Obama Sabotages our Space Program - Neil Armstrong Declares Policy "Devastating"

[Brad Zink]

First moonwalker blasts Obama’s space plan

http://images.politico.com/global/click/100413_armstrong_obama_ap_392_regular.jpg

MSNBC.com and NBC News (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36476183/ns/technology_and_science-space/)
updated 7:26 p.m. ET, Tues., April 13, 2010

The first man to walk on the moon blasted President Barack Obama’s decision to cancel NASA’s back-to-the-moon program on Tuesday, saying that the move is “devastating” to America’s space effort.

Apollo 11 commander Neil Armstrong’s open letter was also signed by Apollo 17 commander Eugene Cernan, the last man to walk on the moon; and Apollo 13 commander Jim Lovell, who is marking the 40th anniversary of his famous lunar non-landing this week.

The letter was released to NBC News just two days in advance of Obama’s trip to NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida for a space policy summit. Obama is expected to flesh out his vision for the space agency's future during his speech at the summit.

The most controversial part of the president's policy is the cancellation of the Constellation program, which was aimed at developing a new generation of Ares rockets and Orion spacecraft to send astronauts into Earth orbit and beyond.

The idea was that such spacecraft would replace NASA's space shuttle fleet, which is to be retired by the end of this year. But acting on the advice of an independent panel, the Obama administration determined that the Constellation program could not fulfill NASA's goals on the required timetable. NASA's budget proposal, released in February, puts the return to the moon on indefinite hold and instead focuses on developing technologies for future exploration.

‘Long downhill slide’?
Canceling Constellation could lead to thousands of layoffs at some of America's biggest aerospace contractors, including Lockheed Martin, the Boeing Co. and ATK. Such job losses are among the factors behind congressional opposition to the cancellation. Armstrong and his fellow astronauts emphasize the bigger implications, however, and say in their letter that the decision would put the nation on a "long downhill slide to mediocrity."

The letter notes that the U.S. space effort will be dependent for years to come on the Russians for transport to the International Space Station, at a cost of more than $50 million per seat.

NASA is budgeting billions of dollars to support the development of U.S. commercial spaceships that could help fill the gap. The beneficiaries of those billions would include smaller aerospace ventures, such as California-based SpaceX and Virginia-based Orbital Sciences. In their letter, the astronauts say that the availability of such craft "cannot be predicted with any certainty, but is likely to take substantially longer and be more expensive than we would hope."

Armstrong and his colleagues complained that the cancellation would amount to wasting the roughly $10 billion that has been allocated to Constellation over the past five years. "Equally importantly, we will have lost the many years required to re-create the equivalent of what we will have discarded," they wrote.

"For the United States, the leading spacefaring nation for nearly half a century, to be without carriage to low Earth orbit and with no human exploration capability to go beyond Earth orbit for an indeterminate time into the future, destines our nation to become one of second- or even third-rate stature," they said in the letter.

"America must decide if it wishes to remain a leader in space," the astronauts said. "If it does, we should institute a program which will give us the very best chance of achieving that goal."

Full Article: MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36476183/ns/technology_and_science-space/)

[noxagol]

Space exploration is a waste of time right now, especially considering the mess we are in now. If someone wants to colonize the moon (something I've been pondering on for fun actually), then so be it.

[phill4paul]

Welfare recipients declare policy "devastating.":rolleyes:

[RM918]

Wasn't there some story about how a couple of MIT students with 200 bucks managed to do some sort of orbital photography it'd cost NASA vasts more to pull off?

The free market can do space a whole lot better.

[silus]

Please read this article, note the date, and see how pathetic of a goal this was for a nation that went to the moon in the 1960s.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/15/national/15BUSH.html

[Brad Zink]

Space exploration is a waste of time right now, especially considering the mess we are in now. If someone wants to colonize the moon (something I've been pondering on for fun actually), then so be it.

A waste of time is funneling trillions of dollars to Wall Street criminals, and spending years mired in ridiculous wars. Space exploration is the leading edge of human development. To abandon it would be to abandon part of what makes our species and our nation special.

Obama and the oligarchical faction that he represents are malthusian to the core, and are steadily working to drive us into Third World status. The way to get out of the "mess that we're in" is to pursue a growth-driven agenda, which includes high technology science on earth and space exploration.

[Andrew-Austin]

What it this "our space program" talk? I didn't agree to fund it, and if you press any sane and knowledgeable person who takes in to account how fucked up the country is right now, they too would admit funding space crap is completely ridiculous.

Who gives a **** what Neil Armstrong thinks? Sure its great and heroic what he did walking on the moon and all, that doesn't mean he knows **** about policy. Whats his argument for the space race, did we need to beat the Soviet Union at its own game of wastefully allocating resources to ridiculous boondoggles for the sake of nationalistic circle jerking?

Obama did good here. I would imagine both liberals and conservatives could support this and not just libertarians, from anyone's perspective the money could be better spent elsewhere, if the government should even be spending at all looking at how insane the deficit is.


A waste of time is funneling trillions of dollars to Wall Street criminals, and spending years mired in ridiculous wars. Space exploration is the leading edge of human development. To abandon it would be to abandon part of what makes our species and our nation special.

Obama and the oligarchical faction that he represents are malthusian to the core, and are steadily working to drive us into Third World status. The way to get out of the "mess that we're in" is to pursue a growth-driven agenda, which includes high technology science on earth and space exploration.

Seems you and statist politicians like Obama have something in common, you both know how best to spend other people's money when they are just trying to get buy as is. Growth and the advancement of technology will come from the private sector according to real demand fulfilling people's most urgent needs/wants, it should not come from the arbitrary whims of dick weed politicians. You sound like a socialist in that last sentence.

