[VIDEO] ~ "WikiLeaks releases secret video of journalists, civilians killed by U.S."

[Reason]

UPDATE: Two U.S. Soldiers From Wikileaks ‘Collateral Murder’ Video Apologize In Open Letter (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=240633)



~~

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0

www.youtube.com/watch?v=is9sxRfU-ik

April 03, 2010 — Wikileaks has obtained and decrypted this previously unreleased video footage from a US Apache helicopter in 2007. It shows Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Eldeen, driver Saeed Chmagh, and several others as the Apache shoots and kills them in a public square in Eastern Baghdad. They are apparently assumed to be insurgents. After the initial shooting, an unarmed group of adults and children in a minivan arrives on the scene and attempts to transport the wounded. They are fired upon as well. The official statement on this incident initially listed all adults as insurgents and claimed the US military did not know how the deaths ocurred. Wikileaks released this video with transcripts and a package of supporting documents on April 5th 2010 on

[wizardwatson]

An example of the typical American mindset. My convo a few minutes ago:




12:08 PM me: http://collateralmurder.com/ Hope you got a strong stomach.
Just released today by WikiLeaks. Doubt it will hit mainstream news as it doesn't further the message of more war and killing.
6 minutes

12:15 PM [Someone I know]: Kill or be killed.

12:16 PM me: Those were journalists, along with their security detail.

12:17 PM [Someone I know]: Looked like that guy had and RPG to me.

me: I don't know all the details. We probably never will.

[Someone I know]: That is hard man. I wouldn't want to be in that postion to have to make the call to engage. When you really don't know.
I am kind of hardend to all that. I really don't care at this point.

12:20 PM [Someone I know]: War is never good. How do you train soilders to Kill kill kill then have them take it back some and worry about only killing the bad guys when they are techniclly in the middle of a war.

Ugh. I was to disgusted to continue the chat with [someone I know]. But it goes to show you what I'm assuming will be a typical response should you choose to share the video.

People don't want to face reality. "I'm hardened to all that." really means I don't want to know about it. And "How do you train soldiers to ... worry about only killing the bad guys."? WTF? That is their PRIMARY job! Just fucking amazing.

I just don't know what to say really. The lack of education and basic morality of most people seems to be based on whatever Jon Stewart says.

[CasualApathy]

It's like human life has no value at all, especially when you can sit in some control room a million miles away and just press a button.

[RM918]

An example of the typical American mindset. My convo a few minutes ago:



Ugh. I was to disgusted to continue the chat with [someone I know]. But it goes to show you what I'm assuming will be a typical response should you choose to share the video.

People don't want to face reality. "I'm hardened to all that." really means I don't want to know about it. And "How do you train soldiers to ... worry about only killing the bad guys."? WTF? That is their PRIMARY job! Just fucking amazing.

I just don't know what to say really. The lack of education and basic morality of most people seems to be based on whatever Jon Stewart says.

I bet his attitude would be changed right-quick if they pulled him in on Selective Service.

[puppetmaster]

These men are wearing our uniforms.....they are representing us. This must end now.

[lester1/2jr]

thats not it

[Vessol]

Fuck I think I'm going to be sick to my stomach.

[wizardwatson]

I bet his attitude would be changed right-quick if they pulled him in on Selective Service.

I'm just disgusted. I emailed a few people as well, and I now hope they don't respond just so I don't have to be disgusted with them as well. People's worldview is extremely fucked and I'm just dumbfounded...

I guess I should expect it, but still.

I mean, people seem to forget that we aren't supposed to be there in the first place. "War is hell" doesn't fucking cut it. Saddam is dead, no WMD, no real terrorists outside of warring factions battling for political power, endless footage of aerial bombardment, and it's worse in Afghanistan. War my be hell, but in every war we're fighting now, it's also illegal, immoral, unnecessary, and unconstitutional. The fact that its condoned with a "not my problem" attitude makes me want to vomit.

I'm sick to my stomach and I can't concentrate at work.

[RM918]

Huffington Post has jumped on the story. But go to their main page, their headline in huge bold with big pictures? Tiger. Fucking. Woods.

I really hate what this country has become and the people that live in it with growing severity every day.

[Vessol]

What the fuck? I posted this on two forums I regularly post on.

All the replies so far account to

"Who cares? This is what happens in war."

[muh_roads]

This is an example of why we have the most effective military in the world. They are trained to do two things and do them extremely well...follow orders and kill. This is also an example of why we fail so miserably at policing the world. That is not what a military is trained to do.

Sorry to bring out 9/11 but that is what boggles my mind...Our military is so streamlined and efficient on killing. How could 19 turban heads in a cave take down our multi-trillion dollar empire on 4 separate occasions in the same day? They took down the central nervous system of our military might? The Pentagon? A no-fly-zone area? lol Retired Russian Generals laugh at us. They say they would've performed a Red Dawn scenario on us a hell of a long time ago during the cold war if they thought it was possible. No one believes the BS except the sheep within the US.

okay sorry to go off on a tangent. My mind stirs in all sorts of directions when I see videos like this. Sick shit.

[Reason]

What the fuck? I posted this on two forums I regularly post on.

All the replies so far account to

"Who cares? This is what happens in war."

Same.

I posted it here

http://www.politicalforum.com/current-events/123188-video-wikileaks-releases-secret-video-journalists-civilians-killed-u-s.html

and most of the replies are

"war zones are dangerous for journalists, if they don't like that, then they should pick a different job"

[Vessol]

Same.

I posted it here

http://www.politicalforum.com/current-events/123188-video-wikileaks-releases-secret-video-journalists-civilians-killed-u-s.html

and most of the replies are

"war zones are dangerous for journalists, if they don't like that, then they should pick a different job"

Wow, yours is a lot worse. People saying its "sickening they are using children as shields". Wtf, they were unarmed civilians trying to helped a bunch of wounded shot up journalists and their security detail.

Then justifying the censorship of the media. Wow.

[wizardwatson]

What the fuck? I posted this on two forums I regularly post on.

All the replies so far account to

"Who cares? This is what happens in war."

See my post #2. I was also emotional when I posted/emailed and got similar responses. But as I said, this is no doubt going to be the typical American response. We, on this forum, are just coming from a more accurate worldview.


A self-respecting nation is ready for anything, including war, except for a renunciation of its option to make war. -Simone Weil


Difficult as it is really to listen to someone in affliction, it is just as difficult for him to know that compassion is listening to him. -Simone Weil


Human beings are so made that the ones who do the crushing feel nothing; it is the person crushed who feels what is happening. Unless one has placed oneself on the side of the oppressed, to feel with them, one cannot understand. -Simone Weil


I suffer more from the humiliations inflicted by my country than from those inflicted on her. -Simone Weil


Petroleum is a more likely cause of international conflict than wheat. -Simone Weil

[A Son of Liberty]

I'm almost speechless after watching that... I almost wish I hadn't...

It is unadulterated evil to countenance this stuff and then turn around and defend it. THERE IS NO DEFENSE OF THIS. NONE. And by "this" I mean, this war - the airmen seemed to be pretty confident that the people on the ground were armed. Now, I myself would never have been in that position to begin with, but from their perspective, aside from the shockingly cold comments, and their eagerness to "engage", they're in a war zone. That is, in fact, what happens in a war... and that's PRECISELY WHY WE SHOULD NOT BE THERE AT ALL.

The lying bastards in the Bush administration who brought us this sin should be tried for the murder of these people, and the lying bastards in the Obama administration who are keeping us there should be tried for all subsequent murders.

THIS MUST END.

And to hear these imperial enablers ridicule and scorn Ron Paul for his comments about blowback... and their defense of this atrocity... unspeakable. Just unspeakable...

[UtahApocalypse]

It's like human life has no value at all, especially when you can sit in some control room a million miles away and just press a button.

This was an Apache chopper attack not a drone. they were right there.

The most disgusting to me is the taking out of the van that was removing WOUNDED persons (or terrorists, or soldiers) does not matter who they are that is an absolute violation of the Geneva Convention and all involved should be tried.

[Omphfullas Zamboni]

Longer video and report here (http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2010/04/05/well-its-their-fault-for-bringing-their-kids-into-a-battle/).

Longer video, (39 minutes):

[Free Moral Agent]

At for 4:09 of the 17min YouTube video, where the guy in the heli says "He's got an RPG" why is it that cameraman sneaking around the corner in that manner? Then at 4:22 we hear "We had a guy shooting" Who is he referring to?

And what is the context of this area and group here. Was this initiated because all weapons are off limits or was it because of a guy who was shooting earlier? And why were the journalists walking among this group?

I'm totally against what happened here, but I want to make sure I know everything about this incident before I post this up.

[fatjohn]

At for 4:09 of the 17min YouTube video, where the guy in the heli says "He's got an RPG" why is it that the cameraman is sneaking around the corner in that manner? Then at 4:22 we hear "We had a guy shooting" Who is he referring to?

And what is the context of this area and group here? Why were all weapons off limits here and why were the journalists walking among this group?

My understanding was that there were two journalists and that the rest of the crowd were people wanting to see what was the fuzz about. But appearantly groups aren't aloud to form spontaneously in iraq, they will be shot. Survivors will be shot again. And the dead will be run over by tanks.

[wizardwatson]

my understanding was that there were two journalists and that the rest of the crowd were people wanting to see what was the fuzz about. But appearantly groups aren't aloud to form spontaneously in iraq, they will be shot. Survivors will be shot again. And the dead will be run over by tanks.

+666

[Bruno]

Is Reuters reporting on this story of their own murdered employees? No. This should be their stop story, but instead it is Tiger Woods. What a tribute to the family of those gunned down. :mad:


At for 4:09 of the 17min YouTube video, where the guy in the heli says "He's got an RPG" why is it that cameraman sneaking around the corner in that manner? Then at 4:22 we hear "We had a guy shooting" Who is he referring to?

And what is the context of this area and group here? Why were all weapons off limits here and why were the journalists walking among this group?

I'm totally against what happened here, but I want to make sure I know everything about this incident before I post this up.

Was he sneaking or kneeling to get a good, stable camera shot?

[puppetmaster]

This was an Apache chopper attack not a drone. they were right there.

The most disgusting to me is the taking out of the van that was removing WOUNDED persons (or terrorists, or soldiers) does not matter who they are that is an absolute violation of the Geneva Convention and all involved should be tried.

this

[Vessol]

Is Reuters reporting on this story of their own murdered employees? No. This should be their stop story, but instead it is Tiger Woods. What a tribute to the family of those gunned down. :mad:

I can't even find it mentioned anywhere on their front page.

I can't find any mention of this on any front pages of any mainstream sites.

What the FUCK!?

It's all god damn fucking Tiger Woods. God I fucking hate Tiger Woods.

[Free Moral Agent]

Yeah it looked like he was kneeling to get a stable shot, but I could also see how the guys in the heli could misconstrue that action. At 4:19 he has a clear shot and someone says "Getting ready to fire" don't know if he's referring to the cameraman or the heli however...

The cameraman could of easily taken a photograph of the heli out in the open instead of sneaking around the corner. Of course that still doesn't justify what happened.

[A Son of Liberty]

Yeah it looked like he was kneeling to get a stable shot, but I could also see how the guys in the heli could misconstrue that action. At 4:19 he has a clear shot and someone says "Getting ready to fire" don't know if he's referring to the cameraman or the heli however...

The cameraman could of easily taken a photography of the heli out in the open instead of sneaking around the corner. Of course that still doesn't justify what happened. Now that the cloud of anger is washing over me, I'm just trying to see it from both perspectives.

I think that the bigger picture is our presence there in the first place, and the lying, filthy excrement that invented this unholy disaster, turning young men and women into cold and calculating killers one side and bloody clumps of meat on the other.

[Vessol]

What the fuck is wrong with these guys? They're chomping at the bit they are so eager to shoot a bunch of unarmed men.

[Depressed Liberator]

Here is more of the video:



This is disgusting.

[newbitech]

eesshh,, just watched the 19 minute version where you can see the kids in the truck. The helicopter was begging to engage the people picking up the wounded. He later goes on to say that it is their fault for bringing children to the battle. They also commented on a wounded man crawling around, hoping that he would touch a weapon so they could finish him off.

"Come on let us shoot!"

Completely dishonorable. This is like shooting fish in a barrel. Sick. Merciless. Does absolutely nothing to keep me "safe". No remorse. It's like these guys are playing a video game.

[Elle]

Resources from Wikileaks

http://collateralmurder.com/en/resources.html


Reuters articles from July 2007 when this happened are there too.

[muh_roads]

BBC picked it up finally.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8603938.stm

[Bruno]

BBC picked it up finally.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8603938.stm

Sent that to Drudge, too

[pcosmar]

Another picked it up.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/05/wikileaks-us-army-iraq-attack

[RM918]

HuffPo FINALLY puts it up on the big bold after a few hours of subbing it to Tiger Woods.

Not a peep from CNN, apparently.

[Bruno]

HuffPo FINALLY puts it up on the big bold after a few hours of subbing it to Tiger Woods.

With enlarged pics and captions, at least!

Nearly 2,000 comments so far

[muh_roads]

I wonder if this will go far enough to turn into an investigation? PrickWater?

Or will the Jewish controlled media play it down so we can continue to fight Israel's wars?

At any case I discovered a new site...never knew what WikiLeaks was all about until now...

“ WikiLeaks has probably produced more scoops in its short life than the Washington Post has in the past 30 years ”
— The National, November 19, 2009

This is why TV media is an aging dinosaur. Nobody does any investigative journalism anymore. All we hear about is Tiger Woods cheating on his wife or Lindsey Lohan's labia slipped out for the camera.

[Sandman33]

I can't even find it mentioned anywhere on their front page.

I can't find any mention of this on any front pages of any mainstream sites.

What the FUCK!?

It's all god damn fucking Tiger Woods. God I fucking hate Tiger Woods.

Don't hate Tiger...hate the damn controlled media.

They could find more dead nuts proof that 911 was a lie and the media would bury it just like this.

[wizardwatson]

eesshh,, just watched the 19 minute version where you can see the kids in the truck. The helicopter was begging to engage the people picking up the wounded. He later goes on to say that it is their fault for bringing children to the battle. They also commented on a wounded man crawling around, hoping that he would touch a weapon so they could finish him off.

"Come on let us shoot!"

Completely dishonorable. This is like shooting fish in a barrel. Sick. Merciless. Does absolutely nothing to keep me "safe". No remorse. It's like these guys are playing a video game.


As soon as men know that they can kill without fear of punishment or blame, they kill; or at least they encourage killers with approving smiles. -Simone Weil

Sad fact.

[Anti Federalist]

Well, I'm on a slow connection, and cannot watch the video.

I'm going to guess at what it shows, based on the reactions, comments, and how far the government went to try and keep it under wraps.

All I can say is, I'm not surprised.

