View Full Version : Help, What should I do?
archangel689
04-16-2010, 10:47 PM
Anyone here know a good lawyer who knows the *** City Building code well?
I built a fence without a permit. I got a letter telling me to apply for a permit. I went and applied for the permit and the building inspector said that "we will certify your whole place for occupancy when we inspect the fence, and we'll be inspecting hand railings and smoke detectors...... I said nothing.
It also says in the letter that they will be inspecting the entire premises for code violations.
I looked through the entire city code looking for something that would allow this and found nothing. The only thing I found was for rental units and my house isn't a rental unit. The city inspector knows the house is owned by me and isn't a rental. Land lords i've talked to say it sounds like a section 8 inspection.
HELP.
BuddyRey
04-16-2010, 10:54 PM
I think you should contact the Institute for Justice. They're a libertarian legal foundation and they deal with property issues like these all the time.
http://www.ij.org/
Tell them to fuck off, it's your property and you don't need a goddamn permit.
akforme
04-16-2010, 11:23 PM
were I live they just introduced building permits for anything over 400 square feet. It's a $50.00 fee or a $100 fine. I doubt many have paid the fee in my town.
archangel689
04-17-2010, 12:21 AM
getting a lawyer to talk to seems to be nearly impossible. I think this guy is just going to try to do something by getting me to wave my rights.
I talked to a police officer friend of mine and he said to call the bar association Monday and you pay 30 bucks and get a consult with a lawyer. He says to ask for a lawyer that deals specifically with these types of issues and knows this area. He says he's going to talk to the building code / enforcement fellow for his city and see if he can get the scoop on whats going on. I am going to follow some of these suggestions here and any other additional suggestions are appreciated. I am also going to talk to some landlords i know in the area as they deal with this shit all the time. I already talked to one and he seemed to suggest and inspection was only needed for a rental. will keep updated
invisible
04-17-2010, 12:26 AM
Ok, question: is your house already on record with the city for existing code violations? That would seem to be the ONLY legal reason they would have to inspect the interior of your house. Otherwise, you should be able to fend them off, at least as far as the inside of your house goes.
There are 3 basic ways to go about this:
1) Let them take you to court for doing work without a permit. In court, you can contest the charge (you'll probably lose, since you obviously built the fence before applying for the permit), and ask them to show cause for an inspection of the interior of your house. It's probably too late to take this path, since you already applied for the permit.
2) Remove the fence, and plant a hedge of some sort of thorny bushes. However, then they could possibly try to go after you for demolition without a permit! This puts you back to the first option, and you get to bring up a 4th Amendment defense and ask them to show cause if they try to foist an interior inspection on you again.
3) The way it is supposed to work (according to most city building codes) is you apply for the permit, then do the work. The work applied for on the permit is then inspected. If the work is on the exterior of your house, then there is NO reason for them to inspect anything else. Of course they will look for other violations in the course of inspecting the work specified on the permit (more money for them, for you to apply for a second permit or amend the original permit). However, they are fishing for violations here and have no cause to suspect interior code violations (unless some are already on record with the city, and have not been corrected and inspected). Instead of waiting for them to make the first move in the courts, get a lawyer to set them straight. Yes, this will cost you even more money, but perhaps less than it would cost you to defend yourself in court or do whatever additional work they will want you to if they set foot inside your house (they WILL find violations if they want to, building codes are written so that everything is "at the discretion of the building official", so they can make up whatever they want).
City governments are getting really nasty with this sort of stuff, in attempts to solve their budget shortfalls. I'm in a somewhat similar situation myself, where the city government is attempting to force an inspection on me. My lawyer said to ignore their letter requesting an inspection until I am either ready to have the (rental) property inspected, or they get a warrant. This was months ago, and I haven't heard anything further from them. If they get more aggressive than they already are, then I'll have my lawyer get them to show cause, which as in your situation, they simply don't have. Hope this helps, good luck.
