Help get DailyPaul out of denial [Archive] - Ron Paul Forums / Liberty Forest

rp08orbust

04-12-2010, 12:44 AM

Please help me demand that the title of the thread of http://www.dailypaul.com/node/131382 at DailyPaul.com be changed to something more truthful. As I just posted,

I second the request to change the title of the thread to something more truthful like "Ron Paul loses the SRLC straw poll to Mitt Romney by 1 vote". Let's lead honest presidential campaign reporting by example. We're never going to do better in the next straw poll unless we admit our own losses.

The rest of the thread is worth the read for getting a sense of how our movement has matured in three years (sadly, I don't think it has). I found this comment particularly interesting:

I must say that I am honestly ashamed to be called a member of C4L!! I have been a C4Ler since it began and a Ron Paul fan for longer then most of you have even been involved in politics. I was a staff member of SRLC and the way that C4Lers acted was a disgrace!!!

Ron Paul was not cheated out of the win!! As a matter of fact he would have come in 4th had it not been for the fact they we graciously reopened registration for C4l when it closed at 1 pm!!! C4L members acted like a bunch of little 2 year old's!! Is it the fault of SRLC that C4L can't tell their followers what time something closes? NO!!! What I saw this weekend from C4L was a total lack of civility!! Non of you want to change America! You just want to talk about changing things which remaining on the fringe!!

I know everyone is going to say I am some kind of sell out or some other non intelligent come back but as far as I am concerned, I could care less. I can see what's happening with those that follow Dr, Paul and it's the opposite of what you are all wanting!! When you act like you did this weekend you don't get people talking about the amazing speech Dr. Paul gave at SRLC, you get them talking about how most of you are a bunch of Jackasses!!

As far as all the threats of violence against staff members I will not even get into!! I love Dr, Paul but I am honestly ashamed to be numbered among those of C4L. Maybe next time pay attention to what time registration closes C4L!!

Reason

04-12-2010, 12:48 AM

meh

silus

04-12-2010, 12:51 AM

+/- 1 vote could be within a statistical error...:shrug

rp08orbust

04-12-2010, 12:55 AM

+/- 1 vote could be within a statistical error...:shrug

A straw poll isn't a statistical sample of the larger voting population, it is what it is: A contest among those who bother to walk up to the booth and fill out a ballot. If one candidate gets one more vote than another, then they win fair and square.

Did you read the post by one of the SRLC staff who claims that the rules were actually bent in our favor? I've seen this claim made by more than one person.

silus

04-12-2010, 01:06 AM

A straw poll isn't a statistical sample of the larger voting population, it is what it is: A contest among those who bother to walk up to the booth and fill out a ballot. If one person gets one more vote than another, then they win fair and square.
Yea, wrong term. But the point still remains. Human errors, uncounted or lost votes, fruad... Its possible when dealing with 1,000+ votes.

rp08orbust

04-12-2010, 01:18 AM

Yea, wrong term. But the point still remains. Human errors, uncounted or lost votes, fruad... Its possible when dealing with 1,000+ votes.

But contest results, no matter what kind of contest, are always stated with the assumption that the scores are accurate. We don't call a 112-111 basketball game a "tie" just because the scores both round to 50% and there may have been some bad calls by the refs.

And the only voting irregularities we know about were in our favor!

parocks

04-12-2010, 01:21 AM

I typically try to lead Ron Paul supporters away from delusional thinking, but in this particular case, yeah, it's not spin. Both vote percentages do round down to 24%.

The spin going over at freerepublic is that 400-500 votes is not a great result when you buy 800 tickets.

Please help me demand that the title of the thread of http://www.dailypaul.com/node/131382 at DailyPaul.com be changed to something more truthful. As I just posted,

The rest of the thread is worth the read for getting a sense of how our movement has matured in three years (sadly, I don't think it has). I found this comment particularly interesting:

libertybrewcity

04-12-2010, 01:21 AM

eh, it's really not that big of deal. seems to be only causing problems on the dailypaul forums.

rp08orbust

04-12-2010, 01:26 AM

eh, it's really not that big of deal. seems to be only causing problems on the dailypaul forums.

