The image microsoft doesn't want you to see

[Pennsylvania]

The image Microsoft doesn't want you to see: Too tired to stay awake, the Chinese workers earning just 34p an hour

By Liz Hull and Lee Sorrell
Last updated at 12:29 AM on 18th April 2010

Showing Chinese sweatshop workers slumped over their desks with exhaustion, it is an image that Microsoft won't want the world to see.
Employed for gruelling 15-hour shifts, in appalling conditions and 86f heat, many fall asleep on their stations during their meagre ten-minute breaks.
For as little as 34p an hour, the men and women work six or seven days a week, making computer mice and web cams for the American multinational computer company.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/04/17/article-1266643-092AF3A2000005DC-426_634x777.jpg

Worn out: Some of the workers making computer accessories for Microsoft at a Chinese factory



This photo and others like it were smuggled out of the KYE Systems factory at Dongguan, China, as part of a three-year investigation by the National Labour Committee, a human rights organisation which campaigns for workers across the globe.
The mostly female workers, aged 18 to 25, work from 7.45am to 10.55pm, sometimes with 1,000 workers crammed into one 105ft by 105ft room.
They are not allowed to talk or listen to music, are forced to eat substandard meals from the factory cafeterias, have no bathroom breaks during their shifts and must clean the toilets as discipline, according to the NLC.
The workers also sleep on site, in factory dormitories, with 14 workers to a room. They must buy their own mattresses and bedding, or else sleep on 28in-wide plywood boards. They 'shower' with a sponge and a bucket.
And many of the workers, because they are young women, are regularly sexually harassed, the NLC claimed.
The organisation said that one worker was even fined for losing his finger while operating a hole punch press.
Microsoft is not the only company to outsource manufacturing to KYE, but it accounts for about 30 per cent of the factory's work, the NLC said. Companies such as Hewlett-Packard, Samsung, Foxconn, Acer, Logitech and Asus also use KYE Systems.
Microsoft, which exports much of the hardware made at the factory to America, Europe and Japan, said that it is taking the claims seriously and has begun an investigation.
One employee told the NLC: 'We are like prisoners. It seems like we live only to work - we do not work to live. We do not live a life, only work.'
The NLC's report included an account from one worker whose job consisted entirely of sticking selfadhesive rubber feet to the bottom of Microsoft computer mice.
But the monotony of sitting or standing for 12 hours, applying foot after foot to mouse after mouse, was not the worst of the worker's testimony.
It was the militaristic management and sleep deprivation that affected the worker most. 'I know I can choose not to work overtime, but if I don't work overtime then I am stuck with only 770 Chinese yuan (£72.77p) per month in basic wages,' the worker said.
'This is not nearly enough to support a family. My parents are farmers without jobs. They also do not have pensions.
'I also need to worry about getting married, which requires a lot of money. Therefore, I still push myself to continue working in spite of my exhaustion.
'When I finish my four hours of overtime, I'm extremely tired. At that time, even if someone offered me an extravagant dinner, I'd probably refuse. I just want to sleep.'
Charles Kernaghan, executive director of the NLC, said: 'It sounded like torture - the frantic pace on the assembly line, same motion over and over for the 12 hours or more of work they did.'
Microsoft said it was committed to the 'fair treatment and safety of workers'. A spokesman added: 'We are aware of the NLC report and we have commenced an investigation.

'We take these claims seriously and we will take appropriate remedial measures in regard to any findings of misconduct.'


Source (dailymail.co.uk) (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1266643/Microsofts-Chinese-workforce-tired-stay-awake.html)

[yokna7]

Hey get back to work!

[brandon]

It can't be that bad. I'd get fired for falling asleep at my desk!

[erowe1]

Microsoft should be proud of using sweat shops.

This sort of thing should shame us into getting rid of our minimum wage laws, OSHA, and every other regulation we have that prevents unemployed Americans who would like to offer their labor under such conditions from being able to do so.

[yokna7]

Microsoft should be proud of using sweat shops.

This sort of thing should shame us into getting rid of our minimum wage laws, OSHA, and every other regulation we have that prevents unemployed Americans who would like to offer their labor under such conditions from being able to do so.

Exactly..Well said sir.

[Danke]

Microsoft should be proud of using sweat shops.

This sort of thing should shame us into getting rid of our minimum wage laws, OSHA, and every other regulation we have that prevents unemployed Americans who would like to offer their labor under such conditions from being able to do so.

Ya, I hate property rights.

[RM918]

Because if these women didn't work here, clearly they'd be doctors or teachers and not, say, starve to death.

[Krugerrand]

Plus, why focus on Microsoft? The same plant probably pushes Microsoft on one day and Logitech the next. Dell has the day after that.

[pacelli]

Microsoft should be proud of using sweat shops.

This sort of thing should shame us into getting rid of our minimum wage laws, OSHA, and every other regulation we have that prevents unemployed Americans who would like to offer their labor under such conditions from being able to do so.

ding ding ding, we have a winner!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2680/4406561269_c15277d9f6_o.gif

[Brian Defferding]

Buy a Mac!

[MelissaWV]

No fair... I want to play "Heads up: Seven up" at work, too :(

This quote was a little funny to me...


'I also need to worry about getting married, which requires a lot of money. Therefore, I still push myself to continue working in spite of my exhaustion.

[specsaregood]

Buy a Mac!
FTR: Apple products are designed in california, made in taiwan, then assembled in china.

[yokna7]

Buy a Mac!

Bahahaha yea their made just down the hall. :rolleyes:

[Brian Defferding]

FTR: Apple products are designed in california, made in taiwan, then assembled in china.


Bahahaha yea their made just down the hall. :rolleyes:

I know, I'm just being a goofball :D

[Cowlesy]

It looks clean and safe.

It would be nice if everyone had highly-paid professional jobs that were 9-5, but sadly that doesn't appear to have ever been the case.

[Original_Intent]

So now instead of "dolphin safe tuna" you will be able to pay twice as much for a mouse, stamped with "no Chinese workers were forced to work in sweatshops int he production of this product". :p

[MelissaWV]

It looks clean and safe.

It would be nice if everyone had highly-paid professional jobs that were 9-5, but sadly that doesn't appear to have ever been the case.

I wouldn't judge the wage/living without knowing what the alternatives are. Is it "wrong" for companies to use such cheap labor? In a way, of course, but if it were so game-changingly bad, people wouldn't mind paying a crapload more for something made entirely slave labor free (and that's a tall order; you'd have to make sure all of your equipment and components were not made via slave labor, too). Should all of those companies pull out and tell these gals to go work elsewhere? Where are they going to work?

For that matter, why are they working? The quote I posted about working to save up to get married seems to indicate a big cultural shift, to me. They look fairly clean, they're napping, they get food, they get shelter, and no one is complaining about illness (other than the finger loss; this happened in the US, too, up until not that long ago... and routinely to children who were small enough to go in and investigate jams in machines, etc.).

If it were really that heartbreaking, no one would read the rest of the article online, because they'd shut off their computer and pitch it out the window. :rolleyes:

[Brian Defferding]

Let's see if buyers care enough to start making their purchases elsewhere in the market. As far as I know, though, I don't think there are mainstream computer brands/computer-related products that are assembled in a place that has more feasible hours for their workers.

Anyone know?

[fletcher]

Easy solution for sweatshops: get air-conditioning. Problem solved.

[RforRevolution]

I have that exact mouse!

[furface]

How ironic. I'm using a Microsoft mouse to submit this post. The picture doesn't tell the whole story. Asians tend to think or rest with their heads resting on desks. I do the same thing and have been accused of slacking by teachers when I did it in their classes.

However, the description of the conditions is appalling. That's one of the reasons I think that "free trade" is a complete myth. I don't agree with Ron Paul on this issue. We need protectionism in some form or another. Maybe in some fantasyland a capitalist system with completely free trade would work, but not the way America works. You have workers in America competing against workers with no rights being paid horrible wages working in horrible conditions. It makes absolutely no sense that such "free trade" would work.

[MelissaWV]

How ironic. I'm using a Microsoft mouse to submit this post. The picture doesn't tell the whole story. Asians tend to think or rest with their heads resting on desks. I do the same thing and have been accused of slacking by teachers when I did it in their classes.

However, the description of the conditions is appalling. That's one of the reasons I think that "free trade" is a complete myth. I don't agree with Ron Paul on this issue. We need protectionism in some form or another. Maybe in some fantasyland a capitalist system with completely free trade would work, but not the way America works. You have workers in America competing against workers with no rights being paid horrible wages working in horrible conditions. It makes absolutely no sense that such "free trade" would work.

You make decisions based on more than just price.

[Brian Defferding]

How ironic. I'm using a Microsoft mouse to submit this post. The picture doesn't tell the whole story. Asians tend to think or rest with their heads resting on desks. I do the same thing and have been accused of slacking by teachers when I did it in their classes.

However, the description of the conditions is appalling. That's one of the reasons I think that "free trade" is a complete myth. I don't agree with Ron Paul on this issue. We need protectionism in some form or another. Maybe in some fantasyland a capitalist system with completely free trade would work, but not the way America works. You have workers in America competing against workers with no rights being paid horrible wages working in horrible conditions. It makes absolutely no sense that such "free trade" would work.

What kind of protectionism do you suggest? How effective do you think it would be?

[Inkblots]

They... have no bathroom breaks during their shifts and must clean the toilets as discipline, according to the NLC.

Wait, this article is claiming they can't use the bathrooms, but they must clean the bathrooms?

Somehow I doubt that's the case, but if it were, I guess any time I needed to use the toilet I'd just get myself disciplined and use it while I was in there.

[ChaosControl]

I hate microsoft, well heck I hate most of these disgusting mega corps. Freaking sick.

[Inkblots]

However, the description of the conditions is appalling. That's one of the reasons I think that "free trade" is a complete myth. I don't agree with Ron Paul on this issue. We need protectionism in some form or another. Maybe in some fantasyland a capitalist system with completely free trade would work, but not the way America works. You have workers in America competing against workers with no rights being paid horrible wages working in horrible conditions. It makes absolutely no sense that such "free trade" would work.

You do realize that there's such a mad clamor among the Chinese peasantry to get factory jobs like this because the pay is actually better and the work safer and easier than life on their subsistence farms, right?

Why do you hate the Chinese so much, that you want to deny them even the smallest improvements in their quality of life by refusing to trade with them?

[MelissaWV]

Wait, this article is claiming they can't use the bathrooms, but they must clean the bathrooms?

Somehow I doubt that's the case, but if it were, I guess any time I needed to use the toilet I'd just get myself disciplined and use it while I was in there.

The accusation is that they cannot use the bathrooms during their shifts. Can they use them during breaks? Can they use them during mealtimes? Why do the bathrooms need cleaning if they're hardly used...

