they're absolutely blind.

Papers? WHICH papers? There are myriad forgeries running around!

Don't worry, though, the Government has a solution to that :rolleyes:

No doubt. I guess I didn't get my point across correctly. I don't believe I need any papers either.

I was simply saying that I was birthed in this nation by citizens of this country. If the law needs proof then they simply have to go and ask my parents. I'm sure my mom will give them a full, and very long accounting, of my entire life history.:D

MelissaWV
04-24-2010, 03:55 PM
So go get your new one, what's the problem. Congratulations, you ARE a federal citizen.

New ones aren't available until the old ones are invalid. I'm sure I'll get my new one in time for Christmas or so. For that time, I won't have anything to prove beyond all doubt that I am a citizen, other than easily-forged paperwork demonstrating beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have a "suspicious" last name :rolleyes:

It's all just a big lead-up for Real ID and e-verify. Hell, e-verify is mentioned in the bill itself.

fedup100
04-24-2010, 03:58 PM
New ones aren't available until the old ones are invalid. I'm sure I'll get my new one in time for Christmas or so. For that time, I won't have anything to prove beyond all doubt that I am a citizen, other than easily-forged paperwork demonstrating beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have a "suspicious" last name :rolleyes:

It's all just a big lead-up for Real ID and e-verify. Hell, e-verify is mentioned in the bill itself.

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill, chill, you will be protected.

Now if the Mexican's can run rough shod over our borders and take the usa back into Mexico, then you need to worry. Those bastards will have a field day raping and pillaging you and yours as the spoils of war and conquest.

MelissaWV
04-24-2010, 03:59 PM
To be fair to Arizona, you can always vote with your feet.

It is easy to criticize when you don't see the results of illegal immigration first hand.

I really think they are between a rock and a hard place so to speak.

I've pointed out at least a dozen times where they could focus their efforts and get rid of the actual problems they're having. You CAN vote with your feet, you're right... for now. I do see the results of illegal immigration, all the time. Instead of stopping them from getting benefits and taking jobs with dubious papers, police like to pester citizens who LOOK like they might be illegal. This law just gives it the green light.

phill4paul
04-24-2010, 04:00 PM
To be fair to Arizona, you can always vote with your feet.

It is easy to criticize when you don't see the results of illegal immigration first hand.

I really think they are between a rock and a hard place so to speak.

Quite. I fully believe that the situation needs to be addressed. However, I'm not inclined to move in the direction is is going.
If someone is charged with a crime I can see actually determining identification.
Tougher when requiring job status when the fakes out there are as good as the real.
I think the onus of citizenship lies in those that receive welfare or are charged with crimes. At that point we can decide to expel non citizens.
Sticky situation all the way around.
In the end it will come to a Worker I.D. card. It's what the fed wants and it is what it will get. It will require individuals to provide revenue to the government to attain it. It will provide revenue to the government to verify it.
It's all good when your the federal government.

MelissaWV
04-24-2010, 04:07 PM
You are making a mountain out of a mole hill, chill, you will be protected.

Now if the Mexican's can run rough shod over our borders and take the usa back into Mexico, then you need to worry. Those bastards will have a field day raping and pillaging you and yours as the spoils of war and conquest.

Um, protected by whom? Two posts ago you wanted to deport me. :D The Mexicans wouldn't run roughtshod over the border if it weren't for a) the Drug War, b) people hiring them in the US, and c) the ridiculous amount of benefits my taxes go to pay for their undocumented asses to collect. How about each of those particular things get addressed by a bill, rather than this moronic "hey you look like you might be illegal" excuse that people are accepting based on the fact they're upset over illegals?

We could a) set up a REAL border patrol (short of decriminalization, that's what would have to be done), b) do the citizenship checking when one applies for a job, which would take the form of a valid birth certificate or citizenship paperwork (people would know ahead of time to bring these, just like they know to bring valid ID and SS card now) and which companies would have an interest in spot-checking for authenticity, and c) verify someone's citizenship in the same way when they apply for benefits, once again spot-checking a certain number for authenticity. In addition, the Federal Government could do with an overhaul of its *legal* immigration policy, but I digress on that one.

The funny thing is that all three of those things would not cost anything extra. The last one would save enough money to cover the first two.

I'd love to get rid of illegals, as long as we're going to have borders. I'd love for the states to be the ones to decide the legislation, since they're the ones who will have to deal with the fallout. I fail to see how "papers please" is an effective use of time and resources, other than to roll out Real ID and e-verify, and to fan the rampant xenophobia the ignorant feel towards certain groups and behaviors.

The trouble with what I've suggested, I guess, is that it makes too much sense to be implemented, and it doesn't benefit the Government enough. :rolleyes:

If you fail to see where this is headed next, no amount of talking about it will change things, but are you really saying that this bill will address illegal immigration and fix things? I just don't see it. We're going to have to agree to disagree.

fedup100
04-24-2010, 05:24 PM
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c375/Navajozorro/Handler.jpg

fedup100
04-24-2010, 05:26 PM
YouTube - Apr. 23, 2010 - Arizona SB1070: "Small Riot Breaks Out at Immigration Protest" - part 1\2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgZDYNQEwlM&feature=related)

phill4paul
04-24-2010, 06:01 PM
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c375/Navajozorro/Handler.jpg

And even better after?

http://www.umich.edu/~ltpao/hangti.jpg

MelissaWV
04-24-2010, 07:42 PM
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c375/Navajozorro/Handler.jpg

Did this have a point of some sort? If so, you failed to make it.

Liberty Star
04-24-2010, 11:53 PM
It just sounds a little nazi ish, cops asking people for papers and all...

Even if they just ask people with tan or brown skin shades?

Iraq liberation is almost complete, time for tax payers to fund liberation of Arizona and Texas next.

silentshout
04-25-2010, 12:12 AM
Why do people call Obama Obango?

Rock Sexton
04-27-2010, 08:04 PM
Seems like Obama cares more about bankers and illegals than he does your ordinary citizen.

peacepotpaul
04-27-2010, 09:21 PM
wait, did somebody say Obama is upset with an expansion of government?

http://gadgetsteria.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/yikes.jpg

Carson
04-27-2010, 09:30 PM
I can remember when exactly this sort of law enforcement tool worked.

Back in the 50's, 60's and 70's the border patrol answered the call and kept the immigration laws enforced along a swatch of land about fifty miles wide all along the border. Any illegal immigration violations inland were handled by local police. They had the Border Patrols back.

Many of us made a huge investment in population control when the government insisted our children were unwanted because the population was rising so fast. Many of us never had a say.

About the same time in the seventies this same group was subverting the immigration laws and flinging open the borders to cater to the criminals in business.

All we can do now is slow down the lawlessness. Soon many of us will find we have no other choice but to join in to survive. That is why it is so important to many of us to hold out as long as we can.

Don't Tread on Mike
04-27-2010, 11:03 PM
i kinda agree with him for the first time.