Arizona to Obama: Birth Cert in 2012 to get on ballot

[Rael]

PHOENIX -- The Arizona House on Monday voted for a provision that would require President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate if he hopes to be on the state's ballot when he runs for reelection.

The House voted 31-22 to add the provision to a separate bill. The measure still faces a formal vote.

It would require U.S. presidential candidates who want to appear on the ballot in Arizona to submit documents proving they meet the constitutional requirements to be president.

Phoenix Democratic Rep. Kyrsten Sinema said the bill is one of several measures that are making Arizona "the laughing stock of the nation."

Mesa Republican Rep. Cecil Ash said he has no reason to doubt Obama's citizenship but supports the measure because it could help end doubt.

[tropicangela]

uhm obama or not... birther or not... public school makes me present birth certificates to enroll my kids. it's the least presidential candidates should have to do...

[TC95]

Looks like Obama's gonna lose the state of Arizona.

[puppetmaster]

uhm obama or not... birther or not... public school makes me present birth certificates to enroll my kids. it's the least presidential candidates should have to do...

exactly

[RileyE104]

They should have been doing this shit anyways.

I had to bring my freaking social security card, a report card from school, AND my birth certificate just so I could get a damn ID card. And there's people whining about how a man wanting to hold the highest office in this land (other than the FED Chairman) needs to show a birth certificate to do so?

[Stary Hickory]

About time, time to take this condescending assclown down a notch.

He SHOULD have voluntarily done this already.

[jdmyprez_deo_vindice]

well I guess we know what state will not have Obama on the ballot......

[RileyE104]

well I guess we know what state will not have Obama on the ballot......

I hope he DOES decide to run again, the stage for a debate against Ron is already being set - if he can get the Nomination he'll destroy Barry in a debate.

[Sarge]

I will contribute towards carbon dating the certificate. He wants to play, so do I.

[Depressed Liberator]

It's already been out, examined, and approved by the freaking state of Hawaii. Move along and stop grasping at the straws. There are far more important things out there than something as baseless as this.

[puppetmaster]

Each state should have to do this. I am not even a birther, and I think it should be a law in all states

[speciallyblend]

It's already been out, examined, and approved by the freaking state of Hawaii. Move along and stop grasping at the straws. There are far more important things out there than something as baseless as this.

+1 ,kinda how i feel. the focus should be reclaiming the failed gop, until obama registers republican. obama is irrelevant!!! the gop establishment is the real problem in the gop not obama!!

[Noob]

It's already been out, examined, and approved by the freaking state of Hawaii. Move along and stop grasping at the straws. There are far more important things out there than something as baseless as this.

IF so than why are Kenyan Law makers are saying he was born in Kenya? One them have to be lieing about it, wich one? The Kenyan's or Hawaii? Of course Americas goverment never lies to American people, becuse they care to much to lie.



Member of the Kenyan Assembly on March 25th, 2010, admits that Obama was born in Kenya.

http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2010/04/member-of-kenyan-assembly-on-march-25th.html



Kenyan Minister Khalwale Asks When Obama Will Repatriate Himself?

http://jeffersonsrebels.blogspot.com/2010/04/kenyan-minister-khalwale-asks-when.html

[Sarge]

deleted.

What ever

[Depressed Liberator]

IF so than why are Kenyan Law makers are saying he was born in Kenya? One them have to be lieing about it, wich one? The Kenyan's or Hawaii? Of course Americas goverment never lies to American people, becuse they care to much to lie.



Member of the Kenyan Assembly on March 25th, 2010, admits that Obama was born in Kenya.

http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/2010/04/member-of-kenyan-assembly-on-march-25th.html



Kenyan Minister Khalwale Asks When Obama Will Repatriate Himself?

http://jeffersonsrebels.blogspot.com/2010/04/kenyan-minister-khalwale-asks-when.html

You're going to believe what some low foreign government official is saying? Again, grasping at the straws.

[Noob]

You're going to believe what some low foreign government official is saying? Again, grasping at the straws.

To make the point, MP James Orenga is not some fringe person, but is not only a member of parliament in Kenya, but is a member of the Presidential Cabinet in a much respected position of Minister of Lands.

In this capacity, he is in the process of seizing land stolen by past corrupt politicians and returning them to Kenyans which is what should be happening all through the world in real land reform to empower all peoples.

MP Orenga formed the formidable Forum for the Restoration of Democracy which helped unseat the ruling KANU party.

He ran for President of Kenya, of which he is qualified in 2002 and like Howard Dean who was chairman of the Democrate party, Orenga was chairman of SDP until 2007 when he joined the ruling cabinet, whose government just happens to be Riala Odinga, cousin of Barack Hussein Obama jr, whom Obama campaigned for.

As stated, MP James Orenga, is an attorney, reformist, supporter of Riala Odinga, cousin of Barack Hussein Obama jr., a Presidential candidate, Member of Parliament and member of the Kenyan Government as a Cabinet Minister of Lands, this is hardly someone who can be dismissed, mocked or called a crazy Birther

[ARealConservative]

It's already been out, examined, and approved by the freaking state of Hawaii. Move along and stop grasping at the straws. There are far more important things out there than something as baseless as this.

well said.

I'm curious, how many of you would be willing to require Ron Paul to submit documents and have those documents approved by TPTB in each state before he could be in their ballot.

I hope you all realize how dangerous this precedent could be for us outsiders.

[QueenB4Liberty]

It's already been out, examined, and approved by the freaking state of Hawaii. Move along and stop grasping at the straws. There are far more important things out there than something as baseless as this.

Pretty much!

[Noob]

I am all for every body to show and submit thier documents to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that they are a natural born citizen as the Constitution requires to become President. Not a Native Born ,but Natural Born citizen as the Consitituion says.

What is wrong with making sure the Constituion is enforce?

[Captain America]

uhm obama or not... birther or not... public school makes me present birth certificates to enroll my kids. it's the least presidential candidates should have to do...


exactly!

[moostraks]

I will contribute towards carbon dating the certificate. He wants to play, so do I.

:D

[moostraks]

well said.

I'm curious, how many of you would be willing to require Ron Paul to submit documents and have those documents approved by TPTB in each state before he could be in their ballot.

I hope you all realize how dangerous this precedent could be for us outsiders.

For the highest government position it should be required to submit documents in a more stringent fashion. The stuff he submitted probably wouldn't get him in little league...

[Depressed Liberator]

For the highest government position it should be required to submit documents in a more stringent fashion. The stuff he submitted probably wouldn't get him in little league...

I remember when I got my license a few years ago, all I did was show a short birth certificate like the one that is floating on the internet. But besides release that one, a longer one has been examined by third parties and by some department in Hawaii. A freaking newspaper clipping that has his name after being born IN HAWAII is also floating around the internet.

There really is no real argument to say that he was not born here.

[Rael]

I remember when I got my license a few years ago, all I did was show a short birth certificate like the one that is floating on the internet. But besides release that one, a longer one has been examined by third parties and by some department in Hawaii. A freaking newspaper clipping that has his name after being born IN HAWAII is also floating around the internet.