I wasn't trying to bring the argument here. But DailyPaul is the first stop for a bird's eye view of news about Ron Paul for a lot of people (including myself), so I think it's important for it to lead by example.

dr. hfn

04-12-2010, 01:43 AM

threats of violence?! fucking idiots! whoever missed registration is a moron

rp08orbust

04-12-2010, 02:00 AM

I typically try to lead Ron Paul supporters away from delusional thinking, but in this particular case, yeah, it's not spin. Both vote percentages do round down to 24%.

So what? If you round them to tenths of a percent, then it's 24.3% to 24.2%.

You don't seem to understand the difference between a statistical poll and a straw poll. A statistical poll attempts to measure the support of candidates among voters not present through sampling, meaning there are margins of error. A straw poll, on the other hand, is a contest among those actually present and voting. Mitt Romney won that contest fair and square.

The spin going over at freerepublic is that 400-500 votes is not a great result when you buy 800 tickets.

This is not spin, it is fact, and it is an utter disgrace. C4L leadership was playing to win, but apparently its members were just out to party.

BlackTerrel

04-12-2010, 02:55 AM

devil21

04-12-2010, 02:57 AM

Bigger fish to fry out there man.

Bman

04-12-2010, 02:59 AM

This is not spin, it is fact, and it is an utter disgrace.

Did they get rid of all 800 tickets?

rp08orbust

04-12-2010, 03:02 AM

Did they get rid of all 800 tickets?

Yes, they ran out, and serious patriots like Josh and Natalie couldn't get tickets from C4L. Fortunately, Torchbearer had some extras from others bailing out.

Bman

04-12-2010, 03:06 AM

Yes, they ran out, and serious patriots like Josh and Natalie couldn't get tickets from C4L. Fortunately, Torchbearer had some extras from others bailing out.

I can understand people not being able to make it when they previously thought they could, but lets say that number can't get any higher than 10%, how the f*&K didn't Ron get 700+ votes? What am I missing?

rp08orbust

04-12-2010, 03:07 AM

I can't really seem to care that much either way. People see the results they know what it is.

Actually based on the reaction I've been seeing I like this more and more than an landslide victory. A landslide victory and you get accusations of "stacking the deck" etc... Now I hear people saying "Paul and Romney virtually tie in GOP poll".

This was inadvertent but I honestly can't think we could have had a better result than losing by one vote.

Even if you believe that losing by one vote in this straw poll was the best outcome, you have to admit that this does not bode well for achieving our goals of winning more important things like the IA straw poll, the IA caucus, or the Louisiana caucus. This was practice for future straw polls and caucuses, and it didn't go well. Election officials are not going to be letting Ron Paul supporters into the caucuses late (like they did this time) because they didn't know what floor it was on or had to go potty.

rp08orbust

04-12-2010, 03:10 AM

Bigger fish to fry out there man.

Yes, there are bigger fish to fry in life, but Ron Paul 2012 is a pretty big one, don't you think? If Ron Paul supporters can't learn to admit their losses and learn from them, then they will keep losing.

rp08orbust

04-12-2010, 03:13 AM

I can understand people not being able to make it when they previously thought they could, but lets say that number can't get any higher than 10%, how the f*&K didn't Ron get 700+ votes? What am I missing?

You're not missing anything. Large numbers of ticket holders did not show up and vote. I would say less than half did, because surely some of the 438 votes Ron got were from non-C4Lers.

This was a huge difference from CPAC, where C4L bought 568 tickets but Ron Paul got 742 votes.

PS It sounds like we need to get Liberty Forest out of denial first ;)

Bman

04-12-2010, 03:18 AM

You're not missing anything. Large numbers of ticket holders did not show up and vote. I would say less than half did, because surely some of the 438 votes Ron got were from non-C4Lers.

This was a huge difference from CPAC, where C4L bought 568 tickets but Ron Paul got 742 votes.

PS It sounds like we need to get Liberty Forest out of denial first ;)

That's disappointing. Too bad we don't know who it was. I think all of those people owe Ron 100 push-ups, a marathon, and 10 hail Mary's!

rp08orbust

04-12-2010, 03:18 AM

You're not missing anything. Large numbers of ticket holders did not show up and vote. I would say less than half did, because surely some of the 438 votes Ron got were from non-C4Lers.

This was a huge difference from CPAC, where C4L bought 568 tickets but Ron Paul got 742 votes.