All you "pacifists" better burn these images into your brain and toughen the fuck up.

The system will mow you down by the thousands, by the millions, and won't think twice about it.

They will butcher you and yours, and do it with a smile on their faces.

That's what we're up against, in the final analysis.

[devil21]

Well, I'm on a slow connection, and cannot watch the video.

I'm going to guess at what it shows, based on the reactions, comments, and how far the government went to try and keep it under wraps.

All I can say is, I'm not surprised.

All you "pacifists" better burn these images into your brain and toughen the fuck up.

The system will mow you down by the thousands, by the millions, and won't think twice about it.

They will butcher you and yours, and do it with a smile on their faces.

That's what we're up against, in the final analysis.

I had a thought earlier that maybe this video was intentionally leaked for that exact reason. A reminder to us "proles" what our military is capable of doing when tasked and allowed, maybe in hopes of intimidating those making calls for revolution. You want revolution? Here's what the gov't brings to the party. Choppers with 30mm cannons and pilots that don't give a shit who or what they shoot. Pilots that beg for approval to shoot unarmed people in the street even...

[Anti Federalist]

I had a thought earlier that maybe this video was intentionally leaked for that exact reason. A reminder to us "proles" what our military is capable of doing when tasked and allowed, maybe in hopes of intimidating those making calls for revolution. You want revolution? Here's what the gov't brings to the party. Choppers with 30mm cannons and pilots that don't give a shit who or what they shoot. Pilots that beg for approval to shoot unarmed people in the street even...

I had always thought the same thing about the massive military displays in totalitarian nations.

Less to scare off foreign enemies and more to shock and awe the native population.

[pcosmar]

I had a thought earlier that maybe this video was intentionally leaked for that exact reason. A reminder to us "proles" what our military is capable of doing when tasked and allowed, maybe in hopes of intimidating those making calls for revolution. You want revolution? Here's what the gov't brings to the party. Choppers with 30mm cannons and pilots that don't give a shit who or what they shoot.

My First reaction was revulsion. Then anger and disgust. And sadness.

Now it needs to be analyzed tactically. Rationally. Logically.
:mad:

[GunnyFreedom]

Well, I'm on a slow connection, and cannot watch the video.

I'm going to guess at what it shows, based on the reactions, comments, and how far the government went to try and keep it under wraps.

All I can say is, I'm not surprised.

All you "pacifists" better burn these images into your brain and toughen the fuck up.

The system will mow you down by the thousands, by the millions, and won't think twice about it.

They will butcher you and yours, and do it with a smile on their faces.

That's what we're up against, in the final analysis.

This video should also remind those who are eager to take up arms exactly what that would mean. This is not the romantic Red Dawn, nor one shot shoot & scoot from Grampa's hunting rifle. This is the LAST thing any rational person should want, regardless of our objectives. While there is still hope in a peaceful resolution, I will give all that I am in pursuit of it.

[phill4paul]

My First reaction was revulsion. Then anger and disgust. And sadness.

Now it needs to be analyzed tactically. Rationally. Logically.
:mad:

Don't put your ass in the cross-hairs of an Apache thinking they are hovering over head like an angel that will protect you. That's kinda what I took from it.;)

It may well be that this video was leaked with the very purpose intended in the above posts.

However, it is getting a much more different reaction to those that I have linked it to. Maybe a bit of propaganda. But not the most rational judging from the feedback.

[phill4paul]

While there is still hope in a peaceful resolution, I will give all that I am in pursuit of it.

Quite, but when there is no peaceful resolution, I shall give what little I have to offer.

[furface]

Good to know people are at work protecting my freedom. Let's spend another 10 trillion dollars on this shit. Yee haw!

[speciallyblend]

this is sickening:( so when is the us government gonna shut down wikileaks?? we cannot have the truth being told to the public!!(sarcasm)

[jake]

the men on the radios and firing the 30mm cannons are disgusting human beings, I would never, ever serve in the military because of the dishonorable nature of modern conflict and this type of wanton violence. there is one adjective I would use above all in the description of this murderous act: cowardice.

[QueenB4Liberty]

Quite, but when there is no peaceful resolution, I shall give what little I have to offer.

I don't think there's any hope for a peaceful revolution. Obama has made that clear, and I expect things will only get worse.

[phill4paul]

I don't think there's any hope for a peaceful revolution. Obama has made that clear, and I expect things will only get worse.

Obama is not the end all. Pay particular attention to your states politics. Volunteer and donate in both time and money.

If it comes to arms then I will at least know that I tried every measure for peaceful resolution. I will not come to arms until I know I have tried every peaceful measure or force of arms are brought against me.

"Hope for America." It is a campaign slogan I still believe in.

[QueenB4Liberty]

Yeah, I'm against violence, but I think we've reached a threshold. The only people we're going to reach now are the people who come to us out of desperation because things will be that bad. It would be nice if voting made a significant difference. I still donate to liberty candidates, but I'm not going to get my hopes up when they don't win.

[jclay2]

I just watched the video and was deeply disturbed by it. I was especially distraught over the soldier who was just hoping the wounded camera man would grab a weapon after he was shot and lying on the ground. Any excuse to grab the machine gun. :(

[Anti Federalist]

Obama is not the end all. Pay particular attention to your states politics. Volunteer and donate in both time and money.

If it comes to arms then I will at least know that I tried every measure for peaceful resolution. I will not come to arms until I know I have tried every peaceful measure or force of arms are brought against me.

"Hope for America." It is a campaign slogan I still believe in.

That, although my optimism is tempered by the reality I see everyday.

[M House]

It's a really strange video. The gunner had a bit of a bloodlust going on. He wasn't saying anything remotely logical. Say you get hit and crippled by a 30mm round. The first thing you're gonna do is try to grab a weapon? He can't even walk. O well could've been worse they could've dropped an incendiary or 80 series bomb for air support. That would've killed the neighbors. Apaches also have Hellfire IIs and 2.75 inch FFARs for equipment.

[Reason]

Updating OP with full length video tape that I meant to post in the first place,

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0

[phill4paul]

Yeah, I'm against violence, but I think we've reached a threshold.

Oh don't get me wrong. I have never been "against violence." I am quite the proponent of it when the situation dictates.


The only people we're going to reach now are the people who come to us out of desperation because things will be that bad.

Believe it or not there are more and more everyday coming to that realization.


It would be nice if voting made a significant difference. I still donate to liberty candidates, but I'm not going to get my hopes up when they don't win.

An Axiom I have developed is to give from the heart. Expect nothing in return. I don't lend money to friends expecting repayment. I give it if they need the help and if they can repay then fine. If not then no problem. I never give more than I expect to lose. I apply this to political candidates.

[pcosmar]

Sobering

Once you get past all the other emotions.

[M House]

Okay seriously you don't have a prayer against our military or PMCs or NATO. This is the US you do not have access to useful weapons. All I can say if there is a rebellion you will be trying extremely hard to locate a .50 caliber sniper rifle and probably end up being a IED architect mostly. Better hope you're a good shot. And yes it would probably end up alot like Iraq or Afghanistan.

[phill4paul]

That, although my optimism is tempered by the reality I see everyday.

Amen that.

I've been told to "hope" in one hand and shit in the other and see which fills up first.:D

[phill4paul]

Okay seriously you don't have a prayer against our military or PMCs or NATO. This is the US you do not have access to useful weapons. All I can say if there is a rebellion you will be trying extremely hard to locate a .50 caliber sniper rifle and probably end up being a IED architect mostly. Better hope you're a good shot. And yes it would probably end up alot like Iraq or Afghanistan.

And your point?

[pcosmar]

Okay seriously you don't have a prayer against our military or PMCs or NATO. This is the US you do not have access to useful weapons. All I can say if there is a rebellion you will be trying extremely hard to locate a .50 caliber sniper rifle and probably end up being a IED architect mostly. Better hope you're a good shot. And yes it would probably end up alot like Iraq or Afghanistan.

You had better hope we can.
I am afraid there other chance.

You are looking at the future. The future of authoritarian rule.
Welcome to the future.
It is sobering.

[Reason]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/world/middleeast/06baghdad.html?src=me

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-20001802-38.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/04/05/iraq.photographers.killed/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/05/AR2010040503898.html

[phill4paul]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/06/world/middleeast/06baghdad.html?src=me

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-20001802-38.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/04/05/iraq.photographers.killed/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/05/AR2010040503898.html

funny how three of the four you posted have already nixed the link.;)

[Reason]

funny how three of the four you posted have already nixed the link.;)

Which link?

all 4 work for me...

[Anti Federalist]

funny how three of the four you posted have already nixed the link.;)

Yankee Golf Bravo Sierra Mike

Yup, dead links.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot...:mad::confused:

ETA - tried again...worked.

[Reason]

wtf???

all 4 links work for me right now!

the internet must hate you guys?

[phill4paul]

Which link?

all 4 work for me...

funny i linked them to my facebook and only cnet comes up. here they work fine.

[Reason]

funny i linked them to my facebook and only cnet comes up. here they work fine.

You have to make sure you right click and "copy link location" when copying links from a forum because forums tend to abbreviate links with a ... in the middle if they are long.

[phill4paul]

You have to make sure you right click and "copy link location" when copying links from a forum because forums tend to abbreviate links with a ... in the middle if they are long.

gotcha...thanks.

[M House]

Fine, I don't know might be kinda fun except for the your likely to die part actually for some strange people it would make it more exciting. Okay so you got your .50 caliber sniper rifle set up nicely. You vs. the Apache. Um well it might be somewhat vulnerable if you can place a round in the sensors in the nose, swashplate and link rods on the rotor, and also the tail rotor assembly however it's arranged. Just guessing though supposedly the blades themselves are rather durable. Also the external stores would be vulnerable but those could simply be jettisoned. The gun though a small target is completed unarmored. Cockpit has heavy armored glass as well. Also it can go over 200 mph though I doubt it can do this fully loaded. Still it's fast. I suppose the best you could really hope for would simply to prevent it from firing on you. If you take out the sensor assembly the gunner is useless. It has three components though so I doubt one round would disable it. There's a TV on top, FLIR on the right side, and laser designator on the left. The sensor turret nose is slaved to the IHADSS which tracks the gunner's head moment. Jeez um well you could take a shot or two. It's probably harder than seems to aim accurately with the thing. The gun has limited up and down movement as you heard in the video the gunner was bitching about the azimuth of the gun. Gunner sits in front too if you wanna piss him/her off or distract him/her. I assume if the .50 caliber round hit the cockpit it probably won't penetrate but it would be very noticeable. So odds for you could be worse.

[Jeros]

I don't cry for strangers. For some reason this video changed that.

[Rael]

Is there a shorter excerpt of this video with the relevant parts? I would like to send a link to it, I think people will pay attention to something shorter, nobody wants to watch a 30 minute vid.

[phill4paul]

Fine, I don't know might be kinda fun except for the your likely to die part actually for some strange people it would make it more exciting. Okay so you got your .50 caliber sniper rifle set up nicely. You vs. the Apache. Um well it might be somewhat vulnerable if you can place a round in the sensors in the nose, swashplate and link rods on the rotor, and also the tail rotor assembly however it's arranged. Just guessing though supposedly the blades themselves are rather durable. Also the external stores would be vulnerable but those could simply be jettisoned. The gun though a small target is completed unarmored. Cockpit has heavy armored glass as well. Also it can go over 200 mph though I doubt it can do this fully loaded. Still it's fast. I suppose the best you could really hope for would simply to prevent it from firing on you. If you take out the sensor assembly the gunner is useless. It has three components though so I doubt one round would disable it. There's a TV on top, FLIR on the right side, and laser designator on the left. The sensor turret nose is slaved to the IHADSS which tracks the gunner's head moment. Jeez um well you could take a shot or two. It's probably harder than seems to aim accurately with the thing. The gun has limited up and down movement as you heard in the video the gunner was bitching about the azimuth of the gun. Gunner sits in front too if you wanna piss him/her off or distract him/her. I assume if the .50 caliber round hit the cockpit it probably won't penetrate but it would be very noticeable. So odds for you could be worse.

And your point is?

[Reason]

Is there a shorter excerpt of this video with the relevant parts? I would like to send a link to it, I think people will pay attention to something shorter, nobody wants to watch a 30 minute vid.

YouTube - WikiLeaks releases secret video of journalists, civilians killed in Baghdad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH9xSHcFreY)

[phill4paul]

Is there a shorter excerpt of this video with the relevant parts? I would like to send a link to it, I think people will pay attention to something shorter, nobody wants to watch a 30 minute vid.

I don't see how it could be made shorter. Truth be told if someone can't sit through 30 mins of their lives to come to a realization then there ain't much hope in converting them.

Maybe tell 'em it's a new Matt Damon trailer.

[Reason]

Remember kids!

Those bullets ripping through the bodies of the children in that van were bought and paid for with your tax dollars that you worked so hard to earn and quickly give to the govt!

oorah! http://www.politicalforum.com/images/smilies/icon_puke.gif

[Rael]

Okay seriously you don't have a prayer against our military or PMCs or NATO. This is the US you do not have access to useful weapons. All I can say if there is a rebellion you will be trying extremely hard to locate a .50 caliber sniper rifle and probably end up being a IED architect mostly. Better hope you're a good shot. And yes it would probably end up alot like Iraq or Afghanistan.

I disagree. Don't underestimate the ingenuity of people, and what guerrilla warriors are capable of.

Besides, I think enough troops will defect to provide us with plenty of "useful weapons".

YouTube - Militia killing the "BORG" myth with numbers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae74oMMQ4ak)

[Anti Federalist]

This video should also remind those who are eager to take up arms exactly what that would mean. This is not the romantic Red Dawn, nor one shot shoot & scoot from Grampa's hunting rifle. This is the LAST thing any rational person should want, regardless of our objectives. While there is still hope in a peaceful resolution, I will give all that I am in pursuit of it.

Whoa, sorry Glen didn't see this reply.

Yes, you're right, that was my point, that if that road is all that's left, then you'd better be steeled for more holy hell than anybody's ever seen before.

[phill4paul]

Remember kids!

Those bullets ripping through the bodies of the children in that van were bought and paid for with your tax dollars that you worked so hard to earn and quickly give to the govt!

oorah! http://www.politicalforum.com/images/smilies/icon_puke.gif

None amongst us can wash their hands clean. Not only were the bullets payed for but the pilots were trained up. The gunship itself built.

Believe me I am far from being a pacifist. This I don't believe in.

I fuckin' saw a car today (before I saw this video) and on that car were two bumper stickers.

one said:

http://images.cafepress.com/product/132858223v3_150x150_Front.JPG

The other:

http://rlv.zcache.com/a_new_majority_obama_political_bumper_sticker-p128839779554006914tmn6_525.jpg


LOL. The idiots we deal with on a daily basis.