There really is no real argument to say that he was not born here.

So why not release his long form cert? My guess is he just wants to be a dick. I don't see why he should not be required to, it's not really not that much to expect from a presidential candidate.

[qh4dotcom]

It's already been out, examined, and approved by the freaking state of Hawaii.

Which is infested with liberals

[qh4dotcom]

You're going to believe what some low foreign government official is saying? Again, grasping at the straws.

I trust Michelle Obama when she said Barack's home country is Kenya

YouTube - Obama EXPOSED! Michelle Admits His Home Country Is Kenya! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=proi6NFdKVs)

[Light]

The whole "birther" nonsense is another loltastic conspiracy theory that makes us look bad.

[Depressed Liberator]

Look, you are never going to believe anything. If he were to release this long form certificate, you would just say he faked it and that it is not real. Do not say you would not say this. You know you would, so do not even start.

With the Michelle Obama thing, again, you're grasping at the straws. Stop it with these logical fallacies. What she said can be interpreted in any way you want to interpret it, and it is obvious you want to spin it to mean that he was born in Kenya. Please, stop it with this bull shit. We had open truthers in 2007 harm the movement; we do not need birthers in 2011.

[BlackTerrel]

Look, you are never going to believe anything. If he were to release this long form certificate, you would just say he faked it and that it is not real. Do not say you would not say this. You know you would, so do not even start.

Pretty much. Debating is meaningless.

The facts on the ground are Obama is President. He will also be on the ballot in 2012 in every state.

Anyone willing to take that bet? I'll give you 100-1 odds.

[sofia]

whats with all the obama apologists here?

why cant we see the friggin birth certificate?????

[silus]

+1 ,kinda how i feel. the focus should be reclaiming the failed gop, until obama registers republican. obama is irrelevant!!! the gop establishment is the real problem in the gop not obama!!
Thank you! Shut the fuck up already with this shit. Stop diluting the real message.

[pcosmar]

The whole "birther" nonsense is another loltastic conspiracy theory that makes us look bad.

How
I don't live in Arizona.
Apparently they have questions.
:rolleyes:

[Light]

whats with all the obama apologists here?

why cant we see the friggin birth certificate?????

Maybe because its a deadend issue. And even if hypothetically it did get out that he is not a natural-born citizen (which is unlikely), he would never be successfully impeached. Heck, Clinton was found guilty of lying, and that was not enough to succeed in impeaching him. So either way, the issue is a dead end, and makes us look like crazies (however, the media will portray us as crazies by calling us "racists" and "homophobes"). The birth certificate issue accomplishes nothing except make us look bad.

[pcosmar]

Maybe because its a deadend issue. And even if hypothetically it did get out that he is not a natural-born citizen (which is unlikely), he would never be successfully impeached. Heck, Clinton was found guilty of lying, and that was not enough to succeed in impeaching him. So either way, the issue is a dead end, and makes us look like crazies (however, the media will portray us as crazies by calling us "racists" and "homophobes"). The birth certificate issue accomplishes nothing except make us look bad.

No. It doesn't make me look bad at all.

It doesn't much affect me at all, one way or the other.
But it is a PITA to them, and I like that. And they are spending a lot of money fighting it.
I find that interesting and humorous.

But it doesn't make me look bad at all.
:cool:

[silus]

whats with all the obama apologists here?

why cant we see the friggin birth certificate?????
And idiots like you really piss me off. The point you are too ignorant to comprehend is that Ron Paul (this is a ron paul forum by the way) has been talking about the same issues for over 35 fucking years. Issues that drive at the very heart of American life and governance. Issues that go well beyond one single presidency. And idiots like you selfishly dilute his message and act as if removing Obama from office will cure Washington. NEWS FLASH, there is a laundry list of unconstitutional things going on in Washington. People intelligent enough focus on attacking the fundamental problems. Annoying fools rant and rave about something that even if changed to their liking, will do NOTHING to change anything. This is you.

Not to mention that by keeping fools like you crying about a birth certificate you give people the excuse they need to dismiss you. So basically you suck at strategy and you suck at representing Ron Paul. Go kill yourself.

[JaylieWoW]

And idiots like you really piss me off. The point you are too ignorant to comprehend is that Ron Paul (this is a ron paul forum by the way) has been talking about the same issues for over 35 fucking years. Issues that drive at the very heart of American life and governance. Issues that go well beyond one single presidency. And idiots like you selfishly dilute his message and act as if removing Obama from office will cure Washington. NEWS FLASH, there is a laundry list of unconstitutional things going on in Washington. People intelligent enough focus on attacking the fundamental problems. Annoying fools rant and rave about something that even if changed to their liking, will do NOTHING to change anything. This is you.

Not to mention that by keeping fools like you crying about a birth certificate you give people the excuse they need to dismiss you. So basically you suck at strategy and you suck at representing Ron Paul. Go kill yourself.

Emphasis my own. This is the contribution being made by those who continue to prat on about the whole birth certificate thing. Don't you see how easy it is for the "mainstream" to conjure up nonsense from legitimate points? Why focus on something so inane? Ever hear the saying, give 'em enough rope to hang themselves? Let's not give them any rope at all. Attack the real problems and stop letting yourself get caught up in the "get rich quick" kind of schemes.

It isn't going to be an easy fight and there isn't going to be a quick and easy way of winning. So, dig in those trenches and fight for the things that REALLY matter and that will eventually win the day.

I will add, however, that while I understand your frustration Silus, your point was better made if you'd left off the part about "go kill yourself".

[silus]

I will add, however, that while I understand your frustration Silus, your point was better made if you'd left off the part about "go kill yourself".
Thats what that idiot gets for calling me an Obama apologist. :mad:

[Andrew-Austin]

"Papers please" the never ending request regular Americans hear. Obama isn't a regular American though, hes a ruler, its nutty and laughable that people question this by complaining about a technicality. /sarcasm

[JaylieWoW]

Thats what that idiot gets for calling me an Obama apologist. :mad:

Like I said, I completely understand. Stand tall and just duck all those "sticks & stones". :D ;)

[chadhb]

If Democrats and Neo-Cons don't want us to discuss it, then there is a damn good reason why we should.

[Zippyjuan]

If he was born in Kenya he would not have a passport, not be in this country.He was BORN in HAWAII, newspaper birth announcement has been posted and no one is offering proof otherwise he was born in Kenya, my God find me a damn Kenyan birth certificate or any documentation of Kenya and I might believe you, but all you are doing is hearsay.

Check the dates....
---------


Okay I hope to put this to rest, I searched Lexis Nexus off my school library to put this damn thing down already, you find me an article saying he was born in Kenya by the AP, but I'll give you two articles and you judge for yourself.

But these articles must have been manipulated some how huh! Of course 1 article out of many that says he was Kenyan born is the right one right? What kind of logic is that?





BTW there are more articles if you feel this isn't sufficient enough I'll be happy to post more.

Post all the info you like. Anybody who does not accept the facts presented so far will not have their mind changed by even a new "long form" birth cerificate being produced at this point.

