Dial 911 and die (another one)

[Anti Federalist]

Distressed, lost his job, suicidal man, carrying a knife, in his home.

Wife and kids, out of the house safely, call 911 for help. (comment section has transcript of cop dispatch call confirming that the wife and kids were outside)

Cops barge into home, confront man, taze him, then blow him away.

Look, everybody is free to take their own chances, but, more and more, if you bring cops into any sort of domestic fray like this, someone you care and are upset about may very well end up dead.


Police officer shoots and kills man in eastern New Orleans

By The Times-Picayune
April 10, 2010, 4:34PM

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2010/04/police_officer_shoots_and_kill.html

A New Orleans police officer fatally shot a 39-year-old man who was suicidal and armed with a knife, according to a news release from the police department.

The man, Brian Harris, refused to drop his weapon even after officers issued verbal commands and shot him with a Taser, the release said.

The police officers entered Harris' home in the 7700 block of Allison Road in eastern New Orleans on Friday night after his wife called to report he was threatening suicide and may have overdosed on sleeping pills, according to the police account. Harris barricaded his bedroom door but eventually pushed the furniture aside, allowing the officers to enter. They found him in the bed holding a knife, the news release said.

After Harris moved toward the officers, a Seventh District officer fired two shots, hitting Harris in the torso, the news release said. Harris was transported to University Hospital and died a short time later.

The officer who fired the fatal shots was reassigned to administrative duty, as is standard procedure after an officer-involved shooting. He was not identified in the news release. The Orleans Parish District Attorney's Office and the police department's Public Integrity Bureau are involved in the investigation.

On Saturday afternoon, no one answered the door at the Harris home, a handsome brick ranch-style house with a manicured lawn that included a knee-high praying cherub statue.

Harris had recently lost his job, said a woman who lives next-door to the family, which includes Harris' wife and their three children, who are all under pre-teen age.

"He'd be out there playing with his kids and working on his garden," said the neighbor, who wouldn't give her name. "Three beautiful children. They were here when I moved here three years ago."

The neighbor said that she was alerted Friday night by a "boom," that she did not recognize as a gunshot.

"I've heard gunshots before," she said. "I came to the front room and I could hear his wife crying."

The neighborhood, off Mayo Boulevard near the lakeshore, has recovered since the flooding devastation of Hurricane Katrina and the levee failures. On Saturday, it was a quiet collection of single-family homes.

[Anti Federalist]

///

[low preference guy]

it's horrible, and it's not the first time.

should we have a law enforcement forum to group threads like this together?

[squarepusher]

investigation, conducted by the police department themselves, will find the officer was not at fualt in this shooting in some months ahead

[heavenlyboy34]

it's horrible, and it's not the first time.

should we have a law enforcement forum to group threads like this together?


Sounds like a good idea. :cool: It will help people who are still under the delusion that the government police are there to protect them.

[BlackTerrel]

The police officers entered Harris' home in the 7700 block of Allison Road in eastern New Orleans on Friday night after his wife called to report he was threatening suicide and may have overdosed on sleeping pills, according to the police account. Harris barricaded his bedroom door but eventually pushed the furniture aside, allowing the officers to enter. They found him in the bed holding a knife, the news release said.

After Harris moved toward the officers, a Seventh District officer fired two shots, hitting Harris in the torso, the news release said. Harris was transported to University Hospital and died a short time later.

Guy comes at you with a knife what do you expect?

[low preference guy]

Anti Federalist, I see you are interested in this topic.

Why don't you buy call911anddie.com? People here might volunteer to help you with a webpage, if you don't know how to make one.

[Anti Federalist]

Guy comes at you with a knife what do you expect?

To be blown away. At least that's what comes from the shoot first, ask questions later mindset of cops these days.

What should they have done?

Maybe close the door, maybe call in a "negotiator" such as is used in hostage situations, maybe hang back and assess the situation for a minute instead of charging into the house. You know, act like the professionals they are always whining to the rest of us that they are.

This is why cops should not have been introduced into the mix in the first place.

That's the whole point of these continuous posts of mine.

If something like that goes down in your home, unless you want the person to die, call anybody but cops.

[Anti Federalist]

Anti Federalist, I see you are interested in this topic.

Why don't you buy call911anddie.com? People here might volunteer to help you with a webpage, if you don't know how to make one.

There was a fellow out west that was running a police abuse website that was a great resource.

