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free1
04-15-2010, 07:29 PM
On August 8, 2005 President Bush mandated its extraction. None of it has been extracted.

- 8-times as much oil as Saudi Arabia
- 18-times as much oil as Iraq
- 21-times as much oil as Kuwait
- 22-times as much oil as Iran
- 500-times as much oil as Yemen

WTF????

They reported this stunning news: We have more oil inside our borders, than all the other proven reserves on earth.

Because this is light, sweet oil, those billions of barrels will cost Americans just $16 PER BARREL!

The Bakken is the largest domestic oil discovery since Alaska's Prudhoe Bay and has the potential to eliminate all American dependence on foreign oil.

Hidden 1,000 feet beneath the surface of the Rocky Mountains lies the largest untapped oil reserve in the world. It's a formation known as the Williston Basin, but is more commonly referred to as the 'Bakken.'

I've personally seen oil wells in the middle of houses in LA city. WTF? They can't drill where there's no one?

Google it.

RM918
04-15-2010, 07:34 PM
From what I've seen, the '500 billion barrel' estimate was done 10-15 years ago by someone who wasn't peer reviewed, the recent USGS estimates put it more around 4-5 billion barrels.

charrob
04-15-2010, 08:59 PM
then why in heaven's name is obama drilling off the east coast of the U.S. which contains less than .01 percent of the oil this nation uses on a daily basis?

drilling has been proven to continually excrete leaks into the ocean and cause death and disease to wildlife in addition to destroying beaches (as well as all the businesses associated with those beaches). the east coast (unlike the west coast) is also lined with vital wetlands and wildlife habitats. So lets pillage and destroy the natural beauty of our country and wildlife for what reason? By the looks of things in this country we are currently experiencing a glut rather than a shortage!

this is not worth it:

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs371.snc3/23828_116431551703804_100000108791083_292824_45136 3_s.jpg

purplechoe
04-15-2010, 09:14 PM
Montana? There is oil ALL over the place in the USA... They just don't drill here to keep us engaged in the Middle East...

IPSecure
04-15-2010, 09:17 PM
3 to 4.3 Billion Barrels of Technically Recoverable Oil Assessed in North Dakota and Montana’s Bakken Formation—25 Times More Than 1995 Estimate—

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1911 (http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1911)

TER
04-15-2010, 09:30 PM
is this shale (?sp) oil? I've read that gathering this oil is not practical. :confused:

Anti Federalist
04-15-2010, 09:42 PM
then why in heaven's name is obama drilling off the east coast of the U.S. which contains less than .01 percent of the oil this nation uses on a daily basis?

drilling has been proven to continually excrete leaks into the ocean and cause death and disease to wildlife in addition to destroying beaches (as well as all the businesses associated with those beaches). the east coast (unlike the west coast) is also lined with vital wetlands and wildlife habitats. So lets pillage and destroy the natural beauty of our country and wildlife for what reason? By the looks of things in this country we are currently experiencing a glut rather than a shortage!

this is not worth it:

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs371.snc3/23828_116431551703804_100000108791083_292824_45136 3_s.jpg

Humbug.

I'm in the offshore oil drilling business and was a commercial fishermen for years before that.

The two most productive commercial fishing areas in the country also happen to be the only places offshore oil drilling is "allowed"

Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico.

If offshore operations were the polluting monster some make them out to be, then fishing certainly would not be as good as it is.

The steps taken to prevent spills are voluminous and a priority in any operation.

sevin
04-15-2010, 10:09 PM
They're saving that oil for later. Control the supply, keep prices high.

charrob
04-15-2010, 10:21 PM
Humbug.

I'm in the offshore oil drilling business and was a commercial fishermen for years before that.

The two most productive commercial fishing areas in the country also happen to be the only places offshore oil drilling is "allowed"

Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico.

If offshore operations were the polluting monster some make them out to be, then fishing certainly would not be as good as it is.

The steps taken to prevent spills are voluminous and a priority in any operation.

it's hard to know the full truth about anything anymore without really researching...here's some info. found from one source that discussed offshore drilling... it would be nice to see literature debating what has been said:

IMPACTS OF OFFSHORE DRILLING

Offshore drilling operations create various forms of pollution that have considerable impacts on marine and other wildlife. These include:

1) drilling muds,

Drilling muds are used for the lubrication and cooling of the drill bit and pipe. The muds also remove the cuttings that come from the bottom of the oil well and help prevent blowouts by acting as a sealant. There are different types of drilling muds used in oil drilling operations, but all release toxic chemicals that can affect marine life. One drilling platform normally drills between seventy and one-hundred wells and discharges more than 90,000 metric tons of drilling fluids and metal cuttings into the ocean.One well can potentially affect an area of a one kilometer (approximately two-thirds of a mile) radius through the discharge of these materials. Experimental studies suggest that chemicals dumped in the ocean from oil operations can stunt the growth of fish and affect their breeding patterns. For example, cod exposed to this waste water had smaller eggs and delayed spawning time.

2) produced water,

Produced Water Produced water is fluid trapped underground and brought up with oil and gas. It makes up about 20 percent of the waste associated with offshore drilling. Produced waters usually have an oil content of 30 to 40 parts per million. As a result, the nearly 2 billion gallons of produced water released into the Cook Inlet in Alaska each year, contain about 70,000 gallons of oil.


Drilling muds and produced water are disposed of daily by offshore rigs. Drilling muds and produced water discharged from oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico released mercury and other heavy metals into the ocean. Additionally, offshore rigs dump tons of:

3) drilling fluid,

4) metal cuttings, including toxic metals, such as lead chromium and mercury,
Drilling activity around oil rigs is suspected of contributing to elevated levels of mercury in Gulf of Mexico fish.