[Reason]

YouTube - AP Source Confirms Video of Baghdad Firefight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKL1nD6D_xI)

[phill4paul]

YouTube - AP Source Confirms Video of Baghdad Firefight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKL1nD6D_xI)

GodDammit it wasn't a fuckin' firefight. To have a firefight you have to recieve enemy rounds. Spin doctors abound.

[speciallyblend]

"Well your flag decal won't get ya into heaven anymore. It's already over crowded from your dirty little wars. Now Jesus don't like killin' no matter what the reason is for. And your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore." John Prine
[VIDEO] ~ "WikiLeaks releases secret video of journalists, civilians killed by ...U.S."



See MoreYouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

just left this on my facebook and left in comments section in coffee party threads! and the northern tea party of colorado comment section and i also posted it on their page!

[Anti Federalist]

Fine, I don't know might be kinda fun except for the your likely to die part actually for some strange people it would make it more exciting. Okay so you got your .50 caliber sniper rifle set up nicely. You vs. the Apache. Um well it might be somewhat vulnerable if you can place a round in the sensors in the nose, swashplate and link rods on the rotor, and also the tail rotor assembly however it's arranged. Just guessing though supposedly the blades themselves are rather durable. Also the external stores would be vulnerable but those could simply be jettisoned. The gun though a small target is completed unarmored. Cockpit has heavy armored glass as well. Also it can go over 200 mph though I doubt it can do this fully loaded. Still it's fast. I suppose the best you could really hope for would simply to prevent it from firing on you. If you take out the sensor assembly the gunner is useless. It has three components though so I doubt one round would disable it. There's a TV on top, FLIR on the right side, and laser designator on the left. The sensor turret nose is slaved to the IHADSS which tracks the gunner's head moment. Jeez um well you could take a shot or two. It's probably harder than seems to aim accurately with the thing. The gun has limited up and down movement as you heard in the video the gunner was bitching about the azimuth of the gun. Gunner sits in front too if you wanna piss him/her off or distract him/her. I assume if the .50 caliber round hit the cockpit it probably won't penetrate but it would be very noticeable. So odds for you could be worse.

It's not nearly as glamorous.

You stop that thing before the pilot even thinks of taking off.

[Jeros]

Well, I'm on a slow connection, and cannot watch the video.

I'm going to guess at what it shows, based on the reactions, comments, and how far the government went to try and keep it under wraps.

All I can say is, I'm not surprised.

All you "pacifists" better burn these images into your brain and toughen the fuck up.

The system will mow you down by the thousands, by the millions, and won't think twice about it.

They will butcher you and yours, and do it with a smile on their faces.

That's what we're up against, in the final analysis.

Guns will not help you in such a scenario. You might be incrementally more difficult to kill, which is the best case. Openly advocating rebellion will only make you a target. Armed rebellion will not bring the monster down in any case. The monster must be allowed to fall under its own weight. To take it further, armed rebellion will extend the life of the monster. It will give the last remnants of wary loyalists a cause to coalesce around; it will provide a target for the monster to fall toward.

I utilize firearms not to defend against government, but to defend against petty criminals once the systems turns chaotic. I have no chance against a technologically advanced supremely organized military force. Government will not be a major direct physical threat outside the possibility of conscription. Gang activity and the survival instinct of the unprepared will be the primary threat to ones life.

[devil21]

It's not nearly as glamorous.

You stop that thing before the pilot even thinks of taking off.

Ha that's what I was thinking too. Head-to-head you'll probably lose badly to one of those. The real solution is to just make sure it doesn't get off the ground and that's where saboteurs or supply line disruptions make their impact. Apaches don't fly without gas and they don't shoot without bullets...

[Endgame]

Typical fascist empire behavior. This place won't last much longer anyway.

[Anti Federalist]

Ha that's what I was thinking too. Head-to-head you'll probably lose badly to one of those. The real solution is to just make sure it doesn't get off the ground and that's where saboteurs or supply line disruptions make their impact. Apaches don't fly without gas and they don't shoot without bullets...

;)

[phill4paul]

Several have posted regarding my John Prine Quote so I thought it best that it be said in it's entirety.

YouTube - John Prine -Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgRVNjsuycQ)

[phill4paul]

Guns will not help you in such a scenario. You might be incrementally more difficult to kill, which is the best case. Openly advocating rebellion will only make you a target. Armed rebellion will not bring the monster down in any case. The monster must be allowed to fall under its own weight. To take it further, armed rebellion will extend the life of the monster. It will give the last remnants of wary loyalists a cause to coalesce around; it will provide a target for the monster to fall toward.

I utilize firearms not to defend against government, but to defend against petty criminals once the systems turns chaotic. I have no chance against a technologically advanced supremely organized military force. Government will not be a major direct physical threat outside the possibility of conscription. Gang activity and the survival instinct of the unprepared will be the primary threat to ones life.


So you'll use your gun against those left destitute by the government but not against the government that caused it. Son you speak in strange manners foreign to those that have read the teachings of the founders. Your an I'm in it for me person. At least that's what I get from your post. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Jeros]

So you'll use your gun against those left destitute by the government but not against the government that caused it. Son you speak in strange manners foreign to those that have read the teachings of the founders. Your an I'm in it for me person. At least that's what I get from your post. Correct me if I am wrong.

You are a little bit off. In such a scenario I would protect myself along with friends and family.

I would not fire upon those left destitute by the government unless I was defending myself against their aggression, so the fact that they are destitute is irrelevant in such a case. As Gerald Celente says, "when people lose everything, they lose it." I would act not on a sense of perfect justice, but on immediate practicality.

I would not participate in an armed uprising against the state because it would be fruitless and even counterproductive. The state will fall on its own eventually. Maybe even faster if an armed uprising doesn't occur.

You may be acting on an ideal sense of justice that requires all sinners to pay for all sins. Many bad guys will not pay for their crimes. Many innocents will die needlessly. I will not put my life on the line attempting to achieve the impossible.

The founders may be less perfect than you have learned also. Didn't George Washington have a bunch of men executed for treason only because they refused to serve without pay?

[phill4paul]

You are a little bit off. In such a scenario I would protect myself along with friends and family.

I would not fire upon those left destitute by the government unless I was defending myself against their aggression, so the fact that they are destitute is irrelevant in such a case. As Gerald Celente says, "when people lose everything, they lose it." I would act not on a sense of perfect justice, but on immediate practicality.

I would not participate in an armed uprising against the state because it would be fruitless and even counterproductive. The state will fall on its own eventually. Maybe even faster if an armed uprising doesn't occur.

You may be acting on an ideal sense of justice that requires all sinners to pay for all sins. Many bad guys will not pay for their crimes. Many innocents will die needlessly. I will not put my life on the line attempting to achieve the impossible.

The founders may be less perfect than you have learned also. Didn't George Washington have a bunch of men executed for treason only because they refused to serve without pay?

Hey man to each his own.

[gjdavis60]

This is what war looks like. This is what war always looks like. This is why the founders preached non-intervention and national defense as the only justification for war.

[Reason]

let's keep this thread on topic guys

[Jeros]

http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/ss123/RussellK30/th_forumpolice.jpg

[Reason]

http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/ss123/RussellK30/th_forumpolice.jpg

lol

[ChickenHawk]

I'm no more appalled by this video than I am by war in general. War is hell and this video is just more proof of that. In war you don't walk up to your enemy and ask him if he is really the bad guy or if he just looks like one. You don't wait for your enemy to start shooting at you if you can help it. You identify a threat and you eliminate with overwhelming force so you you can live to fight another day. Or as General Patton once said "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."

They could have flown in closer for a better look. Maybe they would have noticed that the guy had a camera. Or maybe it would have turned out to be an RPG and they would have gotten shot down. And I'm pretty sure there was at least one RPG on the scene.

When the van shows up in a war zone that just got the crap blown out of it with a 30mm cannon it seams reasonable to me that the are likely BGs too and it would probably the last thing on my mind to think that someone would intentionally drive into something like that with kids in the car.

I also think that everyone that has posted in this thread, if put in a war zone, would do all sorts of things that they would probably call "war crimes" if they saw someone else do it. When you have people behind every building trying to kill you with Kalashnikovs and RPGs you will probably be champing at the bit to shoot first and ask questions later too.

I think it's a fair be appalled by the war in general and question why we are there but it is not fair to be appalled by soldiers using a wide degree of latitude in choosing to identify and eliminate threats. That's the nature of war.

I also think it's outragous that so many seem to imply that only the US would do something so "evil". Stuff far, far worse than this has happened in every war ever fought by every nation that's ever fought a war. It's war and some people just don't seem to get it. If anything we have sanitzed war too much and have way too stringent rules of engagment. War should be no holds barred blood, guts and mayhem. That way people will be far less likely to engage in them.

[Reason]

I'm no more appalled by this video than I am by war in general. War is hell and this video is just more proof of that. In war you don't walk up to your enemy and ask him if he is really the bad guy or if he just looks like one. You don't wait for your enemy to start shooting at you if you can help it. You identify a threat and you eliminate with overwhelming force so you you can live to fight another day. Or as General Patton once said "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."

They could have flown in closer for a better look. Maybe they would have noticed that the guy had a camera. Or maybe it would have turned out to be an RPG and they would have gotten shot down. And I'm pretty sure there was at least one RPG on the scene.

When the van shows up in a war zone that just got the crap blown out of it with a 30mm cannon it seams reasonable to me that the are likely BGs too and it would probably the last thing on my mind to think that someone would intentionally drive into something like that with kids in the car.

I also think that everyone that has posted in this thread, if put in a war zone, would do all sorts of things that they would probably call "war crimes" if they saw someone else do it. When you have people behind every building trying to kill you with Kalashnikovs and RPGs you will probably be champing at the bit to shoot first and ask questions later too.

I think it's a fair be appalled by the war in general and question why we are there but it is not fair to be appalled by soldiers using a wide degree of latitude in choosing to identify and eliminate threats. That's the nature of war.

I also think it's outragous that so many seem to imply that only the US would do something so "evil". Stuff far, far worse than this has happened in every war ever fought by every nation that's ever fought a war. It's war and some people just don't seem to get it. If anything we have sanitzed war too much and have way too stringent rules of engagment. War should be no holds barred blood, guts and mayhem. That way people will be far less likely to engage in them.

It's not under dispute that the man was the journalist with a camera, there was no RPG.

In reference to your points about actions we might take if in such a situation all I can say is, that is exactly why we shouldn't be invading the world and putting ourselves in such situations.

However...

There is a wiiiiiiide range of "personalities" (for lack of a better word) that exist within the military...

I can tell you, and I am sure that many others can as well, that there are many many men in the military filled with a sort of sociopath type attitude that have extremely racist collectivism boiling in their veins that enjoy nothing more than pulling the trigger.

I witnessed this first hand.

It bothered me then.

it bothers me now.

Listening to the gunner in that video beg for the injured man crawling across the ground to touch a weapon so that he could proceed to pulverize his body brought those disturbing memories right back..

/vomit

[silus]

I'm no more appalled by this video than I am by war in general. War is hell and this video is just more proof of that. In war you don't walk up to your enemy and ask him if he is really the bad guy or if he just looks like one. You don't wait for your enemy to start shooting at you if you can help it. You identify a threat and you eliminate with overwhelming force so you you can live to fight another day. Or as General Patton once said "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."

They could have flown in closer for a better look. Maybe they would have noticed that the guy had a camera. Or maybe it would have turned out to be an RPG and they would have gotten shot down. And I'm pretty sure there was at least one RPG on the scene.

When the van shows up in a war zone that just got the crap blown out of it with a 30mm cannon it seams reasonable to me that the are likely BGs too and it would probably the last thing on my mind to think that someone would intentionally drive into something like that with kids in the car.

I also think that everyone that has posted in this thread, if put in a war zone, would do all sorts of things that they would probably call "war crimes" if they saw someone else do it. When you have people behind every building trying to kill you with Kalashnikovs and RPGs you will probably be champing at the bit to shoot first and ask questions later too.

I think it's a fair be appalled by the war in general and question why we are there but it is not fair to be appalled by soldiers using a wide degree of latitude in choosing to identify and eliminate threats. That's the nature of war.

I also think it's outragous that so many seem to imply that only the US would do something so "evil". Stuff far, far worse than this has happened in every war ever fought by every nation that's ever fought a war. It's war and some people just don't seem to get it. If anything we have sanitzed war too much and have way too stringent rules of engagment. War should be no holds barred blood, guts and mayhem. That way people will be far less likely to engage in them.
Please. There are always strict rules of engagement. And thats how our military operates today. If you cannot acknowledge that then you should not be commenting. Because the point to be made here is whether this was a clear cut violation of that, or it was borderline or within regulation. Your point was just..."Oh, oh yea bad stuff always happens in war so you can't really make any distinctions anywhere..." :rolleyes:

[devil21]

Wow where to start?


I'm no more appalled by this video than I am by war in general. War is hell and this video is just more proof of that. In war you don't walk up to your enemy and ask him if he is really the bad guy or if he just looks like one. You don't wait for your enemy to start shooting at you if you can help it. You identify a threat and you eliminate with overwhelming force so you you can live to fight another day. Or as General Patton once said "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."

Then we wonder why things like 9/11 happen. :confused:
You don't ask if he's the enemy but you don't shoot at a group of unarmed people either. That's not war. That's massacre.



They could have flown in closer for a better look. Maybe they would have noticed that the guy had a camera. Or maybe it would have turned out to be an RPG and they would have gotten shot down. And I'm pretty sure there was at least one RPG on the scene.

They could have done a lot of things differently and most of them wouldn't have resulted in the needless ventilation of cameramen and children. Otherwise, you're suggesting that military is trained to do nothing but shoot at whatever moves without regard for who or what they are shooting at. I watched the video and saw one person with a rifle out of the entire group. I think it's safe to assume he was providing security for the Reuters employees. Feel free to point out the RPG but I looked repeatedly and saw no such RPG.



When the van shows up in a war zone that just got the crap blown out of it with a 30mm cannon it seams reasonable to me that the are likely BGs too and it would probably the last thing on my mind to think that someone would intentionally drive into something like that with kids in the car.

Or maybe they actually give a shit about other people, particularly CAMERAMEN THAT ARE NOT COMBATANTS that just got shot up by a helicopter. Naaa....couldn't be that...they must be terrorists. After all, who gives a shit about their fellow man these days? :confused:



I also think that everyone that has posted in this thread, if put in a war zone, would do all sorts of things that they would probably call "war crimes" if they saw someone else do it. When you have people behind every building trying to kill you with Kalashnikovs and RPGs you will probably be champing at the bit to shoot first and ask questions later too.

Speak for yourself. If Im flying around in a heavily armed and armored Apache with the latest in technology then Im not terribly concerned about the 7.62 on iron sights 300 yards beneath me. What the chopper should have done was tracked the group and called in ground forces to investigate, not beg to open fire on anything and everything that moves. This sort of mentality is why MORE people take up arms against US soldiers, but I'm sure the guys in the Apaches aren't worried about that. There's not many IEDs in the air.