It burned him out so bad he had to give it up.

I already spend way too much time doing this.

But it's an idea that has crossed my mind and that I haven't given up on. Thanks for the tip.;)

[Danke]

Looks like the cops did their job and prevented a suicide.

[Anti Federalist]

Looks like the cops did their job and prevented a suicide.

Ya, that they did...

[BlackTerrel]

What should they have done?

Maybe close the door, maybe call in a "negotiator" such as is used in hostage situations,

Sure guy is coming at you with a knife - quick call the hostage negotiator.


maybe hang back and assess the situation for a minute instead of charging into the house.

Assess what? Guy is in the house with a knife threatening to kill himself.


This is why cops should not have been introduced into the mix in the first place.

That's the whole point of these continuous posts of mine.

If something like that goes down in your home, unless you want the person to die, call anybody but cops.

The guy had already OD'd on sleeping pills, had a knife and was suicidal. I doubt there was much saving.

I'm the first to point out abuse of police power. But anyone looking at this objectively is not going to side with you on this one.

[Reason]

Looks like the cops did their job and prevented a suicide.

:(

[noxagol]

Guy comes at you with a knife what do you expect?

That's what tasers are suppose to be for. There were multiple officers, one of them could have used one. I'm sure they didn't all run out of charges.

[pcosmar]

Sure guy is coming at you with a knife - quick call the hostage negotiator.

.

This may sound simplistic, but,,
Disarm Him.

Forget the lame excuses, and get some training.
I am a scrawny male, and I have removed knives from 2 attackers. ( no, not at the same time)

If they can't handle a depressed and sedated man without using deadly force they need a new line of work.
:(

[MelissaWV]

Harris barricaded his bedroom door but eventually pushed the furniture aside, allowing the officers to enter. They found him in the bed holding a knife, the news release said.

I am with AF on this one.

They already had any potential hostages the guy could have in there with him, outside. They could have asked the wife if there was anyone in the house other than this guy. The guy was barricaded in the room and sedated, ffs. How about this one: let him fall asleep. Get someone to talk him down and out of there. He didn't "come at them" until he removed furniture from the door and let them in. It sounds like they came at him. He was in bed.

There were a number of things that could have been done, but the silly part is that the police are acting faster and faster on these calls for a number of reasons. If the guy killed himself, the wife might have insisted that the police could have stopped him. If he caused damage (say he decided to set the room on fire while he was barricaded in there), then the wife would have sued the department, too. Somehow the solution has become to rush into situations that are dangerous for all involved.

[tropicangela]

If he OD'd on sleeping pills, to me it would seem he'd be easier to disarm.

[Anti Federalist]

Somehow the solution has become to rush into situations that are dangerous for all involved.

Except, it seems, when the situation calls for rushing in as fast as possible to put a stop to things.

Like mass shootings where people are hemmed up and getting shot.

Then the cops hang back.

[idirtify]

Sure guy is coming at you with a knife - quick call the hostage negotiator.



Assess what? Guy is in the house with a knife threatening to kill himself.



The guy had already OD'd on sleeping pills, had a knife and was suicidal. I doubt there was much saving.

I'm the first to point out abuse of police power. But anyone looking at this objectively is not going to side with you on this one.

I think you are ignoring the reason the cops were called. They were called to save/protect a suicidal person; NOT to KILL him. If there is ever a reason to use non-lethal weapons, it’s with potential suicide victims.

[Anti Federalist]

I'm the first to point out abuse of police power. But anyone looking at this objectively is not going to side with you on this one.

I understand your point, and on this one, I'm not calling "abuse", exactly.

I agree this isn't Oscar Grant being executed or Dan Polver getting his teeth knocked out of his head.

I'm using it as yet another cautionary tale about dialing 911.

Introduce cops into a volatile domestic situation these days and somebody, 99 times out of a 100 the very person you want to help, will end up dead.

This wasn't an armed robber or hostage taking bank heist.

It was a depressed, distraught, out of work man who needed to be helped, not gutshot.

[M House]

I wonder if I should touch this one. Well I stabbed myself with a knife pulled it out and tossed it into the woods. I also called 911 and didn't have too much of a problem, however the cops did search me for the knife. At that point, I had "lost" alot of blood. So it was a bit assinying, but I lived.

[BlackTerrel]

This may sound simplistic, but,,
Disarm Him.