The article looks like another slanted "expose" of foreign work conditions without revealing every side of the story, but what does one ever expect....

[ChaosControl]

but if it were so game-changingly bad, people wouldn't mind paying a crapload more for something made entirely slave labor free

The problem here is people are selfish, they couldn't care less about others if it means it actually impacts their own financial position.

The other problem is it can be rather difficult to find American made products, every store, whether its chinamart or macys or whatever sells mostly made in china stuff. We do so little production here anymore...

[specsaregood]

True dat. I've also gotten internet violations for visiting this website and lewrockwell.

What was your previous username here?

[Brian Defferding]

The problem here is people are selfish, they couldn't care less about others if it means it actually impacts their own financial position.

The other problem is it can be rather difficult to find American made products, every store, whether its chinamart or macys or whatever sells mostly made in china stuff. We do so little production here anymore...

And if we did do that kind of production here, the cost would skyrocket because the overhead expenses would likely spike (from labor costs to running the factory), and the production rate would probably drop with little quality difference. That's why everything we buy is made in China or Taiwan. If you want to have all production in the USA, be careful what you ask for.

[MelissaWV]

And if we did do that kind of production here, the cost would skyrocket because the overhead expenses would likely spike, and the production rate would probably drop with little quality difference. From labor costs to running the factory. That's why everything we buy is made in China or Taiwan. If you want to all production in the USA, be careful what you ask for.

"My union says I get two paid 15 minute breaks. My union says I have to be provided parking such that I won't get wet walking to my car if it rains. My union says I get an hour lunch. My union says I need to be paid $35 per hour to do what I'm sure you could find someone to do for $15 per hour, probably with the same qualifications and with a lot more motivation. My union says the keyboards aren't ergonomic enough. OSHA says I need a safer work environment. My union says I don't have to lift boxes over 30 pounds...."

...

Why are all the jobs leaving?!?!? Government, please help!

[pcosmar]

As much as I hate factory work (boring ,mindless, repetition), I would welcome it at this point. However there is none available. Thank you NAFTA, EPA and various Government regulations, all the production has been shipped elsewhere.
Perhaps is there was some production here I could fix the cars for those that had money to spend.
:(

"My union says
Oh yeah, Thank you . That too.
:(

[Brian Defferding]

"My union says I get two paid 15 minute breaks. My union says I have to be provided parking such that I won't get wet walking to my car if it rains. My union says I get an hour lunch. My union says I need to be paid $35 per hour to do what I'm sure you could find someone to do for $15 per hour, probably with the same qualifications and with a lot more motivation. My union says the keyboards aren't ergonomic enough. OSHA says I need a safer work environment. My union says I don't have to lift boxes over 30 pounds...."

...

Why are all the jobs leaving?!?!? Government, please help!

Bingo. A good part of Americans and their politicians, I hate to admit, believe they are "entitled to a decent wage" under "government approved safe working environments" with "decent working hours" providing "proper health insurance that doesn't gouge our pockets." All of those things are debatable at best in the first place, but when they get what they feel they are entitled for, the cost just continues to grow.

And they wonder why production is shipped overseas.

[Icymudpuppy]

Until they invent Star Trek Transporters, or Magical Teleportation, Service trades like plumbing, electrical, HVAC, Carpentry, Pest Control, etc cannot be outsourced.

Forget College. Get an apprenticeship. I just hired a 19yo to be my apprentice. I pay him $9/hr to be my assistant, and when he is done training 2-3 months he will move to 20% commissions which if he is a good worker should earn him about $25/hr, and if he gets as good as I am, he will earn $60/hr.

[furface]

What kind of protectionism do you suggest? How effective do you think it would be?

I think the US should institution labor and environmental standards for any product that enters its shores. If a factory in China (for instance) can prove that it has a set of minimal standards for workers and it follows a set of minimal standards for not harming the environment, then we allow their products to enter.

The only people benefiting from this "free trade" system are the executives of multinationals like Microsoft and the Wall Street banks that push money around for them.

Having said that the regulation doesn't have to be done at the federal level. Federal regulation is always suspect. What should really happen is that the federal government should turn itself down maybe 20 or 30 notches and let smaller economic communities form that can make consumer decisions at the community level. Right now tax laws and other regulations make such communities difficult or impossible to form. It's the individual against the fed. Anything in between will be crushed.

[moostraks]

Until they invent Star Trek Transporters, or Magical Teleportation, Service trades like plumbing, electrical, HVAC, Carpentry, Pest Control, etc cannot be outsourced.

Forget College. Get an apprenticeship. I just hired a 19yo to be my apprentice. I pay him $9/hr to be my assistant, and when he is done training 2-3 months he will move to 20% commissions which if he is a good worker should earn him about $25/hr, and if he gets as good as I am, he will earn $60/hr.

When we are left with nothing but service sector jobs everyone will be competing for them and that will drive the price of labor down. So they will also be working for peanuts.

The only ones winning at this game right now are the globalist corporations. The corporations don't get stymied by unions anymore they just fire the whole bunch and hire elsewhere. There is no incentive for them to be here and no repercussions for them to outsource offshore.

What has suffered is quality. Try to purchase a better product. They are all competing to be the biggest corporate slumlords. There is no morals and no scruples to produce a quality product so instead we accept that refridgerators break in 7 years and a car will be unservicable before it is paid off. How about that chinese drywall in those new houses that were overinflated to begin with???

[MelissaWV]

I think the US should institution labor and environmental standards for any product that enters its shores. If a factory in China (for instance) can prove that it has a set of minimal standards for workers and it follows a set of minimal standards for not harming the environment, then we allow their products to enter.

The only people benefiting from this "free trade" system are the executives of multinationals like Microsoft and the Wall Street banks that push money around for them.

Having said that the regulation doesn't have to be done at the federal level. Federal regulation is always suspect. What should really happen is that the federal government should turn itself down maybe 20 or 30 notches and let smaller economic communities form that can make consumer decisions at the community level. Right now tax laws and other regulations make such communities difficult or impossible to form. It's the individual against the fed. Anything in between will be crushed.

You don't think the myriad contracts and negotiations that will then need to go on every time someone wants to import something will raise the price? What will happen is a bunch of products will simply no longer be available... via legit means, at least. Ah the black market. But at least no one gets hurt by a black market, right?

[furface]

What has suffered is quality. Try to purchase a better product.

I don't agree with this statement. Product quality is at historic highs. In the 1970s a car lasted maybe a few years, and 100k was a huge amount of miles for your car. Nowadays cars ship with 100k bumper to bumper warranties. They last a lot longer.

Actually product quality is one of the things that is hurting labor. Quality goes up, products last longer, less demand for labor.

The best solution is voluntary economic/monetary cooperatives. People need to be able to join an economic cooperative where they actual trade each other for goods and labor, not the multinational slavery marketed as "free trade" that we have today.

[moostraks]

I think the US should institution labor and environmental standards for any product that enters its shores. If a factory in China (for instance) can prove that it has a set of minimal standards for workers and it follows a set of minimal standards for not harming the environment, then we allow their products to enter.

The only people benefiting from this "free trade" system are the executives of multinationals like Microsoft and the Wall Street banks that push money around for them.

Having said that the regulation doesn't have to be done at the federal level. Federal regulation is always suspect. What should really happen is that the federal government should turn itself down maybe 20 or 30 notches and let smaller economic communities form that can make consumer decisions at the community level. Right now tax laws and other regulations make such communities difficult or impossible to form. It's the individual against the fed. Anything in between will be crushed.

;)If a corporation has to be of a set standard of quality within the United States then the imports must be of the same standards as well or there is no reason to institute the law except that the intention was for this to lead to globalization. This results in the vast array of people competing to produce a finite number of products would drive up the profit for the small number of global corporate owners and drive down the wages for the larger number of workers.

Workers lose, corporations win, and the ability to compete by small business owners is thwarted through the number of loopholes in order to get in the game. Therefore the competition based upon quality is irrelevant...

[erowe1]

I think the US should institution labor and environmental standards for any product that enters its shores. If a factory in China (for instance) can prove that it has a set of minimal standards for workers and it follows a set of minimal standards for not harming the environment, then we allow their products to enter.

The only people benefiting from this "free trade" system are the executives of multinationals like Microsoft and the Wall Street banks that push money around for them.

Having said that the regulation doesn't have to be done at the federal level. Federal regulation is always suspect. What should really happen is that the federal government should turn itself down maybe 20 or 30 notches and let smaller economic communities form that can make consumer decisions at the community level. Right now tax laws and other regulations make such communities difficult or impossible to form. It's the individual against the fed. Anything in between will be crushed.

I'm not where you are on this. But let me take this opportunity to point out that RP supporters who favor more trade restrictions and tariffs (and I know there are a lot who do), should love John Hostettler.

[furface]

You don't think the myriad contracts and negotiations that will then need to go on every time someone wants to import something will raise the price? What will happen is a bunch of products will simply no longer be available... via legit means, at least. Ah the black market. But at least no one gets hurt by a black market, right?

To be honest I don't know exactly what the impact would be. I can only guess. The bottom line is that American workers shouldn't have to compete against slave labor in places like China, India, Malaysia, etc.

My preferred solution is voluntary economic cooperatives.

[moostraks]

I don't agree with this statement. Product quality is at historic highs. In the 1970s a car lasted maybe a few years, and 100k was a huge amount of miles for your car. Nowadays cars ship with 100k bumper to bumper warranties. They last a lot longer.

Actually product quality is one of the things that is hurting labor. Quality goes up, products last longer, less demand for labor.

The best solution is voluntary economic/monetary cooperatives. People need to be able to join an economic cooperative where they actual trade each other for goods and labor, not the multinational slavery marketed as "free trade" that we have today.

Product quality is not at a high. Tried to purchase a decent piece of furniture lately? A refridgerator? A vaccuum cleaner. Needle in a haystack when it comes to quality.People who work for low wages and long hours do not have the loyalty that a product with a decent reputation would inspire or a company that truly respects its employees...:(

[ChaosControl]

And if we did do that kind of production here, the cost would skyrocket because the overhead expenses would likely spike (from labor costs to running the factory), and the production rate would probably drop with little quality difference. That's why everything we buy is made in China or Taiwan. If you want to have all production in the USA, be careful what you ask for.

The cost would be more since the people would be making a more fair wage instead of basically slave wages. Maybe we should just legalize slavery again so we can get things even cheaper, seems cheap prices is all people are concerned about so they should support this.

