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Anti Federalist
04-03-2010, 08:18 PM
Girl Arrested for Doodling Sues New York City

Updated: 10 hours 11 minutes ago
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Michelle Ruiz
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http://www.aolnews.com/crime/article/girl-arrested-for-doodling-on-school-desk-sues-new-york-city/19425428?icid=main|main|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww .aolnews.com%2Fcrime%2Farticle%2Fgirl-arrested-for-doodling-on-school-desk-sues-new-york-city%2F19425428

AOL News (April 3) -- When 12-year-old Alexa Gonzalez was caught doodling on her desk at Junior High School 190 in Queens, New York, she expected detention and an afternoon on desk-cleaning duty. Instead, she was arrested, led out of her school in handcuffs and detained at a local police precinct for hours, she said.

Two months after the incident, Gonzalez and her mother, Maraima Comacho, are suing the New York City Education Department and the New York Police Department for $1 million in damages, claiming excessive use of force and violation of the girl's rights in the ordeal, which Comacho has called a "nightmare."

"We want to stop this from happening to other young children in the future," the family's lawyer, Joseph Rosenthal, told the New York Daily News.

Gonzalez describes the ordeal as traumatizing and excessive, saying that after her Spanish teacher caught her doodling on her desk with erasable green marker, she was "physically dragged by a teacher and an assistant principal" to the dean's office, where school safety officials searched her by placing "their hands inside the rear and front pockets of her jeans." Police were then summoned to arrest her.

Gonzalez told the Daily News she broke down as she was led out of her school in handcuffs.

"I started crying, like, a lot," said said. "I made two little doodles. ... It could be easily erased. To put handcuffs on me is unnecessary."

The legal papers filed by Rosenthal said Comacho was not permitted to accompany her daughter to the precinct and was instead told to go home and wait for a call. The documents also said that Gonzalez was detained in "an enclosed room" at the precinct and handcuffed to a pole for more than two hours.

Video From Feb. 7

In February, New York City officials acknowledged Gonzalez's arrest was a mistake, with a City Education spokesman saying, "Based on what we've seen so far, this shouldn't have happened."

Police spokesman Paul Browne told the Daily News that officers should have used better judgment after being called by the school.

"Even when we're asked to make an arrest, common sense should prevail, and discretion used in deciding whether an arrest or handcuffs are really necessary," said police spokesman Paul Browne.

Now Comacho wants the City to pay for their mistake, to the tune of $1 million for the ordeal that led to her daughter's suspension and a trip to family court, where Gonzalez was given eight hours of community service and ordered to write a book report and an essay about what she learned from the experience.

The suit says officers "knew, or should have known" that Gonzalez had simply doodled with a "soluable, erasable marker."

What were the doodled words that led to her arrest?

"I love my friends Abby and Faith," Gonzalez said she wrote, adding "Lex was here. 2/1/10" and a smiley face.

nate895
04-03-2010, 08:41 PM
I think I doodled on the desk a couple of times at that age. I suppose the state should arrest me.

Icymudpuppy
04-03-2010, 08:44 PM
I did a lot more than just doodle on my desks. I also enjoyed examining the etchings of students past. This is insane.

MN Patriot
04-03-2010, 08:50 PM
Now Comacho wants the City to pay for their mistake, to the tune of $1 million for the ordeal that led to her daughter's suspension and a trip to family court, where Gonzalez was given eight hours of community service and ordered to write a book report and an essay about what she learned from the experience.


What I learned after being arrested and handcuffed for doodling on a desk at school.

I have learned that adults over-react to just about anything. I have learned that we are being programmed to be obedient robots for the government. We must always be fearful of the authorities. Some of us will be punished harshly for minor offense so that we will be used as an example for others.

phill4paul
04-03-2010, 09:20 PM
Government assumes responsibility. Government fucks up. Government is not liable, no employees are fired nor agencies disbanded and individual citizens pay out to the victims of the fuck up.
Wash rinse repeat.

Mach
04-03-2010, 09:55 PM
Computers are your friend. :D

http://schools.nyc.gov/SchoolPortals/28/Q190/default.htm

J.H.S. 190 Russell Sage

School Number:
190

Address:
68-17 AUSTIN STREET
QUEENS, NY11375

Phone:
718-830-4970

Fax:
718-830-3566

Student Enrollment:
894

Grades Served:
06, 07, 08, 09, SE

PRINCIPAL:
Marilyn Grant

Parent Coordinator:
Judy Hurwitz

PTA President:
Elena Terracciano

District Family Advocate Phone:
718-557-2618

slothman
04-03-2010, 11:24 PM
I hope the family wins and the people will elect a non-Republican to the mayor's office.

jclay2
04-04-2010, 12:30 AM
This is especially horrifying considering the subject nature of the doodles was similar to rainbows and butterflies. Maybe the teacher thought that the green color was a code for marijuana and "Abby and Faith" was a reference to other area drug dealers. Good Lord, what is this country coming to.

catdd
04-04-2010, 06:42 AM
So what's going on in schools these days?

Lafayette
04-04-2010, 06:51 AM
This is especially horrifying considering the subject nature of the doodles was similar to rainbows and butterflies. Maybe the teacher thought that the green color was a code for marijuana and "Abby and Faith" was a reference to other area drug dealers. Good Lord, what is this country coming to.

You have it all wrong, it was a terrorist attack plan, the rainbows where explosives, the butterflies were airplanes and Abby and Faith were members of her Al-Qaeda terrorist cell.

tangent4ronpaul
04-04-2010, 07:01 AM
So what's going on in schools these days?

It's NYC - home of the socialist "It takes a village" Hillary Clinton. What do you expect?

-t

catdd
04-04-2010, 07:16 AM
It's NYC - home of the socialist "It takes a village" Hillary Clinton. What do you expect?

-t

I hear you, but just last week they tazed a 10 yr old in an Indiana school.

j6p
04-05-2010, 06:19 AM
Where has parenting gone in the last few years? Between 15 year old girl getting touched in airport security to 12 year old doodling on desk. Not saying they derserve this. It's just where are the parents? Shouldnt they teach not to destory property, and not allow strangers to touch diffrent parts of there bodies.

Bern
04-05-2010, 06:33 AM
This story is so outrageous, I'm thinking there has to be more to the story that wasn't reported in that report. It couldn't really be that simple, could it?

Krugerrand
04-05-2010, 06:44 AM
I'm having a hard time reading today .... I started off reading this as she DROLLED on her desk. :D

I remember when I was in school the attitude was that the school system replaced the legal system. The principal's approach was all matters should be resolved in the school.

moostraks
04-05-2010, 07:19 AM
Where has parenting gone in the last few years? Between 15 year old girl getting touched in airport security to 12 year old doodling on desk. Not saying they derserve this. It's just where are the parents? Shouldnt they teach not to destory property, and not allow strangers to touch diffrent parts of there bodies.

The state has control of parenting unless you fly below the radar. There is an extent to what you can punish that relies upon the nature of a child being reasonably cooperative when any measure of discipline can be twisted into abuse by a CSB worker.

Case in point, in a particular county in Alabama they feel that not allowing television is abuse. Also by not dressing the children like their peers you are commiting abuse.

The peer orientation that the state is intent on pursuing for the benefit of the child results in egomaniacal monsters in some personality types. When a parent attempts to reign in certain negative behaviors it is very easy for intelligent children to play the system against them. No one wants to believe the children can be the monsters but somehow it must be the adults fault. It really depends on the child...

j6p
04-05-2010, 07:43 AM
Moon in some regards you are right, but most adults now days have no sense of parenting skils. It's parents who allow there children to act like monsters, because they act up if they dont get what they want. If you say it depends on the child, then you are in a way giving the child what he/she wants. It's up to the parents to teach whats right and wrong, regardless of what you or what the state does or doesnt do.