5) as well as carcinogens, such as benzene, into the ocean.

Additional drilling operations creating various forms of pollution that have considerable impacts on marine and other wildlife include:

6) brine wastes,
7) deck runoff water, and
8) flowline and pipeline leaks.
9) Catastrophic spills and blowouts are also a threat from offshore drilling operations.



Exploration:
Factors other than pollutants can affect marine wildlife as well. Impacts from oil begin with the exploration process. Exploration for offshore oil involves firing air guns which send a strong shock across the seabed that can decrease fish catch, damage the hearing capacity of various marine species and lead to marine mammal strandings. (Defn: strandings: instances when marine animals come ashore alive under abnormal circumstances, are injured close to shore, or wash ashore dead, whether individually or in groups. ie. Dolphins depend entirely on hearing to survive as their sight is limited.) These sonic shockwaves used to locate likely oil-bearing formations produce the loudest man-made noises on earth.

http://na.oceana.org/sites/default/files/o/fileadmin/oceana/uploads/Climate_Change/Toxic_Legacy/Toxic_Legacy_FINAL_Summary.pdf

Anti Federalist
04-15-2010, 10:36 PM
it's hard to know the full truth about anything

1) drilling muds,

Drilling muds are used for the lubrication and cooling of the drill bit and pipe. The muds also remove the cuttings that come from the bottom of the oil well and help prevent blowouts by acting as a sealant. There are different types of drilling muds used in oil drilling operations, but all release toxic chemicals that can affect marine life. One drilling platform normally drills between seventy and one-hundred wells and discharges more than 90,000 metric tons of drilling fluids and metal cuttings into the ocean.One well can potentially affect an area of a one kilometer (approximately two-thirds of a mile) radius through the discharge of these materials. Experimental studies suggest that chemicals dumped in the ocean from oil operations can stunt the growth of fish and affect their breeding patterns. For example, cod exposed to this waste water had smaller eggs and delayed spawning time.



2) produced water,

Produced Water Produced water is fluid trapped underground and brought up with oil and gas. It makes up about 20 percent of the waste associated with offshore drilling. Produced waters usually have an oil content of 30 to 40 parts per million. As a result, the nearly 2 billion gallons of produced water released into the Cook Inlet in Alaska each year, contain about 70,000 gallons of oil.


Drilling muds and produced water are disposed of daily by offshore rigs. Drilling muds and produced water discharged from oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico released mercury and other heavy metals into the ocean. Additionally, offshore rigs dump tons of:

3) drilling fluid,

4) metal cuttings, including toxic metals, such as lead chromium and mercury,
Drilling activity around oil rigs is suspected of contributing to elevated levels of mercury in Gulf of Mexico fish.

5) as well as carcinogens, such as benzene, into the ocean.

Additional drilling operations creating various forms of pollution that have considerable impacts on marine and other wildlife include:

6) brine wastes,
7) deck runoff water, and
8) flowline and pipeline leaks.
9) Catastrophic spills and blowouts are also a threat from offshore drilling operations.



Exploration:
Factors other than pollutants can affect marine wildlife as well. Impacts from oil begin with the exploration process. Exploration for offshore oil involves firing air guns which send a strong shock across the seabed that can decrease fish catch, damage the hearing capacity of various marine species and lead to marine mammal strandings. (Defn: strandings: instances when marine animals come ashore alive under abnormal circumstances, are injured close to shore, or wash ashore dead, whether individually or in groups. ie. Dolphins depend entirely on hearing to survive as their sight is limited.) These sonic shockwaves used to locate likely oil-bearing formations produce the loudest man-made noises on earth.

http://na.oceana.org/sites/default/files/o/fileadmin/oceana/uploads/Climate_Change/Toxic_Legacy/Toxic_Legacy_FINAL_Summary.pdf


Every project that I am involved in is zero discharge.

No drilling muds or completion fluids of any kind or amount go overboard.

No discharges of any kind go overboard from my vessel other than fully treated wastewater.

I'm on my way to bed, I'll comment more tommorrow.

charrob
04-15-2010, 10:56 PM
Every project that I am involved in is zero discharge.

No drilling muds or completion fluids of any kind or amount go overboard.

No discharges of any kind go overboard from my vessel other than fully treated wastewater.

I'm on my way to bed, I'll comment more tommorrow.

-the source given in the above post should have been http://na.oceana.org/sites/default/files/o/fileadmin/oceana/uploads/Climate_Change/Toxic_Legacy/Toxic_Legacy_FINAL.pdf (the summary .pdf had been mistakenly pasted).

-it is most interesting that you are in the business and do not see not leaks/pollution. --how about in exploration? one source i read said the wells are deeper and have a much larger circumference during exploration, and drilling muds/produced water etc., being dumped into the ocean are even a worse problem at that point. -have you been involved in the exploration process? Also, from the well itself, are there pipelines bringing the oil into shore or is the oil put into containers and shipped into shore?

Fox McCloud
04-15-2010, 11:03 PM
is this shale (?sp) oil? I've read that gathering this oil is not practical. :confused:

IIRC, this is the problem; the price of oil has to be above a certain price before it's profitable to tap into the stuff and begin using it--there was some speculation that this would begin soon in 2007-2008ish, but then the nationwide recession began and all commodities tanked like mad, as people sold them off to pay off debts/bills/etc.

ANWR would be a nice place to drill for oil, as well, but it's locked off.