I think it's a fair be appalled by the war in general and question why we are there but it is not fair to be appalled by soldiers using a wide degree of latitude in choosing to identify and eliminate threats. That's the nature of war.

THIS IS NOT WAR! Lighting up a group of unarmed people in an urban setting from a helicopter is not war by anyone's definition. Well except maybe neocons and (ahem) chickenhawks.



I also think it's outragous that so many seem to imply that only the US would do something so "evil". Stuff far, far worse than this has happened in every war ever fought by every nation that's ever fought a war. It's war and some people just don't seem to get it. If anything we have sanitzed war too much and have way too stringent rules of engagment. War should be no holds barred blood, guts and mayhem. That way people will be far less likely to engage in them.

I agreed with most of that up until you essentially said it's acceptable to shoot unarmed people from helicopters. Apparently you support the wiping out of entire populations, combatants or not. I do not. I do agree that atrocities are committed by all, from genocide in Rwanda to this particular episode and everything in between. It's nothing new. Look back to the bombing of Dresden or scenes from movies like Full Metal Jacket: "How can you shoot women and children??" "Easy you just don't lead em so much!"
It does happen and probably will continue to happen. Having said that, that doesn't excuse it and certainly doesn't give the government the right to lie and cover up the atrocities when they happen. Those chopper pilots probably got medals for their "bravery" and promotions. That doesn't make their conduct acceptable and in the larger picture, it is episodes like that that breed more hate toward Americans, which in turn leads to more terrorism and more danger to the troops on the ground in these countries.

[tpreitzel]

Personally, I'd like to see the medical histories of all crew members preceding this tragedy.

[Pauls' Revere]

This video should also remind those who are eager to take up arms exactly what that would mean. This is not the romantic Red Dawn, nor one shot shoot & scoot from Grampa's hunting rifle. This is the LAST thing any rational person should want, regardless of our objectives. While there is still hope in a peaceful resolution, I will give all that I am in pursuit of it.

Amen...

[Pauls' Revere]

If it comes down to this. This is what you'll be up against.

[Razmear]

Personally, I'd like to see the medical histories of all crew members preceding this tragedy.

Don't know about the anti-depressants, but they are routinely given Provigil which is an anti-narcolepsy drug so they can stay awake and alert for 30 or more hours.
My wife takes that med for it's intended purpose and in researching it I found out about it's military usage.

re: the vid.
I can see the first firefight being written off to the 'Fog of War', but shooting unarmed individuals removing wounded from the battlefield is a clear violation of all that is decent, and probably the Geneva Convention as well.

--
A bit more about provigil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Military_and_astronaut_use


One study of helicopter pilots suggested that 600 mg of modafinil given in three doses can be used to keep pilots alert and maintain their accuracy at pre-deprivation levels for 40 hours without sleep. However, significant levels of nausea and vertigo were observed. Another study of fighter pilots showed that modafinil given in three divided 100 mg doses sustained the flight control accuracy of sleep-deprived F-117 pilots to within about 27 percent of baseline levels for 37 hours, without any considerable side effects.


Side effects:


In clinical trials on humans, taking up to 1200 mg/day for 7 to 21 days or one-time doses up to 4500 mg did not appear to cause life-threatening effects, although a number of adverse experiences were observed, including excitation or agitation, insomnia, anxiety, irritability, aggressiveness, confusion, nervousness, tremor, palpitations, sleep disturbances, nausea, and diarrhea. As of 2004, FDA is not aware of any fatal overdoses involving modafinil alone (as opposed to multiple drugs, including modafinil).


Better living thru chemistry, huh.
eb

[raiha]

This was on our paltry half hour of national news here in NZ..rather a big item and it came on before Tiger.
It said that the Pentagon is "embarrassed."
Yes shit happens in war. However all good hunters know to "identify your target' before unleashing the mayhem. I thought that military training is about disciplining soldiers in that regard.
Too many kids being macho for peer recognition. Combined with lashings of testosterone and adrenalin, the macho kicks in.
Then they come home, simmer down, realize what they have done and shoot themselves. It's a tragedy.

[tpreitzel]

Don't know about the anti-depressants, but they are routinely given Provigil which is an anti-narcolepsy drug so they can stay awake and alert for 30 or more hours.
My wife takes that med for it's intended purpose and in researching it I found out about it's military usage.

re: the vid.
I can see the first firefight being written off to the 'Fog of War', but shooting unarmed individuals removing wounded from the battlefield is a clear violation of all that is decent, and probably the Geneva Convention as well.

--
A bit more about provigil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Military_and_astronaut_use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modafinil#Military_and_astronaut_use)


Side effects:


Better living thru chemistry, huh.
eb

Well, I searched Google and found an article that indicated that the military was giving anti-depressants to combatants which I have difficulty believing so I deleted my comments. Hopefully, someone else can chime in here who's on active duty.

Yes, the actions of some crew members seemed surreal (detached) so I suspect medication played a role of some sort.

[raiha]

In clinical trials on humans, taking up to 1200 mg/day for 7 to 21 days or one-time doses up to 4500 mg did not appear to cause life-threatening effects, although a number of adverse experiences were observed, including excitation or agitation, insomnia, anxiety, irritability, aggressiveness, confusion, nervousness, tremor, palpitations, sleep disturbances, nausea, and diarrhea. As of 2004, FDA is not aware of any fatal overdoses involving modafinil alone (as opposed to multiple drugs, including modafinil).

Sounds like an Amphetamine type Substance. Soldiers are probably being experimented on like in the day when they gave them LSD.

[romeno182]

i tought it would be bad, but its even worse..

[Mini-Me]

Every once in a while, I see something that reminds me why I've adapted to mostly swallow my emotions. There are so many disturbing things here, some beyond the pale, but the most striking is the sheer cruel cowardice of someone sitting in an Apache helicopter begging to open fire on anyone he can find any excuse for killing.

[Reason]

Watched "Letters From Iwo Jima" tonight...

I seem to find myself wondering almost daily...

When will history stop repeating itself?

Will we never learn?

There is no winner in war.

[.Tom]

I can't even watch this video.

Even the worst shock site doesn't make me flinch, but this brought tears to my eyes.

Soldiers are murderers and absolute scum. I'm adding a "Fuck the troops" bumper sticker to my car.

And don't give me the "They were just following orders" bullshit. If a mafia leader tells you to murder a bunch of children, it's your fault because you're the one who did it. His words are nothing without your action.

Disgusting. I hate the military.

[Mini-Me]

Watched "Letters From Iwo Jima" tonight...

I seem to find myself wondering almost daily...

When will history stop repeating itself?

Will we never learn?

There is no winner in war.

Oh, there are definitely winners. They're just all far away from the battlefield. Recall, "War is the health of the state."

[nayjevin]

Oh, there are definitely winners. They're just all far away from the battlefield. Recall, "War is the health of the state."

Yes. Foreign policy would be easy to change. It's just too profitable.

[fatjohn]

Posted a mail 10 hours ago to Belgian newspaper: It's now headline news. Don't know it was my mail that had anything to do with it, but certainly did nothing for the worse.

[romeno182]

now its on every news in the whole world

[specialkornflake]

Yes, I spotted it on google news top stories for a moment. My guess is it will be back later. I sent an email to CNN Situation Room saying that they whitewashed their reporting.

[speciallyblend]

Yes, I spotted it on google news top stories for a moment. My guess is it will be back later. I sent an email to CNN Situation Room saying that they whitewashed their reporting.

we are better off using the social networks and online sites. the msm including fox,cnn and msnbc are worthless dingleberries!!

[specialkornflake]

we are better off using the social networks and online sites. the msm including fox,cnn and msnbc are worthless dingleberries!!

They could be better, they could be worse, unfortunately a good number of people still get their news from them.

Using social media I'm already so used to hearing the "news" a day or two or even weeks before it's "news"!

[pcosmar]

It is noticeably missing from mainstream media.When it is mentioned, it has spin on and key details off.
It should be a tactical training film for the home defense crowd.

This is our future.
:mad:

[fatjohn]

now its on every news in the whole world

they can't go around it when its freaking viral. youtube vid stopped at 711000 six hours ago. Never seen anything like it.

[DAFTEK]

I doubt FAUX NEWS will say a word on this...

http://www.infowars.com/images2/cartoons/faux_news.jpg

[noxagol]

It is noticeably missing from mainstream media.When it is mentioned, it has spin on and key details off.
It should be a tactical training film for the home defense crowd.

This is our future.
:mad:

Yeah, every time I see these sort of videos I'm always studying how they see things.

[Bruno]

Reuters has it on their page (finally)

CNN with a video link.

Fox has it lower with the headline: Video Appears to Show U.S. Forces Killing Civilians

Nothing on Drudge

[TheState]

"Help wikileaks investigate video of Afghan massacre"


There is more. Sources have also given WikiLeaks an encrypted military video from a May 2009 attack in western Afghanistan which killed over 100 civilians, including many women and children, though bombs. The U.S. Military has said it would release the video, but it has not.

http://spot.us/pitches/396-help-wikileaks-release-classified-u-s-military-footage-of-massive-civilian-deaths

[fj45lvr]

shoot first, ask questions later

[catdd]

Reuters has it on their page (finally)

CNN with a video link.

Fox has it lower with the headline: Video Appears to Show U.S. Forces Killing Civilians

Nothing on Drudge


Bigger Headlines on FOX - "Al Qaeda Attempting To Disrupt Elections" - as neocons go into damage control.

[Bruno]

Bigger Headlines on FOX - "Al Qaeda Attempting To Disrupt Elections" - as neocons go into damage control.

Don't look there, look over here! :rolleyes:

[tropicangela]

When is Obama going to comment on it?

[idirtify]

I'm no more appalled by this video than I am by war in general. War is hell and this video is just more proof of that. In war you don't walk up to your enemy and ask him if he is really the bad guy or if he just looks like one. You don't wait for your enemy to start shooting at you if you can help it. You identify a threat and you eliminate with overwhelming force so you you can live to fight another day. Or as General Patton once said "The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."

They could have flown in closer for a better look. Maybe they would have noticed that the guy had a camera. Or maybe it would have turned out to be an RPG and they would have gotten shot down. And I'm pretty sure there was at least one RPG on the scene.

When the van shows up in a war zone that just got the crap blown out of it with a 30mm cannon it seams reasonable to me that the are likely BGs too and it would probably the last thing on my mind to think that someone would intentionally drive into something like that with kids in the car.

I also think that everyone that has posted in this thread, if put in a war zone, would do all sorts of things that they would probably call "war crimes" if they saw someone else do it. When you have people behind every building trying to kill you with Kalashnikovs and RPGs you will probably be champing at the bit to shoot first and ask questions later too.

I think it's a fair be appalled by the war in general and question why we are there but it is not fair to be appalled by soldiers using a wide degree of latitude in choosing to identify and eliminate threats. That's the nature of war.

I also think it's outragous that so many seem to imply that only the US would do something so "evil". Stuff far, far worse than this has happened in every war ever fought by every nation that's ever fought a war. It's war and some people just don't seem to get it. If anything we have sanitzed war too much and have way too stringent rules of engagment. War should be no holds barred blood, guts and mayhem. That way people will be far less likely to engage in them.

Yeah, war is hell…whatever. Just remember that WE are invading their country illegally and then calling them “insurgents” and blowing them to bits. I guess the hell of war is also why the offending troops were laughing about it. If we really want to help stop these wars, how about we stop giving convenient excuses to ones who commit war crimes? I got an idea. How about we post the names and faces of the shooters along with the video? Do we know who they are? Are we afraid to do that? Would they shoot us too…and then laugh?

(Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I have not had time to read the whole thread.)

[Bruno]

When is Obama going to comment on it?

I held my breath for awhile this morning, but I turned blue and figured it wasn't healthy so I stopped.

[vegaspilot03]

i couldnt work well after watching this...

[RCA]

I held my breath for awhile this morning, but I turned blue and figured it wasn't healthy so I stopped.

lol

[Bruno]

Appears Fox pulled it fromj the front page. You have to go to the Politics section. Gee, that lasted a long time. At least there is an article about the Ipad, that's more important. :rolleyes:

Government Seeks $16M Penalty Against Toyota
LIVESHOTS: Whitman Injects $20M Into Campaign
iPad Finally Purchased, Teenagers Start Destroying
White House 'Ready' for New Supreme Court Vacancy
Sanitation Workers Find Body Parts in N.J. Trash
EXCLUSIVE: Reid Goes 'On the Record' With Greta
Border Fence Under New Fire After Rancher Killing
White House Slams Karzai for Taliban Threat
- U.S. Consulate Attacked in Northwest Pakistan
Al Qaeda Suspected in Baghdad Blasts | VIDEO
Real-Life 'Weekend at Bernie's' Could Land 2 in Jail
Prescription Drug Overdoses on the Rise in U.S.
Technical Troubles Complicate Shuttle Mission
Tea Party Critics Had Little Interest in Bush-Bashers
- Rep. Cohen: 'Hardcore' Anger Without 'Robes, Hoods'
Two Canadian Neighbors Discover They're Brothers
When 'Big One' Hits, Is Calif. in Trouble? | SLIDESHOW
Dozens Dead in India in Rebel Attacks on Soldiers

[DAFTEK]

This video has made me so sad today, i have had a US flag displayed 24/7 for the past 15 years since i purchased my first home. Today i took the flag down and ordered a new one. Shame on you OBAMA! YOU LIE!

http://www.inminds.co.uk/mar22-03-0060.jpg

[winston_blade]

This video has made me so sad today, i have had a US flag displayed 24/7 for the past 15 years since i purchased my first home. Today i took the flag down and ordered a new one. Shame on you OBAMA! YOU LIE!

http://www.inminds.co.uk/mar22-03-0060.jpg

It happened under Bush though.

[RM918]

It happened under Bush though.

Obama has been entirely complicit, however, and under the guise of an 'anti-war candidate' he simply furthered Bush's agenda. Nevertheless, the statement does seem to be misdirected in this context.

[Bruno]

It happened under Bush though.

Technically absolutely correct.

But since the old boss = the new boss, and Iraq rules of engagement have probably not changed, this is likely still happening or will again soon.

[RyanRSheets]

It happened under Bush though.

Wait till the video of the Afghanistan incident from 2009 is released.

[ChickenHawk]

You guys keep implying they intentionally killed unarmed civilians. Lets set aside that fact that in Iraq "civilians" is a rather difficult thing to verify. There was someone in that crowd that was holding something that looked very much like an RPG. Then someone hides behind the corner of a building and kneels down with what appears to be an RPG. If I'm in a war zone in a helicopter that is going to have me a bit worried.

One thing this video does show is why occupations like this should be avoided like the plague.

