Daily Kos slams libertarians and conservatives on wanting to return to the 1880's

[Brian Defferding]

http://www.alternet.org/story/146510/conservatives_want_to_take_america_back_to_the_188 0s?page=entire

Meat for the wolves. I'd love to read your reaction on the article. This article is the typical kind of crap many liberals constantly use in arguments when we speak of lesser regulation and free markets.

And sure enough, this idiot uses the same line I hear so much that is completely devoid of actual intelligence I almost want to explode:


The good news for Jacob is that it's not too late. It doesn't require a time machine and a trip to the 1880s to experience all the joys of this golden age he so longs for. You can reach this land of paradise with a couple of flights and a short boat ride. It's called Somalia.

Moron. So enjoying personal freedoms and personal liberty means we therefore become a military feudalist country? I want to gouge out my eyes.

[catdd]

Of course because they are progressives and they've never understood that tradition is stronger than progress.

[AuH20]

We point to Orwell's neo-feudalistic 1984 and they grab the 1880s? Sign me up for the 1880s!!!!!!!!!!

[BamaFanNKy]

Well, the fashion scene was pretty dope!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Tissot_Bridesmaid_Detail.jpg/200px-Tissot_Bridesmaid_Detail.jpg

I love how they keep referring to Somalia. Somalia has not had a consistent form of government in so long.

[RM918]

Those guys run off of smug. When the system they hold so dear collapses under its own weight, the one shred of comfort I'll be able to find is how terribly wrong these arrogant pricks will find themselves to have been.

[Brian Defferding]

Well, the fashion scene was pretty dope!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Tissot_Bridesmaid_Detail.jpg/200px-Tissot_Bridesmaid_Detail.jpg

I love how they keep referring to Somalia. Somalia has not had a consistent form of government in so long.

Well that's the problem, it seems to me the average liberal sincerely believes libertarians are no different from anarchists. I hope I'm wrong here, but that's what I have been experiencing for a long long time.

[acptulsa]

But we don't want to turn back the clock. We just want to learn from history, rather than repeat it. I mean, if mistakes were made, how does it benefit us to stand by those mistakes? Not all change turns out to be real progress.

[catdd]

Southern Belles turn me on

[Cowlesy]

Well, the fashion scene was pretty dope!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Tissot_Bridesmaid_Detail.jpg/200px-Tissot_Bridesmaid_Detail.jpg

I love how they keep referring to Somalia. Somalia has not had a consistent form of government in so long.

Live the dream!

http://www.shoebuy.com/pi/fhyin/fhyin344736_187382_jb.jpg

[AuH20]

Those guys run off of smug. When the system they hold so dear collapses under its own weight, the one shred of comfort I'll be able to find is how terribly wrong these arrogant pricks will find themselves to have been.

It's like a game of Jenga. They're so obsessed at adding pieces to the structure vertically that they can't see that the foundation it's built upon is rotting from within. Most liberals I come across are modern-day Icaruses! Fly too high to the sun with their waxed wings, only to violently crash down to earth and drown in the sea below.

[acptulsa]

It's like a game of Jenga. They're so obsessed at adding pieces to the structure vertically that they can't see that the foundation it's built upon is rotting from within. Most liberals I come across are modern-day Icaruses! Fly too high to the sun with their waxed wings, only to violently crash down to earth and drown in the sea below.

And they just don't understand why we don't want to join them on that particular ride... :rolleyes:

[Anti Federalist]

Meh, old white men this, old white men that, blah blah blah.

The fact is that the foundation of the corrupt state we're living under now, was built on the economic progress of that era. The bones are just about picked dry, however.

And while railing against conditions in the US during the 19th century, not one mention of how much better things were here than compared to other places in the world still suffering under all forms of statism and feudalism.

Typical, hypocritical "leftist" rant: "Government is great, all good things come from government, your very liberty wouldn't be possible without government".

Unless W is in charge of said government, then it's a tyrannical monster.

[BuddyRey]

You know that the main blogger on DailyCooze is a "former" CIA agent, right?

It's just establishment, welfare-warfare state agitprop. Don't let their shrill denunciations bother you; it just means we're winning.

[BamaFanNKy]

YouTube - Taco - Puttin' on the Ritz (Original Uncensored Version) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG3PnQ3tgzY)

[Anti Federalist]

You know that the main blogger on DailyCooze is a "former" CIA agent, right?

It's just establishment, welfare-warfare state agitprop. Don't let their shrill denunciations bother you; it just means we're winning.

+1

[Anti Federalist]

YouTube - Taco - Puttin' on the Ritz (Original Uncensored Version) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG3PnQ3tgzY)

I think I caught the ghey from that. :D

ETA - Wait...Why was that video "censored"? It says it's the original "uncensored" version.