But it is history repeating itself. This happened at the Ames, IA straw poll in 2007. The Ron Paul campaign bought far more tickets for supporters than votes actually received and we were all surprised that he did not do much better.

Bman

04-12-2010, 03:28 AM

But it is history repeating itself. This happened at the Ames, IA straw poll in 2007. The Ron Paul campaign bought far more tickets for supporters than votes actually received and we were all surprised that he did not do much better.

When they do something like this they need someone to report to, to at least make sure they voted. If they don't they shouldn't be able to get tickets through the campaign again. If they did vote and we still lost we need to find who the pretenders are and do they same.

On some level that I haven't been able to place my finger on exactly there has never been a high enough level of accountability.

parocks

04-12-2010, 03:30 AM

Yeah, but if you only go to single digits, it's a 24 - 24 tie. You'll see news organizations doing that to help candidates they favor. I'd say Ron Paul won one and tied one of the 2 major straw polls. A good showing - better than anyone else.

On Freerepublic, most people don't like either Ron Paul or Mitt Romney, and they've been saying mostly that the results do not count, that both Romney and Paul bought their results. They prefer Palin over there, and they have their own special spin which takes into account how many tix the campaigns bought. Paul and Romney bought tix, so those votes apparently don't count.

What exactly is an utter disgrace?

That Ron Paul bought 800 tix and didn't get 800 votes?
Eh. I dunno. It would have been better if he got more votes than the tickets he bought, that's true. I'd be curious to know what happened there.

But I've seen so much that could be considered "utter disgrace" that you have to consider that the result was a good one in this case.

I was in New Hampshire for Ron Paul in January 2008. Somewhere between 20-50 volunteers in a house, doing pretty much nothing worthwhile. That was intentional apparently. So, in the all important New Hampshire, there were 2 parallel Ron Paul organizations, which did not seem to be communicating all that well.

With these Straw Polls, Ron Paul is playing the game, and winning. Not using resources efficiently, but getting results. A victory and a tie. Good results for someone who people say has no chance at all of winning. I mean, if Ron Paul has no chance of winning, why aren't the people who supposedly do have a chance of winning beating him?

So what? If you round them to tenths of a percent, then it's 24.3% to 24.2%.

You don't seem to understand the difference between a statistical poll and a straw poll. A statistical poll attempts to measure the support of candidates among voters not present through sampling, meaning there are margins of error. A straw poll, on the other hand, is a contest among those actually present and voting. Mitt Romney won that contest fair and square.

This is not spin, it is fact, and it is an utter disgrace.

rp08orbust

04-12-2010, 03:42 AM

Yeah, but if you only go to single digits, it's a 24 - 24 tie. You'll see news organizations doing that to help candidates they favor. I'd say Ron Paul won one and tied one of the 2 major straw polls. A good showing - better than anyone else.

I would have no problem with Michael Nystrom calling it a "virtual tie". But why engage in the same dishonesty that we loath so much when it is directed at us?

parocks

04-12-2010, 03:43 AM

Do we know that is what happened? Do we know that large numbers of ticket holders did not show up and vote? We know that 800 tickets were sold. Do we know who the tickets were sold to? Were 300 tickets sold to Gingrich? Where's the accountability? If I'm Gingrich, Palin or Romney, I'm gonna buy tickets from CfL, because those tickets were discounted. If I'm Gingrich, Palin or Romney, I'm going to have people on the inside at CfL (or as "inside" as I need to be to buy a ticket or tickets).

Also, have we started to accuse the people at the SRLC of cheating yet. We like to do that. We bought 800 tickets, got less than 500 votes. The vote counters at SRLC must've cheated. I'm surprised I haven't heard that one yet. It's a classic from the 08 campaign.

You're not missing anything. Large numbers of ticket holders did not show up and vote. I would say less than half did, because surely some of the 438 votes Ron got were from non-C4Lers.

This was a huge difference from CPAC, where C4L bought 568 tickets but Ron Paul got 742 votes.

PS It sounds like we need to get Liberty Forest out of denial first ;)

rp08orbust

04-12-2010, 03:53 AM

What exactly is an utter disgrace?

