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View Full Version : Shouldn't we also focus on fighting and spreading awareness about 'Net Neutrality'?




Sentient Void
04-08-2010, 01:11 PM
Net Neutrality is another regulation that the FCC and other govt agencies would like to see come into law to regulate internet service providers and quite probably eventually expand (as many regulations always ends up trying to do) to be justified into general regulation of the internet. Obviously it was given a very nice and helpful sounding name, much like The Patriot Act was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality#Opponents

"Neutrality proponents claim that telecom companies seek to impose a tiered service model in order to control the pipeline and thereby remove competition, create artificial scarcity, and oblige subscribers to buy their otherwise uncompetitive services. Many believe net neutrality to be primarily important as a preservation of current freedoms.[4] Vinton Cerf, considered as a "father of the Internet" and co-inventor of the Internet Protocol, Tim Berners-Lee, creator of the web, and many others have spoken out in favor of network neutrality.

Opponents of net neutrality characterize its regulations as "a solution in search of a problem", arguing that broadband service providers have no plans to block content or degrade network performance.[5] In spite of this claim, certain Internet service providers have intentionally slowed peer-to-peer (P2P) communications.[6] Still, other companies have acted in contrast to these assertions of hands-off behavior and have begun to use deep packet inspection to discriminate against P2P, FTP and online games, instituting a cell-phone style billing system of overages, free-to-telecom "value added" services, and bundling.[7] Critics of net neutrality also argue that data discrimination of some kinds, particularly to guarantee quality of service, is not problematic, but is actually highly desirable. Bob Kahn has called the term net neutrality a "slogan" and states that he opposes establishing it.[8]"

The way I see it, if ISPs do anything the customers don't like, it would be to their detriment - as they would undoubtedly lose customers to competition. Over the years, online services have gotten better, and innovative technologies have been brought about, and ISP bandwidth has increased while ISP costs have come either down or stayed the same. The lack of restrictions on the internet has been a major reason for it's extreme success since it's current inception a mere 2 decades or so ago (of the modern way we use the internet).

Much of the Ron Paul Revolution, expansion of the ideas of austrian economics, liberty and other grassroots organizations (such as campaigns for Schiff, Rand Paul, Kokesh et al), etc are very much due to the internet and may very well not have happened without the civil and fiscal freedoms of the internet.

I feel the internet is seriously one of the last bastions of true freedom left in the world, and is one of if not the only effective launching points to plant the seeds for and expand the ideas for liberty and like-minded individuals. One of the last places to educate and inspire through reason and historical precedence on a massive scale, cheaply and effectively.

This initial breach and attack by agents and supporters of the government on this last bastion of freedom (that WILL result in further intervention) would lay a big blow to our efforts.

Many who are not part of a government agency - usually 'liberals' and even many 'conservatives' feel that 'Net Neutrality' is a good thing and try to grow support for it based on ignorance of what it will initially and undoubtedly eventually lead to (as most regulations do) in regards to both unintended consequences and further eventual intrusion into the internet and the protections, freedoms and other benefits it grants.

Luckily, the courts recently supported Comcast in fighting the FCC's authority to impose 'Net Neutrality'. However, this was only a temporary victory as it was only because the FCC has no authority to do so - legislation in congress can change this if they so please (obviously regardless of what public opinion thinks, as per the health care legislation).

Thoughts? And anyone have any good articles they know of to share on the fight against net neutrality? I would like to start sending them viral through my social networks, etc.

Stary Hickory
04-08-2010, 01:16 PM
leave Broadband alone. I am against Net Neutrality because it interferes. The internet works well because government is out of it to a large degree.

Sentient Void
04-08-2010, 01:24 PM
Well, I think we all agree about that here... but instead of just having that stance on it (which is fairly universal amongst us libertarians), I'm saying shouldn't we focus also on spreading more awareness about the issue and dig up more articles, arguments, etc?

There's a *lot* of ignorance surrounding 'net neutrality', and legislation for it is gaining in popularity because of this ignorance.

UtahApocalypse
04-08-2010, 01:34 PM
I am amazed how many people (including liberty minded) i see supporting Net Neutrality just because ISP such as Comcast, Verizon, and others want to limit what you can download (torrents)

hugolp
04-08-2010, 01:36 PM
I am amazed how many people (including liberty minded) i see supporting Net Neutrality just because ISP such as Comcast, Verizon, and others want to limit what you can download (torrents)

The law has an Orwellian title. In reality if you support net neutrality you should opose the law known as "Net Neutrality".

RyanRSheets
04-08-2010, 01:41 PM
leave Broadband alone. I am against Net Neutrality because it interferes. The internet works well because government is out of it to a large degree.

It's a consumer awareness matter. We should be demanding that the providers remain neutral, but we should be voting with our dollars rather than trying to force them to do it with legislation.

Sentient Void
04-08-2010, 01:47 PM
It absolutely has an Orwellian title... kinda like 'The Patriot Act'. The whole idea of doublethink naming-conventions has become very popular.

One example of why bandwidth throttling and bandwidth prioritization is important...

"Bret Swanson from the Wall Street Journal said that YouTube, MySpace and blogs are put at risk by net neutrality. Swanson says that YouTube streams as much data in three months as the world's radio, cable and broadcast television channels stream in one year, 75 petabytes. He argues that today’s networks are not remotely prepared to handle what he calls the "exaflood" (see exabytes). He argues that net neutrality would prevent broadband networks from being built, which would limit available bandwidth and thus endanger innovation.[56]"

There are other reasons too, but one is that many people don't understand that ISPs do NOT have unlimited bandwidth. it's limited based on the power of their server(s) infrastructure, among other things. Without this, the new high demands of streaming video and especially HD video would not be possible. Paying for more bandwidth and appropriate prioritization is important because it reduces the availability of other bandwidth. The higher rates for higher bandwidth demands are needed in order to invest money into innovation and additional power and server infrastructure.