Here's better:

YouTube - puttin on the ritz (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH2nQHPs4aA)

[Brian Defferding]

You know that the main blogger on DailyCooze is a "former" CIA agent, right?

It's just establishment, welfare-warfare state agitprop. Don't let their shrill denunciations bother you; it just means we're winning.

That's a good point, and you are right, however it's this massive misinformation that spread around that kinda bothers me.

[Imperial]

Of course because they are progressives and they've never understood that tradition is stronger than progress.

Why are these mutually exclusive? It is a false paradigm we cannot look at tradition and move forward at once.

[BamaFanNKy]

Ok Ok. I prefer the 1870's. They cussed more. At least on Deadwood.
YouTube - Deadwood opening credits (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B909njPoX7k)

[AuH20]

Why are these mutually exclusive? It is a false paradigm we cannot look at tradition and move forward at once.

That's what Russell Kirk stressed. Retain the core truths arduously learned by past civilizations but continue to refine the rougher edges.

[acptulsa]

Ok Ok. I prefer the 1870's. They cussed more. At least on Deadwood.

Your little joke is really pertinent satire. Most of these idiots have no clue what the 1880s really were or were really like.

[AuH20]

That's a good point, and you are right, however it's this massive misinformation that spread around that kinda bothers me.

You want to refute these buffoons? Tell them that the human condition has not changed since the 1880s. People still confront many of the very same challenges they had to deal with back then. Secondly, point out their futility in fighting the war on poverty through excessive government intervention. Despite throwing billions upon billions at the problem, the mighty government has not been able to improve the poverty rate from the 1970s!!!!!!!

[james1906]

If only I could grow a handlebar mustache.....

[acptulsa]

If only I could grow a handlebar mustache.....

There's a fine reason to turn back the clock. Who can find moustache wax these days?

[Depressed Liberator]

Ah, the good old Somalia argument. Silly strawmen.

[BamaFanNKy]

Dude looks like a pimp.
http://www.thewolverineblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Graduate-Director-Charles-Baird-1904.png

Also, anything prior to 1910 would allow you to wear this with no harsh looks:
http://www.nndb.com/people/876/000023807/charlie-chaplin.jpg

[malkusm]

The 1880's? Nah, I'd rather live in an America where the right to secede was still voluntary....the early 1850's would probably be better.

[catdd]

Originally Posted by Imperial
"Why are these mutually exclusive? It is a false paradigm we cannot look at tradition and move forward at once."

You want to look at tradition but move forward at once?
What's wrong with living in a traditional way? Why the compulsion to constantly try to improve things?

Just give me a pair of wranglers and a t-shirt, and a pipe full of Full Virginia Flake tobacco so I can sit peacefully on my front porch and listen to the cardinals sing and watch my garden grow.

[BamaFanNKy]

The 1880's? Nah, I'd rather live in an America where the right to secede was still voluntary....the early 1850's would probably be better.

I can't pull off the vest with my suit.
http://www.gentlemansemporium.com/webimages/gallery_1850s_family.gif
Plus you had the Temperance movement.

[tropicangela]

Well that's the problem, it seems to me the average liberal sincerely believes libertarians are no different from anarchists. I hope I'm wrong here, but that's what I have been experiencing for a long long time.

I've run into this too.

[Pepsi]

Well, the fashion scene was pretty dope!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Tissot_Bridesmaid_Detail.jpg/200px-Tissot_Bridesmaid_Detail.jpg

I love how they keep referring to Somalia. Somalia has not had a consistent form of government in so long.

At less people knew how to dress back than, compared to the cloths people wear today.

[Deborah K]

You know that the main blogger on DailyCooze is a "former" CIA agent, right?

It's just establishment, welfare-warfare state agitprop. Don't let their shrill denunciations bother you; it just means we're winning.

Whoa! Before you start casting aspersions on all CIA remember that Michael Scheuer was CIA for 22 years.

[Anti Federalist]

There's a fine reason to turn back the clock. Who can find moustache wax these days?

http://a1468.g.akamai.net/f/1468/580/1d/pics.Drugstore.com/prodimg/15256/200.jpg

http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=15256&catid=113484&aid=337953&aparam=clubman_moustache_wax_wi&CAWELAID=61275759

[BamaFanNKy]

I prefer "Firehouse" http://www.firehousemoustachewax.com/

Plus we already have the institute!
http://www.americanmustacheinstitute.org/

[reardenstone]

Well that's the problem, it seems to me the average liberal sincerely believes libertarians are no different from anarchists. I hope I'm wrong here, but that's what I have been experiencing for a long long time.

What's wrong with anarchists? I am not there yet, no sub for the courts or justice jury thing yet, but I am nearly there as a minarchist.

I am less dismayed by the article itself than with the fact that they would lump libertarians in with run of the mill conservatives. I don't know about you but the last time I heard Ron Paul speak, on the Larry "Ventura" King show, he was talking about social freedom and economic freedom and liberty and liberalism.