Ron Paul felt he was being hurt by being associated with 9/11 truthers and said that if they cared about him they would drop the issue. He has avoided mostly the birther issue (likely to avoid calling any attention to him on it) but probably has the same opinion on it as well.

"Would you ask them to cease that rhetoric on your behalf?"
"Well it doesn't do me any good - so if they care about me they should. "

YouTube - Ron Paul @ Fox Debate Pt.2 1-10-08 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-lxZmrqLxU)

[chadhb]

whats with all the obama apologists here?

why cant we see the friggin birth certificate?????


Neo-Con's. You are not allowed to know anything about Obama past. We have a country that is being held hostage by Neo-Con's, why do you think the Wars continue? It is called blackmail.

[Stary Hickory]

So why not release his long form cert? My guess is he just wants to be a dick. I don't see why he should not be required to, it's not really not that much to expect from a presidential candidate.

Not to mention all we have seen is a digital short form. Obama has been a condescending ass clown about this. And there are multiple claims and evidence that suggest he was not born here. The only way to shut up all of this noise is to demonstrate fully that he was in compliance with the US Constitution.

A) He is a prick who does not care if millions of Americans have doubts about is constitutional eligibility

or

B) he has something to hide

I have never seen a president behave in such a manner....to totally disrespect one haf of the country and still CLAIM the right to rule them with force.

[Stary Hickory]

If he was born in Kenya he would not have a passport, not be in this country.He was BORN in HAWAII, newspaper birth announcement has been posted and no one is offering proof otherwise he was born in Kenya, my God find me a damn Kenyan birth certificate or any documentation of Kenya and I might believe you, but all you are doing is hearsay.

Check the dates....
http://cmsimg.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=M1&Date=20081109&Category=NEWS01&ArtNo=811090361&Ref=V3&Profile=1002&MaxW=550&MaxH=650&Q=90&title=0

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/BarackObamaCertificationOfLiveBirthHawaii.jpg/614px-BarackObamaCertificationOfLiveBirthHawaii.jpg

Okay I hope to put this to rest, I searched Lexis Nexus off my school library to put this damn thing down already, you find me an article saying he was born in Kenya by the AP, but I'll give you two articles and you judge for yourself.

But these articles must have been manipulated some how huh! Of course 1 article out of many that says he was Kenyan born is the right one right? What kind of logic is that?





BTW there are more articles if you feel this isn't sufficient enough I'll be happy to post more.

The paper announcement was something you could call in. It does NOT mean he was born here. This is not evidence, the BC would be however. And neither is the passport deal, Obama was going into countries in a manner that would be impossible for an American without a dual or foreign citizenship..

Your facts are not even facts. It all revolves around this:

The Obama administration will do everything (including spending millions) to dig up crazy stuff like this as proof, to hide the past, to ridicule questions....it will do all of this exhaustively...but it will not show the stupid BC.

For me his actions suggest he has something to hide. There is no way to settle this without Obama doing what any American would have to do to demonstrate eligibility. This issue should have been laid to rest a long time ago, instead the State of Arizona is now forcing the issue.

Why would anyone create this kind of antagonism? Why would a president want to keep his constitutional eligibility in question for so long? How does he gain from looking like a major creep by refusing to address concerns over his eligibility. When the question was raised about McCain....by the Dems(these guys cannot be birthers apparently) he complied by presenting the long form BC.

I am tired of the smoke and mirrors. For whatever reason this needs to be resolved. Because Obama has waited, and may be forced to show the BC, many will never believe him no matter what. Again what does he gain by creating this problem for himself?

[ninepointfive]

I see both sides of this issue. I want to see a birth certificate, and am happy to see that Arizona may be pushing the issue in the future.

Then again, I also agree that no matter who was elected was going to be a new world order globalist. The fact remains that Obama's in office, and we have more ammunition against our opponent while debating policy and the constitution.

[rnestam]

Not to mention all we have seen is a digital short form. Obama has been a condescending ass clown about this. And there are multiple claims and evidence that suggest he was not born here. The only way to shut up all of this noise is to demonstrate fully that he was in compliance with the US Constitution.

A) He is a prick who does not care if millions of Americans have doubts about is constitutional eligibility

or

B) he has something to hide

I have never seen a president behave in such a manner....to totally disrespect one haf of the country and still CLAIM the right to rule them with force.


OR

C) It is a fantastic issue for Democrats, whom if you remember, are the ones that kept fueling the debate, because it makes the "birthers" seem like morons.

Shouldn't make an issue out of something unless you know for a fact you are right, if they bring this back to a boil and then slam down the stupid birth certificate it will hurt all of us and in the MSM's eye's "prove" how racist the tea party is AS A WHOLE, including us. Putting your reputation behind something that might have a 2% chance of being true is ridiculous, and quite honestly, a little racist.

[torchbearer]

OR

C) It is a fantastic issue for Democrats, whom if you remember, are the ones that kept fueling the debate, because it makes the "birthers" seem like morons.

Shouldn't make an issue out of something unless you know for a fact you are right, if they bring this back to a boil and then slam down the stupid birth certificate it will hurt all of us and in the MSM's eye's "prove" how racist the tea party is AS A WHOLE, including us. Putting your reputation behind something that might have a 2% chance of being true is ridiculous, and quite honestly, a little racist.

what i find funny about the libs. they croned about the birthers because they believed them to be suffering from sour grapes, trying to remove a sitting president.
but this law is different, it requires all people wanting to run for president in the future to present documents to prove they qualify.
this should be done in every state already, but it isn't. Hitler could qualify to run for president right now if he was in one of the major parties.

Laws like this prevent usurpers, and that is in the interest of everyone but those who wish to usurp.
Now, who doesn't like this law again? Usurpers and democrats?

[ARealConservative]

what i find funny about the libs. they croned about the birthers because they believed them to be suffering from sour grapes, trying to remove a sitting president.
but this law is different, it requires all people wanting to run for president in the future to present documents to prove they qualify.
this should be done in every state already, but it isn't. Hitler could qualify to run for president right now if he was in one of the major parties.

Laws like this prevent usurpers, and that is in the interest of everyone but those who wish to usurp.
Now, who doesn't like this law again? Usurpers and democrats?

how does one state authenticate another states birth certificate exactly?

[rnestam]

what i find funny about the libs. they croned about the birthers because they believed them to be suffering from sour grapes, trying to remove a sitting president.
but this law is different, it requires all people wanting to run for president in the future to present documents to prove they qualify.
this should be done in every state already, but it isn't. Hitler could qualify to run for president right now if he was in one of the major parties.

Laws like this prevent usurpers, and that is in the interest of everyone but those who wish to usurp.
Now, who doesn't like this law again? Usurpers and democrats?

You're right, 100%...but right now the entire strategy the Democrats are leaning on is, bury the issues and make this about race and racism. Very clear this is what they are doing. And if a handful of Southern Conservative States start passing similar measures while Obama is in office it will be devastating for 2012, regardless of what happens in the upcoming elections. All I'm saying is even if we were positive he was born in Kenya, it should be dropped or the issues that will hopefully convert from both sides will be second to a side wedge issue.