Most of us are hoping the 74-year-old Ron Paul makes the incredible sacrifice of running for president once more. There are thousands of C4Lers in Louisiana, and tens of thousands more in surrounding states, and yet C4L just barely managed to get rid of 800 tickets to the SRLC straw poll, which was widely recognized as the starting line for the 2012 presidential race. Among the 800 who took tickets from C4L, at most 438 (likely only 300 or so) made the relatively tiny sacrifice of following through and voting.

parocks

04-12-2010, 03:53 AM

I wouldn't call it dishonesty. I think the definition of "spin" is to attempt to describe the story in terms of the facts that are the most flattering to you. If there are 2 correct ways to measure the outcome, and one gives you a tie and the other gives you a 1 vote loss, you "spin" it, and use the measuring that's beneficial to you.

It isn't untrue that it was a 24% - 24% tie. Actually, technically, no, it wasn't a tie.
You say Romney 24% - Paul 24%. You don't really say the word "tie"

I would have no problem with Michael Nystrom calling it a "virtual tie". But why engage in the same dishonesty that we loath so much when it is directed at us?

raiha

04-12-2010, 03:58 AM

Sorry to hear of reports of moronic behaviour.
Was there moronic behaviour?
Most drunkeness is moronic to people who are not drunk. What about violence threats?
RP is already labelled as a kook by those that have their own agendas. Larrikinism won't help endear any possible new supporters. I don't think youth is an excuse. Keep the drunkenness and politicking separate

parocks

04-12-2010, 04:05 AM

Yeah, but he still got 24%, and he won CPAC. He beat Palin both times. Everyone knows that Romney has deep pockets and will spend millions of his own dollars for no reason at all. If you want to say that what happened with the voting and Ron Paul at SRLC was an utter disgrace, ok. But what about everyone else, who did worse than Paul? What about Palin? Doesn't she have like a million facebook friends or something? And she gets fewer votes than Ron Paul. There will be no need for a handpainted sign "Google Sarah Palin" or "Who is Sarah Palin?" Every man woman and child in the US knows who Sarah Palin is, and Ron Paul got more votes than her. And this was at an event that Sarah Palin spoke at. Yes, it would be best if we could nail down all our votes, but we still won the straw polls CPAC + SRLC.

Maybe we can say, yeah, we did bad at SRLC, but everyone else did worse.

Most of us are hoping the 74-year-old Ron Paul makes the incredible sacrifice of running for president once more. There are thousands of C4Lers in Louisiana, and tens of thousands more in surrounding states, and yet C4L just barely managed to get rid of 800 tickets to the SRLC straw poll, which was widely recognized as the starting line for the 2012 presidential race. Among the 800 who took tickets from C4L, at most 438 (likely only 300 or so) made the relatively tiny sacrifice of following through and voting.

rp08orbust

04-12-2010, 04:07 AM

Do we know that is what happened? Do we know that large numbers of ticket holders did not show up and vote? We know that 800 tickets were sold. Do we know who the tickets were sold to? Were 300 tickets sold to Gingrich? Where's the accountability? If I'm Gingrich, Palin or Romney, I'm gonna buy tickets from CfL, because those tickets were discounted. If I'm Gingrich, Palin or Romney, I'm going to have people on the inside at CfL (or as "inside" as I need to be to buy a ticket or tickets).

We have no way of knowing how many tickets were taken by opponents, but some undoubtedly were. But if there had been widespread interest in winning the straw poll among Ron Paul supporters, the tickets would have sold quickly. Instead, ticket sales were so slow that they had to first resort to advertising the discounted ticket offer on the web for all to see, and then give them away for FREE on the web when not even those were selling. So the underlying problem is a general lack of interest in the straw poll.

Also, have we started to accuse the people at the SRLC of cheating yet. We like to do that. We bought 800 tickets, got less than 500 votes. The vote counters at SRLC must've cheated. I'm surprised I haven't heard that one yet. It's a classic from the 08 campaign.

There's plenty of that at the Daily Paul right now.

parocks

04-12-2010, 04:12 AM

I'm guessing we aren't talking about drunkenness.

It's New Orleans after all.

I have no idea what exactly we're talking about, but remember, we're the ones who pelted Fox News with snowballs 2 days before the New Hampshire primary in 08. That is the bar. Mere drunkenness does not compare.