Stary Hickory
04-05-2010, 07:43 AM
They should have tazered her. She had it coming!

j6p
04-05-2010, 07:49 AM
They should have tazered her. She had it coming!

What the school did is disgusting. But why did she destroy property??? Thats what art class is for.

Stary Hickory
04-05-2010, 07:53 AM
What the school did is disgusting. But why did she destroy property??? Thats what art class is for.

It was an eraseable marker

j6p
04-05-2010, 08:14 AM
Just because it's erasebal marker, still does not make it right. Why didnt she have paper?? Stary do you have kids?

cjm
04-05-2010, 09:11 AM
This story is so outrageous, I'm thinking there has to be more to the story that wasn't reported in that report. It couldn't really be that simple, could it?

Right, it's not exactly that simple. Without knowing the details, this girl, her social group, or her family represented a threat to the "authority" of the school officials who called the police. What that threat was doesn't really matter, because if it was illegal she would have been arrested for that not this. In order to re-establish their authority over the girl, they went nuclear at the first technical infraction of the rules. If she were a teacher's pet or some other non-threat, she would have received detention or similar.

I have to give the school officials some credit though, at least they waited for a real violation of the rules instead of making one up. As unbelievable as "making one up" sounds, I've seen it where I personally knew the facts first hand maybe a dozen times -- including school officials completely fabricating a story and police officers lying in court.

This was about a perceived threat to power, and power doing what it does to safeguard that power.

moostraks
04-05-2010, 09:25 AM
Moon in some regards you are right, but most adults now days have no sense of parenting skils. It's parents who allow there children to act like monsters, because they act up if they dont get what they want. If you say it depends on the child, then you are in a way giving the child what he/she wants. It's up to the parents to teach whats right and wrong, regardless of what you or what the state does or doesnt do.

The state will take the child and place them in a foster home where the conditions are deplorable or they are subjected to exploitation. They can also seize and distribute the rest of the siblings of the child who is supposedly subjected to abuse. Your solution is very narrowminded and I am speaking from experience.

It depends on the willingness of the child to accept punishment and cooperate within boundaries. Some personality types when subjected to the extreme nature of sexuality and entitlement mentality bombarding them feel unjustly persecuted by parents who establish boundaries. When coupled with a conniving intellect they utilize the system to exploit their parents. The system once involved then demands the parents give in to the wants of the child or threatens to destroy the family.

My eldest is a problem child, she has 6 other siblings who are a delight and a pleasure. We raised all the children the same, until the state demanded the eldest get special priviledges because she wanted more and was creating a problem. We have been forced through the medical field, counseling, and juvenile justice systems. The situation is now coming to a close because she will no longer be able to hold us hostage to her demands once she turns 18, and she knows this fact.

She has had a gun to our heads due to the states right to seize the other children if we don't cooperate. She has a behavioral problem because she has figured out how to work the system and has a deep sense of greed and entitlement. None of the other children are like this. It is not the parents' problem, it is the child's problem. She picked this irrational idea up from media and school and has managed to reign terror on a family who still loves her but cannot trust her.

Until you have experienced what parents like we have do not attempt to think you know the answers. Fate has a way of teaching you the hard way and I do not wish the hell we have lived upon anyone!!!:(

j6p
04-05-2010, 11:13 AM
Not sure where you get the narrowminded from, but as i said before what the school did was disgusting. The school should of handeled this better. Now your putting words in my mouth. This girl is almost a freaking teenager and she should of known better, to destory property.

j6p
04-05-2010, 11:15 AM
Just because you have a problem child does not mean that your not responsible, for a little bit of it.

John Taylor
04-05-2010, 11:17 AM
Not sure where you get the narrowminded from, but as i said before what the school did was disgusting. The school should of handeled this better. Now your putting words in my mouth. This girl is almost a freaking teenager and she should of known better, to destory property.

It is insane that this girl was arrested for this though. I can understand calling her parents, or even having a police officer issue her a ticket and a court date for the sordid Cool Hand Luke crime of "destruction of municipal property", but to arrest her? WTH.

j6p
04-05-2010, 11:24 AM
It is insane that this girl was arrested for this though. I can understand calling her parents, or even having a police officer issue her a ticket and a court date for the sordid Cool Hand Luke crime of "destruction of municipal property", but to arrest her? WTH.

They should have called the parents. Oh i see now, you dont think people have a right to protest a debate on public property. But now you are saying munciple property. But still this girl is almost a teenager.

j6p
04-05-2010, 11:25 AM
and you think it's ok to destory property

payme_rick
04-05-2010, 11:36 AM
I see what you're saying, j6p, but the issue at hand is the most important here: she doodled on a desk... send her to detention, make her write "I won't doodble on my desk again" on the chalk-board 700 times (or on every desk in the classroom), CALL the parents... but DO NOT arrest a 12 year old girl for doodling on a desk... I mean is that what jails are for? "What are you in for? steal an iPod from Best Buy? Slice someone's tires?"... "Uhm, not, I doodled on my school-desk"...

How about this: fire the teacher for having a student with enough time on their hands to doodle on a desk?

Romulus
04-05-2010, 11:38 AM
The state will take the child and place them in a foster home where the conditions are deplorable or they are subjected to exploitation. They can also seize and distribute the rest of the siblings of the child who is supposedly subjected to abuse. Your solution is very narrowminded and I am speaking from experience.

It depends on the willingness of the child to accept punishment and cooperate within boundaries. Some personality types when subjected to the extreme nature of sexuality and entitlement mentality bombarding them feel unjustly persecuted by parents who establish boundaries. When coupled with a conniving intellect they utilize the system to exploit their parents. The system once involved then demands the parents give in to the wants of the child or threatens to destroy the family.

My eldest is a problem child, she has 6 other siblings who are a delight and a pleasure. We raised all the children the same, until the state demanded the eldest get special priviledges because she wanted more and was creating a problem. We have been forced through the medical field, counseling, and juvenile justice systems. The situation is now coming to a close because she will no longer be able to hold us hostage to her demands once she turns 18, and she knows this fact.

She has had a gun to our heads due to the states right to seize the other children if we don't cooperate. She has a behavioral problem because she has figured out how to work the system and has a deep sense of greed and entitlement. None of the other children are like this. It is not the parents' problem, it is the child's problem. She picked this irrational idea up from media and school and has managed to reign terror on a family who still loves her but cannot trust her.

Until you have experienced what parents like we have do not attempt to think you know the answers. Fate has a way of teaching you the hard way and I do not wish the hell we have lived upon anyone!!!:(

Thanks for sharing moostraks. Now I know what Tony Soprano really meant when he said (regarding parenting) about their daughter "If she finds out we are powerless, we are f$%%kd!"

haaaylee
04-05-2010, 11:40 AM
Where has parenting gone in the last few years? Between 15 year old girl getting touched in airport security to 12 year old doodling on desk. Not saying they derserve this. It's just where are the parents? Shouldnt they teach not to destory property, and not allow strangers to touch diffrent parts of there bodies.

Wait, are you actually blaming the parent for their child being touched in the airport!?!!

i guess all rape victims wouldn't have gotten raped if they had just had better parents.

MelissaWV
04-05-2010, 11:43 AM
No, it's not okay to "destroy property."

Of course, she didn't destroy it. She drew on it. She should have been responsible for restoring it to its original state, with the additional punitive damage of maybe cleaning the other desks of ink/scribbles. Her parents could have rightfully been made aware of this, and it would be important to let them know why their little darling was late from school (because she was cleaning) or to arrange for a time when she could do the detention.