[Brad Zink]

What it this "our space program" talk? I didn't agree to fund it, and if you press any sane and knowledgeable person who takes in to account how fucked up the country is right now, they too would admit funding space crap is completely ridiculous.

Who gives a **** what Neil Armstrong thinks? Sure its great and heroic what he did walking on the moon and all, that doesn't mean he knows **** about policy.

Obama did good here.

You do realize that "space crap" such as satellites are integral to your daily life, correct?

[Mini-Me]

I'll give my thoughts in bulletpoints:
To preface everything, I can't justify taxation for anything, and that includes space exploration. Beyond that, there are a lot of more imminent concerns in the current economic climate. For the record, I love the idea of space exploration, and I think that space colonization is the key to the long-term survival of the human race...so I'm not just ignoring its importance here.
If we had a free market and were more prosperous, it wouldn't be long before we had privatized space tourism and more ambitious privately funded non-profit space programs.
Finally, as silus said, the goal was pretty stupid anyway. Although I disagree with his method (a national program funded by taxation), I think Buzz Aldrin is right about "Mars to Stay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_to_Stay)" being a much better goal.

[spudea]

one of the many organizations that President RP would downsize drastically or eliminate completely.

[silus]

A waste of time is funneling trillions of dollars to Wall Street criminals, and spending years mired in ridiculous wars. Space exploration is the leading edge of human development. To abandon it would be to abandon part of what makes our species and our nation special.

Obama and the oligarchical faction that he represents are malthusian to the core, and are steadily working to drive us into Third World status. The way to get out of the "mess that we're in" is to pursue a growth-driven agenda, which includes high technology science on earth and space exploration.
1. Please read my previous post (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2644066&postcount=5).

2. Where did you get the idea that "high technology science and space exploration" will suddenly end because the government is out of it?

3. Read my previous post (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2644066&postcount=5) on how ambitious our "high technology science and space exploration" really is!

[Brad Zink]

I'll give my thoughts in bulletpoints:
To preface everything, I can't justify taxation for anything, and that includes space exploration. Beyond that, there are a lot of more imminent concerns in the current economic climate.
If we had a free market and were more prosperous, it wouldn't be long before we had privatized space tourism and more ambitious privately funded non-profit space programs.
Finally, as silus said, the goal was pretty stupid anyway. Although I disagree with his method (a national program funded by taxation), I think Buzz Aldrin is right about "Mars to Stay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_to_Stay)" being a much better goal.

Would you privatize all roads, alleys, and interstate highways? If every section of pavement in the world was private, would we have the same quality of transporation? Would it be better?

I am interested in your vision of a totally privatized world, from a transportation standpoint.

[RM918]

You do realize that "space crap" such as satellites are integral to your daily life, correct?

Why can't the free market do it, and better? Why does it have to be a monopoly of the federal government, a federal government that's been running Amtrak at a loss for decades? Are they the guys you want leading the cutting edge of human technology?

[silus]

One of the many things that drives the 1969 'fake moon landing' conspiracy is this...

In January 2004 Bush proclaims it a national goal to reach the moon by 2020. And it made national headlines.

[Brad Zink]

Why can't the free market do it, and better? Why does it have to be a monopoly of the federal government, a federal government that's been running Amtrak at a loss for decades? Are they the guys you want leading the cutting edge of human technology?

I'm all for the free market to jump in to a greater extent in terms of high-speed train travel and space exploration. There's a real opening for 300 mph maglev transportation in the U.S. The technology has been around for years.

[Mini-Me]

Would you privatize all roads, alleys, and interstate highways? If every section of pavement in the world was private, would we have the same quality of transporation? Would it be better?

I am interested in your vision of a totally privatized world, from a transportation standpoint.

This is a complicated question that belongs to the minarchism/voluntaryism debate, and it's been hashed and rehashed way too many times on these forums for me to bother thinking about it right now. ;) The complexity of the transportation issue doesn't really extend to the space program issue though; you don't have to be an an-cap (or anywhere close) to disagree with an enormously expensive national space program, especially during harsh economic times, and especially when people are deeply divided about what its goal should even be. In the absence of regulatory barriers, the market naturally pours money into the areas where it's most needed/wanted; assuming the right economic conditions (where people have enough discretionary money), this would certainly include space exploration, because it's such an interesting project that so many people have a deep scientific or hobbyist interest in.

[Andrew-Austin]

You do realize that "space crap" such as satellites are integral to your daily life, correct?

In what way? What does that have to do with what I said? Have I benefited from all other missions that NASA has undertaken? Hell no.

Do you favor free market activity over socialism or not? Its as clear as that. If you think the private sector couldn't have tossed satellites in to space this isn't the forum for you. If you think the government should decide what technological causes are worth funding and to what degree this isn't the forum for you and Ron Paul is not your man. You've got a lot more in common with leftists and environmentalists who want tax money to drive/subsidize green industry.
NASA is a horribly inefficient bureaucracy that has only managed to accomplish anything thanks to practically limitless funds.



Would you privatize all roads, alleys, and interstate highways? If every section of pavement in the world was private, would we have the same quality of transporation? Would it be better?

If you are curious read this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Privatization-Roads-Highways-Walter-Block/dp/193355004X



I'm all for the free market to jump in to a greater extent in terms of high-speed train travel and space exploration.

If you are also for publicly funding these things, then no, you might as well say that you are not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowding_out_%28economics%29

This is like saying you are both in favor of socializing the health insurance sector, and in favor of private insurance. The two can at most just barely coexist, the former at the extreme expense of the latter.


There's a real opening for 300 mph maglev transportation in the U.S. The technology has been around for years.

Potential doesn't equate to demand.

[Brad Zink]

Do you favor free market activity over socialism or not? Its as clear as that.