The evidence, like the newspaper article, may not be enough for some people, but it is more than enough evidence for a whole handful of people we need to convert. If this supposed issue gets tagged to us it's game over. If Ron Paul even gets close in the polls during 2011, Racism will be the number one tear down issue 100%. It started in 2007 and we should be playing defense now.

[torchbearer]

how does one state authenticate another states birth certificate exactly?

a certified long form from that state of birth with witnessed signatures of the doctor at birth, that delivered would be an impressive amount of evidence.

[puppetmaster]

Again I am not a birther! I jut say that if I have to prove citizenship for my kids, myself... and now I have to show a birth cert just to get the new real ID (national ID!) to drive. I say if there is a law then even the president is not above it.....And if there isn't, Kudos to AZ for making one. I am sure RP would will show his info to get registered...;)

[Chester Copperpot]

Very Niiiiiiice!!!!

[silentshout]

+1 ,kinda how i feel. the focus should be reclaiming the failed gop, until obama registers republican. obama is irrelevant!!! the gop establishment is the real problem in the gop not obama!!

Exactly. Actually stuff like this makes me want to run away screaming from anything related to the GOP.

[silentshout]

Neo-Con's. You are not allowed to know anything about Obama past. We have a country that is being held hostage by Neo-Con's, why do you think the Wars continue? It is called blackmail.

No, maybe some of us think this issue is just creepy...the certificate has already been examined, please move on. I'm no neo-con...furthest thing from it but I don't like this.

[Zippyjuan]

The paper announcement was something you could call in. It does NOT mean he was born here. This is not evidence, the BC would be however. And neither is the passport deal, Obama was going into countries in a manner that would be impossible for an American without a dual or foreign citizenship..

Your facts are not even facts.

I am tired of the smoke and mirrors. For whatever reason this needs to be resolved. Because Obama has waited, and may be forced to show the BC, many will never believe him no matter what. Again what does he gain by creating this problem for himself?

You might check your own facts. It was not illegal for US citizens to travel to Pakistan at the time he went. There was a travel advisory (which they issue all the time) but no travel ban. There are travel advisories for parts of Mexico but it is not illegal for US citizens to travel there.

If you think that the birth anouncements in the newspaper were part of the conspiracy, then you must believe that there was a plan to make this man president even before he was born. Pretty smart deal for a girl from Iowa to come up with.

As I have said before, the pope could certify the long form and birthers would still claim it is a fake. There may be reasons to not like Obama and the job he is doing as president, but the birther thing will do nothing but waste time. Raise the subject in a political conversation and people will reject the rest of what you say. Unless you are talking to another birther. So keep raising it and people will continue to ignore you.

New survey shows 20% believe he was born someplace else and 23% don't know or don't care. http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/21/obama-and-the-birthers-in-the-latest-poll/

April 21, 2010, 10:53 am
Obama and the ‘Birthers’ in the Latest Poll
By DALIA SUSSMAN AND MARINA STEFAN
President Obama was born in Hawaii on Aug. 4, 1961. A scanned image of his birth certificate released during the 2008 presidential campaign says he was, and Hawaii’s health director and its registrar of vital statistics have confirmed it.



Indeed, the belief that the president was born in another country peaks among his detractors – those who disapprove of the job he’s doing as president and have an unfavorable view of him. That includes 32 percent of Republicans and 40 percent of those who describe themselves as very conservative, according to the poll.

Less educated Americans and senior citizens are also more likely to think so than younger or better educated respondents.



Several respondents said they thought he was born in Africa (some specifically said Kenya), while others mentioned Iran, Malaysia, Indonesia (where Mr. Obama spent time as a child with his mother), or said they didn’t know. Sources of information included the Internet, TV, newspapers and friends.

But the respondents were generally vague, with some suggesting that part of the skepticism regarding the president’s birthplace may have more to do with distrust of Mr. Obama himself than with any evidence they have seen on the issue.

[squarepusher]

You might check your own facts. It was not illegal for US citizens to travel to Pakistan at the time he went. There was a travel advisory (which they issue all the time) but no travel ban. There are travel advisories for parts of Mexico but it is not illegal for US citizens to travel there.

If you think that the birth anouncements in the newspaper were part of the conspiracy, then you must believe that there was a plan to make this man president even before he was born. Pretty smart deal for a girl from Iowa to come up with.

As I have said before, the pope could certify the long form and birthers would still claim it is a fake. There may be reasons to not like Obama and the job he is doing as president, but the birther thing will do nothing but waste time. Raise the subject in a political conversation and people will reject the rest of what you say. Unless you are talking to another birther. So keep raising it and people will continue to ignore you.

not really. His grandma, who lived in Hawaii, likely wanted her son to have citizenship and not have to hire a lawyer/go through complicated procedures if he was born out of state (regardless of what her hippy daughter was doing). So, she simply called the newspaper and gave an announcement.

[Todd]

Emphasis my own. This is the contribution being made by those who continue to prat on about the whole birth certificate thing. Don't you see how easy it is for the "mainstream" to conjure up nonsense from legitimate points? Why focus on something so inane? Ever hear the saying, give 'em enough rope to hang themselves? Let's not give them any rope at all. Attack the real problems and stop letting yourself get caught up in the "get rich quick" kind of schemes.

It isn't going to be an easy fight and there isn't going to be a quick and easy way of winning. So, dig in those trenches and fight for the things that REALLY matter and that will eventually win the day.

This^

[Zippyjuan]

not really. His grandma, who lived in Hawaii, likely wanted her son to have citizenship and not have to hire a lawyer/go through complicated procedures if he was born out of state (regardless of what her hippy daughter was doing). So, she simply called the newspaper and gave an announcement.

The anouncements are (they appeared in both local papers-not just one), agreed, not any real proof of where he was born. But it is highly supportive of the birth certificate produced and verified which is real proof- whether one chooses to accept that or not.

The birther fight will not change the fact of Obama being president. No matter how much one may dislike that.

[Bruno]

The anouncements are (they appeared in both local papers-not just one), agreed, not any real proof of where he was born. But it is highly supportive of the birth certificate produced and verified which is real proof- whether one chooses to accept that or not.

The birther fight will not change the fact of Obama being president. No matter how much one may dislike that.

Might change it for 2012, though... ;)

[Zippyjuan]

If he is voted out, it will not be on that issue. Those who question his birth would not have voted for him in the first place.

[torchbearer]

I still haven't seen anyone make the case as to why this legislation is bad.
Why is it bad to require proof of qualification for a ballot?

[spaceship_earth]

I remember when I got my license a few years ago, all I did was show a short birth certificate like the one that is floating on the internet. But besides release that one, a longer one has been examined by third parties and by some department in Hawaii. A freaking newspaper clipping that has his name after being born IN HAWAII is also floating around the internet.

There really is no real argument to say that he was not born here.

Except that the address listed in that birth announcement (6085 Kalanianaole Highway) was owned by an Orland S. and Thelma S. (Young) Lefforge.