Handcuffs? Is that necessary? Even "real" criminals are not always handcuffed. For certain crimes, they are allowed to come in on their own and respond to the charges. Instead, though, this girl is dragged away like she might strike the officers and cause serious bodily injury to them.

From a general population standpoint, I would also submit that this is a really piss poor use of police time. Is there some reason that the teacher, principal, and parents cannot handle punishing this girl? Is there any reason to believe that if she'd been told to go to the principal's office, she would have taken hostages or set fire to her desk? I simply don't get it.

It's an overreaction unless there is a *LOT* more to this story than meets the eye.

MelissaWV
04-05-2010, 11:45 AM
Wait, are you actually blaming the parent for their child being touched in the airport!?!!

i guess all rape victims wouldn't have gotten raped if they had just had better parents.

I don't get this one either. We heard about it, which means someone reported it, no? So it sounds like the "kid" (debatable; 15 is not really a "kid" in my book) did the right thing and talked to someone about what they felt was inappropriate. I'm unfamiliar with the story, but I'm confused as to what the parent was supposed to have done, short of punching the TSA agent in the face or something. That probably couldn't even have been done, because they pull you aside to do pat-downs and other searches.

Romulus
04-05-2010, 11:46 AM
got to love tyrannical apologists.

John Taylor
04-05-2010, 11:48 AM
They should have called the parents. Oh i see now, you dont think people have a right to protest a debate on public property. But now you are saying munciple property. But still this girl is almost a teenager.

Uh, yeah, they should have called her parents.

No one ever said that someone doesn't have a right to protest a debate on public property. That doesn't mean that one can disrupt it however. I listened to the audio of what was originally stated to be a mere "question", and it did start out as that, but then continued, after each candidate answered the question for a couple minutes each, into a tirade. The guy you're talking about was trying to monopolize that meeting.

I'm saying, they shouldn't have arrested her. You say differently. Ok Reinhard Heydrich,

j6p
04-05-2010, 12:06 PM
John you put words in peoples mouths. If parents are responsible for there childs safety. So to say they push the parents aside for pat downs in questionable at best. The parents are usually standing right there. Now being apogist, not. As i said the school handed it the wrong way. Since were now being unresponsible parents, now lets call her a child since she doent know rights and wrong. She should have cleaned it up. Calling the cops was not a right thing for the school to do.

j6p
04-05-2010, 12:10 PM
Reinhard Heydrich??? You would have liked submitting to this guy. You dont belive in civil disobeance.

JosephTheLibertarian
04-05-2010, 12:16 PM
I cut myself so that they would send me home. :)

MelissaWV
04-05-2010, 12:33 PM
John you put words in peoples mouths. If parents are responsible for there childs safety. So to say they push the parents aside for pat downs in questionable at best. The parents are usually standing right there. Now being apogist, not. As i said the school handed it the wrong way. Since were now being unresponsible parents, now lets call her a child since she doent know rights and wrong. She should have cleaned it up. Calling the cops was not a right thing for the school to do.

One more time... in English? :confused:

Anti Federalist
04-05-2010, 12:46 PM
The state will take the child and place them in a foster home where the conditions are deplorable or they are subjected to exploitation. They can also seize and distribute the rest of the siblings of the child who is supposedly subjected to abuse. Your solution is very narrowminded and I am speaking from experience.

It depends on the willingness of the child to accept punishment and cooperate within boundaries. Some personality types when subjected to the extreme nature of sexuality and entitlement mentality bombarding them feel unjustly persecuted by parents who establish boundaries. When coupled with a conniving intellect they utilize the system to exploit their parents. The system once involved then demands the parents give in to the wants of the child or threatens to destroy the family.

My eldest is a problem child, she has 6 other siblings who are a delight and a pleasure. We raised all the children the same, until the state demanded the eldest get special priviledges because she wanted more and was creating a problem. We have been forced through the medical field, counseling, and juvenile justice systems. The situation is now coming to a close because she will no longer be able to hold us hostage to her demands once she turns 18, and she knows this fact.

She has had a gun to our heads due to the states right to seize the other children if we don't cooperate. She has a behavioral problem because she has figured out how to work the system and has a deep sense of greed and entitlement. None of the other children are like this. It is not the parents' problem, it is the child's problem. She picked this irrational idea up from media and school and has managed to reign terror on a family who still loves her but cannot trust her.

Until you have experienced what parents like we have do not attempt to think you know the answers. Fate has a way of teaching you the hard way and I do not wish the hell we have lived upon anyone!!!:(

What a horrible story. :(

Hope everything works out well for the rest of the children.

And for you.

Krugerrand
04-05-2010, 01:35 PM
That school needs some of those naked body scanners so they can be sure the students aren't hiding any contraband (aka washable markers) by their unmentionables.

To save on shipping, with that order they should get some tasers to subdue any violent types that refuse to surrender their contraband.

John Taylor
04-05-2010, 01:39 PM
John you put words in peoples mouths. If parents are responsible for there childs safety. So to say they push the parents aside for pat downs in questionable at best. The parents are usually standing right there. Now being apogist, not. As i said the school handed it the wrong way. Since were now being unresponsible parents, now lets call her a child since she doent know rights and wrong. She should have cleaned it up. Calling the cops was not a right thing for the school to do.

Parents ARE responsible for their own children.

haaaylee
04-05-2010, 02:47 PM
One more time... in English? :confused:

seeing "there" instead of "their" when j6p writes is starting to driving me insane . . .

Sandman33
04-05-2010, 02:59 PM
In regards to parenting. One must take into consideration that many parents today did not have parents themselves.

Many of the parents are single parents. Many of them work. Leaving little time for actual parenting. And really no family structure to foster morals or ideals.

If todays parents didn't have parents themselves....how can you expect them to be any good at it? How can you expect them to produce stable families when they never had one themselves?

The destruction of the family is most likely the single largest factor in the rise of the police nanny state. And I for one do not believe it to be an accident. People are becoming hedonistic animals. Evolution is being steered in the direction of decline.

angelatc
04-05-2010, 03:09 PM
Where has parenting gone in the last few years? Between 15 year old girl getting touched in airport security to 12 year old doodling on desk. Not saying they derserve this. It's just where are the parents? Shouldnt they teach not to destory property, and not allow strangers to touch diffrent parts of there bodies.

You have nothing to indicate that her parents wouldn't have punished her if the situation hadn't been blown entirely out of proportion. Who in their right mind calls the police when a kid doodles on a desk?

It actually puts the parent in an awkward spot. We want to support the administrators, but priorities can't help but shift in the face of such extremism.

angelatc
04-05-2010, 03:15 PM
They should have called the parents. Oh i see now, you dont think people have a right to protest a debate on public property. But now you are saying munciple property. But still this girl is almost a teenager.

I have an 11.5 year old. He has brand new dinosaur sheets and sleeps with a stuffed animal sometimes when he's away from home. He's probably a lot closer to her age than the image you're conjecturing.

If the school called me and told me he was misbehaving, he'd be punished. Hopefully twice - once there, and again here at home.

But insisting that a kid should go to jail for doodling on a school desk is absurd.

nbhadja
04-05-2010, 04:04 PM
I used to carve stuff in my desk. I bet they would give me the death penalty.

moostraks
04-05-2010, 04:17 PM
What a horrible story. :(

Hope everything works out well for the rest of the children.

And for you.

thanks for the sympathy. As the time draws nearer her 18th birthday the world someone seems a little lighter. She is developing a sound hatred for the state,though, which is greater than any lecture I could have given on the subject. She will have two roads to choose from and I hope for her sake she picks the right one.