[furface]

Product quality is not at a high. Tried to purchase a decent piece of furniture lately? A refridgerator? A vaccuum cleaner. Needle in a haystack when it comes to quality.People who work for low wages and long hours do not have the loyalty that a product with a decent reputation would inspire or a company that truly respects its employees


Sorry, I just don't see it. My frig is still going strong after 10 years. Vacuum cleaner works fine. My cats have ripped up the sides of my couches, and my kids use them as trampolines, but other than that the furniture is doing fine. To be honest this sounds like unions talking up their importance.

Again, the solution is for people to be allowed to form economic cooperatives. We need to experiment with these things. I see a lot of arm chair analyzing here with very little empirical evidence. We need to let people try things out and see what works best.

[Brian Defferding]

The cost would be more since the people would be making a more fair wage instead of basically slave wages. Maybe we should just legalize slavery again so we can get things even cheaper, seems cheap prices is all people are concerned about so they should support this.

I think it's admitted laziness on the consumer. They want the prices of the product to be the same, but want better working conditions for the assemblers. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Protectionism, I think, is a very futile game. It won't accomplish much, all it will do is set up a secondary import/export market that the federal government cannot possibly crack down on unless it gets an insurmountable amount of funding (which it won't). Plus if you make it hard enough for big business, big business has the money to buck the system. For instance, they will set up a secondary company in Canada that might not have the same protectionism, and ship the China-assembled parts from Canada down to America though various distributors. Problem solved.

We just need to channel our purchases and take consumer action here. If we don't want our computer assembled by borderline slave labor conditions, find a computer geek to assemble one for you from various parts. Write a letter to Microsoft. Start an ad campaign/consumer awareness organization.

The change doesn't start with Congress, it starts - and ends - with you and me. :)

[ChaosControl]

I think it's admitted laziness on the consumer. They want the prices of the product to be the same, but want better working conditions for the assemblers. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Protectionism, I think, is a very futile game. It won't accomplish much, all it will do is set up a secondary import/export market that the federal government cannot possibly crack down on unless it gets an insurmountable amount of funding (which it won't).

We just need to channel our purchases and take consumer action here. If we don't want our computer assembled by borderline slave labor conditions, find a computer geek to assemble one for you from various parts. Write a letter to Microsoft. Start an ad campaign/consumer awareness organization.

The change doesn't start with Congress, it starts - and ends - with you and me. :)

And I don't disagree with that. I don't necessarily think government should step in, I just think that we as consumers shouldn't tolerate this kind of crap.

[Brian Defferding]

And I don't disagree with that. I don't necessarily think government should step in, I just think that we as consumers shouldn't tolerate this kind of crap.

I agree with you.

[erowe1]

The cost would be more since the people would be making a more fair wage instead of basically slave wages. Maybe we should just legalize slavery again so we can get things even cheaper, seems cheap prices is all people are concerned about so they should support this.

Slavery didn't persist just because of being legal. It was positively protected by the government. The government itself recognized slaves as property and would not let them escape, nor let any of the states give them sanctuary--the Constitution required that they be returned.

Plus, it's apples and oranges, since legalizing sweatshops is legalizing agreements between two free parties who both want to enter the arrangement. It's not kidnapping people and then shackling them somewhere to work against their wills. Employees who take those jobs choose to do it because they decide for themselves that taking those jobs would be good for them. For outsiders to oppose that is to make those people worse off, not better off.

[moostraks]

Slavery didn't persist just because of being legal. It was positively protected by the government. The government itself recognized slaves as property and would not let them escape, nor let any of the states give them sanctuary--the Constitution required that they be returned.

Plus, it's apples and oranges, since legalizing sweatshops is legalizing agreements between two free parties who both want to enter the arrangement. It's not kidnapping people and then shackling them somewhere to work against their wills. Employees who take those jobs choose to do it because they decide for themselves that taking those jobs would be good for them. For outsiders to oppose that is to make those people worse off, not better off.

Just because you don't see the tangible shackles doesn't mean they aren't there. If the only option is a job thatpays next to nothing that is better than nothing. This is what the corporate vultures pray on.

[ChaosControl]

Slavery didn't persist just because of being legal. It was positively protected by the government. The government itself recognized slaves as property and would not let them escape, nor let any of the states give them sanctuary--the Constitution required that they be returned.

Plus, it's apples and oranges, since legalizing sweatshops is legalizing agreements between two free parties who both want to enter the arrangement. It's not kidnapping people and then shackling them somewhere to work against their wills. Employees who take those jobs choose to do it because they decide for themselves that taking those jobs would be good for them. For outsiders to oppose that is to make those people worse off, not better off.

If it is starve to death or work as basically a slave, there isn't really much of a choice at all. Its like if someone has a gun to your head and tells you to do something, that isn't really much of a choice.

[winston_blade]

If it is starve to death or work as basically a slave, there isn't really much of a choice at all. Its like if someone has a gun to your head and tells you to do something, that isn't really much of a choice.

Well their choices are to work at the factories that they currently work at, prostitution, or unemployment and starvation. They are picking the best choice for themselves otherwise they wouldn't be there. Who am I to say that they can no longer work for such a small wage? That's completely their choice and should remain so.

[moostraks]

Sorry, I just don't see it. My frig is still going strong after 10 years. Vacuum cleaner works fine. My cats have ripped up the sides of my couches, and my kids use them as trampolines, but other than that the furniture is doing fine. To be honest this sounds like unions talking up their importance.

Again, the solution is for people to be allowed to form economic cooperatives. We need to experiment with these things. I see a lot of arm chair analyzing here with very little empirical evidence. We need to let people try things out and see what works best.

My fridge is from the 40's and still going strong. The one in the basement is less than 10 years old made with cheap quality parts and is sputtering and fitting. The ice maker lost its life long ago. The shelves have had the cheap pins sheared off in the first two years. So the door no longer has shelves. Cheap crap. Not a cheap fridge either!

The sofa I have from roughly the 20's is in excellent shape. the original material is still holding strong. The frame is perfect. The seats are strong and springy. the upstairs sofa is about 10 years old. We reinforced the frame. The cushoins are cheap sponge material. The fabric is threadbare. So we cover with high quality sofa covers. It will see the dump long before the downstairs sofa gets retired to be reupholstered. (if that ever needs done!)

We have owned 4 vacuums in 9 years. The next to the last one had a 10 year warranty. I paid over $400 for the priviledge of that warranty with a vacuum. Within 3 years of purchase we learned the company no longer honors the warranty because the parts do not exist to fix it. The last vacuum we bought at a cost that would be disposable in two years the average life expectancy of most market vacuums. We are removing the carpets and the vacuum will not be an issue.

Ask a good, reputable vacuum repair guy what quality the average market vacuums are now. The Vacuum Place 770-973-0774 is excellent. The owner knows vacuums backwards and forwards and loves to talk. He is the one who schooled us on the fact that most are made with sub par parts.

Contrary to your crappy little union comment, I purchase antique and vintage rather than new. If it survives till I get it odds are it will last for the duration I need it. When I have purchased new I have gotten bit almost everytime. I do not buy cheap either. If it were cheap I would know I got what I paid for. I don't get off on filling landfills.

Your experiences are not the norm and the lobbying for consumer protection and vast number of product websites with numerous claims of poor product quality speak elsewise.

[AutonomousLiberty]

YouTube - John Stossel : Sweatshops (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4M_Dez33RA)

[torchbearer]

Buy a Mac!

ever seen their sweat shops?
looks like 12 year old girls making their ipods.

[moostraks]

YouTube - John Stossel : Sweatshops (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4M_Dez33RA)

Nice corporate propaganda, but they are being exploited. Just because the improvement is above (arguably) the previous standard of living doesn't make it right.

Furthermore, it is not the americans responsibility to save the world. By strumming the heartstrings like Stossel did regarding how heartless it is not to support these sweatshops he merely allows people to feel self righteous in supporting the companies that are exploiting both their home country for the priviledge of being removed from ground zero and those they hire. If these companies want to have the priviledge of using foreign labor let them renounce their citizenship and be accountable in the countries they are 'improving'.

[Dreamofunity]

Easy solution for sweatshops: get air-conditioning. Problem solved.

I loled.

[Ninja Homer]

If it is starve to death or work as basically a slave, there isn't really much of a choice at all. Its like if someone has a gun to your head and tells you to do something, that isn't really much of a choice.

A 3rd option is for the 1.3 billion Chinese citizens to rise up and defeat communism and take back their natural human rights. Not that I don't have any sympathy for their working conditions, but I'd have a whole lot more if they'd give that a try first.

[teamrican1]

If these companies want to have the priviledge of using foreign labor let them renounce their citizenship and be accountable in the countries they are 'improving'.

Not really sure what you mean. A multinational corporation doesn't have "citizenship" and is already accountable to any country it has a factory or office in, or with which it does business. Most of these jobs the liberal press decries as "sweatshops" are actually highly sought after in the regions where they operate. They pay well, and they are indoors. Beats the hell out of working in a rice field for 16 hours where you are subject to heavy rains, relentless sun, and all sorts of pesky bugs while performing grueling manual labor and being on your feet all day.

[sratiug]

The problem with this situation is not that we do not stop it, it is that we subsidize it. Our trade agreements allow us to send cheap (with the help of farm subsidies) mass produced food overseas putting their farmers out of business forcing them to take whatever factory jobs they can get. And while we pay huge internal taxes here forcing prices of American products ever higher we have no taxes on imports, giving these imported sweatshop goods a big advantage in our market.

Replacing our all of our internal federal taxes with a flat tariff would minimize the problem.

[brandon]

If it is starve to death or work as basically a slave, there isn't really much of a choice at all. Its like if someone has a gun to your head and tells you to do something, that isn't really much of a choice.

Welcome to being a living organism on planet earth. If you want to survive, you have to work. This is true for everyone not on the government dole. The fact that you have to exert energy to survive on this planet hardly counts as slavery.

[Sentient Void]

Sounds like *waaaaay* too much knee-jerk emotional reactions going on here and not enough education in economics nor liberty. I applaud those in this thread defending liberty and the free market to such ignorant comments.

First and foremost - protectionism is never ever ever *EVER* good - for ANYONE. By instituting protectionist tariffs/regulations on other nations, for whatever reason - you're less able to buy from them and give them money in order to buy more from you. Not only that, but you would be punishing efficient production and subsidizing inferior businesses here, rewarding unproductive business. On top of that, you end up spending much more of your money on the same product as opposed to otherwise - whereas that money would have been freed up to buy other goods and services - helping to create/maintain other more productive jobs here and abroad as well. The only people being helped are those inefficient unproductive VERY few in the unproductive company(s) you're trying to help, at the expense of *EVERYONE ELSE*, domestic and foreign. Such lobbying for protectionist tariffs/regulations, naturally - is virtually always done by the industries who are hurting because they can't compete either due to bad management or restrictive/stifling govt regulations/taxes. These are the simple, basic arguments against protectionism. In the end, you're raising the costs of living for *EVERYONE*, and in turn lowering the standard of living.