[reardenstone]

A good response their way will do more to dispel bad misrepresentations of libertarianism than doing nothing but discussing it here.

People need to understand that Glenn Beck has 0 to do with actual libertarianism.

[Brian Defferding]

Jacob responds to the Daily Kos article at Lew Rockwell's blog - give it a read!

http://www.lewrockwell.com/hornberger/hornberger179.html

[Anti Federalist]

The money quote:


Oh, one final thing, Sumner. Please don’t lump conservatives with libertarians, especially since there ain’t a dime’s worth of difference between liberals and conservatives. Both of you are statist to the core, and both of you are lovers of big government, big spending, big debt, and big inflation. And both of you are taking our nation down the road to serfdom, bankruptcy, and moral debauchery.

The only solution to the woes that you statists, both liberals and conservatives, have foisted onto our nation lies with libertarianism. Our American ancestors discovered the truth, and lots of Americans are now re-discovering it, which is precisely why you statists are so terrified.

[Brian Defferding]

John Holb at Crooked Timber has a long blog about this debate.

Starts here:
http://crookedtimber.org/2010/04/11/adventures-in-libertarian-blind-spots/

http://crookedtimber.org/2010/04/12/more-libertarianism-thread/

Diversion to mock Hayek:
http://crookedtimber.org/2010/04/12/the-road-to-where/

http://crookedtimber.org/2010/04/13/if-those-women/

The longest and craziest post of the bunch, but interesting reading:
http://crookedtimber.org/2010/04/15/libertarianism-property-rights-and-self-ownership/

What are your thoughts on some of the posts that have been said here?

[emazur]

Jacob responds to the Daily Kos article at Lew Rockwell's blog - give it a read!

http://www.lewrockwell.com/hornberger/hornberger179.html

The posts in this thread suck, so thanks for posting that :)

[moonshineplease]

Jacob responds to the Daily Kos article at Lew Rockwell's blog - give it a read!

http://www.lewrockwell.com/hornberger/hornberger179.html


Whoa! that was a breath of freshness.

[HOLLYWOOD]

Jacob responds to the Daily Kos article at Lew Rockwell's blog - give it a read!

http://www.lewrockwell.com/hornberger/hornberger179.html (http://www.lewrockwell.com/hornberger/hornberger179.html)


The epiloge is fantastic!



Oh, one final thing, Sumner. Please don’t lump conservatives with libertarians, especially since there ain’t a dime’s worth of difference between liberals and conservatives. Both of you are statist to the core, and both of you are lovers of big government, big spending, big debt, and big inflation. And both of you are taking our nation down the road to serfdom, bankruptcy, and moral debauchery.



The only solution to the woes that you statists, both liberals and conservatives, have foisted onto our nation lies with libertarianism. Our American ancestors discovered the truth, and lots of Americans are now re-discovering it, which is precisely why you statists are so terrified.

[reardenstone]

The epiloge is fantastic!

I wouldn't call it fantastic. I tend to agree more with the Wil Wilkinson article here:
http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/2010/04/09/still-not-golden/

Jacob's argument juxtaposes history and compares only one portion of the population with the next whole population. He takes the displaced Irish and freed blacks and others released but uprooted and shackled into the streets of urban centers. He is forgetting all of the agricultural people who were subsistence farmers who it could be said were poor on the mercantilism fake capitalism market, but were living fine and well fed. It was state capitalism and not a real "free market" that kickstarted an era of unprecedented growth. It was large banks who were given special favors by government.

Its disingenuous to talk about a BS free market when it was really was a subsidized state capitalism led by large family bankers, whose families were engendered from earlier colonialism and mercantilism (East India Co.?) who were favored by good ole boy tribes on the hill. This era also began the era of backdoor subsidized mechanical large extensive farming projects which displaced subsistence farmers. The Income tax law and the government subsidies for large farms later finished them off.

A lot of people here know economics and know facts and timelines in history but never bother to holistically connect materialism dots in history. Many end up worshiping incidences of a free market without condemning the state and colonialism privilege that often enable it to flourish in the first place. I want a free market but I want one that is honest and aware about the past, and one that seeks to address all wrongs of the past and preach of a bright free market alternative for the future that strips away the backdoor subsidies for entrenched colonial industries like coal and oil, and shipping to Asia (Imperial cruise?). A free market state that releases all of our proxy island territories and grants freedom to Hawaii. A free market that eradicates the continuing ties to post colonialism, past imperialism which allowed some of our biggest to continue to thrive, and then says lets start over honestly on equal footing now.


I instead offer Kevin Carson:
http://flag.blackened.net/daver/anarchism/iron_fist.html

Carson is brilliant and gets the materialism right.

[ChaosControl]

If I could have the 1880s with a few modern conveniences, sign me up.
Or even the 1850s...