We have sheltered the other children to the best of our ability which in turn makes the state think even more we are hiding something. We have had many a hard decision to make and I would not wish anyone to suffer the pain we have these past few years. The fear is indescribable...

moostraks
04-05-2010, 04:19 PM
Thanks for sharing moostraks. Now I know what Tony Soprano really meant when he said (regarding parenting) about their daughter "If she finds out we are powerless, we are f$%%kd!"

:oYour welcome. If I can save one person who might walk our path one day, then my time is well spent. Too true about what Tony Soprano said...LOL!

JosephTheLibertarian
04-05-2010, 08:35 PM
I used to leave a pin on my chair @ class change. I wonder if anyone got pinched

j6p
04-06-2010, 07:17 AM
seeing "there" instead of "their" when j6p writes is starting to driving me insane . . .

How mature

j6p
04-06-2010, 07:18 AM
Parents ARE responsible for their own children.

Before you were claiming, parents are not responsible.

j6p
04-06-2010, 07:20 AM
In regards to parenting. One must take into consideration that many parents today did not have parents themselves.

Many of the parents are single parents. Many of them work. Leaving little time for actual parenting. And really no family structure to foster morals or ideals.

If todays parents didn't have parents themselves....how can you expect them to be any good at it? How can you expect them to produce stable families when they never had one themselves?

The destruction of the family is most likely the single largest factor in the rise of the police nanny state. And I for one do not believe it to be an accident. People are becoming hedonistic animals. Evolution is being steered in the direction of decline.

You are blowing this out of context, this girl has parents.

j6p
04-06-2010, 07:22 AM
Wait, are you actually blaming the parent for their child being touched in the airport!?!!

i guess all rape victims wouldn't have gotten raped if they had just had better parents.

Again, how mature.

angelatc
04-06-2010, 07:27 AM
In regards to parenting. One must take into consideration that many parents today did not have parents themselves.




And one must take into consideration that kids are kids. They do dumb stuff, and they do misbehave.

To imply that doodling on a desk is symptomatic of a weak family unit is laughable.

Freedom 4 all
04-06-2010, 07:53 AM
It's getting to the point I can't tell real stories from satire. This is satire right ... right?

MelissaWV
04-06-2010, 08:40 AM
John you put words in peoples mouths. If parents are responsible for there childs safety. So to say they push the parents aside for pat downs in questionable at best. The parents are usually standing right there. Now being apogist, not. As i said the school handed it the wrong way. Since were now being unresponsible parents, now lets call her a child since she doent know rights and wrong. She should have cleaned it up. Calling the cops was not a right thing for the school to do.

I was the one who started the criticism of language use.

In all fairness, I really cannot decipher the quoted paragraph fully. The sentence fragments, misspellings, incorrect words, and generally :confused: structure muddles it, and I was trying to follow the argument. Effective communication is important, and asking for clarification is not "immature."

j6p
04-09-2010, 06:42 AM
I was the one who started the criticism of language use.

In all fairness, I really cannot decipher the quoted paragraph fully. The sentence fragments, misspellings, incorrect words, and generally :confused: structure muddles it, and I was trying to follow the argument. Effective communication is important, and asking for clarification is not "immature."

Eh no one asked for clarification. Everyone was throwing around imature posts.

j6p
04-09-2010, 06:43 AM
It's not like you made typing mistakes before

MelissaWV
04-09-2010, 07:05 AM
Eh no one asked for clarification. Everyone was throwing around imature posts.

I did ask for clarification. I did not recognize your post as English, as it lacked the sentence structure and spelling necessary to decipher it as such. Perhaps you have a valid, insightful point to make, but I can't understand it.


It's not like you made typing mistakes before

I don't think I am prone to making mistakes that obscure the meanings of my posts. The quoted post, for instance, says the opposite of what I think you intended to say ("It's not like you haven't made typing mistakes before."), but I have no real way of determining what the actual intent was. It just tends to leave everything a bit :confused:

You could take it personally, or you could ignore it, or you could choose to take a secondary glance at your posts to determine whether or not they convey the meaning you intend. :)

j6p
04-09-2010, 08:01 AM
You know the sentence you wrote. (It just tends to leave everything a bit) Sounds like an obscure post to me.

Krugerrand
04-09-2010, 08:07 AM
You know the sentence you wrote. (It just tends to leave everything a bit) Sounds like an obscure post to me.

Pardon my observation, I suggest you take one of Melissa's last two suggestions. It isn't worth getting upset over.


...
You could take it personally, or you could ignore it, or you could choose to take a secondary glance at your posts to determine whether or not they convey the meaning you intend. :)

j6p
04-09-2010, 08:09 AM
Just pointing out her obscure post.

MelissaWV
04-09-2010, 08:48 AM
I apologize for not spelling out the word "confused" and, instead, utilizing an emoticon (: confused : ). I also couldn't tell that was your objection until the other poster pointed it out.

Effective communication is a vanishing talent.

"god hlp us al" :rolleyes:

If you would rather argue about it than actually clarify what you meant (which you could have done several times over by now), then the point was probably not that great.

Have a great day, doll.

Brian in Maryland
04-09-2010, 09:42 AM
One word, HOME SCHOOl!:)

Don't give a bunch of goons authority over your children.:mad:

j6p
04-09-2010, 01:07 PM
People should take responsibility for there own kids. Melissa your a troll.

JeNNiF00F00
04-09-2010, 01:20 PM
Kids have been drawing on desks forever, its nothing new. Ive seen old desks that were carved into. If the girl got busted, she should have gotten detention for a week, and they should have made her clean every desktop in her grade after school. The parent should have been called as well with explanation of why the child was being held after school.

Oh, and I got busted doing this in 2nd grade and I got paddled. I didn't do it again...until highschool. lol

Anti Federalist
04-09-2010, 01:23 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2636482&postcount=11


I apologize for not spelling out the word "confused" and, instead, utilizing an emoticon (: confused : ). I also couldn't tell that was your objection until the other poster pointed it out.

Effective communication is a vanishing talent.

"god hlp us al" :rolleyes:

If you would rather argue about it than actually clarify what you meant (which you could have done several times over by now), then the point was probably not that great.

Have a great day, doll.

JosephTheLibertarian
04-09-2010, 01:51 PM
Kids have been drawing on desks forever, its nothing new. Ive seen old desks that were carved into. If the girl got busted, she should have gotten detention for a week, and they should have made her clean every desktop in her grade after school. The parent should have been called as well with explanation of why the child was being held after school.

Oh, and I got busted doing this in 2nd grade and I got paddled. I didn't do it again...until highschool. lol

paddled? That wasn't allowed in any school I attended. If any teacher paddled my kid I'd paddle his face

MelissaWV
04-09-2010, 01:52 PM
People should take responsibility for there their own kids. Melissa your you're a troll.

You still never took the time to clarify the post in question. All of this time available, and I still have no idea what you were saying.

The accusation of trolling is interesting, as your first contribution to the thread was to place blame on parents of a teenager for that teenager being fondled by TSA representatives. You also stated this youngster "destroyed" property by writing on it with a marker.

Perhaps that should be revisited:


Of course, she didn't destroy it. She drew on it. She should have been responsible for restoring it to its original state, with the additional punitive damage of maybe cleaning the other desks of ink/scribbles. Her parents could have rightfully been made aware of this, and it would be important to let them know why their little darling was late from school (because she was cleaning) or to arrange for a time when she could do the detention.

The assertion that "problem kids" are purely the fault of parents is as narrow-minded as the notion that they are absolutely only the fault of the schools. There is plenty of blame to go around, but in this case, it falls more heavily on the idiots who decided it was wise to whip out the cuffs and treat someone like a felon for scribbling on a desk. Discretion was absent from the entire scene.