Secondly, THIS :


You do realize that there's such a mad clamor among the Chinese peasantry to get factory jobs like this because the pay is actually better and the work safer and easier than life on their subsistence farms, right?

Why do you hate the Chinese so much, that you want to deny them even the smallest improvements in their quality of life by refusing to trade with them?

Thirdly, THIS VIDEO sums it up pretty well... great find! :


YouTube - John Stossel : Sweatshops (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4M_Dez33RA)

Ahhh... I love John Stossel. What a breath of fresh air amongst all the ignorant noise out there.

And, for all those SUPPOSED libertarians in this thread who are against true capitalism... this :

http://www.libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/21/four-questions-for-anti-capitalist-libertarians/

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

Shit, I used to work night shift at a data center and I would look just like them.

[erowe1]

Just because you don't see the tangible shackles doesn't mean they aren't there. If the only option is a job thatpays next to nothing that is better than nothing. This is what the corporate vultures pray on.

So the alternative is to take away someone's "only option"?

I'd call the anti-sweatshop busybodies who want to do that the vultures. Compared to those self-righteous hate mongers, the corporations giving these poor people jobs actually look pretty altruistic.

[Brian4Liberty]

We must have near slave labor so that Bill Gates can have a bigger profit margin. Gates really needs that money. Not that he wants to spend it. His vast wealth gives him the clout to attend all the global Oligarchy meetings and further his new world agenda, including pushing for the use of taxpayer money to help support all these poor, abused people in the third world. Future generations can worship at shrines to Gates and his superior business genius and limitless benevolence. :rolleyes:

[Akus]

Microsoft should be proud of using sweat shops.

This sort of thing should shame us into getting rid of our minimum wage laws, OSHA, and every other regulation we have that prevents unemployed Americans who would like to offer their labor under such conditions from being able to do so.

You do understand that if this happens, instead of DonWang, this picture will be taken in St. Louis or Phoenix, don't you?

[Akus]

Microsoft should be proud of using sweat shops.

This sort of thing should shame us into getting rid of our minimum wage laws, OSHA, and every other regulation we have that prevents unemployed Americans who would like to offer their labor under such conditions from being able to do so.

You do understand that if this happens, instead of Dongguan, this picture will be taken in St. Louis or Phoenix, don't you?

[erowe1]

You do understand that if this happens, instead of DonWang, this picture will be taken in St. Louis or Phoenix, don't you?

As it should. Right now something like 17% of our population is unemployed. Many of those unemployed people would be willing to offer their labor under conditions that are below the standards our paternalistic government allows them to offer it. This intervention on the part of the government is totally unethical. I have trouble seeing how anybody can rationalize it.

[sratiug]

Sounds like *waaaaay* too much knee-jerk emotional reactions going on here and not enough education in economics nor liberty. I applaud those in this thread defending liberty and the free market to such ignorant comments.

First and foremost - protectionism is never ever ever *EVER* good - for ANYONE. By instituting protectionist tariffs/regulations on other nations, for whatever reason - you're less able to buy from them and give them money in order to buy more from you. Not only that, but you would be punishing efficient production and subsidizing inferior businesses here, rewarding unproductive business. On top of that, you end up spending much more of your money on the same product as opposed to otherwise - whereas that money would have been freed up to buy other goods and services - helping to create/maintain other more productive jobs here and abroad as well. The only people being helped are those inefficient unproductive VERY few in the unproductive company(s) you're trying to help, at the expense of *EVERYONE ELSE*, domestic and foreign. Such lobbying for protectionist tariffs/regulations, naturally - is virtually always done by the industries who are hurting because they can't compete either due to bad management or restrictive/stifling govt regulations/taxes. These are the simple, basic arguments against protectionism. In the end, you're raising the costs of living for *EVERYONE*, and in turn lowering the standard of living.

Secondly, THIS :



Thirdly, THIS VIDEO sums it up pretty well... great find! :



Ahhh... I love John Stossel. What a breath of fresh air amongst all the ignorant noise out there.

And, for all those SUPPOSED libertarians in this thread who are against true capitalism... this :

http://www.libertarianstandard.com/2010/04/21/four-questions-for-anti-capitalist-libertarians/

If we pay internal taxes here to subsidize the situation as it is, that is even more "protectionist" than using a flat tariff. It is just that the "protection" is going to foreign corporations and foreign workers who pay no American taxes.

[moostraks]

So the alternative is to take away someone's "only option"?

I'd call the anti-sweatshop busybodies who want to do that the vultures. Compared to those self-righteous hate mongers, the corporations giving these poor people jobs actually look pretty altruistic.

I lol'd until I realized you were serious.:eek:

The solution is that the business men at the top of the food chain need the labor to produce in order for them to keep cash flow occuring. Unlike the fear mongering being professed in order to get people to accept the crap conditions or all the rich people will withdraw and go home, type a personalities need a place to vent or they drive those around them insane. They thrive on power and retiring is rarely as rewarding as being the big dog in charge for these types.

People should not be encouraged to merely crouch and lick the hand that feeds them when it has become a tyrannical monstrocity. Global corporations are vultures and not much better than the pimps these ladies were employed by prior to their freedom to work in 'sweatshops'. Just because one spouse beats you a bit less then the previous one doesn't make it right....

[Akus]

As it should. Right now something like 17% of our population is unemployed. Many of those unemployed people would be willing to offer their labor under conditions that are below the standards our paternalistic government allows them to offer it. This intervention on the part of the government is totally unethical. I have trouble seeing how anybody can rationalize it.

because it's thinly veiled slavery
because you don't have a choice if you want to work at this factory or somewhere else
because you have no opportunity to advance as an individual as you will be stamping these mice for the rest of your life

[tpreitzel]

Slap massive tariffs on the products of these multinational corporations ... products of big government everywhere. Repeal statutory law by the ton and allow local markets to become more free as corporations are dissolved voluntarily or involuntarily within our borders. The tariffs will hurt the multinational corporations while allowing localized markets to become more free, i.e. our markets won't have to contend with the products of multinational corporations subsidized by other governments.

[erowe1]

If we pay internal taxes here to subsidize the situation as it is, that is even more "protectionist" than using a flat tariff. It is just that the "protection" is going to foreign corporations and foreign workers who pay no American taxes American consumers, including businesses which employ American workers.

Fixed it.

But I agree with you. We still need to get rid of our internal taxes, and I'd take tariffs over them any day.

[MelissaWV]

Dongguan comes to terms with the new economic reality

Dongguan, the vast Pearl River Delta boomtown that became known as the “factory of the world,” is no longer booming. Factories lie empty and abandoned, shops are boarded up, building sites are silent, cafes and restaurants have hardly any customers. The city has certainly not gone bust but there can be little doubt that, for the time being at least, the good times are over.

In Tangxia, southeastern Dongguan, locals estimate that over the last year one third of the factories have closed down and one third of the township’s estimated half million migrant workers have left. Many migrants stayed in Tangxia over the Lunar New Year in the hope that jobs might open up after the holiday but in the end they packed their bags and went back to their home towns.

The only migrants who returned to Dongguan after the New Year were those who were certain of employment. Even some of those who could find jobs apparently elected to stay behind in their home towns because wages in Dongguan were no longer significantly higher than at home. Moreover, the cost of living in inland provinces was much lower than in Dongguan and by staying at home migrants could make up for lost time with their family after being separated for years on end.

The manager of recruitment centre in central Nancheng district said wages for semi-skilled and experienced workers in particular had fallen dramatically. “Someone earning 3,000 yuan a month last year could expect to get 1,500 yuan this year,” he said. One recruitment advertisement for a nurse offered only 1,400 yuan a month. Unskilled factory workers said their wages had also fallen but not by such a great margin. Assembly line workers could still earn around 1,000 yuan a month, they said. The minimum wage in Dongguan is currently frozen at 770 yuan a month, based on a 40 hour working week, or 7.4 yuan an hour for casual workers.

Today’s migrant workers are very well informed through their extensive text and email networks and clearly understand the vicissitudes of the labour market. They will not waste time and effort looking for work in places where they know there is none. As such there is no vast army of laid-off workers roaming the streets of Dongguan looking for work. Neither do those who have jobs blame the boss for their lower wages and harder conditions. Thanks to exhaustive coverage in the Chinese media, everyone knows about the global economic crisis and they generally accept that times are going to be tough for the foreseeable future. As a rule, protests have only erupted when factories have closed and workers have been laid off with several months’ wages still owing. If they still have a job, most workers seem willing, for the time being at least, to accept pay cuts. However if the salaries offered cannot a provide living wage in Dongguan, and other benefits are cut back, dissatisfaction will obviously begin to rise.

Despite the economic slowdown, many factories, especially those supplying the domestic market, are still doing well and employing large numbers of workers. Several factories in the sprawling electronics district of Liaobu township still have recruitment (zhaopin 招聘) notices posted at their main gates. They specify age and occasionally height requirements and a willingness to work hard. From time to time, small groups of migrants stop to take a look at the notices. They make inquiries about pay and conditions, call their friends on their mobile phones and decide as a group whether or not to apply.

Younger workers generally have a relatively carefree attitude are still picking and choosing which jobs to take up. Older workers, those over 30, and those with families to support are becoming increasingly desperate for work and are willing to accept anything they can get.

Security guards at factories that were hiring said that on average up to one hundred hopefuls turn up each day looking for work, sometimes more, sometimes less. At the recruitment centres, staff said the number people applying for jobs was actually down from last year.

In Tangxia, the new economic reality is exemplified by the gleaming exhibition centre in the township’s newly built administrative district on the outskirts of town, which stands in stark contrast to the dilapidated factories around it. The exhibition hall records the township’s miraculous growth over the last two decades from small town to huge industrial zone containing over 1,200 foreign funded enterprises producing a vast array of manufactured goods and services. All the economic indictors displayed in the exhibition show spectacular year-on-year growth but staff candidly admitted the figures for 2009 and would look very different.

Teachers at one of Tangxia’s adult education institutes were equally pragmatic. The number students enrolling in classes was significantly down, they said, but classes were still going ahead with students particularly keen to improve their English and computer skills. While staff at the township’s luxury Good View Hotel resort said they had not experienced a significant drop in business with many guests from Hong Kong and the mainland still arriving every weekend.

But the people who seemed most relaxed about the economic situation were three teenage workers from Fujian who had traveled by themselves to Guangdong in search of work. One had found a job at an electronic circuit board factory in Huizhou where he had worked for just six days before hoping on a bus to hang out with his friends on the streets of Tangxia. All three teenagers were aware of the difficulty of finding work but said that having fun was more important

So, basically, they're making minimum wage...