Really, I wish all public property was sold off so as to allow for the exploration and drilling of oil...it probably will only lower prices by a couple of percent, but hey, that's perfectly fine.

Jodi's mom
04-15-2010, 11:17 PM
I read something yesterday, I thought, that the reason why is that "Fish & Game" is big business. Tackle, fishing/hunting licenses, and everything that goes with it. If my memory serves me, I believe they said the revenue is in the billions. Can't mess with big business.

If I can find the article wherever or however I found it, I'll paste it (or the link) on here...that is IF I can find my way back!

Here's the link, Angling for the Future - Hunting for the Truth Part I (http://www.freedomadvocates.org/articles/wildlands_project/angling_for_the_future_-_hunting_for_the_truth_--_part_i_20100410404/)

Zippyjuan
04-16-2010, 12:23 PM
There is oil all over the place. The issue is how easily and at what cost you can get out the oil. Consider a bottle of olive oil. Take off the cap and you can use say a straw (representing an oil well) and suck out most of the oil in a bottle. This is the standard image of an oil field- a big lake or bubble underground which you just have to pump out. Large fields like that are increasingly rare.

Now take that bottle of oil and pour it out onto your kitchen counter. You have the same amount of oil but now it is spread out and can even be in many different pools of oil. To try to suck it all up you need to use either a lot of straws or move your straw all over the counter. The Bakken fields in Montana and South Dakota are more like this- lots of small pools which are not very deep. You need more wells and more expensive drilling techniques (such as horizontal drilling) to be able to extract the same amount of oil you would find in say Saudi Arabia. The total amount of oil in a field is not the same as the recoverable oil amount and estimates of just how much oil is in the Bakken Field have varied tremendously. Back in 1951 when it was discovered preliminary estimates were said to be 175 to 500 billion barrels- compare that to the reported Saudi reserves of 267 billion barrels (proven reserves is the amount of oil which could be extracted at a profit given current technology- changes in technology or prices for oil can change the numbers of proven reserves).

As recently as April, 2008, the USGS reported that the currently recoverable reserves in the Bakken oil fields is in the 3-4 billion barrel range. As a comparison to that, the US consumes roughly seven billion barrels a year.
http://geology.rockbandit.net/2008/04/03/bakken-formation-could-boost-oil-reserves/

A U.S. Geological Survey assessment, released April 10, shows a 25-fold increase in the amount of oil that can be recovered compared to the agency’s 1995 estimate of 151 million barrels of oil.

Technically recoverable oil resources are those producible using currently available technology and industry practices. USGS is the only provider of publicly available estimates of undiscovered technically recoverable oil and gas resources.

New geologic models applied to the Bakken Formation, advances in drilling and production technologies, and recent oil discoveries have resulted in these substantially larger technically recoverable oil volumes. About 105 million barrels of oil were produced from the Bakken Formation by the end of 2007.

The USGS Bakken study was undertaken as part of a nationwide project assessing domestic petroleum basins using standardized methodology and protocol as required by the Energy Policy and Conservation Act of 2000.

The Bakken Formation estimate is larger than all other current USGS oil assessments of the lower 48 states and is the largest “continuous” oil accumulation ever assessed by the USGS. A “continuous” oil accumulation means that the oil resource is dispersed throughout a geologic formation rather than existing as discrete, localized occurrences. The next largest “continuous” oil accumulation in the U.S. is in the Austin Chalk of Texas and Louisiana, with an undiscovered estimate of 1.0 billions of barrels of technically recoverable oil.


There are other potentially huge oil deposits in the US as well but those are locked up in oil shale which is extremely costly -both economically and environmentally- to try to extract.

There is resistance against drilling in the ANWAR due to environmental concerns, but the same concerns were raised in reguards to the Alaskan oil pipeline and those turned out to be unfounded. I consider myself environmentalist but do think that ANWAR would probably not have a significant negative impact on the environment there. The mean estimate of recoverable oil there is about 10 billion barrels of both oil and natural gas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Refuge_drilling_controversy
Again, compare that to our annual consumption of about 7 billion barrels.
Both would have only small if any impacts on the world oil supply and its prices.

..PAUL4PRES..
04-16-2010, 02:22 PM
Montana? There is oil ALL over the place in the USA... They just don't drill here to keep us engaged in the Middle East...

Yes for some reason they dont want china russia or india to get their hands on it.

Todd
04-16-2010, 02:39 PM
this is not worth it:

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs371.snc3/23828_116431551703804_100000108791083_292824_45136 3_s.jpg

:rolleyes:

As if that's the common outcome of this endeavor.

mello
04-16-2010, 04:40 PM
I thought that the bigger problem is that there are not enough oil refineries in the U.S. to convert the
oil into gas. And if my memory is correct there literally has not been a new refinery built in the U.S.
in years because of environmentalists & ridiculous government regulations.

awake
04-16-2010, 04:48 PM
That oil will be locked in the ground to keep the price of oil where the cartel likes it. [Que the environmentalist hacks to save the earth from cheap oil].

Pepsi
04-16-2010, 04:51 PM
I bet China at some point well demand that oil for them selfs, one way or another just like Bush and the Neocons in Iraq.