Moreover, "problem kids" do not always turn into "problem adults." Various people in this very thread have posted admissions of far more "criminal" activity, but they're doing just fine. The school overreacted, and overusing "where are the parents?" just helps it fall on deaf ears. You can't control your children 100% of the time. When they make a bad call, they should be punished accordingly, not carted off in cuffs for coloring on a desk.

Unfortunately, the way she was treated is absolutely preparing her for adulthood, where she could be shot or shocked for failing to obey commands, and where blame will be shifted everywhere but to the people who are actually responsible for the behaviors involved. On one side, she is being coddled and held absolutely blameless by some because of the outcome. On the other, the police are shifting blame around and hunting for good excuses as to why this happened. In the end, she was not appropriately punished for what she did, and the police will not face appropriate consequences.

JeNNiF00F00
04-09-2010, 02:47 PM
paddled? That wasn't allowed in any school I attended. If any teacher paddled my kid I'd paddle his face

Thats because soon after they stopped paddling kids at school and now look at what most of them have become. I got paddled almost on a daily basis, just for daydreaming or talking. Can you imagine that happening today?

JosephTheLibertarian
04-09-2010, 02:48 PM
Thats because soon after they stopped paddling kids at school and now look at what most of them have become. I got paddled almost on a daily basis, just for daydreaming or talking. Can you imagine that happening today?

No lol. I think it's more of a statism thing than it is a disciplinary thing :)

moostraks
04-09-2010, 03:28 PM
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2636482&postcount=11

lol...:D

Anti Federalist
04-09-2010, 03:42 PM
lol...:D

I still chuckle at all the types described:

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/index.htm

Sandman33
04-09-2010, 04:59 PM
paddled? That wasn't allowed in any school I attended. If any teacher paddled my kid I'd paddle his face

It was normal when I was in gradeschool and started being disallowed when I hit middleschool. And I can tell you one thing for sure.

Class was much more organized and when the teacher spoke kids listened.

JosephTheLibertarian
04-09-2010, 06:33 PM
It was normal when I was in gradeschool and started being disallowed when I hit middleschool. And I can tell you one thing for sure.

Class was much more organized and when the teacher spoke kids listened.

because they were intimidated. that's not a healthy environment

osan
04-09-2010, 06:50 PM
Computers are your friend. :D

http://schools.nyc.gov/SchoolPortals/28/Q190/default.htm (http://schools.nyc.gov/SchoolPortals/28/Q190/default.htm)

J.H.S. 190 Russell Sage

Address:
68-17 AUSTIN STREET
QUEENS, NY11375

Just up the road from where I used to live @ 82-67 Austin St. I know that school.

This sort of overreaction has become the standard. It is ridiculous.

osan
04-09-2010, 06:52 PM
I hear you, but just last week they tazed a 10 yr old in an Indiana school.

Are you serious? Was the child lunging at them with a straight razor? A gun? Please tell me they were doing something genuinely dangerous.

angelatc
04-09-2010, 06:57 PM
paddled? That wasn't allowed in any school I attended. If any teacher paddled my kid I'd paddle his face

It's funny how the people that don't have kids tend to have the "best" ideas about how to raise them.

Sadly, it's the kids with parents just like this that actually need paddling. People that hyperventilate at the thought of another adult correcting their kids rarely actually correct their kids.

If I got paddled at school, I'd damned sure get another one when I got home. Teachers today aren't allowed to punish bad behavior. But there's no denying that the schools were better before corporal punishment was banned.

osan
04-09-2010, 06:58 PM
I'm having a hard time reading today .... I started off reading this as she DROLLED on her desk. :D

I'm sure she'd have been arrested and perhaps even beaten or raped by police had she drolled on the desk.

angelatc
04-09-2010, 06:58 PM
because they were intimidated. that's not a healthy environment

It actually is a very healthy environment. Children need limits, and consequences. Young children especially need immediate consequences.

osan
04-09-2010, 07:02 PM
Where has parenting gone in the last few years? Between 15 year old girl getting touched in airport security to 12 year old doodling on desk. Not saying they derserve this. It's just where are the parents? Shouldnt they teach not to destory property, and not allow strangers to touch diffrent parts of there bodies.

How do you know the parents are lacking? Kids are kids and sometimes do the wrong things no matter what the parents teach. That is the way kids are, oftentimes. As to destruction of property - where do you get that? The marker was erasable. Even if not, you make the child clean it up and serve detention. If the desk is "destroyed", you charge the parents for replacement. That's how it is done with books. Why not desks? For pity's sake, hauling the kid off in cuffs? That is insane. Hell, I'm tempted to call it evil.

paperplane
04-09-2010, 07:05 PM
whats next?? jail time for putting boogers under the chair?? damn

osan
04-09-2010, 07:17 PM
It depends on the willingness of the child to accept punishment and cooperate within boundaries. Some personality types when subjected to the extreme nature of sexuality and entitlement mentality bombarding them feel unjustly persecuted by parents who establish boundaries. When coupled with a conniving intellect they utilize the system to exploit their parents. The system once involved then demands the parents give in to the wants of the child or threatens to destroy the family.

You bet. An acquaintance - a lawyer in Michigan, single father - had a 12 year old son who wanted to attend a party on a school night where alcohol was to be served. Dad rightly said "no way". Pissy little fucker called cops and told them his father was sexually abusing him. Cops arrived in minutes, arrested dad and hauled the brat off despite his instantaneous recantation. The little shit was too smart for his own good and to be honest I think he earned what he got, which was 18 months in "the system" as his father fought tooth and nail to get him back and stay out of prison. Personally, I'd have let the system have the little bastard.

A great standard response to kids who don't want to obey reasonable orders is "there's the door. Don't like the rules? Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out." Some kids are just little fuckers - it's in the personality type and there is little to be done to break them of it. I have found that they must often be handled with chain mail gloves or they will run amok within seconds. That's just the way some people are.


My eldest is a problem child, she has 6 other siblings who are a delight and a pleasure. We raised all the children the same, until the state demanded the eldest get special priviledges because she wanted more and was creating a problem. We have been forced through the medical field, counseling, and juvenile justice systems. The situation is now coming to a close because she will no longer be able to hold us hostage to her demands once she turns 18, and she knows this fact.

I'd show her the door and I don't give a shit what age she is. But of course this is not my child, so it would be far easier for me. Have you offered her the choice of toeing the line or leaving?


She has had a gun to our heads due to the states right to seize the other children if we don't cooperate. She has a behavioral problem because she has figured out how to work the system and has a deep sense of greed and entitlement. None of the other children are like this. It is not the parents' problem, it is the child's problem. She picked this irrational idea up from media and school and has managed to reign terror on a family who still loves her but cannot trust her.

You need to find another state in which to live and leave that one behind. No joke. You have other children whose lives ought not be disrupted by this kind of crap. Lose one or lose them all - a shitty choice to make, I agree, but a choice in any event.


Until you have experienced what parents like we have do not attempt to think you know the answers. Fate has a way of teaching you the hard way and I do not wish the hell we have lived upon anyone!!!:(

My girls were perfect. I was abundantly fortunate to have them instead of some hellion.

Best wishes and good luck to you. I'd kick the eldest out the moment she turned 18, if not sooner. I'm way too old and way too tired to put up with crap like that from anyone. My wife would straighten her out in about 12 minutes. :)

JosephTheLibertarian
04-09-2010, 07:41 PM
It actually is a very healthy environment. Children need limits, and consequences. Young children especially need immediate consequences.