[lester1/2jr]

http://gawker.com/5510094/wikileaks-video-demonstrates-conclusively-that-innocent-people-get-killed-in-wars


journalistic solidarity? you must be kidding. Don't you know the real heroes are on the front lines in Hollywood and Manhattan?

[M House]

You guys keep implying they intentionally killed unarmed civilians. Lets set aside that fact that in Iraq "civilians" is a rather difficult thing to verify. There was someone in that crowd that was holding something that looked very much like an RPG. Then someone hides behind the corner of a building and kneels down with what appears to be an RPG. If I'm in a war zone in a helicopter that is going to have me a bit worried.

One thing this video does show is why occupations like this should be avoided like the plague.

Nobody in the video no matter how many times you look at it is holding anything close to the size of a RPG. You can try and do that eye trick you use on those holographic pictures however it'll still be like there's nothing there.

[pcosmar]

You guys keep implying they intentionally killed unarmed civilians. Lets set aside that fact that in Iraq "civilians" is a rather difficult thing to verify. There was someone in that crowd that was holding something that looked very much like an RPG. Then someone hides behind the corner of a building and kneels down with what appears to be an RPG. If I'm in a war zone in a helicopter that is going to have me a bit worried.

One thing this video does show is why occupations like this should be avoided like the plague.

They did intentionally kill civilians. The Van. No weapons and offering aid to the wounded.

No, we should not be there. That does not excuse it.
We need to be concerned when we are in the crosshairs of that same chopper.
That is our future.

[lester1/2jr]

you would think by 2007 they would be trained to tell the difference between journalists and insurgents. either these guys are incompetent, crazy and/or were actively killing journalists and covering it up with inane banter about fightin bad guys

[DAFTEK]

It happened under Bush though.


:mad:


YouTube - Obama's PROMISE To End The Iraq War - Oct. 27, 2007 - "You Can Take That To The Bank" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZvWilRn0L8)

[CUnknown]

I think that, if you say the soliders violated the rules of engagement and went on a killing spree, that they should be prosecuted. However, this seems extremely unlikely to me. If that were the case, why did the military try to cover this up?

What seems more likely is that, indeed, they were following the rules of engagement. In which case, Bush/Cheney, and when we get the video of Afghanistan war crimes, Obama finally should be impeached.

[phazespace]

:mad:


YouTube - Obama's PROMISE To End The Iraq War - Oct. 27, 2007 - "You Can Take That To The Bank" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZvWilRn0L8)



A better one....

YouTube - Steven Seagal responds to Obama's campaign promise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGLeDHw-9V8)

[JCF]

I've seen some pictures posted on other websites, I followed a link to some 'Jawa report'. By the looks of it, it does seem to be obviously biased but if you look at the pictures you'll see that they may have some weapons.

http://i41.tinypic.com/343tb0j.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/US-murder_iraqi_AK47.JPG

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/US-murder_iraqi_RPG.JPG

Journalists go around with these kinds of people all the time. I was watching a PBS documentary where the journalist was with some Taliban group; during this documentary they set up some road side bombs and the journalists went with them, waiting for the bombs to blow up the Americans/Iraqi Police. The journalists didn't risk their lives to save the "innocents" they stayed back and waited, not saying they should have since it would have cost them their lives, but it just proves out there it's about protecting your own.


Now the military had previously lied. Why? because they shot innocents, to your average person it doesn't matter if they were with the "bad guys" or not. I'm not defending them but that's probably the reason why they lied, and someone should be punished.

---

The problem is this video set people up from the beginning, with the pictures and son crying and the quotes... It opened up your hearts so automatically you're not thinking logically, you're using emotion.

if you just watched the video without any dramatic stops or highlights ***THESE ARE THE CHILDREN WATCH AS THE EVIL AMERICANS SHOOT THEM**** You may be more critical of it as everyone should be. I'm not saying people should not also be critical of the military, I'm glad this came out... BUT we shouldn't just take it at face value and rely on what the author says. We should NOT use lies OR fabrications to get out message out; even if it benefits us, that's what politicians do and look where it got us.

[M House]

Seriously dude it's a shadow. That's what happens when your out and there's a sun around.

[JCF]

Seriously dude it's a shadow. That's what happens when your out and there's a sun around.





The single shot does look like a shadow.


but if you look at the .gif it appears to be a solid object. It also seems way too dark.

[M House]

Okay the RPG you pointed to is clearly the man's shadow. The AK-47 is a stationary shadow probably caused by an object behind the man. As you can see both of his hands are empty and pointed forward.

[talkingpointes]

So is there a reason to believe this guy even if TRUE would just walk around wielding a RPG. Even while Apaches are flying over head ? That seems extremely ludicrous especially when hearing him (gunman) talking about the guy crawling on the ground as he repeats "just pick something up so I can shoot you". Maybe they were just looking for an excuse to shoot... That seems to me to be the most probable answer. For christ sakes they shot people picking up dead bodies and did so without mercy. Was there a reason to believe the dead bodies could of been used as weapons, to defend this in even the most minute degree is fantastically sick and leaves me wondering as to the mental state of some. The proof is in the pudding, they were hovering over an unarmed man crawling BEGGING (literally) to KILL him.

[DAFTEK]

Okay the RPG you pointed to is clearly the man's shadow. The AK-47 is a stationary shadow probably caused by an object behind the man. As you can see both of his hands are empty and pointed forward.

Beat me to it.... Pro war guys playing war games on PS3 and Xbox thrive on these videos and find themselves in lalaland every time they see blood...

Also this is Iraq not the USA i think they had a right to bear arms on their land and protect their people from we the invaders?

So do we have the right to invade and murder these people based on a lie from Washington about WMD's that they never found and continue to this day to butcher people around the the arab world?...

Please, Bush and Obama bots should hold hands and pray for this unjust war to end already. It's sickening...

[lester1/2jr]

journalists typically have an armed security detail do they not?

[JCF]

Okay the RPG you pointed to is clearly the man's shadow. The AK-47 is a stationary shadow probably caused by an object behind the man. As you can see both of his hands are empty and pointed forward.



Video, full screen, 480p...


at 3:40 you see the supposed AK-47 swinging in his hand... A few seconds later they (both with the weapons) stop all of a sudden and the ak47 appears to be gone while they walk toward the buildings.


Maybe it's my bad eyes. But I swear they look like they're carrying weapons.

These guys (the pilots) don't have the opportunity to look back at a video. They see a bunch of guys that look like they have weapons, they're stressed out and probably very hot. I'm sitting here in a chair repeatedly watching the same clips over and over again and TO ME, it does appear they have some weapons.

Yes it's probably impossible that they (the "bad guys") could shoot at and hit the Apaches but you never know, it's all about protecting these million dollar toys and themselves.

---


journalists typically have an armed security detail do they not?


Well, in the PBS documentary I watched they didn't. They were just with a bunch of guys that carried RPGs.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/talibanlines/view/?utm_campaign=viewpage&utm_medium=grid&utm_source=grid

In fact near the end they threatened to execute the journalist because the other group they teamed up with were worried. And the documentary didn't show them in a bad light in fact they stated they wouldn't stop fighting until the American's leave and it showed them hurrying school children to get out of the way before they detonate the bomb.

They had compassion for their people.

[DAFTEK]

journalists typically have an armed security detail do they not?

Yes, so do wealthy employees of US based Fox News, CNN, McDonalds and Pepsi in downtown Baghdad. :rolleyes:

[talkingpointes]

So what, totally forget about the guys with weapons. That is a moot point even after the guys with "weapons" are dead they proceeded to just shoot anyone. Shooting at people picking up dead bodies is just sick, if you can't see that then you need serious help. AK-47s Vs. Apaches are you insane ? The point is they just kill whatever, frothing at the mouth for more targets. They laughed at running the guy over. Houston we have a problem !

[JCF]

So what, totally forget about the guys with weapons. That is a moot point even after the guys with "weapons" are dead they proceeded to just shoot anyone. Shooting at people picking up dead bodies is just sick, if you can't see that then you need serious help. AK-47s Vs. Apaches are you insane ? The point is they just kill whatever, frothing at the mouth for more targets. They laughed at running the guy over. Houston we have a problem !


Unmarked van picking up the supposed enemy? Hell that's just more dead terrorists to those pilots. That's like saying it's mean if we shot German medics who were helping their own during WW2 fire fights.

Yes they probably have that policy to shoot everyone around terrorists and I guess I could say that I don't agree with that. This video should not be used to show how evil we are that we kill innocents intentionally (as it implies) but to change the rules of engagement for this current war; which would be more constructive and get more things done.


Deep down I may not agree about how it's being presented, but I also have this feeling of glee that it has so many views now. :o

[talkingpointes]

Unmarked van picking up the supposed enemy? Hell that's just more dead terrorists to those pilots. That's like saying it's mean if we shot German medics who were helping their own during WW2 fire fights.

Yes they probably have that policy to shoot everyone around terrorists and I guess I could say that I don't agree with that. This video should not be used to show how evil we are that we kill innocents intentionally (as it implies) but to change the rules of engagement for this current war; which would be more constructive and get more things done.


Deep down I may not agree about how it's being presented, but I also have this feeling of glee that it has so many views now. :o

Yes, it would be mean to shoot medics are you in lalaland. That would not just be mean but cruel.

Having rules of engagement are there for a reason. This war is basically a free for all. This video demonstrates this with stride. To say these are terrorist is quite a stretch. We are not talking about terrorist, terrorist have to show at least some degree that they're going to commit something. You don't just go around shooting civilians saying "damn, ha, well I though they were terrorist, how was I supposed to know".

Try to see this from the other side, there can be no apologizing for what we are doing. This video needs to be seen by all for what it really is, a bunch of guys looking for targets. We are not at war, we are a brutal police force with a creative policy for targets.

If a terrorist is anyone with weapons than god forbid anyone occupies America they will have to carpet bomb the entire place.

[Mini-Me]

Seriously dude it's a shadow. That's what happens when your out and there's a sun around.

Actually, if you look at the ground, you'll see that the shadows from the sun are all pointed diagonally down to the right (in the images JCF showed). Anything pointed in any other direction is almost certainly not a shadow, unless there's some huge mirror redirecting the sun at just those two guys or something.

It's difficult to see what's actually going on in that picture, but it's quite plausible those two guys were armed (as security detail would be). I can certainly see why the guys in the Apache might have thought so, even if their judgment about an RPG being present was extremely questionable. HOWEVER, you don't just go firing on people just because they're armed, even if you know for sure. You certainly don't just go firing on people when you're not sure. Most of all, you sure as hell don't sit around like an evil little child begging daddy to let you shoot an unarmed wounded man or a van of unarmed people picking up bodies and wounded. The point is: It wasn't a shadow, and a couple of guys might have actually been armed (though it's not conclusive), but it's moot anyway, because it doesn't excuse anything that happened later.

[talkingpointes]

actually, if you look at the ground, you'll see that the shadows from the sun are all pointed diagonally down to the right (in the images jcf showed). Anything pointed in any other direction is almost certainly not a shadow, unless there's some huge mirror redirecting the sun at just those two guys or something.

It's difficult to see what's actually going on in that picture, but it's quite plausible those two guys were armed (as security detail would be). I can certainly see why the guys in the apache might have thought so, even if their judgment about an rpg being present was extremely questionable. However, you don't just go firing on people just because they're armed, even if you know for sure. You certainly don't just go firing on people when you're not sure. Most of all, you sure as hell don't sit around like an evil little child begging daddy to let you shoot an unarmed wounded man or a van of unarmed people picking up bodies and wounded. The point is: It wasn't a shadow, and a couple of guys might have actually been armed (though it's not conclusive), but it's moot anyway, because it doesn't excuse anything that happened later.

+101

[talkingpointes]

There is bad judgment calls and then there is this, "PLEASE - PICK SOMETHING UP SO I CAN SHOOT YOU ". Does the Army feed these guys a steady diet of crack cocaine, I didn't see one shoot fired from the ground? Sorry but the fact that this is being done in the name of America and freedom makes this really hard to swallow. This is going to create more "enemies" for us. This is what causes blow back -- this may as well be recruiting material.

[ChickenHawk]

http://i41.tinypic.com/343tb0j.jpg



The guy in the center of the picture has an RPG. It is slung over his should and that is why his hands are empty. At one point you can pretty clearly see the pointy tip of the grenade on the end. At the end of the clip he sets it up on end in front of him and grabs it with both hands.

[talkingpointes]

The guy in the center of the picture has an RPG. It is slung over his should and that is why his hands are empty. At one point you can pretty clearly see the pointy tip of the grenade on the end. At the end of the clip he sets it up on end in front of him and grabs it with both hands.

So he has an RPG, and you can say that with 100% certainty? Mind telling me what the people in the van were armed with, maybe a set of extra hands? While you're at it tell me what they guy crawling on the ground was armed with as they were circling him like vultures BEGGING to shoot.

[devil21]

The guy in the center of the picture has an RPG. It is slung over his should and that is why his hands are empty. At one point you can pretty clearly see the pointy tip of the grenade on the end. At the end of the clip he sets it up on end in front of him and grabs it with both hands.

I'll have to watch the original video again because that clip does look like an old Soviet style RPG. It doesn't change my opinions on the episode though because there were a lot more people that were obviously not armed who were indiscriminately shot and killed. The van scene just makes it that much worse.

[M House]

The guy in the center of the picture has an RPG. It is slung over his should and that is why his hands are empty. At one point you can pretty clearly see the pointy tip of the grenade on the end. At the end of the clip he sets it up on end in front of him and grabs it with both hands.

This is why I don't find the video moving. Cuz I figure if I showed it to a bunch of people this is the kinda responses you'd get.

If you look closely at the shadow dancing on the ground, it resembles an RPG... If you check out the dark shadow that looks to be projecting from an odd angle to the guy's ass that's a AK-47...

[Erazmus]

This is the first I've seen of this. I have to say I'm quite disturbed. I think I'm even more disturbed by people's reactions to it. The indifference to the loss of life like this has me deeply troubled. I'd have to say, purely based on some of the response, a sense of humanity and compassion is missing. People rationalize what we've seen here with platitudes of war, so they don't have to confront their lost morality compass. The sheer joy and eagerness the voices in the video had to "engage" was particularly...well...wicked seems to be the only word to come to mind. I'm not sure what else to say.

Banality of evil.

[devil21]

This is why I don't find the video moving. Cuz I figure if I showed it to a bunch of people this is the kinda responses you'd get.

If you look closely at the shadow dancing on the ground, it resembles an RPG... If you check out the dark shadow that looks to be projecting from an odd angle to the guy's ass that's a AK-47...

I'm pretty sure he did have an RPG and the other had an AK. Two armed people in a group of 20 or so walking down the street, presumably they were security. Still doesn't change much though since ROE usually require some sort of hostile action toward the helicopter, which obviously didn't happen. I have a feeling the ROE were quietly "Shoot anything with a weapon and everyone around".