How well are people surviving in big US cities, or in electronics-heavy areas, on just minimum wage? People are competing for these "awful" jobs, just as there are still plenty of people in really dire circumstances right here at home.

For the record, if you search for positions in that region, there are a lot of skilled worker employment opportunities that are unfilled. I found several teaching posts that have ridiculously good benefits. Why isn't there an article about those? :rolleyes:

[Free Moral Agent]

We must have near slave labor so that Bill Gates can have a bigger profit margin. Gates really needs that money. Not that he wants to spend it. His vast wealth gives him the clout to attend all the global Oligarchy meetings and further his new world agenda, including pushing for the use of taxpayer money to help support all these poor, abused people in the third world. Future generations can worship at shrines to Gates and his superior business genius and limitless benevolence. :rolleyes:

+1

Yes, thank you! All the corporate apologists applauding such conditions are acting like Microsoft is operating on the line between profit and loss. Sure, the prices of these goods would rise if Gates wanted to retain the same profit margin - but certainly he and his cadre of executives could absorb the dent that comes with giving breaks or raising wages. Gates can start being philanthropic by improving the working conditions of his own company, not trying to push for more subsidies or infusing his foundations to bolster his "compassionate" image.

Just because it is legal to do so, does not make it unethical or immoral to conduct. I would ask that Gates and his customers consider this and voluntarily change the way they do business.

[Lost Myth]

It was the militaristic management and sleep deprivation that affected the worker most. 'I know I can choose not to work overtime, but if I don't work overtime then I am stuck with only 770 Chinese yuan (£72.77p) per month in basic wages,' the worker said.
'This is not nearly enough to support a family. My parents are farmers without jobs. They also do not have pensions.
'I also need to worry about getting married, which requires a lot of money. Therefore, I still push myself to continue working in spite of my exhaustion.

770 Chinese yuan is about $110 a month, which obviously is crap in the United States. But in China almost all necessities for living are significantly cheaper. When I visited there I spent on average 10 yuan ($1.30) a day on food and could have easily gotten by with 5/day if I needed to.

Also, for comparison's sake, the average Chinese farmer (which presumably was this factory worker's other career option, considering his parents are farmers) earns 3500 yuan a year, or about 300 yuan ($40) a month. There's a lot of farmers who want to leave the countryside for higher-paying factory jobs but are restricted from doing so due to immigration laws imposed by the Chinese government.

I think the key here is that the worker "can choose not to work overtime," but still does to support his parents. No one is forcing them to put in 15 hours a day, and even if they don't, I imagine their standard of living is still a significant improvement over the alternative.

[fj45lvr]

are Microsoft and Hewlett Packard "too big to fail"???

[krazy kaju]

Because if these women didn't work here, clearly they'd be doctors or teachers and not, say, starve to death.

This.

[MelissaWV]

I see a lot of people are so angry at Microsoft (and other computer companies, I might add) that they're going to tap and type away at their computers in righteous anger!

Perhaps you're also the sort of people who're angry at how cruel people are, killing cows and other animals for meat... as you chomp down on a big juicy burger :D

[AutonomousLiberty]

Why Are Wages Low in Developing Countries?
Mises Daily: Monday, December 01, 2008 by Art Carden

Low wages in developing countries are among the many sins allegedly committed by global capitalism, but few of those making the charge really stop to think about why wages are so low in some developing countries.

In his 2007 book The Myth of the Rational Voter, economist Bryan Caplan proposes an interesting thought experiment which suggests that people implicitly accept the results of competitive markets. Caplan asks if those who criticize companies that pay low wages overseas feel that they could get rich quick by investing all of their resources in overseas enterprises — specifically, enterprises in poor countries. After all, it stands to reason that if workers in developing countries are underpaid and exploited, a profit-seeking businessperson would be able to reap immediate profits by hiring the workers away from their current occupations and re-employing them elsewhere.

If people pass on the opportunity, Caplan argues, then they implicitly accept the tragic-but-nonetheless-real fact that workers in very poor countries simply are not very productive. Low wages, then, are not the product of exploitative multinational corporations but of extremely low productivity. The relevant question for those concerned about the very poor is not "how do we convince (or force) multinational corporations to pay more" but "how can we improve the productivity of the world's poorest workers?"

This is where there is room for improvement, and this improvement should come by improving contracting institutions in poor countries. I don't have the specific local or cultural knowledge to know exactly how these institutions will evolve, but socially conscious investors or activists should try to encourage the development of institutions that constrain coercion and limit fraud.

Suffice it to say that the strategy of blocking overseas investment is ineffective at its best and positively harmful at its worst. I'm willing to grant the possibility that global labor markets are monopsonistic rather than competitive, but international capital flows suggest that this is not the case.

In a study of wages and working conditions in developing countries, economists Benjamin Powell and David Skarbek found that the textile sweatshops derided by rich westerners offer higher wages and better working conditions than the alternatives in very poor countries. People in developing countries need more sweatshops rather than fewer.

http://mises.org/daily/3218

[CountryboyRonPaul]

The SHOCKING picture the Dept. of Education doesn't want you to see!


http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/juice/sleeping%20students.jpg

[moostraks]

Not really sure what you mean. A multinational corporation doesn't have "citizenship" and is already accountable to any country it has a factory or office in, or with which it does business. Most of these jobs the liberal press decries as "sweatshops" are actually highly sought after in the regions where they operate. They pay well, and they are indoors. Beats the hell out of working in a rice field for 16 hours where you are subject to heavy rains, relentless sun, and all sorts of pesky bugs while performing grueling manual labor and being on your feet all day.

Have you ever done farm work? The tediousness with which one is subjected to in a factory for a product that has been formulated to a plan for functional obsolence does not compare with the reward to producing a product that serves a need. Being on a line in near 90 degrees temperatures for 15 hours a day would make me suicidal. I have done both line work and outdoor labor and hands down would not go back to a factory unless in desperation was unable to find work elsewhere.

"Citizenship" as in american corporations which may use corporate tax shelters to shield their profits yet when the shtf they are suddenly all our burden to socialize the losses or they will extract the remaining few plants left open. Let them go ahead and remove themselves to foreign soil totally. Then deal with them as the foreign entity that they are...

[MelissaWV]

Have you ever done farm work? The tediousness with which one is subjected to in a factory for a product that has been formulated to a plan for functional obsolence does not compare with the reward to producing a product that serves a need. Being on a line in near 90 degrees temperatures for 15 hours a day would make me suicidal. I have done both line work and outdoor labor and hands down would not go back to a factory unless in desperation was unable to find work elsewhere.

"Citizenship" as in american corporations which may use corporate tax shelters to shield their profits yet when the shtf they are suddenly all our burden to socialize the losses or they will extract the remaining few plants left open. Let them go ahead and remove themselves to foreign soil totally. Then deal with them as the foreign entity that they are...

So your solution is to remove the option for those who would rather work on the line than out in the field...?

What if it were the other way around, and you were blocked from farming because some well-meaning person half a world away didn't want you to get sunburned?

[moostraks]

I see a lot of people are so angry at Microsoft (and other computer companies, I might add) that they're going to tap and type away at their computers in righteous anger!

Perhaps you're also the sort of people who're angry at how cruel people are, killing cows and other animals for meat... as you chomp down on a big juicy burger :D

:rolleyes: You're right. We should shut up and push for these companies to expand the practice. Seems like what I hear many suggesting...

Deal with where we are at and work towards an improvement seems like the best option much like those who don't go vegan but work to improve the choices available in local farmers markets by trying to beat down the laws that make factory cattle possible but make local food sales illegal.

[sratiug]

So your solution is to remove the option for those who would rather work on the line than out in the field...?

What if it were the other way around, and you were blocked from farming because some well-meaning person half a world away didn't want you to get sunburned?

Our farm subsidies and our free trade agreements contribute to the problems of these workers and cause massive illegal immigration to our country. By putting millions of small farmers out of business around the world we are endangering the very lives of everyone on the planet and causing mass starvation and suicide.

[Sentient Void]

If we pay internal taxes here to subsidize the situation as it is, that is even more "protectionist" than using a flat tariff. It is just that the "protection" is going to foreign corporations and foreign workers who pay no American taxes.

Which is why subsidies should also be cut.

[moostraks]

So your solution is to remove the option for those who would rather work on the line than out in the field...?

What if it were the other way around, and you were blocked from farming because some well-meaning person half a world away didn't want you to get sunburned?

I said them them go there in totality and become foreign corporations. I do not care to impose laws for them but expect that if there is a certain standard to be employed for american corporations with american labor then the should standard be the same for imports or there is no reason for having them in the first place other than to offshore the labor and make local competition by small business owners next to impossible.

[MelissaWV]

:rolleyes: You're right. We should shut up and push for these companies to expand the practice. Seems like what I hear many suggesting...

Deal with where we are at and work towards an improvement seems like the best option much like those who don't go vegan but work to improve the choices available in local farmers markets by trying to beat down the laws that make factory cattle possible but make local food sales illegal.

You don't seem to get it. Each time your little fingers touch a key, they are very likely supporting the labor you are typing your disdain for. You *are* supporting it, even as you talk about not supporting it. It's hypocrisy.

Improvement on whose terms, though? The economy over there sucks. People who are being paid good wages are being laid off, and people making minimum wage are unhappy with it, and people who have no jobs at all are showing up in crowds to try to get into those minimum wage jobs. Sound familiar? It's the same the world over right now, worse in some areas than in others.

It shouldn't surprise me by now that these forums are full of people who talk about the free market, and talk about peeling back regulations, but when push comes to shove want "something" done about these "immoral" people providing minimum wage jobs overseas. Most of the suggestions seem to involve more regulations, taxation, and things along those lines.

Why is it so utterly impossible to vote with one's money? Then these gals will be napping in the street (or worse) and everyone in the US can conveniently forget about them, which is obviously better than things currently are. It will, though, bring jobs back to the US (in theory) which is obviously a good thing... so long as the jobs don't get mired in all the unions and special standards and regulations to make them "acceptable." Let's just please not pretend all of this is because people are really angry about the "conditions" there. There are a lot of people around the world doing far worse, and not very many people do a thing about it.

Push back at Microsoft, but doing so from your computer is still rather silly to me.

[erowe1]

because it's thinly veiled slavery
because you don't have a choice if you want to work at this factory or somewhere else
because you have no opportunity to advance as an individual as you will be stamping these mice for the rest of your life

So let me get this straight. As you see it, these people have the choice between sweat shop and death, and you think that choice should be reduced to no sweat shop but just death?

[Sentient Void]

You know me - abolish all license requirements, minimum wage laws, child labor laws, etc.