Mike4Freedom
04-17-2010, 01:59 AM
deleted
archangel689
04-17-2010, 02:38 AM
Ok, question: is your house already on record with the city for existing code violations?
On the permit application I have here there is a big check on it that says no violations and its signed and notarized with a zoning officer.
I got a good look at their file on my property. There was nothing in it except for three letters telling me to apply for a permit for a fence, a photo of the fence and an envelope from certified mail saying i got the letter.
This is the only thing that was in the file and the file was pertaining to my house address. If there were other violations I'm pretty sure they would have been in that file.
Additionally the zoning website says "An occupancy permit is required for any use of land or structures other than a single family dwelling (for example, a commercial business, a multi-unit dwelling structure, etc."
I am going to talk with a landlord that used to own about 30 houses around here and see what he says.
I'd like to know how to obtain a decent lawyer that knows the city code.
hillbilly123069
04-17-2010, 02:48 AM
www.lawyers.com/
invisible
04-17-2010, 05:10 AM
On the permit application I have here there is a big check on it that says no violations and its signed and notarized with a zoning officer.
Excellent. You actually have a copy of this? Now, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I claim to be an expert on building codes and zoning ordinances. I'm just used to doing this sort of thing, and have studied these laws closely in the places where I've bought and renovated houses myself. This here seems to be your ticket out of this mess. See below.
Additionally the zoning website says "An occupancy permit is required for any use of land or structures other than a single family dwelling (for example, a commercial business, a multi-unit dwelling structure, etc."
Excellent. Combined with the above, this would seem to get you off the hook. Rather than quote a website which can be altered at any time, you should go down to city hall and purchase the hard copy book of both the building codes and the zoning ordinance. It's really a good investment anyways, since you then know exactly what the laws are that tell you what you can and cannot do with your property. You will want to use this information (by citing the law precisely, as in "this is section 3, subsection 5, point a, third papragraph") combined with your permit application which says "no violations". Again, see below.
I'd like to know how to obtain a decent lawyer that knows the city code.
Look in the phone book and do some calling around. You want a lawyer that specializes in real estate law and land use regulations. Most of these guys deal with developers and corporations trying to change zoning classifications of a piece of property, so your case will be chump change to them. If someone dosen't think you're worth their time, ask if they can recommend someone else. You'll find someone eventually. Even a good general practice attorney will be able to deal with this, but ideally you want someone who knows these laws inside out by memory.
Archangel is a friend of mine who lives in pittsburgh as well. They are also saying he needs a certificate of occupancy. I never heard of needing that. I have bought three houses here and never heard about having to apply for one.
Now I'm not from where you live, and every city is different, but in the general case you do not need a certificate of occupancy (and thus the need for an inspection in order to be issued one) for a single family dwelling unless there are outstanding code violations on record. Having violations on record is what creates the need for a certificate of occupancy and inspection. In some areas this may be true for multiple unit buildings (such as a house divided into 2 or 3 apartments) as well. In most places, a certificate of occupancy is never actually issued, and is simply assumed unless outstanding violations are on record, in which case it is "revoked", even though it dosen't actually exist. If there have never been any violations on record, then the certificate of occupancy (and inspection) should never be needed.