[talkingpointes]

Funny how we have the most technologically advanced army in history and can topple countries in a matter of weeks. Yet we can't fucking identify an ak-47 and then humor ourselves in a conversation about a shadow. Some shadows of Iraqi hovels might revel tanks or even artillery oh my !! Level the place ! Time to come home. The day we are afraid of shadows has come.

[talkingpointes]

All one needs to have compassion is just imagine if that were your family. Then imagine what you would do to those that perpetrated these crimes. In that lies the seeds of our own destruction. One cannot champion freedom, liberty and certainly not compassion when brutally murdering innocents. Sorry, they are just not compatible, justification of such occurrences is almost tantamount to committing it. These are real people, they are not just targets. This is not a game this is real life. They laughed at running them over imagine that. Back home we go up in a fury when police taze people. Here they are gunned down like stray dogs then subsequently ran over because of what; shit I didn't see them. For what other reason then damn there is so many dead bodies. My mind is boggling are the excuses coming like the flowing water. Denounce ruthless murder of innocents it isn't hard and it helps you sleep at night.

[M House]

The gunner of the AH-64 has a damn FLIR attached to the sensor turret and slaved to his fucking helmet IHADSS. If he turned it on and used it, we wouldn't be debating shadows from his TV camera.

[SWATH]

I might add that the Apache was almost 2 miles away at the time of firing based on the lag time from fire to impact, about 1.8mi actually. It was likely out of earshot to the guys on the ground. I do think there was an RPG there as well as an AK47 though...however it is their country so...we are the ones in their house.

[Jeros]

The guy in the center of the picture has an RPG. It is slung over his should and that is why his hands are empty. At one point you can pretty clearly see the pointy tip of the grenade on the end. At the end of the clip he sets it up on end in front of him and grabs it with both hands.

He may or may not have an RPG. If he did have an RPG, and he was planning on attacking an Apache, do you think he would be casually strolling around in the open? Every one of these men knew the military was around. All the guys on the corner were just hanging out casually. They weren't getting ready to attack anything. They had not fired weapons or pointed at anything. They were completely surprised by being fired on. Those were not the actions of combatants. They were the actions of fish in a barrel. If guns had been fired, by a helicopter or by insurgents in the area, they would not be hanging around casually.

I am not sure what is worse, the actions of the soldiers or people who justify the actions of them after the fact. Only a human perverted by the insanity of modern civilization would attempt to justify these actions. I refuse to believe such behavior is a normal state of sane individuals.

[talkingpointes]

He may or may not have an RPG. If he did have an RPG, and he was planning on attacking an Apache, do you think he would be casually strolling around in the open? Every one of these men knew the military was around. All the guys on the corner were just hanging out casually. They weren't getting ready to attack anything. They had not fired weapons or pointed at anything. They were completely surprised by being fired on. Those were not the actions of combatants. They were the actions of fish in a barrel. If guns had been fired, by a helicopter or by insurgents in the area, they would not be hanging around casually.

I am not sure what is worse, the actions of the soldiers or people who justify the actions of them after the fact. Only a human perverted by the insanity of modern civilization would attempt to justify these actions. I refuse to believe such behavior is a normal state of sane individuals.

Well said. I don't want to be associated with these acts, and furthermore be a target because of them.

[pcosmar]

chudrockz summed this up best,
I agree 100%.


Originally Posted by chudrockz

Seriously, anyone who can watch this with anything other than complete, unmitigated revulsion is lacking something essential, either in the mind or soul, or both.
:(
:mad:

[M House]

Ugh the dark objects in the video look and behave exactly like shadows. They do not appear to have any mass cuz they don't. They change shape and move when the people move as they logically would. The gunner has a sensor suite and turret at his disposal with FLIR.

However he also appears to have a hard-on the entire time, which could have made him distracted and disrupted his judgement. Considering that I now understand this, I realize the boner would've obscured the TADEC's LCD screen. It would also mean he'd have only one hand on his dual control sticks limiting his options. He could...

A) Put the boner, done. Then place both hands on the sticks and stare down at his displays. Not the most attractive option as it would leave him vulnerable at the rear.
B) Notify the pilot he is getting overwhelmed and wants the Apache repositioned.
C) Take some pot shots after designating his "targets"...

[lester1/2jr]

I think there are 2 men with ak 47's and that is the security detail. I believe the "rpg" is a camera with a long lense that seems to be the conventional wisdom.

Wld be helpful if the media would get some experts of any stripe to clarify all this stuff considering none of us know anything other than what we can deduce from watching on our own

[pcosmar]

I think there are 2 men with ak 47's and that is the security detail. I believe the "rpg" is a camera with a long lense that seems to be the conventional wisdom.

Wld be helpful if the media would get some experts of any stripe to clarify all this stuff considering none of us know anything other than what we can deduce from watching on our own

Don't say none of us. Speak for yourself.
I see what is on that video, I know what I am looking at.

That is why,,,,,,nvm.
:mad:

[Vessol]

I've noticed in the past few years there is seriously something fucked up in Post-9/11 American soldiers and pre-9/11 American soldiers. Or is it just me and it's always been like this?

[pcosmar]

I've noticed in the past few years there is seriously something fucked up in Post-9/11 American soldiers and pre-9/11 American soldiers. Or is it just me and it's always been like this?

I

I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

II

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

III

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

IV

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

V

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

VI

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

[tpreitzel]

I've contacted all of my "representatives" by e-mail with a link to the video. I also contacted their offices previously and discussed this matter personally. Allegedly, NONE of my representatives were aware of this video so I told them to look for the following e-mail with the contained link.

I guess this topic isn't too important at the Capitol, at least not publicly.

[Jeros]

This fellow has a good head on his shoulders.

YouTube - Wikileaks co-founder speaks to Alyona (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sYXppiOteM)

[Pericles]

I've noticed in the past few years there is seriously something fucked up in Post-9/11 American soldiers and pre-9/11 American soldiers. Or is it just me and it's always been like this?

The issue is quality of training, and it goes back some time. There was another Apache firendly fire incident in Sandbox I, and the commander and pilot that killed some friendlies couldn't take it emotionally and is scarred by the experience. Even in peacetime, there have been fatal incidents on ranges.

We now have weapons that can accurately shoot farther than we can accurately see. It takes a good dose of training and discipline to only fire at a clearly identified hostile target. Guys are amped up with the fear and adrenaline - ay which point training and habit take over.

As a commander, I spent a great deal of simulator time with the tank crews to instill that discipline and not become dependent on thermal imagery equipment, laser range finders, and all of our technology. Learn it the old school way, and then use the technology to enhance accuracy once the correct decision has been reached to send ammunition on its one way journey.

[Jeros]

The issue is quality of training, and it goes back some time. There was another Apache firendly fire incident in Sandbox I, and the commander and pilot that killed some friendlies couldn't take it emotionally and is scarred by the experience. Even in peacetime, there have been fatal incidents on ranges.

We now have weapons that can accurately shoot farther than we can accurately see. It takes a good dose of training and discipline to only fire at a clearly identified hostile target. Guys are amped up with the fear and adrenaline - ay which point training and habit take over.

As a commander, I spent a great deal of simulator time with the tank crews to instill that discipline and not become dependent on thermal imagery equipment, laser range finders, and all of our technology. Learn it the old school way, and then use the technology to enhance accuracy once the correct decision has been reached to send ammunition on its one way journey.

The issue at its core is the institution of training to kill in the first place. These men are not trained to defend. They are not trained to protect Americans or defend the constitution or justice, they are trained to follow orders and kill. Their humanity is trained out of them. No moral judgments are required of them. Moral judgments are criminal. Moral judgments would result in either inaction or the defense of the innocent, which would be punished by imprisonment, and if the conditions are right, death.

[sofia]

YouTube - Wikileak'd video shows eager-to-kill troops firing on Reuters reporters and children (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIvGhYQVPoQ&feature=player_embedded)

[Chieppa1]

Dude....where have....wow....nevermind...

[DAFTEK]

2,165,719 views
:eek::eek::eek:

[lester1/2jr]

www.crytpome.org which is sort of a non hype wikileaks had a good cynical but positive statement on the vids


Wikileaks comments reposted in response to request.

Wikileaks Apache murder video released 5 April 2010

"Full uncut version of the video primarily intended for research purposes," about 39 minutes (requires sign-in):

[/url] (far superior to the short version which is bloated with sappy editorialism, the vain publisher's promotional conceit, ah well, maybe it'll help raise funds for hardscrabblers away from fat-headed HQ.)

"Short and concise version with added context," beware that easy reader's condensation and fat added context, about 18 minutes:

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is9sxRfU-ik&aia=true) (Both versions close with Hollywood-like credits and obligatory sentimentalisms. A ka-chink appeal at the very end.)

More telling you how to enjoy, dummy, the lurid "gun-video" production, even the you-gotta-see-this-video domain name:

[url]http://collateralmurder.com

Still, the uncut and un-lipsticked video is an important counter to the flood of slick disinfo put out by DoD which never shows carnage and gore. Note the cameraman on the ground shooting close-ups of the blood and guts for after-action porn and popcorn "war is hell." And the troopers on the ground cradling badly wounded tots running to a Bradley vehicle for transport to a hospital while the kill-drunk chopper pilots rush off to gloat at blowing away a several more humans with Hellfire missiles. Others have noted that the insane officer who investigated these homicides claimed the killing was justifed because Christian belief said so. If these pilots and those who exculpated them are not imprisoned with other terrorists, it proves the USG is coddling war criminals to hide its own culpability.

[wizardwatson]

I

I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

II

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

III

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

IV

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

V

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

VI

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

FYI, this was not taught to us when I went through basic training, circa 1997.

I guess ethical guidelines aren't really a priority these days.

[BuddyRey]

Every Obama-voter in America should see this video. :(

[DAFTEK]

Every Obama-voter in America should see this video. :(

YouTube - Obama's PROMISE To End The Iraq War - Oct. 27, 2007 - "You Can Take That To The Bank" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZvWilRn0L8)

:mad:

[catdd]

80% of those being hired by the police force are former military. Now that would explain a lot.

[Reason]

Help me keep this thread bumped!

http://www.politicalforum.com/current-events/123188-video-wikileaks-releases-secret-video-journalists-civilians-killed-u-s.html

[Reason]

Looks like Democracy Now dedicated a lot of coverage to it today.

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/6/massacre_caught_on_tape_us_military

[GunnyFreedom]

YouTube - Obama's PROMISE To End The Iraq War - Oct. 27, 2007 - "You Can Take That To The Bank"

:mad:

Of course, the average Obamaton's response will be, "I haven't heard anything about Iraq in the news in a while, so we must already be gone from there!"

and when you try and tell them differently, they will scoff and call you a kook.... :mad:

[Agorism]

What's the argument for shooting the vehicle picking up the wounded?

Is that a violation of the rules of engagement?

[QueenB4Liberty]

Why would you shoot aide?

[TonySutton]

What's the argument for shooting the vehicle picking up the wounded?

Is that a violation of the rules of engagement?

By the letter of the law, I believe the vehicle needs to be marked with a red cross or red crescent to receive protection under the Geneva Convention. Typically ROE would not cover this because it is already covered in the Geneva Convention. Unmarked vehicles can be treated as combatant vehicles. The problem is these wars are not being fought like wars 50 years ago so we are applying out dated rules to modern warfare.

To give some history, in World War I after a battle, medics would freely move between trenches attending to the wounded and carrying away the dead. Neither side would harm the medics or their vehicles. Today we have warfare occurring in and around areas where people are trying to live a normal life. In the past when warfare moved to a city many of the inhabitants would flee until the fighting was over.

[Agorism]

By the letter of the law, I believe the vehicle needs to be marked with a red cross or red crescent to receive protection under the Geneva Convention. Typically ROE would not cover this because it is already covered in the Geneva Convention. Unmarked vehicles can be treated as combatant vehicles. The problem is these wars are not being fought like wars 50 years ago so we are applying out dated rules to modern warfare.

To give some history, in World War I after a battle, medics would freely move between trenches attending to the wounded and carrying away the dead. Neither side would harm the medics or their vehicles. Today we have warfare occurring in and around areas where people are trying to live a normal life. In the past when warfare moved to a city many of the inhabitants would flee until the fighting was over.



uhhh no it goes beyond that. Shortly after the initial gunning down, one of the guys is crawling injured on the ground. They decide not to shoot but you can hear the soldiers saying that he just reach for a weapon so they can have cause to finish him off.

But they decide not to fire because they have no cause.

Then way after that, the van speed in to pick people up with no weapons. So why did they have cause to fire on the van but not the injured guy?


Here's a transcript of the part I'm referring to.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/6/massacre_caught_on_tape_us_military



AMY GOODMAN: Reuters driver Saeed Chmagh survived the initial attack. Here he’s seen trying to crawl away as the helicopter flies overhead. A voice from the cockpit hopes that Saeed brandishes a weapon to justify more shooting.
US SOLDIER 2: One individual appears to be wounded, trying to crawl away.
US SOLDIER 3: Roger, we’re going to move down there.
US SOLDIER 2: Roger, we’ll cease fire.
US SOLDIER 1: Yeah, we won’t shoot anymore. He’s getting up.
US SOLDIER 2: If he has a weapon, though, in his hand?
US SOLDIER 1: No, I haven’t seen one yet. I see you guys got that guy crawling right now on the curb. Yeah, I got him. I put two rounds near him, and you guys were shooting over there, too, so we’ll see.
US SOLDIER 3: Yeah, roger that.
US SOLDIER 4: Bushmaster three-six Element, this is Hotel two-seven. Over.
US SOLDIER 3: Hotel Two-Seven, Bushmaster Seven. Go ahead.
US SOLDIER 4: Roger. I’m just trying to make sure that you guys have my turf. Over.
US SOLDIER 3: Roger, we got your turf.
US SOLDIER 2: Come on, buddy. All you gotta do is pick up a weapon.