I'll pose the same question to you that I posed earlier. Would you privatize every square inch of earth, including the roads, alleys and highways? If so, would this be entirely unregulated? Could you buy the roads in your neighborhood and slap a toll on all of your neighbors when they drove down your street?

Is it socialism to have the government involved in a handful of areas?

[Pete_00]

Trying to go to the Moon or Mars would be silly under the current circumstances. But the people talking trash at NASA and the space program crack me up...guess what? The libertarian "revolution" isnt here and the benefits of the space program are all around you.

Many libertarians are like leftists in the sense that: a) They judge reality according to what they want reality to be and not what it is b) Annoying tendency of trying to be "harcore" and "i am more libertarian than you".

No libertarian "revolution" yet, everyone needs those civilian satellites in orbit and that vital scientific research, so STFU and stop crying like a girl, PAY your taxes like the rest of us and stop trying to be "hardcore" :)

[lx43]

Show me where in the constitution is NASA authorized?

[Pete_00]

I'll pose the same question to you that I posed earlier. Would you privatize every square inch of earth, including the roads, alleys and highways? If so, would this be entirely unregulated? Could you buy the roads in your neighborhood and slap a toll on all of your neighbors when they drove down your street?

Is it socialism to have the government involved in a handful of areas?

The "total libertarianism/anarchism" types seem to be already living in Mars man :D

They have their own space program going on :D

[Mini-Me]

Trying to go to war with Iran or Pakistan would be silly under the current circumstances. But the people talking trash at the DOD and the war program crack me up...guess what? The libertarian "revolution" isnt here and the benefits of the American empire are all around you.

Many libertarians are like leftists in the sense that: a) They judge reality according to what they want reality to be and not what it is b) Annoying tendency of trying to be "harcore" and "i am more libertarian than you".

No libertarian "revolution" yet, everyone needs those bases in 130 countries and that vital military edge, so STFU and stop crying like a girl, PAY your taxes like the rest of us and stop trying to be "hardcore" :)

Fixed. :rolleyes:

EDIT: In case you might miss my point: No matter how far we might be from an ideal world, there's nothing wrong with pointing out what it should look like and why the world of today is inferior. In fact, we need people to do so for anything at all to change in politics. If you're happy with the status quo and think everyone else should "STFU and stop crying like a girl," this probably isn't the place for you.

[TinCanToNA]

I find this to be like some sort of sweet spot for me. Or tender spot, or whatever. I hate government spending on just about anything, and generally take a strong Constitutional, national-defense-is-just-about-the-only-thing-to-spend-money-on view. That said, in spite of NASA's many failings as an over-sized bureaucracy, I really really like the concept of manned space exploration. Say what you want about "how useless it is" or whatever; you're wrong. It truly is one of the handful reasons we haven't gotten rid of all engineering and science programs in US higher education (the other big ones, ironically enough, are the petroleum industry and the military-industrial-congressional-college complex), it is inspirational to many, and the myriad unforeseen benefits give it a strong track record in terms of tangible return on investment.

I saw on the Colbert Report the other night (maybe last night) the PBS science PhD dude summing it up like this, "We honor our politicians, our military heroes, and our explorers." Easy to pick and choose the best among those he offered...

[lx43]

The "total libertarianism/anarchism" types seem to be already living in Mars man :D

They have their own space program going on :D

Your missing the point, I'm ALL for space exploration of any kind (manned or unmanned). There are things in this universe I think will be beyond our comprehension. Some of the pictures from Hubble are spectaculor. Yeah yeah I'm a Star Trek, Star Wars, and general sci fi nerd. lol NASA has been extremely neglectful in one of its duties, IMHO, and that is to reduce the cost of getting into space. I think most of their budget should have been focused on reducing the cost to make access to space cheaper.

Nevertheless, despite how much I love space exploration, ocean exploration, etc. NASA should not have existed for one important aspect, it is not authorized by the constitution. Once you violate the spirit of the constitution it ceases to be a constraint on government as you have seen over the past 100 years with the explosion of government growth.

[Andrew-Austin]

I'll pose the same question to you that I posed earlier. Would you privatize every square inch of earth, including the roads, alleys and highways? If so, would this be entirely unregulated? Could you buy the roads in your neighborhood and slap a toll on all of your neighbors when they drove down your street?

Is it socialism to have the government involved in a handful of areas?

Yes. I'm not going to waste my breath trying to explain anything to you about
anarcho-capitalism if you are not interested, and if you are interested a little self-driven research would do the job better than I could.

We're talking about NASA in this thread by the way. I'm not for funding NASA as an individual. Disregarding my own preference for a minute, how is publicly funding NASA justifiable? Go on. Countless people are out of jobs, the government is completely fucking broke, the economy is shit, and you were expressing your concern about getting to Mars or something? What happens if someone refuses to fund NASA, will you simply pay that portion of their taxes for them since you are so interested in their programs? Or will you cheer as they are eventually dragged to a prison cell?

[Brian4Liberty]

Show me where in the constitution is NASA authorized?

Common Defense. We need Starships to protect us from Klingons. ;)

[silus]

I saw on the Colbert Report the other night (maybe last night) the PBS science PhD dude summing it up like this, "We honor our politicians, our military heroes, and our explorers." Easy to pick and choose the best among those he offered...
WTF??

Explorers exist everywhere in every facet of life, and that has absolutely nothing to do with government. To me its disgusting that you can take something like that and implicitly give it ownership to only a sector of government. You have no concept of what an explorer is.