Let the free market reign and let companies compete with eachother for productive labor through wages, work conditions, benefits etc.*

All the same tired arguments I hear against abolishing these things in our country are completely unfounded...

There's no reason to believe that if minimum wage ended tomorrow, that anyone making more than the minimum wage would get a major drop in pay. That's ridiculous. This would in fact also create MANY jobs for the unskilled, poor, etc who would otherwise not be employed at all due to high minimum wage laws... As they gain skills and reputation of good work ethic and trust over time they could negotiate higher pay or get a reference going to a competitor for higher pay, etc, over time moving up the ladder of affluence. This would also greatly lower the costs of doing business everywhere, reduce costs of living, and in turn increase standard of living for everyone, ESPECIALLY the poor. The positive ripples this would send throughout the economy are tremendous.

As for children - there's no reason to believe that the vast majority of parents would send their children to work as opposed to school, considering the parent(s) make more than enough money to take care of themselves, their children and then some as is. Also, the only children going to work would be those children whose family's are in desperate need of work for money to live, which under our current system, does more harm than good by not allowing them to do so.

As for licenses, they are merely a tool of anti-competition amongst the establishment of those in business in whatever market. The market will tell people whose skilled and whose not, at according prices, and will reintroduce apprenticeships which are more effective and more economical and foster competition better than a system of stifling licenses. Consumers would most likely buy much more often from those who have a good reputation for skill also.*

Hell, I'd love to abolish all regulations, while in the process privatize everything from roads, highways, land, rivers, lat/long areas of ocean, and allow homesteading - but then again, I'm an ancap :)

But I digress...

[moostraks]

You don't seem to get it. Each time your little fingers touch a key, they are very likely supporting the labor you are typing your disdain for. You *are* supporting it, even as you talk about not supporting it. It's hypocrisy.

Improvement on whose terms, though? The economy over there sucks. People who are being paid good wages are being laid off, and people making minimum wage are unhappy with it, and people who have no jobs at all are showing up in crowds to try to get into those minimum wage jobs. Sound familiar? It's the same the world over right now, worse in some areas than in others.

It shouldn't surprise me by now that these forums are full of people who talk about the free market, and talk about peeling back regulations, but when push comes to shove want "something" done about these "immoral" people providing minimum wage jobs overseas. Most of the suggestions seem to involve more regulations, taxation, and things along those lines.

Why is it so utterly impossible to vote with one's money? Then these gals will be napping in the street (or worse) and everyone in the US can conveniently forget about them, which is obviously better than things currently are. It will, though, bring jobs back to the US (in theory) which is obviously a good thing... so long as the jobs don't get mired in all the unions and special standards and regulations to make them "acceptable." Let's just please not pretend all of this is because people are really angry about the "conditions" there. There are a lot of people around the world doing far worse, and not very many people do a thing about it.

Push back at Microsoft, but doing so from your computer is still rather silly to me.

*curious* but how would throwing out the computer improve anything when the profit has already been realized by the company? Seems to me like a good talking point but a bit ridiculous in practice, but if we practiced it then guessin' you wouldn't have to listen to our tripe, eh???:p

Many of us do vote with our money to the extent it is possible. You don't know me nor my purchasing decisions. Don't make assumptions.

Since you seem to know so much what the real reason is then I guess I have no need for any of those companies I support in foreign nations with fair market trade positions. Since just like being racist, anti-semetics, conspiracy theorists someone else is going to label us with union protectionist thugs if we don't adhere to your reasoning.

[moostraks]

So let me get this straight. As you see it, these people have the choice between sweat shop and death, and you think that choice should be reduced to no sweat shop but just death?

There are other options.

http://www.fairtradefederation.org/index.php

http://www.serrv.org/AboutUs.aspx

http://www.brighthope.org/project_lists/jobcreation.php

[MelissaWV]

I use hyperbole a great deal, but the fact of the matter is you've already lined the evil person's pockets in these cases. My sincere apologies to anyone who might have wanted to pitch their computer out the window (though they wouldn't be able to read this) as a result. You did catch me on it, and I appreciate the levity.

It would be more accurate to say that you are not upgrading to a more ethical computer and OS and peripherals, but I'm not sure whose products those would be.

I am curious as to what companies are "fair" overseas, and what they pay. I'd also be curious as to whether those companies use any slave-labor products or components in their operations ;) What perfect companies are these, so that I may send them a "thank you" note via slave-free carrier pigeon?

The reason I brought up voting with one's dollars is that various people in this thread have bemoaned the horrible conditions, and talked about governmental "solutions" to the problem. I don't really see those as solutions. I see them as more bandaging to help people sleep better at night.

If you're supporting companies with better practices in their overseas plants, and are consciously researching such and up to speed with which are providing living wages and tangible benefits, then that's precisely what I've been talking about for quite a long time on the forums. It's to be commended. Please realize, though, that there are a whole lot of people who are looking to slam the regulations-hammer on companies because of half-information. Hell, even calling this "slave labor" is a misnomer. They're making minimum wage, which isn't great but it certainly isn't living on the street. Actually, they're living (and eating) on site instead :) Most minimum wage jobs in the United States don't really give you that option that I'm aware of, do they?

As for labeling... it was done quite a bit earlier in the thread, but not pertaining to those who are against these awful companies' practices.

From the Fair Trade website itself:


Fair wages are determined by a number of factors, including the amount of time, skill, and effort involved in production, minimum and living wages in the local context, the purchasing power in a community or area, and other costs of living in the local context. Wages are determined independently from North American wage structures and are designed to provide fair compensation based on the true cost of production.

...which goes to my observation that these workers are being paid minimum wage and given optional overtime. The whole thread is much ado about nothing.

[erowe1]

There are other options.

http://www.fairtradefederation.org/index.php

http://www.serrv.org/AboutUs.aspx

http://www.brighthope.org/project_lists/jobcreation.php

OK. So if these employees have these other options and still choose the sweat shop, who are you to tell them they can't do that?

[Akus]

So let me get this straight. As you see it, these people have the choice between sweat shop and death, and you think that choice should be reduced to no sweat shop but just death?

That is exactly what I mean. Word for word.

[jbuttell]

How ironic. I'm using a Microsoft mouse to submit this post. The picture doesn't tell the whole story. Asians tend to think or rest with their heads resting on desks. I do the same thing and have been accused of slacking by teachers when I did it in their classes.

However, the description of the conditions is appalling. That's one of the reasons I think that "free trade" is a complete myth. I don't agree with Ron Paul on this issue. We need protectionism in some form or another. Maybe in some fantasyland a capitalist system with completely free trade would work, but not the way America works. You have workers in America competing against workers with no rights being paid horrible wages working in horrible conditions. It makes absolutely no sense that such "free trade" would work.

You're right, not with how America is setup right now - with minimum wage laws and the various other related legislation that restrict companies. THAT in itself makes the whole system rigged to favor of foreign workers. It goes without saying that the chinese are extremely hard working people, but the playing field isn't exactly level. To make it fair (and i don't encourage this, just saying) the same laws would have to be imposed on the chinese workers as well, lifting their pay and limiting their hours.

[moostraks]

OK. So if these employees have these other options and still choose the sweat shop, who are you to tell them they can't do that?

The fact is the options are still few and far between...Much like things drying up in the US will result in lower living standards becoming increasingly more acceptible.

[erowe1]

The fact is the options are still few and far between...Much like things drying up in the US will result in lower living standards becoming increasingly more acceptible.

And the fact is also that, as few as the options are, you still want to make them even fewer.

[awake]

Is this a serious thread? Nice propaganda effect?

[Pennsylvania]

Is this a serious thread?

Yes. I think no matter where you stand on how to deal with deplorable working conditions, people should be aware of the fact that they exist, and also where they are taking place.

[Sentient Void]

Is this a serious thread? Nice propaganda effect?

Well - let's look at the bright side... it's a good expose as to whose a real libertarian on the forum and who isn't, despite claims.

It's very simple... libertarians should *never* be clamoring for *more government* or *more regulation* or *more taxes*. Particularly more than we have now.

[moostraks]

I use hyperbole a great deal, but the fact of the matter is you've already lined the evil person's pockets in these cases. My sincere apologies to anyone who might have wanted to pitch their computer out the window (though they wouldn't be able to read this) as a result. You did catch me on it, and I appreciate the levity.

It would be more accurate to say that you are not upgrading to a more ethical computer and OS and peripherals, but I'm not sure whose products those would be.

I am curious as to what companies are "fair" overseas, and what they pay. I'd also be curious as to whether those companies use any slave-labor products or components in their operations ;) What perfect companies are these, so that I may send them a "thank you" note via slave-free carrier pigeon?

The reason I brought up voting with one's dollars is that various people in this thread have bemoaned the horrible conditions, and talked about governmental "solutions" to the problem. I don't really see those as solutions. I see them as more bandaging to help people sleep better at night.

If you're supporting companies with better practices in their overseas plants, and are consciously researching such and up to speed with which are providing living wages and tangible benefits, then that's precisely what I've been talking about for quite a long time on the forums. It's to be commended. Please realize, though, that there are a whole lot of people who are looking to slam the regulations-hammer on companies because of half-information. Hell, even calling this "slave labor" is a misnomer. They're making minimum wage, which isn't great but it certainly isn't living on the street. Actually, they're living (and eating) on site instead :) Most minimum wage jobs in the United States don't really give you that option that I'm aware of, do they?

As for labeling... it was done quite a bit earlier in the thread, but not pertaining to those who are against these awful companies' practices.

From the Fair Trade website itself:



...which goes to my observation that these workers are being paid minimum wage and given optional overtime. The whole thread is much ado about nothing.

The lack of choices is a huge part of the problem. Which is why by naming and shaming you get the word to those who don't think about purchases until it confronts them. Then companies become inspired to develop a reputation that results in them being rewarded with customer loyalty.

The choice for primary products manufactured in an ethical (which is a debate unto itself) manner is tremendously small. However you must pick some starting point from which to operate or concede to letting the vultures win. I can't just accept the futility and not try personnally to change the little bit I can change.

I think you might be reading too much into any altruistic solution to the problem to find its shortcomings. Your analysis of the Free Trade website is an opinion. The fact that ridiculous overtime is not mandatory is a huge improvement over allowing global corporations to abuse them. Compensation should be inline with their local economy. Much the same as cost of living differences vary wages earned in the US.

I also advocate for using Etsy and ebay to ones advantage. I feel like both allow the individual to attempt to be self supporting. I think numerous laws are being imposed to limit the competition these sites allow to combat the corporate strangleholds. Once again something I vociferously oppose.