AMY GOODMAN: The US forces notice a van pulling up to evacuate the wounded. They again open fire, killing several more people and wounding two children inside the van.
US SOLDIER 1: Where’s that van at?
US SOLDIER 2: Right down there by the bodies.
US SOLDIER 1: OK, yeah.
US SOLDIER 2: Bushmaster, Crazy Horse. We have individuals going to the scene, looks like possibly picking up bodies and weapons.
US SOLDIER 1: Let me engage. Can I shoot?
US SOLDIER 2: Roger. Break. Crazy Horse one-eight, request permission to engage.
US SOLDIER 3: Picking up the wounded?
US SOLDIER 1: Yeah, we’re trying to get permission to engage. Come on, let us shoot!
US SOLDIER 2: Bushmaster, Crazy Horse one-eight.
US SOLDIER 1: They’re taking him.
US SOLDIER 2: Bushmaster, Crazy Horse one-eight.
US SOLDIER 4: This is Bushmaster seven, go ahead.
US SOLDIER 2: Roger. We have a black SUV—or Bongo truck picking up the bodies. Request permission to engage.
US SOLDIER 4: Bushmaster seven, roger. This is Bushmaster seven, roger. Engage.
US SOLDIER 2: One-eight, engage. Clear.
US SOLDIER 1: Come on!
US SOLDIER 2: Clear. Clear.
US SOLDIER 1: We’re engaging.
US SOLDIER 2: Coming around. Clear.
US SOLDIER 1: Roger. Trying to—
US SOLDIER 2: Clear.
US SOLDIER 1: I hear ‘em—I lost ’em in the dust.
US SOLDIER 3: I got ’em.
US SOLDIER 2: Should have a van in the middle of the road with about twelve to fifteen bodies.
US SOLDIER 1: Oh yeah, look at that. Right through the windshield! Ha ha!

[TonySutton]

uhhh no it goes beyond that. Shortly after the initial gunning down, one of the guys is crawling injured on the ground. They decide not to shoot but you can hear the soldiers saying that he just reach for a weapon so they can have cause to finish him off.

But they decide not to fire because they have no cause.

Then way after that, the van speed in to pick people up with no weapons. So why did they have cause to fire on the van but not the injured guy?




Please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to justify what occurred. I was angered by what I saw in the video. I was simply trying to answer your question.

I served 20 years in the Marines and would not have engaged a vehicle trying to care for wounded, nor would I shoot at an injured combatant unless they were attempting to resume combat. I was in Lebanon in 1983 under the absolute worst ROE ever forced on US troops in a combat zone, it was not fun.

Edit: In retrospect my earlier post should have excluded your first question because I was only trying to answer the second.

[Agorism]

I just don't get what the rules of engagement are. It all seems random to me.

[tangent4ronpaul]

By the letter of the law, I believe the vehicle needs to be marked with a red cross or red crescent to receive protection under the Geneva Convention. Typically ROE would not cover this because it is already covered in the Geneva Convention. Unmarked vehicles can be treated as combatant vehicles. The problem is these wars are not being fought like wars 50 years ago so we are applying out dated rules to modern warfare.

To give some history, in World War I after a battle, medics would freely move between trenches attending to the wounded and carrying away the dead. Neither side would harm the medics or their vehicles. Today we have warfare occurring in and around areas where people are trying to live a normal life. In the past when warfare moved to a city many of the inhabitants would flee until the fighting was over.

Remember Jessica Lynch? Iraqi doctors tried to return her to US forces in an ambulance and the ambulance was opened fire on. I believe the reason given is that insurgents had recently used an ambulance as a car bomb.

-t

[tangent4ronpaul]

I just don't get what the rules of engagement are. It all seems random to me.

They basically say you can only shoot if someone is doing something hostile like points a weapon at you, fires at you, starts driving at your checkpoint really fast. Only then can you open fire.

But yes, all to often it seems more like "Driving while black".

-t

[Agorism]

I think they deserve disciplinary action at a minimum for that second attack if there is no cause for engagement. I haven't talked to anyone yet who can tell me why they attacked that second van.

Ya, you're at war, but you're way up in a helicopter and in no immediate danger.

You can't just randomly kill people.

And if it's mental stress or battle fatigue that caused the guy to make poor decisions, then send him home rather than let him keep making poor decisions that result in extra dead people.

[idirtify]

All the air AND ground troops who were involved (especially ground because they were the ones who were supposed to have confirmed that the crowd was armed and hostile before giving permission for air troops to fire) and their commanders at least deserve to have their names and faces plastered all over the internet. Who are they? Does anyone know their names?

[Agorism]

Well I think the gunner in the apache decides whether the rules of engagement are passed, but before he shoots he calls the ground forces to check on the radio to make sure he won't hit his own forces and also so that when they see the gunfire etc, they know to expect it and don't think it's some random fire coming from new insurgents or something.

So I'm am saying that the guy on the ground is not giving permission as to whether they pass the rules of engagement, but instead I think he's saying he's free to fire because there are no ground forces nearby, etc,etc and it's ok by them. Something like that.

Well that was what I got out of it anyway...

[revolutionisnow]

Military rebuttal
http://i42.tinypic.com/4jnslv.jpg

http: // mypetjawa. mu.nu/archives/201889.php

[RM918]

Military rebuttal

h ttp://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/201889.php

Haw. Sure. 'Yeah, nothing to see here, folks. Forget about that whole slaughtering the wounded and those trying to aide them.'

[pcosmar]

Military rebuttal
http://i42.tinypic.com/4jnslv.jpg

h ttp://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/201889.php

Break that link. Don't send the Pro-War neo-con propagandists traffic.
:(

[ARealConservative]

my problem with the video is based primarily on the fact that the war was bullshit.

If this was a real war - with an enemy that actually intends to do us harm, then sure. War is tough. blablabla.

But this was a bullshit preemptive war.

I think that is how most people will view the video. If they think the war is justified, they will not take fault in the video.

[Rylick]

It would be false to say that the USA is the only country that commits cruelties like this, but doing stuff like this is the reason why America's image is suffering so hard around the world. America should be the exemplar for every western country.
In Mr. Pauls words: they don't hate you because you're rich and free. They hate you because you are there and you're bombing their civilians.

American soldiers in Germany are really liked over here, because they always treated us like friends.

[revolutionisnow]

Ok, link broken, can you two who quoted me break the link also?

[M House]

In their video the object has a metallic end, now. So I'm guessing it's an object. It could be anything from a tripod to a RPG. Is this the really the best resolution an Apache has to offer for millions of dollars?

[pcosmar]

In their video the object has a metallic end, now. So I'm guessing it's an object. It could be anything from a tripod to a RPG. Is this the really the best resolution an Apache has to offer for millions of dollars?

:confused:
And of course people in a war torn area with rival warlords and criminal gangs would have no use for arms. :rolleyes:

btw. this footage was shot from well over a mile away.

[M House]

I just think it's weird that video has the metallic glint and the other does not. Wait a sec you look one or both of the videos could be um "edited" for content.

[UtahApocalypse]

I have NO problem with the first shooting part. They people did have objects which could have been thought of to be weapons. In the fog of war you don't have time to check.

My issue was the blasting of the van that came to RENDER MEDICAL AID. They even were saying that the van was there to get wounded persons. The van was NOT a threat of any kind.

[pcosmar]

I have NO problem with the first shooting part. They people did have objects which could have been thought of to be weapons. In the fog of war you don't have time to check.

My issue was the blasting of the van that came to RENDER MEDICAL AID. They even were saying that the van was there to get wounded persons. The van was NOT a threat of any kind.

Thank you.
The first part is questionable. Not justifiable, but possibly understandable.
The van is not. That was clear.
:mad:

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

If this was a just war and we were actually defending American lives I would have no problem with this video. But the fact we are over in another nation based on lies, that has absolutely no effect on our lives here in America and we are over there spraying 50 Cals like supersoakers disturbs me a lot.

[puppetmaster]

Thank you.
The first part is questionable. Not justifiable, but possibly understandable.
The van is not. That was clear.
:mad:

I do not agree with any of the actions. This Apache was not in danger and was not being targeted nor was there a battle on the ground at this location.

The distance the bird was at was quite evident by the lack of interest by the targets and the length of time it took the rounds to hit their targets.
AKs pose no threat to one of these, even at closer range. and RPGs are also quite useless at this range with the counter measures available on the Apache.

[tropicangela]

My 12 year old son would like to know where the insurgents got the AK47's and RPG's.

[Son of Detroit]

The thing that bothers me the most is not the action itself, but the attitudes of those in the chopper. They are actually enjoying taking the lives of other human beings.

If I ever have to use lethal force to defend myself in any situation, I will have to live with the fact that I took the life of another human for the rest of my life. There is no situation where I would enjoy killing another person. None.

[puppetmaster]

My 12 year old son would like to know where the insurgents got the AK47's and RPG's.


tell him IRAN....no tell him Mexico who in turn got them from the US....LOL
I joke

[puppetmaster]

The thing that bothers me the most is not the action itself, but the attitudes of those in the chopper. They are actually enjoying taking the lives of other human beings.

If I ever have to use lethal force to defend myself in any situation, I will have to live with the fact that I took the life of another human for the rest of my life. There is no situation where I would enjoy killing another person. None.

So are you saying that they were justified in their actions, and if they had shown remorse then it would have been acceptable?
This situation was not self defense

[Agorism]

I was the one who posted the jawareport link on ronpaulforums and the dailypaul first.

Then he posted the jawareport back to me as an answer to my question.

Kind of insulting since it answered nothing of the topic we were just discussing.

[Son of Detroit]

So are you saying that they were justified in their actions, and if they had shown remorse then it would have been acceptable?
This situation was not self defense

No, read what I said. I'm just commenting on their enjoyment in killing another human.

I said I myself could never have fun taking the life of another person, and it would live on my conscience for the rest of my life. Even if I had to do it in self-defense.

[CUnknown]

In their video the object has a metallic end, now. So I'm guessing it's an object. It could be anything from a tripod to a RPG. Is this the really the best resolution an Apache has to offer for millions of dollars?

No, it isn't the best resolution they can get. In the Democracy Now interview, the Wikileaks guy says the original would have been much higher quality.. they had to decrypt and covert it several times, so it lost quality.

In light of this, I think it is quite likely that they were simply lying to their superiors when they claimed he had an RPG -- they wanted permission to fire. You can see that again when he says "Just touch a weapon" when the guy is crawling around, dying.

Also, it's pretty likely that they saw the kids in the car. When the infantrymen say "There's wounded kids down here" and the pilot responds "Oh, no.." remember that they're speaking to people (their commander, the infantry on the ground) who haven't seen this footage. Even if they clearly saw the kids, they have to at least pretend like they didn't. It's impossible to tell for sure what they saw and what they didn't see, but I think it's at least possible that this was cold-blooded murder from beginning to end.

[pcosmar]

My 12 year old son would like to know where the insurgents got the AK47's and RPG's.

They are sold openly and publicly in the markets of Iraq.
AK 47 is the common weapon of choice, but many types are available.


From the Los Angeles Times, May 12, 2003 (no URL - print edition):

Surrounded By Chaos In Iraq, Middle Class Takes Up Arms

Alarmed by a sharp increase in street crime, professionals are joining those who are buying stolen weapons like there's no tomorrow.

By Laura King, Times Staff Writer

BAGHDAD - Hikmat, a retired Iraqi accountant, has a gentle, distracted, scholarly air. And a problem to resolve: Should he get himself a Kalashnikov assault rifle, or go with a Browning 9-millimeter pistol?

"I've pretty much settled on the Kalashnikov," said the balding 67-year-old, who has never owned a gun. "A pistol just isn't enough."

Alarmed by a sharp upsurge in street crime - brazen daylight robberies, continued looting and the relatively recent phenomenon of violent carjackings - Baghdad's professional class is rapidly arming itself, drawing on a vast pool of illicit weaponry that has flooded the capital since the fall of Saddam Hussein and his regime.

Hikmat, who did not want his full name made public, said he doesn't like the idea of having a gun in his home but feels he has to be able to defend himself and his family against the city's plague of thieves.

Like half a dozen newly gun-owning members of the middle class interviewed in recent days - doctors, lawyers, architects and professors - Hikmat expressed feelings of guilt over contributing to the climate of lawlessness by buying what was undoubtedly a stolen weapon.

But he said he doesn't believe that either the recently reassembled Iraqi police force or U.S. troops can provide citizens with any sense of security.

"When that day comes, I will throw out my Kalashnikov," he said. "But not until then."

The nervous well-to-do are not the only ones purchasing guns in this country where the streets, at least, were safe under Hussein. Ad hoc militias, criminal gangs, ethnic Kurds and rural tribesman also are all on a weapons-buying binge - a development that is worrying to the U.S. forces that are trying to restore some semblance of order in both the capital and the countryside.

Thriving weapons bazaars have sprung up all over Baghdad, ranging from small, surreptitious knots of dealers operating out of their cars to sprawling, semipermanent markets where the gun merchants helpfully organize themselves by specialty, price range and degree of firepower. Just about everything is on offer, from scope-fitted sniper rifles to rocket-propelled grenade launchers.

No one has tried to publicly estimate the number of light weapons and handguns that have made their way onto the open market - other than to say that the quantity is enormous, even for a country with an established gun culture.

Weapons stocks at abandoned Iraqi military bases, together with formidable arsenals at neighborhood and district headquarters of Hussein's Baath Party, were picked clean by looters in the days after U.S. troops moved into Baghdad. And that doesn't even include the weapons the Baath Party handed out to residents before the war for their country's defense. Many of these guns are up for grabs.

"This whole country was an armed camp," Lt. Gen. David McKiernan, the commander of U.S. ground forces in Iraq, told reporters last week. "There were weapons and ammunition storage sites everywhere in Iraq."

U.S. troops policing the capital have made weapons seizures a high priority, but it is a Sisyphean task.

A gun dealer who gave his name as Ali, with close-cropped hair and a cigarette drooping from his lips, was doing a brisk business on a recent day in central Baghdad out of the trunk of his beat-up Datsun. Around him, other vendors leaned merchandise against their cars or used old refrigerators as display cases.

"It's very easy to hide - we see the tanks and Humvees coming, and we do this," he said, closing his trunk as he spotted a small contingent of U.S. troops approaching. "You just have to stay calm and not panic. If you run, they'll catch you."

A gun-market customer, 27-year-old Amer Janabi, said U.S. troops had confiscated his pistol a few days earlier after seeing it stuck in his waistband.

"No problem," he said, fanning out half a dozen $100 bills. "I'm going to buy another. Maybe two."

In the first weeks after the major combat ended, gun prices fluctuated because the sellers, some of them only teenagers, didn't know what they could charge for their wares. The price of a Kalashnikov dipped to as low as $20 before stabilizing at between $50 and $100, depending on its condition, dealers said.

Bullets can be had for as little as a penny apiece.

Although the sheer volume of weaponry for sale these days may be unprecedented, Iraqis are no strangers to gun ownership, particularly in the countryside.

"Guns have been a part of the culture for a long, long time," said Johan Sohlberg of the International Committee of the Red Cross, who is a regional advisor on land-mine clearance. "That didn't begin with the war, and it won't end with it."

During the Hussein years, it wasn't difficult to obtain a gun license, even without any connection to the ruling elite. As privations caused by a dozen years of economic sanctions took hold, the main obstacle for most would-be buyers was the price - about $150 for the license alone.

Licensed dealers, whose prices are generally higher than in the cutthroat milieu of the bazaars, are now feeling pinched by their illicit competition - and are wondering whether they will be able to continue to operate once an interim Iraqi government is in place.