Forget the lame excuses, and get some training.
I am a scrawny male, and I have removed knives from 2 attackers. ( no, not at the same time)

And if it happened 10 times maybe twice you end up getting stabbed. So 20% chance you get stabbed - you willing to take those odds?

I try not to come into these things with a preexisting bias, and I try to think what I'd do if I was in these peoples shoes.

If I'm the police, the guy comes at me with a knife yes I would shoot him. I wouldn't think maybe I can disarm him, because maybe I can maybe I cannot. If I have a gun and someone is charging at me with a knife I will shoot ...every time.

From the other perspective I have very little sympathy. I think wanting to commit suicide is retarded. Doing it in front of your wife and kids is even more fucked up. And then charging at people with a knife is dumb as well. You charge at armed people with a knife - what the fuck do you expect?

[low preference guy]

And if it happened 10 times maybe twice you end up getting stabbed. So 20% chance you get stabbed - you willing to take those odds?

I try not to come into these things with a preexisting bias, and I try to think what I'd do if I was in these peoples shoes.

If I'm the police, the guy comes at me with a knife yes I would shoot him. I wouldn't think maybe I can disarm him, because maybe I can maybe I cannot. If I have a gun and someone is charging at me with a knife I will shoot ...every time.

From the other perspective I have very little sympathy. I think wanting to commit suicide is retarded. Doing it in front of your wife and kids is even more fucked up. And then charging at people with a knife is dumb as well. You charge at armed people with a knife - what the fuck do you expect?

Someone invaded the guy's house, they were armed, and he had a knife to defend himself. Then he was killed. It was clearly the execution of an innocent man in his own house. Only an idiot will not see that.

Furthermore, he was tased down already, if they weren't incompetents they could have disarm him.

[amy31416]

If a police officer is of the mindset that he is there to protect and defend a citizen, rather than see him as the enemy and a "disposable" human being--I'm sure these officers could have figured out a way to take this guy down without killing him.

The officers have:

1. Protective clothing
2. "Non-lethal" devices such as tazers, billy clubs, hand cuffs and their defensive/offensive training.
3. Alleged experience in dealing with less-than-rational people.

It's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that police officers are increasingly being trained to view citizens as the enemy, rather than the people they are supposed to defend. I suppose it could be a matter of better reporting these days (on the internet), but that's almost irrelevant. If it's been going on for 50 years, it's been wrong for 50 years.

[Krugerrand]

...

From the other perspective I have very little sympathy. I think wanting to commit suicide is retarded. Doing it in front of your wife and kids is even more fucked up. And then charging at people with a knife is dumb as well. You charge at armed people with a knife - what the fuck do you expect?

He may have got what he expected. It's something of an assisted suicide.

[Anti Federalist]

If a police officer is of the mindset that he is there to protect and defend a citizen, rather than see him as the enemy and a "disposable" human being--I'm sure these officers could have figured out a way to take this guy down without killing him.

The officers have:

1. Protective clothing
2. "Non-lethal" devices such as tazers, billy clubs, hand cuffs and their defensive/offensive training.
3. Alleged experience in dealing with less-than-rational people.

Exactly.


It's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that police officers are increasingly being trained to view citizens as the enemy, rather than the people they are supposed to defend. I suppose it could be a matter of better reporting these days (on the internet), but that's almost irrelevant. If it's been going on for 50 years, it's been wrong for 50 years.

There has always been a propensity for the cops to thump heads. But this was limited mostly to the big cities.

I recall an incident from my time living in the FL Keys, on a little island resort development called Key Colony Beach. They had only one cop in town, named Clay. I watched him talk down a drunken man in the local marina barroom who was waving around a .45 ACP. Not only did Clay talk him down, but after it was all over, arrested him for one night in the drunk tank.

That's the type of "Andy Griffith" police work that isn't done anymore. Even the smallest of towns now have militarized SWAT teams, all filled with ranks of "Francis" types hut hutting around and just itching for the chance to blow somebody away.

[Krugerrand]

The use of unnecessary violence in the apprehension of the Blues Brothers has been approved.

[amy31416]

Exactly.



There has always been a propensity for the cops to thump heads. But this was limited mostly to the big cities.

I recall an incident from my time living in the FL Keys, on a little island resort development called Key Colony Beach. They had only one cop in town, named Clay. I watched him talk down a drunken man in the local marina barroom who was waving around a .45 ACP. Not only did Clay talk him down, but after it was all over, arrested him for one night in the drunk tank.