One of my favorite toy websites is:http://www.atoygarden.com/index.cfm You could try her for how she establishes her fair trade rate of reimbursement. I also tend to stick to the local artisans on etsy where you are buying from the artist. My big ticket purchases are generally antiques. So my biggest issue to tackle is the day to day products that are so difficult to track down or find ethical companies alternatives. Doesn't mean I stop trying. We eat a great deal of pasta which I can buy local manufactured. We have a local company for pizza pockets. We buy local produce whenever possible. Bit by bit we chip away at it...

People are pitting the solutions as a black and white response so they can throw stones at each other from their opposing sides. I think there are major problems and numerous ways to attack the issues. Ignoring it is the least attractive option imo.

I think my attitude is that it is either equally enforced or equally dismissed regarding all the living conditions and wage issues. We should be a country that puts our money where are mouth is and not choose to silently exploit those we cannot see while demanding the few that are employed pay for the rampant unemployment and economic devastation occuring due to companies seeking lowest wage and highest profit with no ethics.

[moostraks]

And the fact is also that, as few as the options are, you still want to make them even fewer.

Not true. I gave you alternatives. I work the options I have as I learn of them. I seek alternatives constantly. Drop the drama.

[tpreitzel]

Not true. I gave you alternatives. I work the options I have as I learn of them. I seek alternatives constantly. Drop the drama.

They won't. The drama queens of "libertarianism" simply espouse a version of globalism, i.e. corporate globalism in the name of "free" international markets. Governments have created these monsters through statutory law whether in the US or elsewhere. These corporate monsters are NOT the product of "free" markets. ;) The US needs to tend and encourage "free" (as possible through rescinding most statutory law) markets at home and discourage subsidized competition of multinational corporations from undercutting domestic markets through tariffs.

[paperplane]

FTR: Apple products are designed in california, made in taiwan, then assembled in china.

and bought by fat asses.. :o

[Shotdown1027]

Wow. Lots of economic ignorance here.

[james1906]

The founding fathers advocated tariffs, not an income tax, to fund the federal govt. With a lack of tariffs combined with an income tax, this really comes around as corporate welfare.

[sratiug]

The founding fathers advocated tariffs, not an income tax, to fund the federal govt. With a lack of tariffs combined with an income tax, this really comes around as corporate welfare.

Yes, it is amazing that so many people want to protect free trade on imports at the expense of taxing American trade to death. We are paying the bill for protecting foreign free trade. That is at least one order of magnitude worse than a flat tariff, since we'd still be paying the bill anyway but instead of only affecting our products the cost would affect everyone.

[Icymudpuppy]

When we are left with nothing but service sector jobs everyone will be competing for them and that will drive the price of labor down. So they will also be working for peanuts.

I guess it depends. Part of my service sector tradesman job involves harvesting a raw material that is in high demand in Russia and China. I make money on both ends.

[speciallyblend]

Buy a Mac!

macs are overrated. plus you have to go buy all your software again. if you have money to waste buy a mac!!

[JeNNiF00F00]

How ironic. I'm using a Microsoft mouse to submit this post. The picture doesn't tell the whole story. Asians tend to think or rest with their heads resting on desks. I do the same thing and have been accused of slacking by teachers when I did it in their classes.

However, the description of the conditions is appalling. That's one of the reasons I think that "free trade" is a complete myth. I don't agree with Ron Paul on this issue. We need protectionism in some form or another. Maybe in some fantasyland a capitalist system with completely free trade would work, but not the way America works. You have workers in America competing against workers with no rights being paid horrible wages working in horrible conditions. It makes absolutely no sense that such "free trade" would work.

Protectionism is why we take jobs overseas to places like this. Companies here cannot afford the regulations so they take it elsewhere to survive.

[BenIsForRon]

Companies here cannot afford the regulations so they take it elsewhere to survive.

Except that they're going to the place with the cheapest possible labor. They could go to mexico or brazil, could they not?

Of course they could, but they don't because they don't care about the consequences of going for the lowest possible price.

[Brian4Liberty]

We must have near slave labor so that Bill Gates can have a bigger profit margin. Gates really needs that money. Not that he wants to spend it. His vast wealth gives him the clout to attend all the global Oligarchy meetings and further his new world agenda, including pushing for the use of taxpayer money to help support all these poor, abused people in the third world. Future generations can worship at shrines to Gates and his superior business genius and limitless benevolence. :rolleyes:

Coincidentally, Bill Gates was just on American Idol talking about charity in the third world. Nothing wrong with that.

He requested a donation to his "One" Foundation, so that he could make sure that government stays "generous". You donate money to the Bill Gates Foundation so that he can take (extort) even more money from you (the taxpayer) and give it to the people of his choice. Of course St. Bill can take credit for it (and karma credits for his next life). :rolleyes:

[noxagol]

American workers expect too much from their employers. They want health insurance paid for, they want weeks of vacation paid for, they want weeks of sick time to be paid for, they want their retirement to be paid for, and on top of all that, they want to make a lot of money now. The American worker has priced themselves out of the labor market in most regards. I mean, look at the auto industry. They get paid something like 75 dollars an hour when you take benefits into account, and most of the workers are just putting a single part on and tightening a few bolts. People expect every job to support whatever lifestyle they want to live.

It really says something about how much the American worker expects to earn when it is cheaper to make something that is some 10,000 miles of water away and in order to get a product here it is made there, put on a truck shipped to a port, put on a ship, travels over the biggest ocean in the world, off loaded onto a truck, then trucked to a distro center, then trucked to another distro center, then trucked to a store where it will be finally sold.

Regulations and taxes also have a lot to do with businesses leaving, but it is mostly the mindset people have that they deserve everything in the world and to be taken care of totally by everyone else, no matter what profession they have simply because they live here in America. THAT is what is killing this country. Calvin and Hobbes comic comes to mind.

[low preference guy]

Welcome to being a living organism on planet earth. If you want to survive, you have to work. This is true for everyone not on the government dole. The fact that you have to exert energy to survive on this planet hardly counts as slavery.

Thread winner!

[low preference guy]

We must have near slave labor so that Bill Gates can have a bigger profit margin. Gates really needs that money. Not that he wants to spend it. His vast wealth gives him the clout to attend all the global Oligarchy meetings and further his new world agenda, including pushing for the use of taxpayer money to help support all these poor, abused people in the third world. Future generations can worship at shrines to Gates and his superior business genius and limitless benevolence. :rolleyes:

If you don't want Gates to have money, stop buying his products and persuade others to follow suit.

[Danke]

Wow. Lots of economic ignorance here.

http://www.deepthoughtsbyjackhandey.com/yesterday-1.asp?DayW=1

[BenIsForRon]

The problem is for the kids born in China right now. They don't have a choice. They can work 70 hours a week at one factory, or 70 hours a week at another. What are they going to do, go buy some land 500 miles away and start farming? Of course not.

I really wish we weren't supporting this system. But the question is, is it even possible to buy a computer part that was made by people with a decent standard of living?

[BenIsForRon]

Here's a petition for "gamers". We're already paying $60 a game, it wouldn't hurt to pay a few more bucks to make sure our hardware is made in humane conditions.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/gamersagainstsweatshops/signatures

[Mini-Me]

The state of this thread indicates to me that we need to unban Conza88 immediately.

[0zzy]

Wow. I'm glad there are so many grand supporters of this. FOR THIS IS CAPITALISM!

LET US PROMOTE IT TO OUR CHILDREN! WORK HERE, BE PRODUCTIVE!
really now?

[GunnyFreedom]

I don't agree with this statement. Product quality is at historic highs. In the 1970s a car lasted maybe a few years, and 100k was a huge amount of miles for your car. Nowadays cars ship with 100k bumper to bumper warranties. They last a lot longer.

Actually product quality is one of the things that is hurting labor. Quality goes up, products last longer, less demand for labor.

The best solution is voluntary economic/monetary cooperatives. People need to be able to join an economic cooperative where they actual trade each other for goods and labor, not the multinational slavery marketed as "free trade" that we have today.

Wow. I guess we live in different universes. A microwave I bought 25 years ago lasted 20 years, the one I bought 5 years ago is not long for this world. That's not the exception in my world, it's the rule. I have yet to see anything made in the last 15 years that lasts even a fraction as long as things that were made 30 years ago. And 50+ years ago it was common for cars to trip their odo. It was in the 70's when obselescence was engineered. We are only now getting back to the vehicle longevity we already had in the 50's

[Mini-Me]

Sigh...

For the record, there are a lot of reasons why Chinese workers work their asses off for almost nothing, and contrary to emotional knee-jerk reactions, it has nothing to do with "lack of regulations and minimum wage." People who know more about China can get into all the other multitude of statist policies that cumulatively destroy the consumer side of their market, but I do know one GIGANTIC factor:

Like many producer markets in the developing world, China has a severe imbalance between exports and consumption, and the Chinese government has had a long track record of deliberately ensuring things stayed this way. Because their people are starting off dirt poor, their goods fetch much higher demand/prices from consumer markets like ours (for now) than they can at home. Therefore, China exports more goods than the common people of China can really afford to export, which drastically reduces their domestic supply of goods. There's not much material wealth to go around among the common people in China's domestic economy, and that means what is going around is going for high prices relative to Chinese wages. This means that people cannot easily consume much, and/or they cannot easily save much. They have little power for wage negotiations, since pretty much everyone is in the same boat just scraping by, and nobody really has time to sit around holding out for a better offer.

It's worse than that though, and here comes the part about why the Chinese market has not quickly outgrown this kind of problem. A domestic economy that produces for its own consumption becomes more wealthy as more is produced (because more wealth is going around, not all of it disappears after one use, and increasing efficiency means more wealth starts going around even faster). An economy built on exports becomes more wealthy another way: Ordinarily, the value of the yuan would have risen with every export (because people exchange dollars, etc. for yuan to buy Chinese products), and the buying power of Chinese wage earners would therefore have cumulatively increased, day by day. Under such ordinary circumstances, Chinese wage-earners would have quickly and cumulatively increased their capacity for consumption, dramatically and cumulatively increasing their standards of living. By this point, by all rights, they should be living relatively comfortable lives. However, that's not what happened. Do you know why? Not only does China export most of their goods, but for years and years, the Chinese government and banks have been deliberately buying dollars afterwards to suppress the value of their own currency. I vaguely recall they stopped holding keeping the yuan down like this a while ago, but we're talking years and years of manipulation. This manipulation has two effects:
It makes the Chinese bankers and Chinese government extremely wealthy.
It prolongs the status quo of disproportionate exports to domestic consumption, ensuring that the gravy train for the bankers and government keeps on going...at the expense of the people.
Obviously, this makes things much harder on Chinese workers, and it keeps them in their so-far perpetual sweatshop state.

I could rail against the short-sightedness of US protectionism with respect to our own wealth as well, but I'll just let the Chinese exploitation side of the equation sink in for a bit. Protectionism is not the answer...not here, and not in China.