:confused:

[Zippyjuan]

Aparently there was a cottage for rent in the back of the lot and perhaps his parents lived there. This article has another interesting tidbit in it. Owner of a house is also not necessarily who lived there- it or even a room in it- could have been rented out.
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20081109/NEWS01/811090361/Obama-s-Hawaii-boyhood-homes-drawing-gawkers

Advertiser columnist and former Star-Bulletin managing editor Dave Shapiro was not at either paper in 1961, but he remembers how the birth notices process worked years later when both papers were jointly operated by the Hawaii Newspaper Agency — which no longer exists.

"Those were listings that came over from the state Department of Health," he said. "They would send the same thing to both papers."

Baby's first home
Fringe theorists who insist Obama was born in Kenya are left to ponder how two independent Honolulu daily newspapers and the state Department of Health could be part of conspiracy half a century ago to thwart the truth about the future president of the United States.

The first mention of that future president in the announcement was the word "son." The Barack H. Obama referred to was the newborn's father and the husband of the former Stanley Ann Dunham, the boy's mother. She and her parents, Kansas couple Stan Dunham, a furniture store operator, and Madelyn Dunham ("Toot," to Obama), a bank cashier, had come to Hawai'i in 1960 and moved into the Kalaniana'ole location.

The senior Obama came from Kenya to the University of Hawai'i in 1959, where he met and later married Stanley Ann Dunham, 18, also a UH student.

It's feasible the couple occupied the back cottage at 6085 Kalaniana'ole. Public records from the time show that Barack H. Obama, 25, also had a residence at 625 11th Ave. in Kaimuki.

Since those records show that Obama Sr. had the 11th Avenue dwelling at the same time he and his wife were living on Kalanianaole Highway, it's possible the young Barack also visited that residence. The 11th Avenue address is now occupied by a larger dwelling that was built in 1990.



While most Obama residences can be traced, the hospital where he was born is difficult to document. The desire of historians to pinpoint where Obama's life began has crashed head-on with the modern American propensity toward confidentiality. The federal Health Information Privacy Act of 1999 — a law passed to protect medical records from public scrutiny — prevents hospitals from confirming births, administrators contend.

"We don't have plans to do anything," said Kapiolani Medical Center spokeswoman, Claire Tong, when asked how the center plans to commemorate the soon-to-be 44th U.S. president, who, according to Obama's family and other sources, was born at that hospital on Aug. 4, 1961.

"We can't confirm or deny it — even though all the information out there says he was born at Kapiolani Hospital. And that's because of the HIPA law."

Tong acknowledged that the center has received daily inquiries from news agencies far and wide asking for confirmation of Obama's birthplace. Much as she wishes she could do it, Tong said it's not possible.

"Our hands are tied," she said.

[ARealConservative]

a certified long form from that state of birth with witnessed signatures of the doctor at birth, that delivered would be an impressive amount of evidence.

easy to forge.

who decides it is authentic, the original state is the only one truly qualified to do so. And one state can't force another state to comply.

[torchbearer]

easy to forge.

who decides it is authentic, the original state is the only one truly qualified to do so. And one state can't force another state to comply.

are you saying AZ won't recognize a certified certificate of another state? easy for one AG to call another AG to verify it came from them.

[Stary Hickory]

I still haven't seen anyone make the case as to why this legislation is bad.
Why is it bad to require proof of qualification for a ballot?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with requiring this. I find that people lose their minds and their objectivity when discussing this issue. A law for proof of qualification would have avoided this whole mess.

Some say they believe in the constitution but do not believe in enforcing it. I find these people ridiculous.

[TrueFreedom]

The issue is not with the law. At face value a law that requires candidates to provide a long form birth certificate to get on a ballot is fine. That would help to clarify that the person attempting to get on the ballot is an actual citizen. The issue is the reason in which this is being pushed all of a sudden against President Obama. I am the furthest thing from an Obama supporter, but it is clear to even me that there is some sort of smear campaign going on against him. I tend to believe it is racially based, which I am sure people will criticize me for, but in my lifetime I have never seen a President get hit so hard with smears as Obama has. You know, living in the deep south I have heard people that believe all the nonsense, Obama is a Muslim, Obama is a terrorist, Obama cancelled the National Day of Prayer, Obama is going to have death squads that will pull the plug on granny, and it's all a bunch of bull. And most people on his board are intelligent enough to see through that crap. We understand that Obama is not a good president because of his run away spending and socialist style policies. But this is no different. The birth certificate argument is garbage. And it wouldn't matter if he produced a long form because the people that promote this junk now would just say he forged it. It's sad really.

[tpreitzel]

The issue is not with the law. It's sad really.

This law isn't even needed. The last time I checked, the US Constitution remained the highest law of the land which is plenty clear on this issue. Next, you conveniently disregard the questions surrounding McCain's birthplace as well and his eligibility to be POTUS. I'm fairly sure that if McCain had become POTUS, similar questions would have hounded him as well. Lastly, it's NOT sad that Obama continues to be hounded over this issue. Isn't it interesting that both major parties picked candidates for POTUS with questionable eligibility? Among the potential candidates for POTUS, one would think that both parties could at least select candidates with spotless eligibility on this issue, eh? ;) The US Constitution MUST be upheld regardless of the occupant of the White House.

[TrueFreedom]

This law isn't even needed. The last time I checked, the US Constitution remained the highest law of the land which is plenty clear on this issue. Next, you conveniently disregard the questions surrounding McCain's birthplace as well and his eligibility to be POTUS. I'm fairly sure that if McCain had become POTUS, similar questions would have hounded him as well. Lastly, it's NOT sad that Obama continues to be hounded over this issue. Isn't it interesting that both major parties picked candidates for the POTUS with questionable eligibility? Among the potential candidates for POTUS, one would think that both parties could at least select candidates with spotless eligibility on this issue, eh? ;) The US Constitution MUST be upheld regardless of the occupant of the White House.

While I don't really have a dog in this fight I must say that it is up to each independent state what laws they want to pass for their Secretaries of State to use to determine citizenship validity. So I would say this law is needed. And yes, you can come over the top and say, "Well the Constitution states that they must be a natural born citizen", but it does not state how that is determined. If a state legislature wants to determine a natural born citizen by a certificate of live birth or by a long form birth certificiate should be the decision of the legislature of that state. Secondly, I doubt that McCain would have caught as much heat as Obama has, although there would be some that would argue he wasn't a natural born citizen. But there certainly would not have been the ridiculous smears of his ethnic background or religious preference like there was with Obama and we both know that. And you end your point by saying "spotless eligibility" for the candidates, but who determines that? I can guarentee that if Obama produced a long form tomorrow there would be just as many people claiming it was forged or false and we both know that. Argue that Obama is bad for the policies he is enacting on the people, not on conspiracies.

[Raditude]

Only problem is, Birth Certificates are easily forged with some Photoshop skills.

[TrueFreedom]

Only problem is, Birth Certificates are easily forged with some Photoshop skills.

And it took one whole post to prove my point.

[tpreitzel]

While I don't really have a dog in this fight I must say that it is up to each independent state what laws they want to pass for their Secretaries of State to use to determine citizenship validity. So I would say this law is needed. And yes, you can come over the top and say, "Well the Constitution states that they must be a natural born citizen", but it does not state how that is determined.