That said, in spite of NASA's many failings as an over-sized bureaucracy, I really really like the concept of manned space exploration
Maybe this will silence you and Brad Zink: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies

[lx43]

Common Defense. We need Starships to protect us from Klingons. ;)

Don't forget the Borg. lol

[Mini-Me]

Don't forget the Borg. lol

On the other hand, given the Reaper threat, we might be better off if we DON'T have any significant spacefaring ability. ;)

[Pete_00]

Your missing the point, I'm ALL for space exploration of any kind (manned or unmanned). There are things in this universe I think will be beyond our comprehension. Some of the pictures from Hubble are spectaculor. Yeah yeah I'm a Star Trek, Star Wars, and general sci fi nerd. lol NASA has been extremely neglectful in one of its duties, IMHO, and that is to reduce the cost of getting into space. I think most of their budget should have been focused on reducing the cost to make access to space cheaper.

Nevertheless, despite how much I love space exploration, ocean exploration, etc. NASA should not have existed for one important aspect, it is not authorized by the constitution. Once you violate the spirit of the constitution it ceases to be a constraint on government as you have seen over the past 100 years with the explosion of government growth.

My reply to Brad Zink was about how the people that beleive in total (as in 100%) libertarianism/anarchism dont seem to live on Planet Earth or know the Human animal (both the individual and the collective).

But regarding your point, private (and multi-national) space programs are the way to go...but the libertarian "revolution" isnt here so dont hate the government organizations and people that are working to make the world go around. Reality is what it is and not what you want it to be. That was my point.

[noxagol]

On the other hand, given the Reaper threat, we might be better off if we DON'T have any significant spacefaring ability. ;)

Yeah. We should wait another mellinium, then go to mars to discover mass effect technology and go to charon, and activate our mass effect gate! Then we will have another 50,000 years to jump ahead reaper technology and prevent them from continuing the cycle!

No wait, we have to advance so we can stop Saren!

[Brad Zink]

Andrew-Austin, you made an earlier statement that "potential doesn't equate to demand," which is interesting. One could make the argument that there was no demand for satellites in the U.S. until Sputnik went into orbit, and even after that there were limited commercial applications for some time.

With regard to the space program, a ton of money was put into developing the early rocketry programs that enabled us to quickly move forward with the program. Do you think that there was an appetite by corporations such as GE to invest billions of dollars on projects that might not give them any near-term return on their investment?

Don't get me wrong. I defend the free market in most cases. But in certain areas, it seems that government can play a constructive role in facilitating the forward movement of human progress.

[Mini-Me]

Yeah. We should wait another mellinium, then go to mars to discover mass effect technology and go to charon, and activate our mass effect gate! Then we will have another 50,000 years to jump ahead reaper technology and prevent them from continuing the cycle!

No wait, we have to advance so we can stop Saren!

I think this comes down to a Paragon/Renegade choice: Do we hide and let Saren go, giving ourselves an extra 50,000 years but dooming everyone else, or do we risk everything trying to save everyone? ;)

[noxagol]

I think this comes down to a Paragon/Renegade choice: Do we hide and let Saren go, giving ourselves an extra 50,000 years but dooming everyone else, or do we risk everything trying to save everyone? ;)

Ah yes, difficult choices. (well played btw!)

[Mini-Me]

Ah yes, difficult choices. (well played btw!)

HAHAHAH...I think I know what thread you're referring to!: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/1449583/1

Well played indeed, sir. :)

[silus]

Andrew-Austin, you made an earlier statement that "potential doesn't equate to demand," which is interesting. One could make the argument that there was no demand for satellites in the U.S. until Sputnik went into orbit, and even after that there were limited commercial applications for some time.

With regard to the space program, a ton of money was put into developing the early rocketry programs that enabled us to quickly move forward with the program. Do you think that there was an appetite by corporations such as GE to invest billions of dollars on projects that might not give them any near-term return on their investment?

Don't get me wrong. I defend the free market in most cases. But in certain areas, it seems that government can play a constructive role in facilitating the forward movement of human progress.
Can you just stop for a second and realize what space program you are defending... Its the one that went to the moon in 69' and makes it a goal in 2004 to reach the moon again by 2020. And you call this facilitating 'FORWARD MOVEMENT' of human progress?!!!

Be honest with yourself.

[RideTheDirt]

Can you just stop for a second and realize what space program you are defending... Its the one that went to the moon in 69' and makes it a goal in 2004 to reach the moon again by 2020. And you call this facilitating 'FORWARD MOVEMENT' of human progress?!!!

Be honest with yourself.
right?16 years to do some that they accomplished in less time 41 years ago?? wtf???

[Inquisitive]

Would you privatize all roads, alleys, and interstate highways? If every section of pavement in the world was private, would we have the same quality of transporation? Would it be better?

I am interested in your vision of a totally privatized world, from a transportation standpoint.

Yeah, its easy to say, but would actually be pretty hard to implement. My dad designs intersections and traffic signals. From what I understand its actually a very interconnected process. For example, all of the traffic signals timings (IE when the switch from Green to Yellow to Red and back) are interconnected and controlled by computers in the engineering department of the city (some older ones have to be set manually). The timings are integral to controlling the traffic flow and insuring there is no grid lock. So exactly this could be privatized is an interesting question as obviously the cohesion of the traffic system would need to be maintained, and if each road or sets of roads were owned by different companies there would still have to be a central traffic control team. Its also worth noting that the roads are built and designed by private companies and approved by the city assuming they meet the design requirements.


right?16 years to do some that they accomplished in less time 41 years ago?? wtf???

This is something commonly stated by conspiracy theorists as to one of the reasons why we never went to the moon in the first place, "If we did it in 1960, how come we cannot do it now?" This simple observation ignores the fact that the technology for doing so no longer exists or is in wide use, on top of the fact that it took tremendous political will to go there in the first place, something that does not exist today.

[Brad Zink]

Can you just stop for a second and realize what space program you are defending... Its the one that went to the moon in 69' and makes it a goal in 2004 to reach the moon again by 2020. And you call this facilitating 'FORWARD MOVEMENT' of human progress?!!!