That's the type of "Andy Griffith" police work that isn't done anymore. Even the smallest of towns now have militarized SWAT teams, all filled with ranks of "Francis" types hut hutting around and just itching for the chance to blow somebody away.

And it's not just about this suicidal guy, it's about the kid that was shot while handcuffed by BART police, the MD mayor whose dogs were killed, the old guy on the tractor who went the wrong way during a parade, the back-talking girls who get thrown across a room and have their heads slammed into a wall, the woman who is strip-searched against her will, etc. etc. etc.

I'm sure there are "Andy Griffith" type policemen still--in fact, I just saw a video the other day of a policeman who just went up and chatted with some war protesters who were walking across the country. But it certainly does seem rare.

[MelissaWV]

And if it happened 10 times maybe twice you end up getting stabbed. So 20% chance you get stabbed - you willing to take those odds?

I try not to come into these things with a preexisting bias, and I try to think what I'd do if I was in these peoples shoes.

If I'm the police, the guy comes at me with a knife yes I would shoot him. I wouldn't think maybe I can disarm him, because maybe I can maybe I cannot. If I have a gun and someone is charging at me with a knife I will shoot ...every time.

From the other perspective I have very little sympathy. I think wanting to commit suicide is retarded. Doing it in front of your wife and kids is even more fucked up. And then charging at people with a knife is dumb as well. You charge at armed people with a knife - what the fuck do you expect?

If you are thinking the guy is so dangerous, why would you ask him to unbarricade himself (he's in there alone) and let you in (into the dangerous situation)? Since you know everyone else is accounted for, why do you barge in to a room once the furniture is moved and confront a (presumably) violent/suicidal guy who is (presumably) on drugs, rather than wait for a negotiator? The guy is only going to "come at you" once you tell him to remove the furniture, he does it, and you walk into his room. He did not come charging out of the house at the police. He didn't even come staggering out of his room in their general direction.

[spudea]

The police officer chose to kill. Are officers no longer trained in non-lethal take down shots? A shot in the arm or leg would have stopped him and dropped the knife and he'd still be alive.

[Zippyjuan]

Consider the view if the police had not entered the home and the man committed suicide. Would people be on the police for doing nothing while a man tried to kill himself and possibly his family? So the cops enter the home. The man threatens with the knife. Cops tell him to put it down. Repeatedly. Man does not comply but instead rushes at the cops. How would you respond in the situation? It is so easy to try to second guess what should have been done.

Now if the cops had barged in, breaking down the door with guns blazing and shooting anybody in the house, that would be a severe over-reaction and a valid point of criticism.

Tragic events can happen with police around. They also happen without police around. Today there were millions of people who interacted with police without any abuse or mis-conduct occuring.

[MelissaWV]

Consider the view if the police had not entered the home and the man committed suicide. Would people be on the police for doing nothing while a man tried to kill himself and possibly his family? So the cops enter the home. The man threatens with the knife. Cops tell him to put it down. Repeatedly. Man does not comply but instead rushes at the cops. How would you respond in the situation? It is so easy to try to second guess what should have been done.

Now if the cops had barged in, breaking down the door with guns blazing and shooting anybody in the house, that would be a severe over-reaction and a valid point of criticism.

Tragic events can happen with police around. They also happen without police around. Today there were millions of people who interacted with police without any abuse or mis-conduct occuring.

That's not what the story said, either...

Good gracious, why are people adding things to the original article?

Anyhow, yes, part of the reason police leap into action is because they're "liable" if they don't. Hurray for lawsuits, I guess, and the threat of them. It's just way easier to save this guy from killing himself... by killing him.

[low preference guy]

The question is not "how would you respond in this situation". The question is, how would a property trained official should respond. They have protective clothing, non-lethal weapons. If they are so incompetent as to not be able to face a guy with a knife, they should just go home instead of killing him. The idiocy of the people here defending the police is unbelievable.

[bkreigh]

according to the article i see nothing wrong. To be honest i think this is what the guy wanted because he didnt have the gonads to end his life himself. Instead he wanted somebody else to do it. Now the cop has to live with killing this guy for the rest of his life. Im on the cops side on this as of right now but that could change if more info comes out.