Join The Paul Side
04-16-2010, 06:02 PM
it's hard to know the full truth about anything anymore without really researching...here's some info. found from one source that discussed offshore drilling... it would be nice to see literature debating what has been said:

IMPACTS OF OFFSHORE DRILLING

Offshore drilling operations create various forms of pollution that have considerable impacts on marine and other wildlife. These include:

1) drilling muds,

Drilling muds are used for the lubrication and cooling of the drill bit and pipe. The muds also remove the cuttings that come from the bottom of the oil well and help prevent blowouts by acting as a sealant. There are different types of drilling muds used in oil drilling operations, but all release toxic chemicals that can affect marine life. One drilling platform normally drills between seventy and one-hundred wells and discharges more than 90,000 metric tons of drilling fluids and metal cuttings into the ocean.One well can potentially affect an area of a one kilometer (approximately two-thirds of a mile) radius through the discharge of these materials. Experimental studies suggest that chemicals dumped in the ocean from oil operations can stunt the growth of fish and affect their breeding patterns. For example, cod exposed to this waste water had smaller eggs and delayed spawning time.

2) produced water,

Produced Water Produced water is fluid trapped underground and brought up with oil and gas. It makes up about 20 percent of the waste associated with offshore drilling. Produced waters usually have an oil content of 30 to 40 parts per million. As a result, the nearly 2 billion gallons of produced water released into the Cook Inlet in Alaska each year, contain about 70,000 gallons of oil.


Drilling muds and produced water are disposed of daily by offshore rigs. Drilling muds and produced water discharged from oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico released mercury and other heavy metals into the ocean. Additionally, offshore rigs dump tons of:

3) drilling fluid,

4) metal cuttings, including toxic metals, such as lead chromium and mercury,
Drilling activity around oil rigs is suspected of contributing to elevated levels of mercury in Gulf of Mexico fish.

5) as well as carcinogens, such as benzene, into the ocean.

Additional drilling operations creating various forms of pollution that have considerable impacts on marine and other wildlife include:

6) brine wastes,
7) deck runoff water, and
8) flowline and pipeline leaks.
9) Catastrophic spills and blowouts are also a threat from offshore drilling operations.



Exploration:
Factors other than pollutants can affect marine wildlife as well. Impacts from oil begin with the exploration process. Exploration for offshore oil involves firing air guns which send a strong shock across the seabed that can decrease fish catch, damage the hearing capacity of various marine species and lead to marine mammal strandings. (Defn: strandings: instances when marine animals come ashore alive under abnormal circumstances, are injured close to shore, or wash ashore dead, whether individually or in groups. ie. Dolphins depend entirely on hearing to survive as their sight is limited.) These sonic shockwaves used to locate likely oil-bearing formations produce the loudest man-made noises on earth.

http://na.oceana.org/sites/default/files/o/fileadmin/oceana/uploads/Climate_Change/Toxic_Legacy/Toxic_Legacy_FINAL_Summary.pdf

I'm getting the feeling that you must be an enviro-nazi. :(

Zippyjuan
04-16-2010, 06:14 PM
That oil will be locked in the ground to keep the price of oil where the cartel likes it. [Que the environmentalist hacks to save the earth from cheap oil].

Both ANWAR and Bakken combined are not enough to have any impact on the global price of oil.

charrob
04-16-2010, 07:20 PM
I'm getting the feeling that you must be an enviro-nazi. :(

i don't want to see nature hurt unnecessarily.

there is no dire need for oil in this country: in fact, we have so much oil, it seems we waste it.

considering peak oil, the conservative choice would be to conserve some for future generations rather than using every last drop. what if your grandchildren's grandchildren had some speciality, unique need for a small amount of oil that occurs in their generation but, oops, their descendants from the year 2010 decided to use it all up so they're just out of luck? i just question the need to squander this resource like this?

i'd like to see subsidies to the oil companies discontinued and the price of oil to go up so that we begin to respect we are using a resource that really is limited, instead of acting like we have a glut of it. -if the prices go up, the market will naturally create cheaper alternatives in time that people will use. -the earlier price increases occur, the faster we will see alternative opportunities.

an addiction cannot be stopped by increasing the supply of the drug.

the thought that we could kill seabirds and wildlife (including mammals like dolphins who have brains in proportion to body-size to that of our own), is imo not only unnecessary and cruel, but immoral.

i am equally opposed to killing dolphins as i am opposed to the illegal wars where our country is responsible for the ongoing carnage in afghanistan and iraq.

i don't mean to be, as you say, "an enviro-nazi". ;)

you know in some ways this does remind me a bit of the other ongoing thread about bringing "evangelicals" into the RP movement. And, indeed, coming from the left, I loathe the thought of the Sarah Palin moral evangelical authoritarianism. I abhor those types because they try to push their moral agendas of gay marriage, etc., down everyone elses throat. So I think I can understand what you are saying here: and I think I can, in this way, understand evangelicals alittle more.

to me, bonding with nature is religious: personally i feel closer to God after climbing a mountain and standing on its summit than i could ever feel inside a church. So to kill nature unnecessarily, seems almost sinful. But this must be the way evangelicals feel about gay marriage, war on drugs, and all the other really goofy things that are really not so goofy in their eyes.

sorry for rambling...buts it's so interesting to see people's convictions and beliefs and how so many from so many different worlds all somewhat fit in different ways under the same umbrella that Dr. Paul has opened for us.

awake
04-16-2010, 07:41 PM
Both ANWAR and Bakken combined are not enough to have any impact on the global price of oil.

I did not say they would be successful. They will however expend every effort that political lobbying can buy to bring it about.

InterestedParticipant
04-16-2010, 11:57 PM
On August 8, 2005 President Bush mandated its extraction. None of it has been extracted.

- 8-times as much oil as Saudi Arabia
- 18-times as much oil as Iraq
- 21-times as much oil as Kuwait
- 22-times as much oil as Iran
- 500-times as much oil as Yemen

WTF????