Be honest with yourself.

Your point is well taken. It was the government that spurred our initial drive into space and it is hampering us to a greater extent each day. As I said before, I would like to see a combination of government-sponsored research and an open door to private space exploration.

[Marenco]

YouTube - Neil Armstrong - Nasa Lies. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NQ3U-B95es)

[silus]

"If we did it in 1960, how come we cannot do it now?" This simple observation ignores the fact that the technology for doing so no longer exists or is in wide use, on top of the fact that it took tremendous political will to go there in the first place, something that does not exist today.
Uh, the technology that got us there wasn't in wide use back then either, so right off the bat you are using a very odd and misleading argument. And your second argument is that the technology no longer exists?? I call BS. If you want to cite things like that you should present your sources. Do you have any?

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

he better not mess with the new telescope they are launching into space

[CUnknown]

Not that there aren't benefits for the space program, but I agree with those who are calling it a waste of time and money. It's all about cost/reward, right? You spend billions, you get x reward. The ratio is just not there for the space program, imo. Satellites, I'll grant, are necessary... but we have those already. I don't see the next big thing that's going to come out of the space program that's worth the billions we'd have to pour into it. Although this is one time I'd happily defer to the people at the NSA and other places who can see the big picture.

Going to Mars is especially a waste of time and money, though. I think people have this idea that eventually we as humans will be living on other planets and spread throughout the universe like Star Trek. Not going to happen, ever. The Earth is our home and we have to get used to that fact.

We can blast off into outer space in a tin can... but... I mean you have to ask what is the purpose of doing that...?

[legion]

Uh, the technology that got us there wasn't in wide use back then either, so right off the bat you are using a very odd and misleading argument. And your second argument is that the technology no longer exists?? I call BS. If you want to cite things like that you should present your sources. Do you have any?

Considering the space program back then consisted of strapping a pod with a man in it onto the top of an ICBM, and we don't make ICBMs anymore would suggest he is correct.

The old wind tunnels have fallen in disrepair, or have been converted to use by NASCAR.

[Brian4Liberty]

Considering the space program back then consisted of strapping a pod with a man in it onto the top of an ICBM, and we don't make ICBMs anymore would suggest he is correct.


The Saturn V was much bigger than your everyday ICBM!

This is about terminology. The technology still exists, and is improved. But we don't have any in production, and we have destroyed/dismantled our manufacturing capability (sent it to China). It would take a lot of work to get back up to speed.

[Brian4Liberty]

Not that there aren't benefits for the space program, but I agree with those who are calling it a waste of time and money. It's all about cost/reward, right?

Space travel is one of the few things that is worth spending money on (in the big picture, long term scheme of things). But in today's budget, there can be no sacred cows. Everything must be cut!

Compare it this way. The government spends a trillion dollars or more. How is that money best spent?

a. Create non-sense, paper pushing jobs.
b. Put it into the hands of Goldman Sachs/JP Morgan executives.
c. War.
d. Health care - more paper-pushing and corporate hand-outs.
e. Space Travel and colonization.

I'd say Space Travel is the most productive and far-sighted of all of those options. It also has a great potential for useful and beneficial side-effects. Unfortunately, it also has the potential to become another paper-pushing organization, as NASA has pretty much become.

What is a bigger waste of time and money? a, b, c, d, or e?

[silus]

Considering the space program back then consisted of strapping a pod with a man in it onto the top of an ICBM, and we don't make ICBMs anymore would suggest he is correct.

The old wind tunnels have fallen in disrepair, or have been converted to use by NASCAR.
You are defending the satement that 'the technology for getting to the moon no longer exists.'

1. Not making ICBMs has nothing to do with not having the technology to make an ICBM.

2. Unless you can say for a fact that ICBMs are the only way to reach the moon, your statement is invalid.

3. We still have ICBMs, so really you should argue why they can't be converted to use for space travel.

4. Making the statement that we don't have the technology to reach the moon is irresponsible without citing more than your own thoughts, assuming you are not an insider or expert in the field.

[RforRevolution]

Penn and teller: Bullshit - NASA:

Penn.and.Teller.Bullshit.S06E03.PDTV.XviD-0TV.avi (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3580087289320113608&hl=undefined#)

[Pete_00]

Penn and teller: Bullshit - NASA:

Penn.and.Teller.Bullshit.S06E03.PDTV.XviD-0TV.avi (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3580087289320113608&hl=undefined#)

Very good, they are generally annoying but that was good.

However:

http://videosift.com/video/Penn-Teller-911-Conspiracy-Theory-Bullshit

Maybe they are the ultimate bullshiters?

[Badger Paul]

A slimmed down space program can deal with satellites and be able to explore the universe with unmanned probes like Voyager or the Mars Rover.

Trips to the moon or Mars are a waste of time and money. Manned space exploration should be privatized. You want moon colonies, pay for them yourself.

"Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids. In fact it's as cold as hell."

[Badger Paul]

A slimmed down space program can deal with satellites and be able to explore the universe with unmanned probes like Voyager or the Mars Rover.

Trips to the moon or Mars are a waste of time and money. Manned space exploration should be privatized. You want moon colonies, pay for them yourself.

"Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids. In fact it's as cold as hell."

[Vessol]

To be fair, I'm all for cutting down our budget and if that means NASA, sadly it should be cut down. The more costly endeavors could be better handled by private enterprise.

[TinCanToNA]

WTF??

Explorers exist everywhere in every facet of life, and that has absolutely nothing to do with government. To me its disgusting that you can take something like that and implicitly give it ownership to only a sector of government. You have no concept of what an explorer is.