The US Constitution doesn't HAVE to explicitly state HOW a natural born citizen is determined because it's so obvious that even the Federalist Papers don't directly discuss the issue.


“The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. - Minor v. Happersett (1875)

The emphasis is mine. Again, one would think that both parties could select candidates without questionable eligibility and the answer is simple: choose only candidates who were born in the US, i.e. one of the 50 states currently, along with their parents who were born in one of the 50 states currently... ;)




Secondly, I doubt that McCain would have caught as much heat as Obama has, although there would be some that would argue he wasn't a natural born citizen. But there certainly would not have been the ridiculous smears of his ethnic background or religious preference like there was with Obama and we both know that.Mere conjecture on your part. I don't know that at all and neither do you since McCain never became POTUS. Anyone other than a neo-conservative likely hates McCain as much liberty-lovers hate Obama.



And you end your point by saying "spotless eligibility" for the candidates, but who determines that? I can guarantee that if Obama produced a long form tomorrow there would be just as many people claiming it was forged or false and we both know that.See the above and read some of the historical debate on the term, natural born citizen. I don't know that at all and neither do you since Obama hasn't produced the long form. ;)



Argue that Obama is bad for the policies he is enacting on the people, not on conspiracies.The only possible "conspiracy" are your baseless assumptions based on YOUR perceptions. Your comments reveal more about your personal views than the validity of accurately determining Obama's eligibility to be POTUS as required by the US Constitution. :)

[Stary Hickory]

The issue is not with the law. At face value a law that requires candidates to provide a long form birth certificate to get on a ballot is fine. That would help to clarify that the person attempting to get on the ballot is an actual citizen. The issue is the reason in which this is being pushed all of a sudden against President Obama. I am the furthest thing from an Obama supporter, but it is clear to even me that there is some sort of smear campaign going on against him. I tend to believe it is racially based, which I am sure people will criticize me for, but in my lifetime I have never seen a President get hit so hard with smears as Obama has. You know, living in the deep south I have heard people that believe all the nonsense, Obama is a Muslim, Obama is a terrorist, Obama cancelled the National Day of Prayer, Obama is going to have death squads that will pull the plug on granny, and it's all a bunch of bull. And most people on his board are intelligent enough to see through that crap. We understand that Obama is not a good president because of his run away spending and socialist style policies. But this is no different. The birth certificate argument is garbage. And it wouldn't matter if he produced a long form because the people that promote this junk now would just say he forged it. It's sad really.

Listen all of this attention was brought on by Obama himself. This is really sad you present him as a victim, when his defense was always a phone call away. He refuses to show the BC, he will not do it. There is a constitutional requirement that he be eligible.

Any sane person would put two and two together. There are so many people saying he was born elsewhere, there is his grandma, dead not to long after someone contacted her. There are articles, reports from before that claimed he was Kenyan born....there is so much out there to raise doubts. I looked into it and I am not sure what the deal is, I can't stand when someone is lying bold faced to the public. Looking at it objectively you see a great deal of just a complete and total hidden past. Why is this?

He is hiding something, might not even be about his birth place....but let's be honest when a presidential candidate cannot even present a legitimate BC there is some shady stuff going on. People on these boards are all over "government conspiracies", but for some reason they ignore this.....

Obama is no victim he is a dick. Had he just shown some respect for the people he claims the right to "rule" he might have not gotten "smeared". This jerkwad went straight into attack mode, blocked all access to records, there was a massive campaign of ridicule and fake BCs launched by the left, and a media blackout of something that should have been dealt with matter of factly before the elections.

[Depressed Liberator]

He didn't really bring it upon himself when he's showed a valid birth certificate and the state of Hawaii has certified it as being real and valid.

Though this doesn't matter. No argument is going to sway you, so there is no point in getting angry over people such as yourself.

[silus]

I still haven't seen anyone make the case as to why this legislation is bad.
Why is it bad to require proof of qualification for a ballot?
God, some people just don't get it.

There is nothing wrong with legislation requiring this per se, it just it serves no real purpose in the overall goal that Ron Paul works for every single day, which is why he doesn't give a damn about it. And the last time I checked this is a Ron Paul forum, so naturally the expectation is we would follow his lead in what we emphasize. Unfortunately people use this forum (and Ron Paul) as a springboard, right or wrong, for their own specific interests. Ultimately these people are fucking morons, and would prefer to earn a shallow and insignificant victory rather than work towards really changing shit. Pathetic, and sad.

[TrueFreedom]

The US Constitution doesn't HAVE to explicitly state HOW a natural born citizen is determined because it's so obvious that even the Federalist Papers don't directly discuss the issue.


“The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. - Minor v. Happersett (1875)

The emphasis is mine. Again, one would think that both parties could select candidates without questionable eligibility and the answer is simple: choose only candidates who were born in the US, i.e. one of the 50 states currently, along with their parents who were born in one of the 50 states currently... ;)



If a state legislature wants to determine a natural born citizen by a certificate of live birth or by a long form birth certificiate should be the decision of the legislature of that state. Secondly, I doubt that McCain would have caught as much heat as Obama has, although there would be some that would argue he wasn't a natural born citizen. But there certainly would not have been the ridiculous smears of his ethnic background or religious preference like there was with Obama and we both know that. And you end your point by saying "spotless eligibility" for the candidates, but who determines that? I can guarentee that if Obama produced a long form tomorrow there would be just as many people claiming it was forged or false and we both know that. Argue that Obama is bad for the policies he is enacting on the people, not on conspiracies.[/QUOTE]

Okay you are referring to a case that was to settle state law that had no emphasis on determining the definition of a natural born citizen.

The law is as follows:
All persons born in the United States, except those not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. government (such as children of ambassadors or other foreign diplomats) are citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment.[10] Additionally, under sections 301–309 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (restated in sections 1401–1409 of Title 8 of the United States Code), current U.S. law defines numerous other categories of individuals born abroad, as well as people born in most U.S. territories and possessions, as being "nationals and citizens of the United States at birth".

Therefore, this becomes a nonissue. I noticed that you decided to ignore the ample arguments against your position, such as this being one in a line of many false slanders against Obama and the idea that a long form certificate would surely lead to more conspiracy minded individuals claiming it was forged. This kind of argument when done in front of those new to the liberty movement is really damaging to the message and turns people away from and not toward, freedom.

[TrueFreedom]

Listen all of this attention was brought on by Obama himself. This is really sad you present him as a victim, when his defense was always a phone call away. He refuses to show the BC, he will not do it. There is a constitutional requirement that he be eligible.

Any sane person would put two and two together. There are so many people saying he was born elsewhere, there is his grandma, dead not to long after someone contacted her. There are articles, reports from before that claimed he was Kenyan born....there is so much out there to raise doubts. I looked into it and I am not sure what the deal is, I can't stand when someone is lying bold faced to the public. Looking at it objectively you see a great deal of just a complete and total hidden past. Why is this?

He is hiding something, might not even be about his birth place....but let's be honest when a presidential candidate cannot even present a legitimate BC there is some shady stuff going on. People on these boards are all over "government conspiracies", but for some reason they ignore this.....