They reported this stunning news: We have more oil inside our borders, than all the other proven reserves on earth.

Because this is light, sweet oil, those billions of barrels will cost Americans just $16 PER BARREL!

The Bakken is the largest domestic oil discovery since Alaska's Prudhoe Bay and has the potential to eliminate all American dependence on foreign oil.

Hidden 1,000 feet beneath the surface of the Rocky Mountains lies the largest untapped oil reserve in the world. It's a formation known as the Williston Basin, but is more commonly referred to as the 'Bakken.'

I've personally seen oil wells in the middle of houses in LA city. WTF? They can't drill where there's no one?

Google it.
Dude, the world has more Oil than it knows what to do with.... and much of it replenishes over time. The Soviets learned this, but the research was suppressed in the West. The lies are so deep its almost incomprehensible.

nandnor
04-17-2010, 04:05 AM
nvm

awake
04-17-2010, 07:16 AM
Lots of ignorancy of economics here. Why arent companies drilling more? because that drives capital value down, especially given the fact that production will only get lower in the future, making for more profits and and capital value drilling then. There are no more big discoveries to be made, the party is over.http://agoodhuman.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/world-oil-discovery-10-years-period.jpg
Peak oil was in 2005, its only gonna go down from now..
http://www.theoildrum.com/files/oilwatchmarch2010_3.png


I disagree completely, The price reflects the commodities scarcity, when not manipulated by government efforts. When the price rises to reflect the limited quantities this spurs higher profits attracting new capital and investment to new producers and spurring alternatives. This new production supply then comes to market having a lowering affect on prices.

This happened all through out the 1970's energy crisis; Oil cartels where trying to raise their prices by restricting new supplies coming to market by keeping the the new producers and discoveries out through government force.

Peak oils is a wonderful myth , the truth is every time the price goes up they seem to find more of it in different ways. It drives the cartels nuts.

Bman
04-17-2010, 07:52 AM
then why in heaven's name is obama drilling off the east coast of the U.S. which contains less than .01 percent of the oil this nation uses on a daily basis?

drilling has been proven to continually excrete leaks into the ocean and cause death and disease to wildlife in addition to destroying beaches (as well as all the businesses associated with those beaches). the east coast (unlike the west coast) is also lined with vital wetlands and wildlife habitats. So lets pillage and destroy the natural beauty of our country and wildlife for what reason? By the looks of things in this country we are currently experiencing a glut rather than a shortage!

this is not worth it:

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs371.snc3/23828_116431551703804_100000108791083_292824_45136 3_s.jpg

If you don't drill the oil it will eventually seep out into the ocean all by itself. The bigger concern when dealing with oceans is throwning trash and mercury into the ocean. Not drilling for oil.

EndDaFed
04-17-2010, 08:19 AM
I disagree completely, The price reflects the commodities scarcity, when not manipulated by government efforts. When the price rises to reflect the limited quantities this spurs higher profits attracting new capital and investment to new producers and spurring alternatives. This new production supply then comes to market having a lowering affect on prices.

This happened all through out the 1970's energy crisis; Oil cartels where trying to raise their prices by restricting new supplies coming to market by keeping the the new producers and discoveries out through government force.

Peak oils is a wonderful myth , the truth is every time the price goes up they seem to find more of it in different ways. It drives the cartels nuts.

So the world has an unlimited supply of oil now? This is news to me. There is only so much technology can do. When it gets to the point that it takes more energy to pull a barrel of oil out of the ground compared to the amount of energy that is returned no amount of capital investment can fix that. Now the return on energy invested has been falling starting with the very first barrel of oil to come out of the ground. It used to be 50 barrels of oil returned for an energy investment of one barrel of oil. Now that tar sands are starting to make up more of our oil supply. The return is 5 barrels of oil for one barrel worth of oil invested even given the giant gains in technology. Now it takes roughly a return of 3 unites of energy from one unit invested in order to support modern civilization. That leaves one unit of energy to reinvest and two units of energy for consumption. Now that is the minimum estimate I have found. The chart below uses a bleaker estimate of 8 to 1.

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/327/6323l.jpg

InterestedParticipant
04-17-2010, 08:54 AM
Lots of ignorancy of economics here. Why arent companies drilling more? because that drives capital value down, especially given the fact that production will only get lower in the future, making for more profits and and capital value drilling then. There are no more big discoveries to be made, the party is over.

Peak oil was in 2005, its only gonna go down from now..

The ignorance here is displayed by people who listen to media and read mainstream economics and science publications.

There is no relationship between the price of oil and supply of oil or demand on oil. The price is set in Wall Street and has a lot more to do with the various social pressures that need to be exerted, labor's disposable income, and cost of treasury notes that the US forces the Saudi's to purchase.

People have a lot to UN-learn.

ScoutsHonor
04-17-2010, 09:14 AM
^^ OMFG. You mean there is no shortage?!! You mean that is deliberate lies too??
OMG!

:eek::eek::confused:

nandnor
04-17-2010, 09:53 AM
nvm

awake
04-17-2010, 10:20 AM
Why is no one raising dire consequences of peak wheat, or peak corn? What about peak shoes and peak cars? Oil has many substitutes: tar sand , coal , NG, LNG... it just so happens we need to make it near illegal to use many of them for "environmental reasons". Oil interests love environmentalists for they do the grunt work of attacking competition for the established oil cartels under the cloak of a new age mundane religion.