Such regulation will not only raise costs (as always), but also limit availability and stifle innovation. It's that simple.

not to mention the eventual additional control such regulatory agencies will eventually seek to control the flow of information in regards to what is desirable vs not desirable in the eyes of the powers that be.

fisharmor
04-08-2010, 02:18 PM
It took government 60 years to get telephone service to 75% of American homes.
It took the free market 10 years to get much more complicated internet service to 75% of American homes.
So yeah, obviously government interference is what we need.

Sentient Void
04-08-2010, 02:55 PM
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/63173

http://kotaku.com/5512448/why-gamers-should-care-about-net-neutrality

These two are just a couple articles that were posted on VERY popular gamer and technology websites, which is usually visited by ages 35 and under.

The market-oriented comments/responses are generally drowned out by calls for more government intervention and 'net neutrality', amongst other comments of 'evil corporations' and 'evil capitalism', etc.

Just so everyone gets an idea of the sentiment of some of the moronic ignorance growing around this issue. On kotaku, I did find one very good response...


That is a total perversion of the word "freedom." The United States is the last great bastion of semi-freedom in the world, not the internet, which has relied on the threat of force up to this point to remain "neutral." Preserving the "freedom" of the internet will only destroy the true concept designated by the term, i.e. the right to think and act free from physical compulsion.

I've also been trying to find the email for John Stossel and make a case for why he should cover 'Net Neutrality' as a subject on his show 'Stossel', but any email ive found is undeliverable for email. Anyone know where to find a legitimate email?

Here is what net neutrality really means:

Companies that provide your internet connection must provide it to you in a certain way, at the barrel of a gun. In other words, they cannot refuse to sell you their product, under penalty of force.

The only valid argument here is that these companies have government sponsored monopolies. The answer to this, however, is not to "breed more controls," but to privatize what the government sold them. The government literally took control of a piece of land that it did not productively utilize, and then threatened violence against anyone who did utilize it without first paying a ransom. That is what happened, and it is disgusting.

What you should be fighting for is to reverse the damage that has already been done, not to further it by demanding entitlements "because there are already problems with the system." Fix the system, allow only voluntary, non-forceful interaction between individuals, and we will live in the best possible world. The alternative is a frenzied wilderness where arbitrarily defended rights are crushed by the biggest brute of the moment.

I've also tried to send an email to John Stossel to make a case for him doing a show on 'Net Neutrality' on 'Stossel', but I cant find a working email. Any help?

kahless
04-08-2010, 03:29 PM
It took the free market 10 years to get much more complicated internet service to 75% of American homes.
So yeah, obviously government interference is what we need.

Prior to the 1996 Telecommunications Act there was no last mile competition and I remember being happy it passed so I could get access to competing DSL providers that provided things like static IP, tiered speeds, usenet, etc. (something the heavily subsidized telco with my-our taxpayer dollars refused to do). I also remember T1 circuits were thousands of dollars a month before that act spawned T1 price wars. We would have never had the boom of small internet startups if it was not for this competition.

The bad thing about this is it forced the telcos to allow other providers to resell these services over their lines. People freak out over this but the reality is in many cases it was our taxpayer subsidies that built it. If you are not going to allow others to build out their own last mile and you have telcos getting government subsidies this is what you get. So I shed no tears for the telco monopolies.

The problem is those that are against "Net Neutrality" all too often do not want to allow last mile competition even for those that wish to build their own network.
You can't have it both ways. What we really need is government completely out of it so others could build out that last mile and network to compete. The major telcos should not have this monopoly especially since in many cases it was our taxpayer subsidies that built it. If the various levels of government will not allow competition at that level than there really is no choice but to allow last mile competition over existing telco service otherwise you will end up with whatever they add to "Net Neutrality".

Matt Collins
08-02-2010, 09:32 PM
YouTube - The Open Internet and Lessons from the Ma Bell Era (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS_udd5K91o&feature=player_embedded)

Deborah K
08-02-2010, 09:53 PM
OP, what is your plan to fight this?

kahless
08-21-2010, 01:13 PM
YouTube - The Open Internet and Lessons from the Ma Bell Era (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS_udd5K91o&feature=player_embedded)

That video promotes the 1996 Telecom act as a good thing which was the point I made earlier in this thread.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2634791&postcount=10

I remember 10 years ago that was the main reasons I and others supported the original proposed Net Neutrality before all the recent perversions.
It basically protected my private property rights to allow easement to competition. Thus essentially keeping the same provisions of the 1996 Telecom Act which brought about the competition that created the dot com boom.

Sentient Void
08-21-2010, 01:19 PM
OP, what is your plan to fight this?

As always, mass-education and electoral politics. Getting involved with liberty candidates on the state and federal level to be against the proposed form of alleged 'Net Neutrality', and why the free market and 'marketization' of telecoms is the correct response, and not further govt intervention. And the same with media personalities such as Stossel, Napolitano and Ron Paul to get the word out against Net neutrality.

Also, many of the most passionate proponents of Net neutrality are on the internet, and we can debunk their arguments in front of an/their audience on their blogs, facebook, and in the media. Educate, educate educate. It's the only way for a sustainable position of liberty to the masses.

Stary Hickory
08-21-2010, 01:45 PM
F Net Neutrality we are onto your little naming games. Just another word for "fair" which is highly subjective. I hate the way these statist assclowns name their bills.

FCC takeover of the internet has a less appealing sound to it.