[Texan4Life]

YouTube - Blazing Saddles- Dock that Chink A Day's Pay for Nappin on the Job! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKmU_HpTwCs)

[BenIsForRon]

Protectionism is not the answer...not here, and not in China.

I don't see increased tariffs on Chinese goods as protectionism. There are many countries throughout Asia and South America that can produce these goods, it doesn't have to be America. But the way the elites in China have such a strangle hold over the people needs to stop. The middle class may have grown, but as you pointed out, it should have grown a lot faster.

[Mini-Me]

I don't see increased tariffs on Chinese goods as protectionism. There are many countries throughout Asia and South America that can produce these goods, it doesn't have to be America. But the way the elites in China have such a strangle hold over the people needs to stop. The middle class may have grown, but as you pointed out, it should have grown a lot faster.

Well, as I mentioned, the Chinese government supposedly stopped deliberately holding the yuan down a while back (does anyone know if this is still accurate? I don't really keep up with this stuff), and they aren't buying US Treasuries hand-over-fist like they used to, thanks to our own currency problems. Hopefully, this will allow the Chinese people to start rising up...although they've been screwed out of years of domestic growth that may be hard to get back.

I actually don't really see tariffs helping to loosen the Chinese government's hold on their people, unless nobody in the world bought Chinese, and they ended up consuming their own goods for lack of other options. Otherwise, increasing tariffs would just mean they'd take a profit hit and/or cut prices (and therefore wages). In other words, tariffs/sanctions/etc. could make things even harder on the average Chinese person. Honestly, there's very little that international powers - like the US - can do to weaken the Chinese regime...especially if you limit intervention to choices that would not have tremendous blowback or set horrendous precedents for sweeping ill-advised foreign intervention. No matter how much it sucks to see people suffer, real change in China is going to have to come from the Chinese people themselves.

Plus, tariffs would really hurt our own economy (not help, like protectionists believe): There would be a lot fewer goods on the market, and prices would be much higher at a time when people are just making ends meet. Since our producer base is so weak right now, it would take time to recover from that...especially considering we have too much inflation, too many taxes, and too many regulations for an efficient and quickly growing producer market with reasonable entry barriers for competition. However, there would be a silver lining: IF everyone in the world, not just the US, stopped buying Chinese exports, they'd eventually have to stop buying dollars, which would force the government to be fiscally responsible (lol, nevermind, they'd just monetize the debt! ;)). Finally, we REALLY, REALLY do NOT want to piss China off right now, because they hold enough of our debt to turn us into a third world country overnight (slight hyperbole). I know what it feels like to be American, because I've lived here my whole life: We feel strong, we feel invulnerable, and we feel like we can always call the shots and pressure other countries into conforming to our expectations (regardless of whether we should). The truth is, we're playing with a pretty low hand right now, aside from our military might and nukes.

There are other issues too, but those are the big ones (aside from the NAP...and even if you're not big on absolute moral principles, I've frankly concluded that tolerating government coercion in limited circumstances for the supposed "greater good" pretty much always comes back to bite us in the ass, usually because it gives the government footing for greater and greater violations).

[BenIsForRon]

The thing is, by your logic, consumers should voluntarily continue to support Chinese goods, because its beneficial to our economy and keeps Chinese wages from going down.

America needs to reduce its consumption of useless crap anyway. That's a big reason we're in this mess. I think tariffs would be a good counter weight to the competitive advantage walmart and other huge corporations get from doing business in China. Then, corporations that employ labor in countries with better human rights record would be able to step into global trade a little more.

Of course, this would cause incredible hardships for the Chinese people. But, from how I understand it, the financial reckoning is on the horizon, and the Chinese will have to deal with these problems eventually (post dollar or euro collapse).

[Mini-Me]

The thing is, by your logic, consumers should voluntarily continue to support Chinese goods, because its beneficial to our economy and keeps Chinese wages from going down.

America needs to reduce its consumption of useless crap anyway.
I think it might be unwise to paint with such a wide brush here. In the general sense I agree with you, but the biggest and most wasteful purchases that overly indebted consumers have been making for the past couple decades - expensive cars, boats, and houses - do not typically come from China. Many of us might spend too loosely on computers and electronic gadgets too, but those also often serve an important purpose in our own economy, and a huge price spike would not be helpful at this point. Moreover, rising prices on small consumer goods will hurt the poor more than anyone.

In short, we should definitely be collectively spending less, taking out less debt, etc., but raising tariffs is one hell of a destructive way to achieve that. We'd be better off starting by ending the Fed or legalizing free market currency competition, since inflation encourages borrowing and spending, whereas stable prices and deflation encourage saving. :p


That's a big reason we're in this mess. I think tariffs would be a good counter weight to the competitive advantage walmart and other huge corporations get from doing business in China. Then, corporations that employ labor in countries with better human rights record would be able to step into global trade a little more.
This may be true in the short term, but I think it's ultimately short-sighted: You're trying to get the state to fix this problem by exercising its coercive power (and therefore growing its influence over the market). Do you really think corporate welfare queens and dominant megacorporations - the ones who the federal government answers to - would not have an answer for this in turn? ;) Playing with government is like playing with fire, except that it's a few orders of magnitude more dangerous. There are much, much better ways to eliminate the advantages of huge corporations, which don't have as many side effects as tariffs, and they all involve shrinking the government's influence over the market.



Of course, this would cause incredible hardships for the Chinese people. But, from how I understand it, the financial reckoning is on the horizon, and the Chinese will have to deal with these problems eventually (post dollar or euro collapse).
If you concede that tariffs would actually cause hardships for the Chinese people (instead of easing their burden as intended), then we're down to the effects of tariffs on the US economy...which I think are questionable at best.

You may be right about the currency collapse shaking up the status quo in China, but I think it really depends on how and when it occurs. If the dollar collapses while the Chinese government is holding the bag, there are too many variables for me to consider at the moment. ;) However, if the Chinese government gets its wish of a new international [fiat] reserve currency with an international central bank first, and central banks convert their holdings, then a full collapse might take a lot longer.

[BenIsForRon]

Of course monetary reform in this country would fix a lot of things. I guess I'm solely looking at the issue of the competitive advantage corporations that deal with China have.

Every time I get into this discussion, though, I find I get myself into a loop. If the American population becomes conscious enough to demand higher tariffs for China, wouldn't they already be at the stage where they could just boycott Chinese goods (or encourage companies to push political reforms in China)? So yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at. I have no idea which route is the fastest to take away power from the Chinese corporatists.

[Mini-Me]

Of course monetary reform in this country would fix a lot of things. I guess I'm solely looking at the issue of the competitive advantage corporations that deal with China have.

Every time I get into this discussion, though, I find I get myself into a loop. If the American population becomes conscious enough to demand higher tariffs for China, wouldn't they already be at the stage where they could just boycott Chinese goods (or encourage companies to push political reforms in China)? So yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at. I have no idea which route is the fastest to take away power from the Chinese corporatists.

Just brainstorming here, but I wonder if the fastest route might be a widespread grassroots campaign to poke innumerable holes in the Great Firewall and otherwise bring a wealth of unfiltered information to the Chinese? ;) It'd probably require a lot closer geographical proximity than we have here though, and it would also require serious commitment and risks by the people doing it.

EDIT: Reflecting on this, it may actually be possible with a huge wireless network that crosses their border and bypasses their backbone lines. It'd require a significant investment and some router smuggling (or not, considering most are probably made in China!), but could you imagine the fits the CCP would have? :D Thinking about it some more, it might even be a financially viable covert campaign for Google in the long term, as a back-door into the Chinese market and payback for their hacking attempt.

[Ricky201]

I see a lot of people are so angry at Microsoft (and other computer companies, I might add) that they're going to tap and type away at their computers in righteous anger!

Perhaps you're also the sort of people who're angry at how cruel people are, killing cows and other animals for meat... as you chomp down on a big juicy burger :D

I'm not pissed at Microsoft for sweatshops...I'm more pissed off that since Bill Gates has been purchasing quite a few gaming licenses that the majority of video games suck now.

Anyways...Linux ftw.

[furface]

I'm more pissed off that since Bill Gates has been purchasing quite a few gaming licenses that the majority of video games suck now.

I'm curious as to why you think video games suck nowadays. To me it seems that it would be very hard to write a video game today because most of the concepts have already been done 100s of times.

What would make you buy a new video game? Better graphics? Topical content? Novel theme?

[Brian4Liberty]

If you don't want Gates to have money, stop buying his products and persuade others to follow suit.

I was recommending Linux to someone just yesterday...

[constituent]

Seems like cheap as shipping has gotten they oughta have all them folks working from home.

Why pay to put a roof over their heads and chance the bad publicity? I just can't make any sense out of that...

[Cowlesy]

Easy solution for sweatshops: get air-conditioning. Problem solved.

I see what you did there!

[awake]

I did not see any guns or chains in the picture. Otherwise this is protectionist propaganda.

[micahnelson]

ITT: People who think that the only rights that exist are Property Rights.

[BenIsForRon]

I did not see any guns or chains in the picture. Otherwise this is protectionist propaganda.

Yeah, it has to be one or the other :rolleyes:

The guns and chains were used against their parents and grandparents, now Microsoft is reaping the benefits

Reality is not a simple as you'd like it to be.

[awake]

"The guns and chains were used against their parents and grandparents"

Yes, well look around, governments still use guns and chains everywhere - some take different methods but they remain the same ends.

Because they were once much worse off does not mean that they will forever be that way. And as I see it, they have discovered the value of capitalism as we are discarding it.

I would not think that the totalitarian bonds you seem to think only afflict them are not to be found in Americas past and soon in her future.



The hate China bandwagon is getting bigger and bigger, and from the states perspective, not fast enough. There is strong nationalistic envy at work here; to see China take its place as a economic powerhouse is inevitable, we need not start anymore wars in poor spirit and work on getting back to freedom, working and saving if we wish to reclaim that spot.


BTW If Microsoft makes the 'evil sweat shop" profits, then there is another "evil "profit that naturally must follow. The consumers who have a copy of windows operating right now are the profiteers of the "sweat shops". Don't buy Microsoft.

[Dr.3D]

That picture was probably taken at break time. If you were tired of working and got a break, I'm sure you would take a power nap too.

[JVParkour]

Here is another video exposing Microsoft for what they have really done to 3rd world countries.

http://microsoftchina.com/ (http://yougotrickrolled.com/)

[erowe1]

This whole thread makes me want to give more money to Microsoft, not actually buy anything, but just send them a check with a note that says, "Keep up the great work."

[literatim]

YouTube - John Stossel - Sweatshops (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VaHmgoB10E)