Sorry to hear of reports of moronic behaviour.
Was there moronic behaviour?
Most drunkeness is moronic to people who are not drunk. What about violence threats?
RP is already labelled as a kook by those that have their own agendas. Larrikinism won't help endear any possible new supporters. I don't think youth is an excuse. Keep the drunkenness and politicking separate

parocks

04-12-2010, 04:28 AM

Well, it seems that you are paying attention. You seem to have a detailed factual analysis.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's still really early. If Ron Paul actually announces that he's running for President, it's a different story.

And, it's a learning experience for everyone involved. The body wranglers will only get better and better at all of this.

So, what conclusions can possibly be drawn?

1) Is it possible to avoid announcing exactly how many tickets you bought?
I'm not sure exactly how it benefitted Ron Paul to announce that he bought 800 tickets. I'm not saying don't buy the tickets, do buy the tickets.

2) Can you figure out how to get tickets in the right hands without announcing at all that you bought a bunch of tickets?

3) Find out before hand what time you have to get there to register. I heard that was a problem.

We have no way of knowing how many tickets were taken by opponents, but some undoubtedly were. But if there had been widespread interest in winning the straw poll among Ron Paul supporters, the tickets would have sold quickly. Instead, ticket sales were so slow that they had to first resort to advertising the discounted ticket offer on the web for all to see, and then give them away for FREE on the web when not even those were selling. So the underlying problem is a general lack of interest in the straw poll.

There's plenty of that at the Daily Paul right now.

Paulatized

04-12-2010, 04:49 AM

From a first time attender's perspective. This is what I saw.
The "front" of the movement, what others see, gives the impression of irresponsibility and immaturity in many ways. Not to mention I was disappointed with the c4l booth. It too gave the impression of "flying by the seat of their pants." If we are to be taken seriously we need to bump the organization up a notch or two to improve our perception with the general public or we will continue to be seen as "fringe." Personal responsibility needs to come with freedom.

Bman

04-12-2010, 04:52 AM

Paulatized

04-12-2010, 05:18 AM

I will be glad to elaborate but I have to go to work now. I will be back on about 6 this evening.

MelissaWV

04-12-2010, 06:27 AM

Ron Paul was not cheated out of the win!! As a matter of fact he would have come in 4th had it not been for the fact they we graciously reopened registration for C4l when it closed at 1 pm!!! C4L members acted like a bunch of little 2 year old's!! Is it the fault of SRLC that C4L can't tell their followers what time something closes? NO!!! What I saw this weekend from C4L was a total lack of civility!! Non of you want to change America! You just want to talk about changing things which remaining on the fringe!!

I wanted to address this portion of the quote in the OP.

This is mentioned in other threads already, but people were in the wrong place, and were there too late to get to the right place on time. I have yet to hear of other candidates' supporters having the same issues, and other supporters are not mentioned as having been locked out of the voting area. Of the 40 people roaming around lost, 36 of them were supposedly allowed in after someone "stood up for" the Paul supporters. There is supposedly video of this. This means 36 people were let in post-registration and voted.

What I wish people would consider is the following (and I'll even put it two ways):

1. If we heard, right now, that 38 Romney supporters got there after 1pm and were allowed in after registration, and are the only reason he won over Dr. Paul, how would this board react? Wouldn't there be cries of "SRLC cheating"?

2. If we had won by anything less than 35 votes, do you think Romney's people would have failed to notice the people being let in after registration closed? Do you think the video of Paul supporters demanding to be let in to vote after the room was closed would look favorable, or would it only further confirm the idea that we're all a bunch of angry kooks who can't get our act together? What would the headlines look like right now? Most importantly, do you think Dr. Paul would have been proud of a win like that?

The most disappointing part of SRLC isn't a "loss" to me, since it's really a tie. The disappointment comes because of the organization (or lack thereof) of people who spent time and money getting there and didn't do what they went there to do. If that continues, we're not going to do any better than we did in 2008 if Dr. Paul decides to run again.

j6p

04-12-2010, 07:12 AM

low preference guy

04-12-2010, 10:32 AM

To tell you the truth, daily paul is a lot better then RPF. At least they dont throw insults at people who disagree with one another. For the poster who started this thread the title sounds fine. It was a tie, get over it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Dude, are you sure you read the Daily Paul? Their flame wars are way more intense than those here at RPF.