Maybe this will silence you and Brad Zink: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies

Reading comprehension failure. I recommend you try again, and this time remove the intestinal glasses. In case you're having trouble reading that last sentence, it means remove your head from your ass.

I was saying that among those three choices, it's easy to pick the best one to honor, regardless of origin.

Also, a generic list of private companies associated with spaceflight means nothing, more or less. NASA has always used private companies, but they have something that private companies have never had. But I suspect you have too much tunnel vision to even consider some things...


I agree with Vessol, actually. All budgets should be cut, including NASA's. However, NASA seems to be among the extraordinarily few things getting cut these days, which seems paradoxical.

[dwdollar]

Money to Bailouts and Wars>Money to NASA

[legion]

The Saturn V was much bigger than your everyday ICBM!

This is about terminology. The technology still exists, and is improved. But we don't have any in production, and we have destroyed/dismantled our manufacturing capability (sent it to China). It would take a lot of work to get back up to speed.

The Saturn V was bigger than an ICBM, but it still used Rocketdyne engines which were developed for an Air Force contract. The first manned missions were done on the top of a Redstone rocket, the Mercury program.

The technology does not still exist. The theory exists, but the tools and techniques used to develop build rockets have been lost, sold, scrapped, or repurposed.

There's a very large gap between the theory and the practice which can only be overcome by spending lots of money.


We do have some modern technology that allows us to develop things faster than in the past. Previously, where we would have placed a gun or an explosive to study the result of an impulse force on a structure we now have FEA software. Where we would have used a wind tunnel we now have CFD software.

[NYgs23]

Apparently, Obama is already "compromising" on this. What a shocker.

See here (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304604204575182743721614372.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_sections_news)

[silus]

All budgets should be cut, including NASA's. However, NASA seems to be among the extraordinarily few things getting cut these days, which seems paradoxical.
If you agree it should be cut, why are you even complaining?!? Either you believe it should be cut or you don't.

[puppetmaster]

privatize and be done with it....

[.Tom]

Stop forcing me to pay for NASA. If exploring space gets you off, pay for it yourself.

[moonshineplease]

an interesting perspective on NASA and its priorities from a few years ago: http://www.wired.com/science/space/magazine/15-06/ff_space_nasa

[Brian4Liberty]

The technology does not still exist. The theory exists, but the tools and techniques used to develop build rockets have been lost, sold, scrapped, or repurposed.


Uh, ok, if you want to define "technology" as the physical presense of the product, that's fine. I was defining technology as the knowledge (theory) required to build the spacecraft. Other than that difference in the definition, I believe we are saying the same thing.

[silus]

The technology does not still exist. The theory exists, but the tools and techniques used to develop build rockets have been lost, sold, scrapped, or repurposed.

Ahh...so thats why we can't get back to the moon until 2020. We don't even know how we got there!

Are you fucking kidding me?

[BenIsForRon]

Neil DeGrasse Tyson made a pretty good point on this. While robots are cheaper, human space exploration will always be inspiring to younger generations, and makes them more likely to pursue science when they get older.

[legion]

Uh, ok, if you want to define "technology" as the physical presense of the product, that's fine. I was defining technology as the knowledge (theory) required to build the spacecraft. Other than that difference in the definition, I believe we are saying the same thing.

Technology is tools. That's why we have a distinction between scientists and technologists.

[legion]

Ahh...so thats why we can't get back to the moon until 2020. We don't even know how we got there!

Are you fucking kidding me?

Our plans are completely different. Its more difficult to stay on the moon for an extended period of time like NASA is planning. Our health and safety standards are higher as a nation and this requires higher design standards from the engineers. Additionally, there are ancillary programs like ISS and Space Shuttle that have to be maintained until Constellation.

[legion]

"To Meriwether Lewis, esquire, captain of the first regiment of infantry of the United States of America:

"Your situation as secratary of the president of the United States, has made you aquainted with the objects of my confidential message of January 18, 1803, to the legislature; you have seen the act they passed, which, though expressed in general terms, was meant to sanction those objects, and you are appointed to carry them to execution.

"Instruments for ascertaining, by celestial observations, the geography of the country through which you will pass, have already been provided. Light articles for barter and presents among the Indians, arms for your attendants, say from ten to twelve men, boats, tents, and other traveling apparatus, with ammunition, medicine, surgical instruments and provisions, you will will have prepared, with such aids as the secretary at war can yield in his department; and from him also you will receive authority to engage among our troops, by voluntary agreement, the attendants abovementioned; over whom you, as thier commanding officer, are invested with all the powers the laws give in such a case.

"As you movements, while within the limits of the United States, will be better directed by occasional communications, adapted to circumstances as they arise, they will not be noticed here. What follows will respect your proceedings after your departure form the United States.

"Your mission has been communicated to the ministers here from France, Spain, and great Briton, and through them to their governments; ans such assurances given them as to its objects, as we trust will satisfy them. The country of Louisana having ceded by Spain to france, the passport you have from the minister of France, the representative of the present sovereign of the country, will be a protection with all its subjects; and that from the Minister of England will entitle you to the friendly aid of any traders of that allegiance with whom you may happen to meet.

"The object of your mission is to explore the Missouri River, and such principal streams of it, as, by its course and communication with the waters of the Pacific Ocean, whether the Columbia, Oregan, Colrado, or any other river, may offer the most direct and practible water-communication across the continent, for the purposes of commerce.

"Beginning at the mouth of the Missouri, you will take observations of latitude and longitude, at all remarkable points on the river, and especially at the mouths of rivers, at rapids, at islands, and other places and objects distinguished by such natural marks and characters, of a durable kind, as that they may with certainty be recognised hereafter. The courses of the river between these points of observation may be supplied by the compass, the log-line, and by time, corrected by the observations themselves. The variations of the needle, too, in different places, should be noticed.