Peak oil as with a million other BS theories is simply is a convenient scare tactic to try and push up oil prices when oil interest margins are squeezed between rising costs of inflation and fall off in demand in recessions. All industries want the ability to unilaterally raise their respective prices independent of their consumers will. They envy governments ability to do so and spend large amounts of effort in seeking that power.

As well, government loves the peak oil theory as a deflection of their policies. Inflation is usually blamed on the price of oil, not the other way around;a convenient explanation," prices are rising cause were running out".

They were using the same scare tactics in the 70's energy crisis, one would do well to study that period to see the same gimmicks in use today.

Read more here (http://blog.mises.org/5892/surprise-surprise-surprise-the-great-peak-oil-theory-is-just-not-all-that-it-is-cracked-up-to-be/)

nandnor
04-17-2010, 11:18 AM
nvm

awake
04-17-2010, 11:48 AM
You do notice I use the the word "try" as a representation that a selected means to attaining a specific end that will not be achieved. Please clarify your position.

The goal of all producers is to seek full control of the prices for their production, when they are deemed to low then the end is to raise them; if they are to high then the end is to keep them there with out encountering surplus. This translates into the desire to set prices unilaterally as the producers wish. Environmentalism is a seemingly appropriate means for many to achieve that ultimate end.

EndDaFed
04-17-2010, 01:28 PM
They were using the same scare tactics in the 70's energy crisis, one would do well to study that period to see the same gimmicks in use today.

Read more here (http://blog.mises.org/5892/surprise-surprise-surprise-the-great-peak-oil-theory-is-just-not-all-that-it-is-cracked-up-to-be/)

They very source you cite links to this.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15715744/


The “peak oil” idea was first proposed by the late geologist M. King Hubbert in 1956, who correctly predicted a 1970 peak in U.S. production in the lower 48 states. Hubbert followers have carried forward the theory, applying it to global supplies.

InterestedParticipant
04-17-2010, 01:47 PM
^^ OMFG. You mean there is no shortage?!! You mean that is deliberate lies too??
OMG!

:eek::eek::confused:
Yup, and there are people here, the majority of them, who will defend the lies and the liars with every drop of energy they can muster.

sparat1k
04-17-2010, 02:05 PM
just remember "oil in place" does not mean "recoverable oil". generally recoverable hydrocarbons are 25% in conventional reservoirs and in shales it's much more like ~10%

BenIsForRon
04-17-2010, 02:14 PM
Yup, and there are people here, the majority of them, who will defend the lies and the liars with every drop of energy they can muster.

What you call lies I call rational arguments.

You're the one who thinks Frank Zappa and Jon Stewart are part of the global conspiracy.

ScoutsHonor
04-17-2010, 07:59 PM
No one by himself can set a price. Price only exists as a part of an exchange, and the praxeological category of exchange requires two actors. If oil is exchanged, then it has everything to do with the value schedules of the actors exchanging it(aka supply and demand curves). No other option is praxeologically possible.

This is stating the obvious, don't you think -- and seems to me to be a non sequitur to boot..

Praxeologically speaking.

Zippyjuan
04-18-2010, 01:42 PM
Why is no one raising dire consequences of peak wheat, or peak corn? What about peak shoes and peak cars? Oil has many substitutes: tar sand , coal , NG, LNG... it just so happens we need to make it near illegal to use many of them for "environmental reasons". Oil interests love environmentalists for they do the grunt work of attacking competition for the established oil cartels under the cloak of a new age mundane religion.

Peak oil as with a million other BS theories is simply is a convenient scare tactic to try and push up oil prices when oil interest margins are squeezed between rising costs of inflation and fall off in demand in recessions. All industries want the ability to unilaterally raise their respective prices independent of their consumers will. They envy governments ability to do so and spend large amounts of effort in seeking that power.

As well, government loves the peak oil theory as a deflection of their policies. Inflation is usually blamed on the price of oil, not the other way around;a convenient explanation," prices are rising cause were running out".

They were using the same scare tactics in the 70's energy crisis, one would do well to study that period to see the same gimmicks in use today.

Read more here (http://blog.mises.org/5892/surprise-surprise-surprise-the-great-peak-oil-theory-is-just-not-all-that-it-is-cracked-up-to-be/)

Peak oil does not say we will use up every drop of oil. What is true is that for decades now we have been using up oil faster than new discoveries come along. That cannot continue indefinately. And those sources we are finding are more and more costly to get the oil out of. Cheap and easy to get to oil will be disappearing. Sure there are things like oil shales and sands. Oil shale is estimated to take the energy of one barrel of oil to extract out two barrels of usable oil (the extraction energy would more likely come from say a coal burning plant- you have to generate a lot of heat and use lots of water to get the water to come out of the shale rocks). Tar sands are also very messy and more expensive to get oil out.

As for the energy shock of the 1970's, what happened in its wake was a major effort to reduce the consumption of oil. It really worked quite well which is why you have not seen really that much of a problem since then. Despite our growing economy, we have only in the last few years started to once again use the amounts of oil we used back then. Our consumption in 2997 was not much higher than our consumption was in 1977 despite having tons of more autos on the road, more homes and businesses all demanding it.
http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/USpetroleumconsumption.gif
http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm

One by one, countries which used to be oil exporters are becoming oil importers. The United States used to be the largest exporter of oil in the world and now we are the biggest importer. In recent times, countries like Britain and Indonesia- which also used to be big exporters- have joined the list of net importer countries. Others like Mexico and Venezuela- two of the current top ten producers- could become net importers in the next few years or so. The slowdown in the global economy has slowed but not eleminated that change. Russia- the #1 or #2 biggest producer (depending on when and how you check the figures) has been facing declines in their own production for the last couple of years. Saudi Arabia began activating an oil field which requires them to pump in two gallons of sea water (and the field is not near the ocean so they also had to build a large pipeline just for that seawater) into the ground just to get out one gallon of oil. This seems to indicate that they are having difficulties maintaining their output levels too (they do not reveal much of any information about their oil reserves or production- their reported reserves have been unchanged for years despite large amounts being produced and exported).