[pcosmar]

Today there were millions of people who interacted with police without any abuse or mis-conduct occuring.

:(
That says way more about the level of compliance conditioning that it does quality policing.

:(:(

[Anti Federalist]

Now if the cops had barged in, breaking down the door with guns blazing and shooting anybody in the house, that would be a severe over-reaction and a valid point of criticism.



That's very close to what happened here.

[BlackTerrel]

If you are thinking the guy is so dangerous, why would you ask him to unbarricade himself (he's in there alone) and let you in (into the dangerous situation)? Since you know everyone else is accounted for, why do you barge in to a room once the furniture is moved and confront a (presumably) violent/suicidal guy who is (presumably) on drugs, rather than wait for a negotiator?

Look I don't care too expend too much effort arguing about this because I really don't care but you guys are coming at this from a very biased place:

1. What do you mean wait for a negotiator? What kind of negotiation is going on here? "Hey how about you don't kill yourself and we slip you a pizza"...

2. How long are they supposed to wait while I imagine his wife is screaming that he swallowed pills. They wait too long - he dies, and they get accused of waiting too long - either way they're to blame.

I think in this sort of situation the police should try and talk the guy down and get him to the hospital. If he instead charges at them with a knife I think they are fully justified in putting him down.

The problem with something like this is by making a big deal of situations like this is that when the cops really abuse their power (which happens a lot) you become the boy who cried wolf.


The question is not "how would you respond in this situation". The question is, how would a property trained official should respond. They have protective clothing, non-lethal weapons. If they are so incompetent as to not be able to face a guy with a knife, they should just go home instead of killing him. The idiocy of the people here defending the police is unbelievable.

How easy is it do you think to disarm a guy with a knife? These aren't navy seals... they're local cops.

I'd say even a well trained person could disarm him maybe 8 out 10 times. And 2 out of 10 times they get stabbed. Is that a risk you're supposed to take when someone is coming at you with a knife?

[pcosmar]

How easy is it do you think to disarm a guy with a knife? These aren't navy seals... they're local cops.



It's damn easy. And professional, trained knife fighters are rare.
Fools with knives are quite easy to disarm.

If they are both incapable of verbal skills, and basic defensive tactics they should drop the badge in the nearest gutter and walk away.
:cool:

[MelissaWV]

BT,

If you are talking about the police "talking him down," then you are talking about negotiation. Hostage negotiators are also called in when the hostage taker is the hostage, though not as often for obvious reasons (who gives a shit if the guy offs himself, right?). You're making assumptions now about what the wife is or is not saying, and I had no idea that someone's spouse dictates how the police respond. How about if she was saying "He'll probably just fall asleep soon, just leave him be for a little bit; we're all out of the room so we're safe"? We don't know, so that's just an assumption on your part.

You also keep leaving out the part where the guy was barricaded in, and the police asked him to remove the barricade, then burst into the room. He was still "on the bed" when they came into the room. He didn't charge out of the room, or meet them at the door, or run outside screaming and waving a knife. He was in bed and they came into his room, knowing he was drugged up.

I guess they killed him for his own safety. God knows that a police officer can't use a non-lethal weapon. I guess using pepper spray was too dangerous, since he might have cut himself by accident with the knife, and tasing him might have done the same, or perhaps shooting him in the arm or leg was out of the question? It's botched, and it's total bullshit.

[low preference guy]

I'd say even a well trained person could disarm him maybe 8 out 10 times. And 2 out of 10 times they get stabbed. Is that a risk you're supposed to take when someone is coming at you with a knife?

If you don't want to take the risk, leave the guy alone and go home. Don't kill him.

I won't hold my breath, but I hope the assassin rots in jail. He is a risk to all of our lives.

[BlackTerrel]

You also keep leaving out the part where the guy was barricaded in, and the police asked him to remove the barricade, then burst into the room. He was still "on the bed" when they came into the room. He didn't charge out of the room, or meet them at the door, or run outside screaming and waving a knife. He was in bed and they came into his room, knowing he was drugged up.

If the guy is suicidal and barricaded in the room - wouldn't you ask him to open the door?

[low preference guy]

If the guy is suicidal and barricaded in the room - wouldn't you ask him to open the door?

No if you would kill him if he has a knife.

[ghengis86]

Sorry but the real problem are the people not the cops.