They also grumble that the U.S. authorities seem to have trouble distinguishing between legitimate businesses and the bazaars that deal in stolen weapons.

"Some of them came here, and I showed them all the papers to show that my guns are not stolen, but they didn't have anyone with them who could read the documents," said gun merchant Eymad Chalabi, who has done business for five years out of the same downtown storefront.

"I was afraid they were going to confiscate everything, but in the end they brought someone who could explain to them that I could show proof of purchase on all my stock."

One byproduct of Hussein's feared security apparatus was that street crime was almost unheard of. Now, many Baghdad residents talk of little but their newfound sense of insecurity.

Widow Rose Razafian, 70, whose husband was a bank executive, lives in a well-appointed house shaded by palm trees.

She has hired an armed watchman and keeps a generator roaring away all night to keep the outside lights on and deter thieves.

Before she goes to shop for bread for breakfast, she takes off her jewelry and then carries only the $2 or $3 she intends to spend.

"We never felt this way before. There is no one in charge, no government," she said. "You hear gunfire all night long, there are looters everywhere you turn - it makes us frightened."

Even some of those doing well in the nascent weapons economy are taken aback by the degree of violence associated with it. Ali, the car-trunk gun dealer, named several weapons bazaars in poorer districts of the capital that he said he would be afraid to frequent, either as a seller or a buyer.

"Even we don't dare to go to some of these places," he said.

In some quarters, U.S. efforts to crack down on gun merchants are meeting with solid approval. Rafid Soudani, a 34-year-old father of three, looked on approvingly as U.S. troops from the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment arrested a gun dealer who had been doing business on his doorstep.

"How can I raise a family here?" Soudani said. "It went on at all hours of the night, people buying guns and then firing them off to show they work. Crazy. Crazy."

But the soldiers acknowledged that they could contain only a fraction of the illegal trade.

"We just can't keep up with it," 1st Lt. Travis Shain of Killeen, Texas, said as two Iraqis were cuffed with plastic ties and loaded into a Humvee in the wake of the U.S. raid.

Some Iraqis were determined to take the long view, even while acknowledging a sense of fear and uncertainty.

"Change is good for us, for every Iraqi," said Abdul Kamal Din, a
mathematics professor who keeps a rifle in the house. "But our future still isn't clear. And it can't be, because there's no feeling of safety."

[tropicangela]

They are sold openly and publicly in the markets of Iraq.
AK 47 is the common weapon of choice, but many types are available.

And...


The Pentagon has lost track of about 190,000 AK-47 assault rifles and pistols given to Iraqi security forces in 2004 and 2005, according to a new government report, raising fears that some of those weapons have fallen into the hands of insurgents fighting U.S. forces in Iraq.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/05/AR2007080501299.html

[pcosmar]

And...



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/05/AR2007080501299.html

And,,, yes there are a lot of stories.
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20031118&slug=iraqnotes18


Iraq Notebook
U.S. patrol kills 3 at gun market

BAGHDAD, Iraq — A U.S. patrol opened fire yesterday on a group of people in Baghdad's gun market, killing three and wounding four, after the soldiers apparently mistook the gunfire of customers testing weapons for an attack, an Iraqi police officer said.

The dead included an 11-year-old boy, hospital and police officials said.

In Iraq, it is legal for a family to own one gun for self-defense. That weapon is usually an AK-47 assault rifle. The gun market, however, is illegal and has been raided repeatedly by U.S. soldiers, who have tried to close it.

The incident began when a group was testing a gun in the market by firing it in the air as four U.S. armored vehicles passed by, said Maj. Ali Rykan of the Iraqi police.

The shooting took place at the Mreydi market, a 2-mile-long market known as a place where one can buy guns and thieves can hawk stolen goods.

The fact is AK 47 are quite common, and not unusual for the citizens of that country.

[tangent4ronpaul]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63649P20100407?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

U.S. military weighs renewing probe over Iraq video

(Reuters) - U.S. military lawyers are reviewing a video showing a 2007 attack by Apache helicopters that killed a dozen people in Baghdad, including two Reuters news staff, and that may prompt a new investigation into the incident, a military official said on Wednesday.

U.S.

"We're looking at a re-investigation because of a question of the rules of engagement. Were all the actions that are depicted on that video in parallel with the rules of engagement in effect at the time?" the military official said of the preliminary review under way by lawyers with the U.S. military's Central Command, which oversees the war in Iraq.

The lawyers would then make recommendations to military commanders, which could lead to the reopening of the investigation, said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "We're looking at a re-investigation... We're trying to figure out if that is warranted," the official said.

The classified military video showing the July 12, 2007, attack was made public on Monday by WikiLeaks, a group that promotes leaking to fight government and corporate corruption. It has been widely viewed around the world on the internet, with many who have seen the video shocked at the seeming indifference to human life shown by the helicopter fliers conducting the attack.

A U.S. Central Command spokesman said on Monday, after the video was made public by WikiLeaks, that an investigation of the incident shortly after it occurred found that U.S. forces were not aware of the presence of the news staffers and thought they were engaging armed insurgents.

[Jeros]

Not one part of the actions in this video are justifiable. No person on the ground, shown in the video, was engaging in hostile actions. In the first engagement, there were nothing but a bunch of dudes hanging out on the corner. They were not getting ready to participate in a firefight. They were casually socializing. Not one death in among this group was not murder.

I cant believe so many people on this forum are trying to justify an part of it. It is sickening.

[Danke]

I do not agree with any of the actions. This Apache was not in danger and was not being targeted nor was there a battle on the ground at this location.

The distance the bird was at was quite evident by the lack of interest by the targets and the length of time it took the rounds to hit their targets.
AKs pose no threat to one of these, even at closer range. and RPGs are also quite useless at this range with the counter measures available on the Apache.

This.

[idirtify]

Not one part of the actions in this video are justifiable. No person on the ground, shown in the video, was engaging in hostile actions. In the first engagement, there were nothing but a bunch of dudes hanging out on the corner. They were not getting ready to participate in a firefight. They were casually socializing. Not one death in among this group was not murder.

I cant believe so many people on this forum are trying to justify an part of it. It is sickening.

Dear Everybody,

I generally agree with all these kinds of criticisms. And while they are pretty much the vast majority of opinions here, no one is backing my suggestion to post the pics and identities of the perpetrators. Why don’t you want to know who they are? It seems all your criticisms are hollow if you don’t, since “who done it” would be the main concern of any domestic mass-murder – especially since these bastards’ identities are entirely knowable.

[pcosmar]

Dear Everybody,

I generally agree with all these kinds of criticisms. And while they are pretty much the vast majority of opinions here, no one is backing my suggestion to post the pics and identities of the perpetrators. Why don’t you want to know who they are? It seems all your criticisms are hollow if you don’t, since “who done it” would be the main concern of any domestic mass-murder – especially since these bastards’ identities are entirely knowable.

Give it a couple years. They will be Faux Snooze color commentators.

Watch for them on the "War for Americas Heartland" Special.
:(

[M House]

I'm pretty sure I'm not interested in seeing the face of the gunner with the raging boner. I do not wish to know he's happily married and the father of three.

[pcosmar]

Some pretty lame Propaganda .
If they had a story and a spin for this it would be all over the news and the front page of Google.

They Don't.
They just wish and hope it will go away.

[tpreitzel]

The real question on everyone's mind should be:

What other atrocities have been been committed by our government and then highly classified due to their "sensitive" nature? This tragedy illustrates why the ruse of classifying atrocities in the name of national security MUST stop. How do we distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate events worthy of classifying under the pretense of national security, or do we allow the government to hide from public scrutiny at all? Obviously, allowing officials to classify anything THEY deem worthy isn't working in the favor of the republic, but rather the favor of those officials needing to hide atrocities.

[DapperDan]

First time I've been utterly disgusted in awhile.

[wizardwatson]

Some pretty lame Propaganda .
If they had a story and a spin for this it would be all over the news and the front page of Google.

They Don't.
They just wish and hope it will go away.

As you alluded to in other posts, once you get past all the emotional stuff you tend to try to "figure out" what it is this means.

To me, I think this is simply what journalism is supposed to do. This video represents to me "real" news. News we're not allowed or supposed to see. That most people are desensitized to it, and our reaction to that, is precisely the purpose of journalism. It touches on the "rules of engagement", the death of children and other innocents, the death of insurgents that didn't really seem that "insurgent" at the time, the lack of honor in our soldiers, the concept of "mission creep" associated with the Iraq War, and countless other things.

I think this shocks us the most because its unfiltered truth. What journalism was meant to be. While its horrifying that most Americans appear to want to take the passive role of the apologists, its equally damning that they do not see the sacrifices made by these journalists, men, children, WikiLeaks employees, and others that made it possible for us to even catch a glimpse of this truth, in the face of Pentagon and CIA pressure that would rather see this truth buried like a child molester burying corpses in his crawl space.

[pcosmar]

The real question on everyone's mind should be:


That's not a question.
That is a nightmare that you don't even want to think about.
:(

[phill4paul]

Days later and still :mad: as hell.

[speciallyblend]

Dear Everybody,

I generally agree with all these kinds of criticisms. And while they are pretty much the vast majority of opinions here, no one is backing my suggestion to post the pics and identities of the perpetrators. Why don’t you want to know who they are? It seems all your criticisms are hollow if you don’t, since “who done it” would be the main concern of any domestic mass-murder – especially since these bastards’ identities are entirely knowable.

i think we all have those concerns and we all want accountablility but we are all realists aND ALREADY KNOW THE LAST THING OUR GOVERNMENT OR MILITARY will do is let us know the perpetrators, let alone admit to any wrong doing!!

[RoyalShock]

The video made it on ABC's 5:30 (central) news. They interviewed a retired 4-star general who said the first attack was justified, but he would not have authorized firing on the van.

I'm just the messenger.

[Vessol]

The video made it on ABC's 5:30 (central) news. They interviewed a retired 4-star general who said the first attack was justified, but he would not have authorized firing on the van.

I'm just the messenger.

I can understand that they misidentified them, happens all the time. I'll question them when they shout "They have an RPG! They're firing at us" they then go around the house and then see a bunch of guys milling around. Even then, it could be justified that they were insurgents and they were armed. Nothing justifies the pure enjoyment the soldiers got out of it, or what happened with the van. I have not read the Rules of Engagement in full, however I have doubts that it includes some unarmed chubby man helping a wounded man into his van. Infact I believe that violates the Second Geneva Convention in where medical transport, if even temporary, is offlimits as are wounded individuals. Nor can it be justified how the Higher Command refused to allow the children to be brought to a U.S Hospital and just dumped them at a Iraqi Hospital, saying they "didn't know how the children were wounded". And then covering it all up.

[GunnyFreedom]

I can understand that they misidentified them, happens all the time. I'll question them when they shout "They have an RPG! They're firing at us" they then go around the house and then see a bunch of guys milling around. Even then, it could be justified that they were insurgents and they were armed. Nothing justifies the pure enjoyment the soldiers got out of it, or what happened with the van. I have not read the Rules of Engagement in full, however I have doubts that it includes some unarmed chubby man helping a wounded man into his van. Infact I believe that violates the Second Geneva Convention in where medical transport, if even temporary, is offlimits as are wounded individuals. Nor can it be justified how the Higher Command refused to allow the children to be brought to a U.S Hospital and just dumped them at a Iraqi Hospital, saying they "didn't know how the children were wounded". And then covering it all up.

Didn't GWB make a big deal out of stating that we would not abide by the Geneva Conventions shortly after about the time this actually happened? :mad:

[Promontorium]

They had AKMs and RPGs. They were in a hot combat zone. Now I see no evidence that they weren't insurgents. The journalists could have just been following the insurgents for a story. The people didn't react to the Apaches, because the Apaches were very far away.

So the initial shooting was a depressing, but "justified" action. It wasn't murder. And honestly I'm pissed at Wiki Leaks for misleading me, and stirring up so much hatred, when they had a real story and went for a fantastical one.

The real story is the heartless bloodlust of these Apache pilots and gunners, and the policy of killing battlefield medical evacuators (even if the people shot were actual insurgents).

Those two issues should be enough to question. This is a meaningless conflict.

[Reason]

They had RPG's

Incorrect.

[pcosmar]

They had AKMs and RPGs. They were in a hot combat zone. Now I see no evidence that they weren't insurgents. The journalists could have just been following the insurgents for a story. The people didn't react to the Apaches, because the Apaches were very far away.

So the initial shooting was a depressing, but "justified" action. It wasn't murder. And honestly I'm pissed at Wiki Leaks for misleading me, and stirring up so much hatred, when they had a real story and went for a fantastical one.

The real story is the heartless bloodlust of these Apache pilots and gunners, and the policy of killing battlefield medical evacuators (even if the people shot were actual insurgents).

Those two issues should be enough to question.

AKs are in question but would not by unheard of among the general populations.
There were no RPGs.

And yes,
"This is a meaningless conflict."

[idirtify]

i think we all have those concerns and we all want accountablility but we are all realists aND ALREADY KNOW THE LAST THING OUR GOVERNMENT OR MILITARY will do is let us know the perpetrators, let alone admit to any wrong doing!!

I don’t know. I smell something funny. Considering all the expressions of anger here, why is none directed at the fact that the perps remain anonymous? Your explanation (that it’s because everyone knows it’s the last thing they will let us know) doesn’t cut it. There’s plenty of outrage against other things about the situation, and everyone knows they will not likely do anything about those things either (such as admit to wrong-doing, for example). So what’s up? Since when is an uphill battle an excuse for not speaking up around here? In contrast, that is normally the norm on LF!

[CUnknown]

I don’t know. I smell something funny. Considering all the expressions of anger here, why is none directed at the fact that the perps remain anonymous?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I would rather see the actual shooters go unpunished if it would lead to someone higher up taking the fall. But if no one goes down for this, I would be really angry, I agree.

The soliders could say they were just following orders, but seeing as they seemed to get a kick out of the whole thing, even that lame excuse wouldn't fly. Honestly, I think everyone involved in this horrible crime should be punished, from the shooters, all the way up the chain of command to anyone who had anything to do with it. Ultimately, Bush and Obama both need to face some sort of trouble, although I'm sure they won't.

[pcosmar]

although I'm sure they won't.

Yeah,
I don't expect much either.

http://www.chicagotypewriter.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/ollie-north.jpg

http://www.foxnews.com/images/235398/0_61_ollie_1.jpg

Except for things to get much worse.
:(

[phill4paul]

Yeah,
I don't expect much either.

http://www.chicagotypewriter.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/ollie-north.jpg

http://www.foxnews.com/images/235398/0_61_ollie_1.jpg

Except for things to get much worse.
:(


I just puked in my mouth. Not enough to spew and damage keys or monitor. Close though.

[pcosmar]

I just puked in my mouth. Not enough to spew and damage keys or monitor. Close though.
Sorry,
"Those that don't remember history,,,,,, "