So we won't literally run out of oil one day, but it will get more scarce and more expensive to get at what is still there.

As for concern about the price of oil and its impact on the prices of other things, that is because oil is a major component of so many things. Fuel for transportation of goods. Plastics (what is made without plastic these days?), fertilizers for our food supply. Aside from labor, it is probably the next largest input cost for the things we produce and buy and sell.

InterestedParticipant
04-18-2010, 05:59 PM
Why is no one raising dire consequences of peak wheat, or peak corn? What about peak shoes and peak cars?
I think the most important issue facing humanity is Peak Intelligence, or Peak Knowledge, or Peak Wisdom. Why is no one talking about that? This is the greatest threat to humanity. All the other issues are trivial, and can be easily resolve with Intelligence, Wisdom, and Knowledge.

SamFisher
04-18-2010, 06:27 PM
Every project that I am involved in is zero discharge.

No drilling muds or completion fluids of any kind or amount go overboard.

No discharges of any kind go overboard from my vessel other than fully treated wastewater.

I'm on my way to bed, I'll comment more tommorrow.

If the US had any SIGNIFICANT amount of oil domestically then you'd have to think that EVERY single administration that sent $500 billion dollar/year to foreign countries since 1981 was a complete loser and a bunch of idiots if not worse. There is no oil in the USA, wake up sheeple! Or if we discover some we have to send a few people under the guillotine because the national debt we wrecked up the last 30 years just by paying for the Saudi camel lovers' madrasas, is going to cost interest to our great grandchildren. So no, I don't think there is anything that's worth having our panties on fire about.

Ricky201
04-18-2010, 07:20 PM
If the US had any SIGNIFICANT amount of oil domestically then you'd have to think that EVERY single administration that sent $500 billion dollar/year to foreign countries since 1981 was a complete loser and a bunch of idiots if not worse.

Umm...yes I do think EVERY single administration that sent $500 billion dollars a year to foreign countries since 1981 were complete losers and a bunch of idiots.

SamFisher
04-18-2010, 07:23 PM
Umm...yes I do think EVERY single administration that sent $500 billion dollars a year to foreign countries since 1981 were complete losers and a bunch of idiots.

My point exactly: why would we import oil if we had it all along?!

EndDaFed
04-18-2010, 07:54 PM
If the US had any SIGNIFICANT amount of oil domestically then you'd have to think that EVERY single administration that sent $500 billion dollar/year to foreign countries since 1981 was a complete loser and a bunch of idiots if not worse. There is no oil in the USA, wake up sheeple! Or if we discover some we have to send a few people under the guillotine because the national debt we wrecked up the last 30 years just by paying for the Saudi camel lovers' madrasas, is going to cost interest to our great grandchildren. So no, I don't think there is anything that's worth having our panties on fire about.

There is oil in the U.S. In fact we have one of the freest oil markets in the world. U.S oil production is about 2.7 billion barrels a year.

driller80545
04-18-2010, 08:00 PM
Basically, all wildcat exploration land drilling for oil in US is over and has been for over a decade.

InterestedParticipant
04-18-2010, 08:01 PM
If the US had any SIGNIFICANT amount of oil domestically then you'd have to think that EVERY single administration that sent $500 billion dollar/year to foreign countries since 1981 was a complete loser and a bunch of idiots if not worse. There is no oil in the USA, wake up sheeple!
Buying foreign oil has to do with maintaining US Government budgetary system, not oil supply. US buys foreign oil, pays for this oil in USD's, then the foreign oil producers use their USD profits to buy US Treasury notes, giving the US Government more budget to spend on weapon systems. If US were to pump and buy domestic oil, it breaks the circular flow of money that supports unlimited US Government budgets.

EndDaFed
04-18-2010, 08:05 PM
Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports Top 15 Countries

January 2010 Import Highlights: April 8, 2010
Monthly data on the origins of crude oil imports in January 2010 has been released and it shows that two countries exported more than 1.00 million barrels per day to the United States (see table below). The top five exporting countries accounted for 67 percent of United States crude oil imports in January while the top ten sources accounted for approximately 90 percent of all U.S. crude oil imports. The top five sources of US crude oil imports for January were Canada (1.882 million barrels per day), Mexico (1.033 million barrels per day), Nigeria (0.996 million barrels per day), Saudi Arabia (0.958 million barrels per day), and Venezuela (0.827 million barrels per day). The rest of the top ten sources, in order, were Iraq (0.506 million barrels per day), Algeria (0.327) million barrels per day), Colombia (0.293 million barrels per day), Brazil (0.271 million barrels per day), and Angola (0.268 million barrels per day). Total crude oil imports averaged 8.454 million barrels per day in January, which is an increase of 0.321 million barrels per day from December 2009.