First, since they've been conditioned their entire life to rely on the state for everything they call the cops. Next, since they've been taught all their life that when something doesn't go the way they want, they can blame someone else and know that a judge or jury will give them tons of money. Finally, insert a well armed
mouth breather with a predisposition to sociopathy who knows some idiot would love to sue him and his department and presto-change-o, "we had to shoot him, we were in fear of our lives."

people have been taught their entire lives that whatever a cop says is gospel, and you get family members of the deceased 'understanding' if not agreeing that their loved one made the mistake of being in the proximity of the cops.

Never call the police, never call the police, never call the police

[Anti Federalist]

Sorry but the real problem are the people not the cops.

First, since they've been conditioned their entire life to rely on the state for everything they call the cops. Next, since they've been taught all their life that when something doesn't go the way they want, they can blame someone else and know that a judge or jury will give them tons of money. Finally, insert a well armed
mouth breather with a predisposition to sociopathy who knows some idiot would love to sue him and his department and presto-change-o, "we had to shoot him, we were in fear of our lives."

people have been taught their entire lives that whatever a cop says is gospel, and you get family members of the deceased 'understanding' if not agreeing that their loved one made the mistake of being in the proximity of the cops.

Never call the police, never call the police, never call the police

The bold is my larger point in posting this.

I'll agree with the detractors, to a point, that there is some merit to their argument.

But, the larger point here is that the whole thing could have been avoided if somebody didn't dial 911 like a mindless drone.

Call anybody but FFS, don't call cops.

[Kotin]

keep these coming AF.. people need to be reminded of this.


such amazing bullshit.. really there are no suitable words.

[Anti Federalist]

keep these coming AF.. people need to be reminded of this.


such amazing bullshit.. really there are no suitable words.

Also NOLA related, though I'm pretty sure this has been posted already.



Police shot unarmed civilians after Katrina, officer testifies

Read more: http://blogs.kansascity.com/crime_scene/2010/04/police-shot-unarmed-civilians-after-katrina-officer-testifies.html#ixzz0l0WVk9QA


Federal prosecutors have accused New Orleans police of shooting unarmed civilians on the city's Danzinger Bridge days after Hurricane Katrina -- and then trying to cover up the incident. One officer has already entered a guilty plea, and yesterday, he spelled out what he said happened. From the Times-Picayune:

Hunter, 33, said a New Orleans police sergeant fired an assault rifle at wounded civilians at close range after other officers stopped shooting and after it was clear that the police were not taking fire. He also says he saw another officer in a car fire a shotgun at a fleeing man's back, although the man did nothing suggesting he was a threat to police.

That man, the Times-Picayune says, was severely mentally disabled, and he died as a result of the shooting, one of two who were killed. Four others were wounded. The attorneys for the accused police say they didn't do anything wrong and, if anything, feel more confident about their case after this latest development -- though they're not saying why.

[Gideon]

Guy comes at you with a knife what do you expect?


Correction:

Cops enter home of man who is holding a knife.

Man's wife and children have already left the house.

The only possible "victim" remains the man, inside his own home, with a knife.


We had a very similar situation here in San Jose a few years back, except that the "victim" was a woman in her kitchen, holding a large vegetable chopper.

The cop felt "threatened," killed her in her kitchen instead of simply backing away, went on admin leave, was exonerated, and is back on the street.

Calling 911 is suicide.

[pcosmar]

Also NOLA related, though I'm pretty sure this has been posted already.

.
I remember this from long ago.
I remember arguing with several defending the cops.

I take no joy in being proved right. :(

[Anti Federalist]

I remember this from long ago.
I remember arguing with several defending the cops.

I take no joy in being proved right. :(

Read this to get the blood pressure up:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=240039

[Paulitical Correctness]

Call anybody but FFS, don't call cops.

Didn't read the article because I don't want to get PO'd right now, but this.

It still irks me when I try to tell people this and they think I'm crazy. I blew up at a friend for calling the cops while we were eating out one night. Some guys started fighting and it was over in less than a minute. The guys left the building and the manager came out and asked that nobody call the cops. Before they got to their cars though here comes half a dozen "heroes".

His defense was "somebody could've gotten hurt" to which I replied "why didn't you break the fight up yourself?"

Seriously. I wish I was alive in the days when people handled shit on their own without relying on thugs. :mad:

[catdd]

We're just animals to them anyway so why not put us down when we show signs of being mad?
Tazer didn't work, my ass.