"The interesting points of the portage between the heads of the Missouri, and of the water offering the best communication with the Pacific ocean, should also be fixed by observation; and the course of that water to the ocean, in the same manner as that of the Missouri.

"Your observations are to be taken with great pains and accuracy; to be entered distinctly and intelligibly for others as well as yourself; to comprehend all the elements necessary, witht he aid of the usual tales, to fix the lattitude and longitude of the places at which they were taken; and are to be rendered to the war-office, for the purpose of having the calculations made concurrently by proper persons within the United States. Several copies of these, as well as of your other notes, shoud be made at leisure times, and put into the care of the most trust worthy of your attendants to guard, by multiplying them against the accidental losses to which they will be exposed. A further guard would be, that one of these copies be on the cuticular membranes of the paper-birch, as less liable to injury from damp than common paper.

"The commerce which may be carried on with the people inhabiting the line you will pursue, renders a knowledge of those people important. You will therefore endeavour to make yourself acquainted, as far as a diligent pursuit of your journey shall admit, with the names of the nations and their numbers;

"The extent and limits of their possessions;
"Their relations with other tribes or natins;
"Their language, traditions, monuments;
"Their ordinary occupations in agriculture, fishing, hunting, war, arts, and the implements for these;
"Their food, clothing, and domestic accommodations:

"The diseases prevalent among them, and the remedies they use;
"Moral and physical circumstances which distinguish them from the tribes we know;
"Peculiarities in their laws, customs, and dispositions;
"And articles of commerce they may need or furnish, and to what extent.


"And, considering the interest which every nation has in extending and strengthening the authority of reason and justice among the people around them, it will be useful to acquire what knowledge you can of the state of morality, religion, and information amoung them; as it may better enable those who may endeavour to civilize and instruct them, to adapt their measures to the existing notions and practices of those on whom they are to operate.

"Other objects worthy of notice will be;
"The soil and face of the country, its growth and vegetable productions, especially those not of the United States;
"The animals of the country generally, and expecially those not known in the United States;
"The remains and accounts of any which may be deemed rare or extinct;
"The mineral productions of every kind, but more particularly metals, lime-stone, pit-coal, and saltpetre; salines and mineral waters, noting the temperature of the last, and such circumstances as may indicate their character;
"Volcanic appearances;
"Climate, as characterized by the thermometer, by the proportion of rainy, cloudy, and clear days; by lightning, hail, snow, ice; by the access and recess of frost; by the winds prevailing at different seasons; the dates at which particular plants put forth, or lose their flower or leaf; times of appearance of particular birds, reptiles or insects.


"Although your route will be along the channel of the Missouri, yet you will endeavour to inform yourself, by inquiry, of the character and extent of the country watered by its branches, and especially on its southern side. The North river, or Rio Bravo, which runs into the gulf of Mexico, and the North river, or Rio Colorado, which runs into the gulf of California, are understood to be the principal streams heading opposite to the waters of the Missouri, and running southwardly. Whether the dividing grounds between the Missouri and them are mountains or flat lands, what are their distance from the Missouri, the character of the intermediate country, and the people inhabiting it, are worthy of particular inquiry. The northern waters of the Missouri are less to be inquired after, because they have been ascertained to a considerable degree, and are still in a course of ascertainment by English traders and travellers; but if you can learn any thing certain of the most northern source of the Missisippi, and of its position relatively to the Lake of the Woods, it will be interesting to us. Some account too of the path of the Canadian traders from the Missisipi, at the mouth of the Ouisconsing to where it strikes the Missouri, and of the soil and rivers in its course, is desireable.

"In all your intercourse with the natives, treat them in the most friendly and conciliatory manner which their own conduct will admit; allay all jealousies as to the object of your journey; satisfy them of its innocence; make them acquainted with the position, extent, character, peaceable and commercial dispositions of the United States; of our wish to be neighbourly; friendly, and useful to them, and of our dispositions to a commercial intercourse with them; confer with them on the points most convenient as mutual emporiums, and the articles of most desirable interchange for them and us. If a few of their influential chiefs, within practicable distance, wish to visit us, arrange such a visit with them, and furnish them with authority to call on our officers on their entering the United States, to have them conveyed to this place at the public expense. If any of them shoudl wish to have some of their young people brought up with us, and taught such arts as may be useful to them, we will receive, instruct, and take care of them. Such a mission, whether of influential chiefs, or of young people, would give some security to your own party. Carry with you some matter of the kine-pox; inform those of them with whom you may be of its efficacy as a preservative from the small-pox, and instruct and encourage them in the use of it. This may be especially done wherever you winter.

"As it is impossible for us to foresee in what manner you will be received by those people, whether with hospitality or hostility, so is it impossible to prescribe the exact degree of perseverance with which you are to pursue your journey. We value too much the lives of citizens to offer them to probable destruction. Your numbers will be sufficient to secure you against the unauthorized opposition of individuals, or of small parties; but if a superior force, authorized, ro not authorized, by a nation, should be arrayed against yoru further passage, and inflexibly determined to arrest it, you must decline its further pursuit and return. In the loss of yourselves we should lose also the information you will have acquired. By returning safely with that, you may enable us to renew the essay with better calculated means. To your own discretion, therefore, must be left the degree of danger you may risk, and the point at which you should decline, only saying, we wish you to err on the side of your safety, and to bring back your party safe, even if it be with less information.

"As far up the Missouri as the white settlements extend, an intercourse will probably be found to exist between them and the Spanish post of St. Louis opposite Cahokia, or St. Genevieve opposite Kaskaskia. From still further up the river the traders may furnish a conveyance for letters. Beyond that you may perhaps be able to engage Indians to bring letters for the government to Cahokia, or Kaskaskia, on promising that they shall there receive such special compensation as your shall have stipulated with them. Avail yourself of these means to communicate to us, at seasonable intervals, a copy of your journal, notes and observations of every kind, putting into cypher whatever might do injury if betrayed.