I don't believe in spanking. Talking, hugs, and love, that's my belief. the key is to raise the child right before you start seeing bad signs: hyperactivity, rebellious, hypertension, aggression... the root causes are bad parenting / or a lack thereof

paperplane
04-09-2010, 08:19 PM
I don't believe in spanking. Talking, hugs, and love, that's my belief. the key is to raise the child right before you start seeing bad signs: hyperactivity, rebellious, hypertension, aggression... the root causes are bad parenting / or a lack thereof

i agree 100% on that... that will create trust in the relationship and more openness between the parent(s) and child. :cool:

JeNNiF00F00
04-09-2010, 09:11 PM
It was normal when I was in gradeschool and started being disallowed when I hit middleschool. And I can tell you one thing for sure.

Class was much more organized and when the teacher spoke kids listened.

Yup!

angelatc
04-09-2010, 09:13 PM
I don't believe in spanking. Talking, hugs, and love, that's my belief. the key is to raise the child right before you start seeing bad signs: hyperactivity, rebellious, hypertension, aggression... the root causes are bad parenting / or a lack thereof

Snicker - You've been soooo brainwashed. I used to be you. Just wait until you actually have one.

The little fuckers will play you like a fiddle.

TruckinMike
04-09-2010, 09:39 PM
Whoever spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
-- Proverbs 13:24

TMike

JosephTheLibertarian
04-09-2010, 09:46 PM
Snicker - You've been soooo brainwashed. I used to be you. Just wait until you actually have one.

The little fuckers will play you like a fiddle.

lol. it can't be that bad if you raise them right. why must they be hit? I never liked it.

JeNNiF00F00
04-09-2010, 10:22 PM
Snicker - You've been soooo brainwashed. I used to be you. Just wait until you actually have one.

The little fuckers will play you like a fiddle.

Yep. I will say that I was a little demon child. A manipulator. I deserved every spanking I got.

JeNNiF00F00
04-09-2010, 10:24 PM
I never liked it.

Thats the point!

JosephTheLibertarian
04-09-2010, 10:30 PM
Yep. I will say that I was a little demon child. A manipulator. I deserved every spanking I got.

I feel different. I was hit and I didn't like it. I am going on experience here :) Why can't you see eye to eye with a child?

JosephTheLibertarian
04-09-2010, 11:08 PM
Well, maybe I'll elaborate. I was beaten with the end of a broom handle. I wouldn't say it was the highlight of my life ;) and I don't feel like a better man because of it.

MelissaWV
04-10-2010, 08:59 AM
I will say that other things happened at the same time as removing paddling from schools. You used to be able to tell a disruptive student to gtfo. Now the teachers often bring the class to a halt to help those who are behind, or acting out, and so on. It bored me to tears when I was in school. Send them out, call their parents, send them home. Of course, you can't "send them home" now, because there's usually no one home to send them to. :rolleyes:

JosephTheLibertarian
04-10-2010, 09:09 AM
I will say that other things happened at the same time as removing paddling from schools. You used to be able to tell a disruptive student to gtfo. Now the teachers often bring the class to a halt to help those who are behind, or acting out, and so on. It bored me to tears when I was in school. Send them out, call their parents, send them home. Of course, you can't "send them home" now, because there's usually no one home to send them to. :rolleyes:

lol. I would just sit in detention for the entire day. One of my schools was abusive, though. They would grab the back of your neck while your head was on the desk and would insult you "youre a effin loser, you will never be anything, etc" Do you advocate such things? I wasn't hit by them, but there was a lot of verbal abuse. And they would grab your neck and get in real close as they say very nasty things to you.

That was a school for kids with behavioral problems. cos I was expelled from every school in my town. yea, pity me :( lol

Hitting only made me resentful towards family.

This why I said I don't want to hit my future children. Hey, maybe I'm naive, don't know yet.

TheEvilDetector
04-10-2010, 09:59 AM
IMO:

The appropriate response should have been to simply to document the markings on the desk and require that the parents (as the legal guardians of the minor) organise removal of any markings on the table at their own expense.

The parents subsequently have the discretion of choosing the method of punishment (if any) for their child.

Furthermore, given that the activity did not involve violence, was quite limited in its scope, did not involve risk of flight, did involve a young child, the use of handcuffs was excessive.

Simply a document detailing the act should have been forwarded to the parents, in order that the desk is returned to original condition or replaced if necessary.

If the girl was not willing to stop her behaviour after meeting with school supervisors, she could be temporarily prevented from attending class to prevent further damage, until arrival of her parents.

Once parents arrive to meet with the accuser (the school) and the accused (the child), it would be expected that the parents follow up by communicating with the child (at the place/time of their choosing)
to ensure this activity does not repeat itself (provided of course, that the parents are satisfied the school has identified the right individual namely the child).

If this does not prove to be fruitful the school, in order to protect its property would be within rights to require the student leave it to seek education elsewhere.

angelatc
04-10-2010, 10:45 AM
lol. it can't be that bad if you raise them right. why must they be hit? I never liked it.

It's not supposed to be pleasant, and you definitely weren't supposed to like it. "If you raise them right..." LOL! Words only spoken by the childless.

LOL! It's like you honestly think they won't want to misbehave if you just explain why their behavior is wrong or dangerous.

angelatc
04-10-2010, 10:47 AM
IMO:

The appropriate response should have been to simply to document the markings on the desk and require that the parents (as the legal guardians of the minor) organise removal of any markings on the table at their own expense.

No. The appropriate response is to make her get a wet towel and wash all the desks in the room, preferably while her classmates get to watch.

Carson
04-10-2010, 10:51 AM
I don't think I ever thought graffiti was a doodle before and maybe not still.

MelissaWV
04-10-2010, 11:01 AM
lol. I would just sit in detention for the entire day. One of my schools was abusive, though. They would grab the back of your neck while your head was on the desk and would insult you "youre a effin loser, you will never be anything, etc" Do you advocate such things? I wasn't hit by them, but there was a lot of verbal abuse. And they would grab your neck and get in real close as they say very nasty things to you.

That was a school for kids with behavioral problems. cos I was expelled from every school in my town. yea, pity me :( lol

Hitting only made me resentful towards family.

This why I said I don't want to hit my future children. Hey, maybe I'm naive, don't know yet.

I think that experience clouds everyone's views on this issue. It seems like if you speak to 100 different people who say it's okay to hit their kids from time to time, you will find the entire spectrum: hitting only in cases of emergency to hitting for each and every "offense." I used to believe that people who said it was "okay" were mostly towards the latter, the abusive end of the spectrum. What you should realize, though, is that children lack the ability to reason at young ages. This means that if something's REALLY critical it might need to be punctuated by striking which is appropriate to their age, size, and so on. We're talking about a swat on the butt, for example. The way I figure it, there are situations where allowing the child to go on and do what they were about to do was going to injure them, sometimes incredibly seriously.

"Don't run into the street." A child may not have the foresight to figure out why they shouldn't run into the street. If the child somehow slips away and starts making a mad dash for the street, and you catch up to them, a smack may help connect running into the street with pain, and it's certainly more safe than letting them learn the lesson by getting hit by a car.

Of course, the other end of that spectrum comes when abusive parents hit and worse for every little thing. A lot of really awful stories are out there where a parent will strike or shake a baby for soiling itself. A lot of those children die.

Frankly, I don't think that giving teachers the right to paddle children is the answer, no. Parenting is the parents' responsibility. Now, if the child wants to be disruptive, it's the teacher's job to teach, so they should be well within their rights to have that child removed. If something so awful is going on that the police need to be called (or, in another kind of society, the school's security detail), then so be it, but I still don't think scribbling on a desk qualifies. :)

JeNNiF00F00
04-10-2010, 11:28 AM
I feel different. I was hit and I didn't like it. I am going on experience here :) Why can't you see eye to eye with a child?