Canada remained the largest exporter of total petroleum in January, exporting 2.593 million barrels per day to the United States, which is a decrease from last month (2.649 thousand barrels per day). The second largest exporter of total petroleum was Mexico with 1.131 million barrels per day.
Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)

Country Jan-01 Dec-09 YTD 2010 Jan-09 YTD 2009


CANADA 1,882 2,051 1,882 1,946 1,946
MEXICO 1,033 1,063 1,033 1,299 1,299
NIGERIA 996 1,020 996 488 488
SAUDI ARABIA 958 886 958 1,337 1,337
VENEZUELA 827 772 827 1,172 1,172
IRAQ 506 325 506 568 568
ALGERIA 327 336 327 359 359
COLOMBIA 293 179 293 225 225
BRAZIL 271 181 271 397 397
ANGOLA 268 266 268 527 527
ECUADOR 215 86 215 272 272
RUSSIA 137 168 137 157 157
UNITED KINGDOM 137 67 137 15 15
KUWAIT 66 160 66 225 225
GABON 62 33 62 118 118

TortoiseDream
04-18-2010, 09:58 PM
In Jordan they have a gas truck that comes around and you can buy barrels of oil off of it. It's sort of like an ice cream truck, it has music and everything.

Zippyjuan
04-19-2010, 12:57 AM
There is oil in the U.S. In fact we have one of the freest oil markets in the world. U.S oil production is about 2.7 billion barrels a year.
True but the problem is that we consume seven billion barrels a year. In terms of oil production, the US is actually the third largest producer behind Saudi Arabia and Russia. Surprised? http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_pro-energy-oil-production

Just so people are not confused, the following is a list of the top sources for US oil imports- not total global production. Some would be surprised to learn that our biggest suppliers are Canada and Mexico- not the Saudi Arabia (currently #4) and the Middle East.


Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports Top 15 Countries

January 2010 Import Highlights: April 8, 2010
Monthly data on the origins of crude oil imports in January 2010 has been released and it shows that two countries exported more than 1.00 million barrels per day to the United States (see table below). The top five exporting countries accounted for 67 percent of United States crude oil imports in January while the top ten sources accounted for approximately 90 percent of all U.S. crude oil imports. The top five sources of US crude oil imports for January were Canada (1.882 million barrels per day), Mexico (1.033 million barrels per day), Nigeria (0.996 million barrels per day), Saudi Arabia (0.958 million barrels per day), and Venezuela (0.827 million barrels per day). The rest of the top ten sources, in order, were Iraq (0.506 million barrels per day), Algeria (0.327) million barrels per day), Colombia (0.293 million barrels per day), Brazil (0.271 million barrels per day), and Angola (0.268 million barrels per day). Total crude oil imports averaged 8.454 million barrels per day in January, which is an increase of 0.321 million barrels per day from December 2009.

Canada remained the largest exporter of total petroleum in January, exporting 2.593 million barrels per day to the United States, which is a decrease from last month (2.649 thousand barrels per day). The second largest exporter of total petroleum was Mexico with 1.131 million barrels per day.
Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)



EndDaFed didn't provide a link but thank you for the information.


Buying foreign oil has to do with maintaining US Government budgetary system, not oil supply. US buys foreign oil, pays for this oil in USD's, then the foreign oil producers use their USD profits to buy US Treasury notes, giving the US Government more budget to spend on weapon systems. If US were to pump and buy domestic oil, it breaks the circular flow of money that supports unlimited US Government budgets.

If that is true then you would expect the largest foreign holders to be oil producing countries. The largest foreign holders of US debt are Japan and China- and we do not get oil from either of them. The United Kingdom is #3 on the list of foreign holders of US Debt. Those three countries alone account for a full half (well, over 49% anyways) of the foreign held debt. http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/mfh.txt Our two biggest sources of oil, Candan and Mexico combined hold about two and a half percent of our foreign debt.

EndDaFed
04-19-2010, 04:00 AM
True but the problem is that we consume seven billion barrels a year. In terms of oil production, the US is actually the third largest producer behind Saudi Arabia and Russia. Surprised? http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_pro-energy-oil-production

Just so people are not confused, the following is a list of the top sources for US oil imports- not total global production. Some would be surprised to learn that our biggest suppliers are Canada and Mexico- not the Saudi Arabia (currently #4) and the Middle East.

Yes, I was surprised by that. Which is the reason why I posted that information. We do burn oil like crazy here in the states.



EndDaFed didn't provide a link but thank you for the information.


My bad I forgot the link. Here it is.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html


Now the real problem that we face in the future is when the nations that do export their oil to us can no longer supply their own internal demand. At that point they will no longer export to the rest of the world and become import nations as well.

nandnor
04-19-2010, 05:14 AM
nvm

ProBlue33
04-19-2010, 07:58 AM
Canada remained the largest exporter of total petroleum in January, exporting 2.593 million barrels per day to the United States, which is a decrease from last month (2.649 thousand barrels per day). The second largest exporter of total petroleum was Mexico with 1.131 million barrels per day.
Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)

Country Jan-01 Dec-09 YTD 2010 Jan-09 YTD 2009


CANADA 1,882 2,051 1,882 1,946 1,946
MEXICO 1,033 1,063 1,033 1,299 1,299
NIGERIA 996 1,020 996 488 488
SAUDI ARABIA 958 886 958 1,337 1,337
VENEZUELA 827 772 827 1,172 1,172
IRAQ 506 325 506 568 568
ALGERIA 327 336 327 359 359
COLOMBIA 293 179 293 225 225
BRAZIL 271 181 271 397 397
ANGOLA 268 266 268 527 527
ECUADOR 215 86 215 272 272
RUSSIA 137 168 137 157 157
UNITED KINGDOM 137 67 137 15 15
KUWAIT 66 160 66 225 225
GABON 62 33 62 118 118

I didn't know Canada has so much oil, I guess they are good for more than hockey after all.