"Should you reach the Pacific ocean, inform yourself of the circumstances which may decide whether the furs of those parts may not be collected as advantageously at the head of the Missour (convenient as is supposed to the waters of the Coorado and Oregan or Columbia) as at Nootka Sound, or any other point of that coast; and that trade be consequently conducted throught the Missouri and United States more beneficially than by the circumnavigation now practised.

"On your arrival on that coast, endeavour to learn if there be any port within your reach frequented by the sea vessels of any nation, and to send two of your trusty people back by sea, in such way as shall appear practicable, with a copy of your notes; and should you be of opinion that the return of your party by the way they went will be imminently dangerous, then ship the whole, and return by sea, by the way either of Cape Horn, or the Cape of Good Hope, as you shall be able. As you will be without money, clothes, or provisions, you must endeavour to use the credit of the United States to obtain them; for which purpose open letters of credit shall be furnished you, authorizing you to draw on the executive of the United States, or any of its officers, in any part of the world, on which draughts can be disposed of, and to apply with our recommendations to the consuls, agents, merchants, or citizens of any nation with which we have intercourse, assuring them, in our name, that any aids they may furnish you shall be honourably repaid, and on demand. Our consuls, Thomas Hewes, at Batavia, in Java, William Buchanan, in the Isles of France and Bourbon, and John Elmslie, at the Cape of Good Hope, will be able to supply your necessities, by draughts on us.

"Should you find it safe to return by the way you go, after sending two of our party round by sea, or with your whole party, if no conveyance by sea can be found, do so; making such observations on your return as may serve to supply, correct, or confirm those made on your outward journey.

"On reentering the United States and reaching a place of safety, discharge any of your attendants who may desire and deserve it, procuring for them immediate payment of all arrears of pay and clothing which may have incurred since their departure, and assure them that they shall be recommended to the liberality of the legislature for the grant of a soldier's portion of land each, as proposed in my message to congress, and repair yourself, with your papers, to the seat of government.

"To provide, on the accident of your death, against anarchy, dispersion, and the consequent danger to your party, and total failure of the enterprise, you are hereby authorized, by any instrument signed and written in your own hand, to name the person among them who shall succeed to the command on your decease, and by like instruments to change the nomination, from time to time, as further experience of the characters accompanying you shall point out superior fitness; and all the powers and authorities given to yourself are, in the event of your death, transferred to, and vested in the successor so named, with further power to him and his successors, in like manner to name each his successor, who, on the death of his predecessor, shall be invested with all the powers and authorities given to yourself. Given under my hand at the city of Washington, this twentieth day of June, 1803."

Thomas Jefferson
President of the United States of America

[Aratus]

we have a nuclear summit in d.c and a presidential decision
about the moon, helium 3 and mars let alone proud russians

[torchbearer]

Show me where in the constitution is NASA authorized?

where is the air force authorized?

[Agorism]

No reason to keep NASA.

[torchbearer]

NASA developed missile tech for our military. it is a research wing of the military, and technically could be folded under the air force. which would make it constitutional as a part of the military. national defense in the future will require space defense.

[noxagol]

where is the air force authorized?

I do believe that the Airforce is technically part of the Army, just like the Marines are technically part of the Navy.

[torchbearer]

I do believe that the Airforce is technically part of the Army, just like the Marines are technically part of the Navy.

never sure how that worked, since each branch seemed to have its own "air force", but then there was THE Air Force.
In the same way, we should make NASA, or its functions, apart of the military budget.
Can't have a free society if other nations are holding you at gun point with nuclear missile platforms hanging over our head. we need to have the tech to control the space above our country.

[Deinonychus]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/04/15/kaku.space.obama/

"Eventually, private enterprise will take over launching our astronauts."

Could this be the first thing Obama has done that is good?

[TinCanToNA]

If you agree it should be cut, why are you even complaining?!? Either you believe it should be cut or you don't.Is that a serious point, or are you being sarcastic? Are you seriously suggesting that there is no room for preferrence? Assuming you want to maximize liberty, do you have a preferrence as to whether you lose your freedom to privacy or your freedom to live?

[Anti Federalist]

You do realize that "space crap" such as satellites are integral to your daily life, correct?

If every satellite was to fall out of the sky tomorrow, I'd get along OK.

The space grid is critical to the control grid.

I'd just as soon see them fry, given my druthers.

[TinCanToNA]

If every satellite was to fall out of the sky tomorrow, I'd get along OK.

The space grid is critical to the control grid.

I'd just as soon see them fry, given my druthers.I think that's probably a bit naive, but such a scenario is difficult to quantify in its effects.

[Danke]

Does this mean they won't be coming out with any new flavors of Tang?

[RedStripe]

NASA is corporate welfare wrapped in a pretty package

[fatjohn]

If every satellite was to fall out of the sky tomorrow, I'd get along OK.

The space grid is critical to the control grid.

I'd just as soon see them fry, given my druthers.

Good luck in the next hurricane :p

[tmosley]

You do realize that "space crap" such as satellites are integral to your daily life, correct?

You do realize that most satellites were launched by private ventures rather than governments, right?

NASA hasn't done anything worthwhile in years. They are adrift in a sea of bureaucracy, and weighed by an anchor of their own inadequacies. Let the private sector handle it. Drop the regulations, and you'll see commercial spaceflights cheap enough for the average person to afford within 25 years at most, and the first space colonies in the same timeframe.

[legion]

You do realize that most satellites were launched by private ventures rather than governments, right?


Really? Unsubsidized satellites? News to me.