Because a child is a child, and they need to be taught. Sometimes, they don't pay attention, or listen and they need something that grabs their attention. Sometimes a good talking to works, sometimes it doesnt. I was spanked too, I didn't like it however I was smart enough NOT to do it again and learned that it was not okay, and WHO was in control. I also learned to respect those around me.

I know someone that doesnt spank her child and he is a rotten little kid. Has no manners, and does what he wants. She is very "liberal" in her views, and treats her child like an equal. Well, that doesnt work. Hes under 4, and thinks hes a little adult. Believe me, it does not work. I'll be willing to bet that hes in jail by the time hes 12. He has no boundries, and helps himself to whatever is in your purse. Whats yours is his. Yep, kid will be in jail by the time hes 12.

TheEvilDetector
04-10-2010, 11:29 AM
No. The appropriate response is to make her get a wet towel and wash all the desks in the room, preferably while her classmates get to watch.

IMO, unless the parents have explicitly signed away on a set of summary punishments (which would for the sake of the point I'm making include the type of punishment you describe)
the school can inflict on their child based on their say so alone (which is after all that you have when no evidence is presented to you that the act occurred and that the act was by the
hand of your child before punishment is administered), I would have to disagree with you.

Presumed Guilty / Summary Punishment mindset is bad for adults and its also bad for children.

JosephTheLibertarian
04-10-2010, 11:30 AM
Because a child is a child, and they need to be taught. Sometimes, they don't pay attention, or listen and they need something that grabs their attention. Sometimes a good talking to works, sometimes it doesnt. I was spanked too, I didn't like it however I was smart enough NOT to do it again and learned that it was not okay, and WHO was in control. I also learned to respect those around me.

I know someone that doesnt spank her child and he is a rotten little kid. Has no manners, and does what he wants. She is very "liberal" in her views, and treats her child like an equal. Well, that doesnt work. Hes under 4, and thinks hes a little adult. Believe me, it does not work. I'll be willing to bet that hes in jail by the time hes 12. He has no boundries, and helps himself to whatever is in your purse. Whats yours is his. Yep, kid will be in jail by the time hes 12.

lol. Maybe some other factors played a part? Grounding doesn't work? Taking away privileges doesn't work? I was never that way :D

JeNNiF00F00
04-10-2010, 11:32 AM
IMO, unless the parents have explicitly signed away on a set of summary punishments the school can inflict on their child based on their say so alone (which is after all that you have when no evidence is presented to you that the act occurred and that the act was by the hand of your child before punishment is administered), I would have to disagree with you.

The schools duty is to TEACH. The school could have taught a better lesson by making the child clean the desks, instead of having her arrested. This is the problem with todays kids. No one wants anyone giving discipline to their kids eventhough the kids are being taken care of most of the day by the state. The kids learn nothing as a result, and end up being horrible products of society.

TheEvilDetector
04-10-2010, 11:38 AM
Because a child is a child, and they need to be taught. Sometimes, they don't pay attention, or listen and they need something that grabs their attention. Sometimes a good talking to works, sometimes it doesnt. I was spanked too, I didn't like it however I was smart enough NOT to do it again and learned that it was not okay, and WHO was in control. I also learned to respect those around me.

I know someone that doesnt spank her child and he is a rotten little kid. Has no manners, and does what he wants. She is very "liberal" in her views, and treats her child like an equal. Well, that doesnt work. Hes under 4, and thinks hes a little adult. Believe me, it does not work. I'll be willing to bet that hes in jail by the time hes 12. He has no boundries, and helps himself to whatever is in your purse. Whats yours is his. Yep, kid will be in jail by the time hes 12.

Adults have the purse strings and control of the residence thus the disciplining options are several that do not involve physical striking while ensuring that basic necessities to life are still provided to meet basic standard of care parents have towards their children:

Removal of various Luxuries eg. TV, Computer, Mobile.
Reduction of Gifting eg. Birthdays, New Years, Xmas.
Reduction of Visitation by Friends
Reduction of Pocket Money

These changes and others like them, would have to be graduated up and down in response to positive/negative behaviour.

JeNNiF00F00
04-10-2010, 11:39 AM
lol. Maybe some other factors played a part? Grounding doesn't work? Taking away privileges doesn't work? I was never that way :D

A good smack in the butt and a talking to usually cleared it up for me. Of course my parents worked as a team, so there was no way I could win. Grounding and privileges? What privileges? We had no cable tv until I was about 8 or 9 years old, the tv we did have was 13 inches, and the best toy I had was a piece of plastic that was about 25 foot long that was fun to slide down in the summer. If I acted up at the dinner table I was sent to my room without supper. I mean really. Go hungry one time and you wont do it again, I promise. :)

JeNNiF00F00
04-10-2010, 11:42 AM
Adults have the purse strings and control of the residence thus the disciplining options are several that do not involve physical striking while ensuring that basic necessities to life are still provided to meet basic standard of care parents have towards their children:

Removal of various Luxuries eg. TV, Computer, Mobile.
Reduction of Gifting eg. Birthdays, New Years, Xmas.
Reduction of Visitation by Friends
Reduction of Pocket Money

These changes and others like them, would have to be graduated up and down in response to positive/negative behaviour.

Well see, my children wouldnt have TV, or Mobile, or pocket money unless they earned it by working. Computer would be limited anyways. Gifting wouldn't be like most kids have it today. Ive seen one of my friends drop 3k dollars for a birthday at disney and then come back home and say they need to buy a present for her kid. lolz Whatever.

TheEvilDetector
04-10-2010, 11:43 AM
The schools duty is to TEACH. The school could have taught a better lesson by making the child clean the desks, instead of having her arrested. This is the problem with todays kids. No one wants anyone giving discipline to their kids eventhough the kids are being taken care of most of the day by the state. The kids learn nothing as a result, and end up being horrible products of society.

School should not have the right to force the child to perform unpaid cleaning services without explicit consent of the parents regardless of the leading circumstances.

Also, I think it is the parents responsibility to teach discipline to the children and only they can delegate such authority to a 3rd party and thus no 3rd party should able to assume this responsibility without express consent
specifying what punishments are acceptable to the parents.

TheEvilDetector
04-10-2010, 11:44 AM
Well see, my children wouldnt have TV, or Mobile, or pocket money unless they earned it by working. Computer would be limited anyways. Gifting wouldn't be like most kids have it today. Ive seen one of my friends drop 3k dollars for a birthday at disney and then come back home and say they need to buy a present for her kid. lolz Whatever.

In your case, you would take the approach of rewarding good behaviour, which if performed correctly, would starve negative behaviour out of motivators.

Its not logically consistent or moral in my view to hit children until an arbitrary age at which point you begin to respect their right not to be hit by you
(or maybe you're scared that a retaliatory strike may do some damage in which case you're a coward).