Obama is no victim he is a dick. Had he just shown some respect for the people he claims the right to "rule" he might have not gotten "smeared". This jerkwad went straight into attack mode, blocked all access to records, there was a massive campaign of ridicule and fake BCs launched by the left, and a media blackout of something that should have been dealt with matter of factly before the elections.

Ok here is the problem with what you are saying. You like many others like to throw a lot of shit against a wall and hope that something sticks. If you want to sit down and break this down point by point, I would be more than happy to show you point by point why your argument is flawed. However, I have a feeling that if we attempted to do that as soon as one of your five hundred arguments was proved wrong you would throw another hundred pieces of shit against the wall. But for the sake of discussion, lets start with your first point.

"Listen all of this attention was brought on by Obama himself. This is really sad you present him as a victim, when his defense was always a phone call away. He refuses to show the BC, he will not do it. There is a constitutional requirement that he be eligible. "

He presented a certificate of his birth from the state of Hawaii. It was certified by the state to be legitimate. Therefore the state of Hawaii confirms he was born there. Hence under the fourteenth amendment he is a citizen. What's the continued beef on this point? (and only this point. don't start rambling on something else. lets end this nonsense once and for all).

[tpreitzel]

Okay you are referring to a case that was to settle state law that had no emphasis on determining the definition of a natural born citizen.The particular focus of the 1875 case (14th amendment) isn't the point in determining the historical definition of natural born citizen. The point is that common law is crystal clear on the definition of a natural born citizen and my quotation from this case simply reinforces the consensus of its definition throughout history. ;) Again, the core definition of natural born citizen is highlighted:

The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. - Minor v. Happersett (1875)




Therefore, this becomes a nonissue. I noticed that you decided to ignore the ample arguments against your position, such as this being one in a line of many false slanders against Obama and the idea that a long form certificate would surely lead to more conspiracy minded individuals claiming it was forged. This kind of argument when done in front of those new to the liberty movement is really damaging to the message and turns people away from and not toward, freedom.Wrong. The issue remains valid until this question is put to rest which can't happen at all since the commonly understood definition of natural-born citizen was ignored by both political parties. Simply, Obama should step down and apologize for seeking the POTUS and the Democratic leadership resign in disgrace. I'd insist the same for McCain and the Republican leadership if he were POTUS.

[TrueFreedom]

Mere conjecture on your part. I don't know that at all and neither do you since McCain never became POTUS. Anyone other than a neo-conservative likely hates McCain as much liberty-lovers hate Obama.

This is nonsense and we both know it. Whether or not people want to admit it, many of the earlier smears about his religious background and such were based on race. There were no such issues with McCain. The attacks against Obama have not just come from liberty lovers, but from neo-cons, conspiracy theorists of all sorts and even other democrats (see Kesha Rogers of Texas' 22nd district). There would not have been even remotely the same response to McCain. And if your only answer is, "well you don't know because McCain didn't become president" then your argument is in pretty bad shape.

See the above and read some of the historical debate on the term, natural born citizen. I don't know that at all and neither do you since Obama hasn't produced the long form. ;)

No you do know that, I proved that by posting that very thing earlier only to have the VERY NEXT POSTER say "oh well the birth certificate would be forged." If you are naive enough to believe that people wouldn't start saying that crap the moment he presented the certificate, that is your issue not mine.

The only possible "conspiracy" are your baseless assumptions based on YOUR perceptions. Your comments reveal more about your personal views than the validity of accurately determining Obama's eligibility to be POTUS as required by the US Constitution. :)[/QUOTE]

You sir have no idea about my personal views and my take on this issue is supported by more freedom lovers than the nonsense you spew. We win elections by changing people's minds and turning them on to freedom, not by spouting off bullshit conspiracy theories with no factual backing.

[TrueFreedom]

The particular focus of the 1875 case (14th amendment) isn't the point in determining the historical definition of natural born citizen. The point is that common law is crystal clear on the definition of a natural born citizen and my quotation from this case simply reinforces the consensus of its definition throughout history. ;)

No actually it reinforces nothing. A court case on a state issue and your so called "common law" definition hold no weight. THe 14th amendment states those born in the US are citizens.


Wrong. The issue remains valid until this question is put to rest which can't happen at all since the commonly understood definition of natural-born citizen was ignored by both political parties. Simply, Obama should step down and apologize for seeking the POTUS and the Democratic leadership resign in disgrace. I'd insist the same for McCain if he were POTUS.

The commonly understood definition? By who's standard? I think the 14th is fairly clear here.

[tpreitzel]

This is nonsense and we both know it. Whether or not people want to admit it, many of the earlier smears about his religious background and such were based on race. There were no such issues with McCain. The attacks against Obama have not just come from liberty lovers, but from neo-cons, conspiracy theorists of all sorts and even other democrats (see Kesha Rogers of Texas' 22nd district). There would not have been even remotely the same response to McCain. And if your only answer is, "well you don't know because McCain didn't become president" then your argument is in pretty bad shape.


Again, it's mere conjecture on your part. The only nonsense on display here is your foolish assumptions based on events which haven't even transpired. ;)



No you do know that, I proved that by posting that very thing earlier only to have the VERY NEXT POSTER say "oh well the birth certificate would be forged." If you are naive enough to believe that people wouldn't start saying that crap the moment he presented the certificate, that is your issue not mine.No, you haven't proved anything regarding some grand conspiracy concerning Obama's birth certificate which apparently exists primarily in your mind. Sure, some will question the authenticity of the long form, but some people don't necessarily equate to significant numbers.



You sir have no idea about my personal views and my take on this issue is supported by more freedom lovers than the nonsense you spew. We win elections by changing people's minds and turning them on to freedom, not by spouting off bullshit conspiracy theories with no factual backing.LOL. The only conspiracy here is your baseless nonsense (assumptions) about what MIGHT occur based on hypothetical situations.;)

[silus]

Simply, Obama should step down and apologize for seeking the POTUS and the Democratic leadership resign in disgrace. I'd insist the same for McCain if he were POTUS.
Great example of someone who has absolutely no grasp on reality. As if anyone gives a shit about what you "insist." You have no concept of power or strategy, no idea how influence is gathered, total disconnect between what you work towards and what you can accomplish... You are just a total fucking mess. Can I advise you to just STFU and follow in Ron Paul's lead. Some people just make this shit sooo much harder than it is.

[tpreitzel]

The commonly understood definition? By who's standard? I think the 14th is fairly clear here.

Duh, common law as cited by the 1875 court case. No, the 14th amendment (1868) isn't clear or necessarily consistent with the original intent of the US Constitution that natural born citizens meet the common law definition.

[TrueFreedom]

Really are you that shallow? We could poll the people on this forum and ask them "If Obama presented a birth certificate would you think it was forged and there would be plenty of people on here who would say yes." Quit living in a dreamland. Your argument of "well you dont know because it hasn't happened makes you seem ignorant friend. We both know what would happen."