Again, I'm not an attorney and make no claims of being an expert on these matters. I've simply been down this same path several times before, and am used to doing this sort of thing and dealing with these kinds of city officials. So take my advice with a grain of salt (and run it by a lawyer if at all possible), and remember that advice is only worth what you pay for it. Here's what I would do in the situation: Make two copies of your permit applicaton showing the "no violations" statement by the zoning officer. Make two copies of the zoning ordinance that says a certificate of occupancy is not needed for a single family dwelling. Write in a letter (make two copies) explaining what you will say verbally (see below) to the city officials. Make an appointment (these guys are usually very difficult to catch by just walking into their offices) with the city official who is claiming you need an inspection, and bring him a set of copies in person. Point out to him that you have no violations on record, and that it says so right on your permit application. Point out that according to (cite the EXACT section, subsection, paragraph, etc of the law here) the city codes, you do NOT need a certificate of occupancy since you have a single family dwelling with no outstanding violations. Request that the copies you provide be placed in your file, along with your letter explaining your position in writing. Politely explain that unless they show cause, their request for an inspection of any work unrelated to the permit application is denied. Next, go to the head of the department (the boss of whoever is trying to hassle you for an unneeded inspection and certificate of occupancy) and do the same thing. This time, additionally explain that you feel that the lower official is in error, and you would like to straighten the matter out immediately. Explain how your conversation went with the lower official. The best way to deal with city officials like this is to demonstrate an understanding of the applicable laws, and show that you are making an effort to cooperate and comply with them. Be firm and polite, no matter how big of an asshole they may be (these guys are almost always authoritarian assholes, who enjoy shoving people around). Don't argue with them, that's what a lawyer is for. If you show them that you are trying to cooperate and play their game, that's usually what they want to see and they are a LOT easier to deal with. If you make them mad or cause them not to like you, they will make your life hell, as you have already discovered they can. If this does not get you results, then hire a lawyer immediately. If you have the documentation mentioned above, you should be able to back them off without a lawyer.
And one final piece of advice:
envelope from certified mail saying i got the letter.
Mistake #1, right there. Never accept a certified or registered letter! They never contain money or good news. If someone wants to send you something by this method, make them do it the hard way by delivering it in person (rule #2 is never answer the door unless you are expecting someone and / or know who it is).
Another thing I might mention is that building codes and zoning ordinances are two different things, but are closely related. Building codes are a set of safety and construction standards. Zoning ordinances are a set of land use regulations (to tell you what you can and cannot do with your property). Generally speaking, building codes follow a set of construction industry standards called BOCA. You will see most building codes simply say "as per BOCA" or "according to BOCA", and specify where the local codes deviate from the BOCA code. You can usually get a copy of the BOCA code at the reference desk of any library of decent size (it's pronounced "bow-kuh", with a hard c. the person at the reference desk will know exactly what you want). Zoning ordinances don't follow any standard like building codes follow BOCA (and National Electric Code and International Plumbing / Mechanical Code), but are usually pretty similar for the most part from city to city, although some are more lax than others, or don't even exist at all in some areas (you're damn lucky if that is the case where you live!). It is wise to always consult these laws before doing anything to your property, not only to avoid hassles with city hall, but also in the interest of your personal safety and that of your property. Although zoning ordinances are arbitrary, worthless, and absolutely repulsive to libertarian ideals, building codes exist for a good reason: they are a set of standards developed within the building trades over many years and ensure that a structure is safe, so there is reason to follow them besides it being yet another set of laws.
And oh yes, I almost forgot:
I think you should contact the Institute for Justice.
Forget it. They're worthless. I was falsely arrested and my property stolen by cops and could prove it according to their own documents. Neither them, the ACLU, or any lawyers were interested because I was white and didn't get the shit beat out of me (I was actually told that, too!).
Tell them to fuck off, it's your property and you don't need a goddamn permit.
I really wish that would actually work, as it would obviously be the best case solution to the problem! Only problem is that that dosen't work, and eventually results in thugs with guns coming after you.
nobody's_hero
04-17-2010, 05:28 AM
Make the fence electric and lock the gate when the building inspector comes by.
:D
ivflight
04-17-2010, 06:01 AM
I ran into a similar problem a few years back, except then I was stupid enough to let them into my house where they saw more work I had done (they put a stop work order on my door, which frightened me into complying). After that they kept after me about applying for permits and getting everything inspected. I kept delaying and deferring, delaying and deferring, always being polite and responsive, but saying I was too busy or that I wanted to finalize my work plans before applying for the permits. After about a year of this they just forgot about me. For a while I was afraid that they were going to pounce on me at some inopportune time, but now it's been almost three years and the inspectors have been through thousands of other homes and there is no way they remember me anymore.
This method might yield better results than the "fuck off" method, and at the very least will buy you some time.
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