This debate has become pointless because instead of actually arguing the points presented, you merely have ignored all discourse and narrowed your argument to one point, "You don't know how people would act concerning Obama's birth certificate because it hasn't happened." Fine. Maybe I just expect too much from my debates. Usually I like factual discourse. I see I won't find that here. However, I believe that those that support liberty will find much more success turning people to the message by arguing strong points such as endless wars and run away spending and not this kind of trash.

To each their own.

[TrueFreedom]

Great example of someone who has absolutely no grasp on reality. As if anyone gives a shit about what you "insist." You have no concept of power or strategy, no idea how influence is gathered, total disconnect between what you work towards and what you can accomplish... You are just a total fucking mess. Can I advise you to just STFU and follow in Ron Paul's lead. Some people just make this shit sooo much harder than it is.

This is an intelligent person.

[tpreitzel]

Great example of someone who has absolutely no grasp on reality. As if anyone gives a shit about what you "insist." You have no concept of power or strategy, no idea how influence is gathered, total disconnect between what you work towards and what you can accomplish... You are just a total fucking mess. Can I advise you to just STFU and follow in Ron Paul's lead. Some people just make this shit sooo much harder than it is.

LOL. Apparently, you're certainly qualified to speak nonsense. ;)



This is an intelligent person.

Qualified praise ... Either birds of a feather or feathers of the same bird. :)

[tpreitzel]

Really are you that shallow? We could poll the people on this forum and ask them "If Obama presented a birth certificate would you think it was forged and there would be plenty of people on here who would say yes." Quit living in a dreamland. Your argument of "well you dont know because it hasn't happened makes you seem ignorant friend. We both know what would happen."

Unfortunately for you, you're the one living in a La La land of hypothetical situations. ;) Again, "plenty of people" on RPFs selectively responding to a hypothetical situation means about as much as Ron Paul leading in a poll conducted on RPFs in a race for POTUS. :) Certainly, IF Obama produced the long form of his birth certificate, it'd have to be authenticated which goes without saying. If I tender a $100 FRN in a store, I certainly accept the likelihood that the cashier will want the bill authenticated before giving me the goods... common sense. Regardless, neither Obama nor McCain meet the common law definition of a natural born citizen.



This debate has become pointless because instead of actually arguing the points presented, you merely have ignored all discourse and narrowed your argument to one point, "You don't know how people would act concerning Obama's birth certificate because it hasn't happened." Fine. Maybe I just expect too much from my debates. Usually I like factual discourse. I see I won't find that here.

To each their own.The readers can determine for themselves which side is devoid of facts, which side relies on hypothetical situations and conspiracies, and which side ignores all legitimate discourse. True, misinterpretation of "natural born citizen" has clearly arisen due to the 14th amendment, but the historically accurate definition from the view of the signers of the US Constitution is the common law definition. Again, if Obama were a man of character, he'd simply resign the POTUS TODAY and cite the common law definition of natural born citizen as the correct interpretation of the 14th amendment for the good of the country. I'd insist the same for McCain if he were POTUS. :)


However, I believe that those that support liberty will find much more success turning people to the message by arguing strong points such as endless wars and run away spending and not this kind of trash. Defending the rule of law, i.e. a strict and accurate interpretation of the US Constitution, is apparently trash in your opinion. With your flippant and hypocritical attitude, it's no wonder the US Constitution is largely raped by political predators who engage us in "endless wars and run away spending".

[Noob]

You might check your own facts. It was not illegal for US citizens to travel to Pakistan at the time he went. There was a travel advisory (which they issue all the time) but no travel ban. There are travel advisories for parts of Mexico but it is not illegal for US citizens to travel there.

If you think that the birth anouncements in the newspaper were part of the conspiracy, then you must believe that there was a plan to make this man president even before he was born. Pretty smart deal for a girl from Iowa to come up with.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/21/obama-and-the-birthers-in-the-latest-poll/
His mom did work with Timothy Geithner's father.

[Pepsi]

The US Constitution doesn't HAVE to explicitly state HOW a natural born citizen is determined because it's so obvious that even the Federalist Papers don't directly discuss the issue.


“The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. - Minor v. Happersett (1875)

The emphasis is mine. Again, one would think that both parties could select candidates without questionable eligibility and the answer is simple: choose only candidates who were born in the US, i.e. one of the 50 states currently, along with their parents who were born in one of the 50 states currently... ;)


natural born citizens?

Governor of Louisiana Bobby Jindal both his mother and father were immigrants from India that come to America in 1970, nither were American citizens when he was born in 1971. Governor of Michigan Jennifer Granholm was born in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

smfh

[Zippyjuan]

His mom did work with Timothy Geithner's father.

The two "may have met once" after Obama was already born. She moved to Indonesia in 1967 when Obama was already six years old. Are you implying that Gaitner told them to put the notices in the Hawiian papers- before they had even the chance to meet? As for the anouncements, Standard proceedure at the time was for the hospitals to notify the papers- and if you were to compare the listings, the other names also come up in nearly the exact same order in both publications.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2008641279_geithnerprofile18.html

What neither man knew at the time, but the foundation has confirmed, is that Geithner's father, Peter Geithner, oversaw a program that Obama's mother, Stanley Ann Dunham Soetoro, had worked on. The two may even have met in Jakarta.

[Bruno]

You might check your own facts. It was not illegal for US citizens to travel to Pakistan at the time he went. There was a travel advisory (which they issue all the time) but no travel ban. There are travel advisories for parts of Mexico but it is not illegal for US citizens to travel there.

If you think that the birth anouncements in the newspaper were part of the conspiracy, then you must believe that there was a plan to make this man president even before he was born. Pretty smart deal for a girl from Iowa to come up with.

As I have said before, the pope could certify the long form and birthers would still claim it is a fake. There may be reasons to not like Obama and the job he is doing as president, but the birther thing will do nothing but waste time. Raise the subject in a political conversation and people will reject the rest of what you say. Unless you are talking to another birther. So keep raising it and people will continue to ignore you.

New survey shows 20% believe he was born someplace else and 23% don't know or don't care. http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/21/obama-and-the-birthers-in-the-latest-poll/

What's your point?

http://www.morganquitno.com/edrank.htm

And I wouldn't believe anything the Pope certified, anyway.

[daviddee]

...

[Bruno]

And you touch on a point so few care to realize or discuss.

Obama's mother was banging a black man in the 1960s, was living on Hawaii, etc etc. Essentially out of control, left wing whack job... Not high on the list for those who orderly figure out a situation until it has either happened or is too late.

With the above said, why is it so hard to believe:

1. She stayed in Kenya too long and could not fly home.
2. She had Obama in Kenya
3. She realized, at that point, it was going to be a nightmare getting him citizenship ($$$, time, etc).
4. She calls her mother, who most likely was cleaning up after her for her entire life, who went into overdrive to start putting everything in place.
5. Phone call made to paper, phone call made to city hall (My grandson was born at home), etc.

To believe that Obama chose the short form over the long form is insanity. If you are requesting a birth certificate, why request the short form? To save $5?

There is absolutely something on the long form birth certificate (if it exists) that Obama does not want the public to see.

highly plausible scenario