JosephTheLibertarian
04-10-2010, 11:44 AM
A good smack in the butt and a talking to usually cleared it up for me. Of course my parents worked as a team, so there was no way I could win. Grounding and privileges? What privileges? We had no cable tv until I was about 8 or 9 years old, the tv we did have was 13 inches, and the best toy I had was a piece of plastic that was about 25 foot long that was fun to slide down in the summer. If I acted up at the dinner table I was sent to my room without supper. I mean really. Go hungry one time and you wont do it again, I promise. :)

lol. Wow. My parents was never around, I was left @ my grandparents, so I was left to do whatever I wanted as long as I didn't get them mad at me. If my uncle/gpa/mom's bf/aunt got mad at me, I would get hit, and I distinctly recall my uncle punching me right in the stomach...could...not....breath lol not sure why, though.

so you were never resentful? or maybe you "grew out" of the rebellious phase? lol

I guess.... I just take it easy. Like the eagles song, "take it easy" lol

JeNNiF00F00
04-10-2010, 11:50 AM
lol. Wow. My parents was never around, I was left @ my grandparents, so I was left to do whatever I wanted as long as I didn't get them mad at me. If my uncle/gpa/mom's bf/aunt got mad at me, I would get hit, and I distinctly recall my uncle punching me right in the stomach...could...not....breath lol not sure why, though.

so you were never resentful? or maybe you "grew out" of the rebellious phase? lol

I guess.... I just take it easy. Like the eagles song, "take it easy" lol

Yeah I see the problem. No I wasn't resentful. I respected my parents, and I had structure. Which is very important.

JosephTheLibertarian
04-10-2010, 11:53 AM
Yeah I see the problem. No I wasn't resentful. I respected my parents, and I had structure. Which is very important.

See what problem?

You can't always be expected to respect your parent. What if he/she is a total jackass? Or a dumbass? What then?

Not everything is universal, Jenn. Everyone has their own perspective that they bring to the table.

JeNNiF00F00
04-10-2010, 11:58 AM
School should not have the right to force the child to perform unpaid cleaning services without explicit consent of the parents regardless of the leading circumstances.

Also, I think it is the parents responsibility to teach discipline to the children and only they can delegate such authority to a 3rd party and thus no 3rd party should able to assume this responsibility without express consent
specifying what punishments are acceptable to the parents.

Thats bullshit. The child helped create the problem. It would show the child that what they are doing is not easy to clean up. I would support the school 100% if my child were busted drawing on desks, and because my child new that I would support the school 100% on this, they would know that it was unacceptable. Its not about cleaning because the school doesn't want to pay someone. Its about teaching the child that there are consequences for their actions, and to respect property.

JeNNiF00F00
04-10-2010, 12:02 PM
See what problem?

You can't always be expected to respect your parent. What if he/she is a total jackass? Or a dumbass? What then?

Not everything is universal, Jenn. Everyone has their own perspective that they bring to the table.

Thats the problem YOU have. Not I. Since I was brought up in a structured home, I learned to respect my parents, and didnt resent them for dropping me off at my grandparents house, or shuffled around. I just know that what my parents did, worked. Sometimes it involved a spanking, sometimes it involved hard work, and sometimes it only involved a good talking to. Not one of those times, did I ever feel that my parents were a jackass, or dumbass. Somewhere along the lines you didn't learn to respect your parents because possibly your parents didn't demand respect or give you proper structure and guidance. If they did you never would think that about your parents.

JosephTheLibertarian
04-10-2010, 12:06 PM
Thats the problem YOU have. Not I. Since I was brought up in a structured home, I learned to respect my parents, and didnt resent them for dropping me off at my grandparents house, or shuffled around. I just know that what my parents did, worked. Sometimes it involved a spanking, sometimes it involved hard work, and sometimes it only involved a good talking to. Not one of those times, did I ever feel that my parents were a jackass, or dumbass. Somewhere along the lines you didn't learn to respect your parents because possibly your parents didn't demand respect or give you proper structure and guidance. If they did you never would think that about your parents.

Do you think parents like that deserve respect? If your mom abandoned you for her bf, would you still respect her? If your dad was a cokehead deadbeat, would you still respect him? Would you be nice to them and want to patch things up? Or would you say "eff off" and not bother with them anymore?

I ask because some people believe that you should respect your parents no matter what. Well, hehe, I think that's a load of bull :)

JeNNiF00F00
04-10-2010, 12:09 PM
Do you think parents like that deserve respect? If your mom abandoned you for her bf, would you still respect her? If your dad was a cokehead deadbeat, would you still respect him? Would you be nice to them and want to patch things up? Or would you say "eff off" and not bother with them anymore?

I ask because some people believe that you should respect your parents no matter what. Well, hehe, I think that's a load of bull :)

Thats what im saying. The problem is you didn't have structure. If you would have had some form of structure you would have had respect for your parents. I'm not saying that you should respect your parents no matter what. Im saying its the parents job to demand respect, and by doing that they need to set up an environment that allows the kid to learn how to be a productive member of society. This cannot be done if there is no structure and discipline in the home.

JeNNiF00F00
04-10-2010, 12:15 PM
double post

MelissaWV
04-10-2010, 12:31 PM
Thats what im saying. The problem is you didn't have structure. If you would have had some form of structure you would have had respect for your parents. I'm not saying that you should respect your parents no matter what. Im saying its the parents job to demand respect, and by doing that they need to set up an environment that allows the kid to learn how to be a productive member of society. This cannot be done if there is no structure and discipline in the home.

I had a bunch of every single thing you've talked about, and I'm sorry but I still hate my parents. Their ideas were twisted, but if you ask them about it they will tell you that they were instilling values. They demanded and demanded and demanded, and that might have been a major contributing factor to why I fled at the first opportunity to finish raising myself.

They didn't drop me off anywhere or shuffle me around. "Spankings" devolved into just plain hitting, and for completely wrong reasons. Things that should have led to discussions instead became stressful and physically dangerous situations. My parents will still insist, however, that they were just "spankings."

Their idea of hard work involved doing all sorts of odd jobs at the ballet studio my sister insisted on attending. They couldn't afford the tuition, so while I was still little we were there scrubbing and cleaning out changing rooms, bathrooms, and studios. If I did a good job, I got a Slurpee.

The good talking to portion of things never really went my way. To this day, my entire family speaks at a volume that is actually painful to me. I speak firmly but do not raise my voice. They were never able to do that, and they were never able to present their point to me logically. If they felt they were losing, they had to yell. They would insist this is still a "good talking to."

This is my point about perception. I am not saying that you have a warped definition of all of those terms, but I am saying that people have varied definitions of them overall. I wasn't in a cliche abusive home, but I know my parents were in the wrong on a lot of things, and yes... that makes them dumbasses. They played favorites, they hit or yelled when they could have just talked, they made me feel unwelcome in my own skin.

It's a major league derail by this point, but please realize that the same approach is not going to work for everyone. Your parents could have raised me the same way they raised you, doing everything the same way, and I would turn out your total opposite.

JosephTheLibertarian
04-10-2010, 12:32 PM
Thats what im saying. The problem is you didn't have structure. If you would have had some form of structure you would have had respect for your parents. I'm not saying that you should respect your parents no matter what. Im saying its the parents job to demand respect, and by doing that they need to set up an environment that allows the kid to learn how to be a productive member of society. This cannot be done if there is no structure and discipline in the home.

Okay. Well, Jenn. I respect your position, I just think that IF ANYONE SHOULD SPANK A CHILD it should be the parent[s]. It's only right IF it has to be done. Why let a complete strange beat on your kids? That thought just kinda pisses me off :cool:

angelatc
04-10-2010, 01:29 PM
Okay. Well, Jenn. I respect your position, I just think that IF ANYONE SHOULD SPANK A CHILD it should be the parent[s]. It's only right IF it has to be done. Why let a complete strange beat on your kids? That thought just kinda pisses me off :cool:

Oh, as a parent, my eyes just roll when I hear that, "How dare you discipline my child?" thing.

I told my kids that their teachers absolutely had my permission to spank them. The schools didn't actually allow spanking any more, but my kids didn't need to know that.

I like the way JtL interchanges the word spanking with the word beating, too. How awfully clever. :rolleyes:

I have very little interest in child-focused parenting. It's a product of the 80's. I'm more old school, where the children have very little rights accompanied by quite a few responsibilities. I don't care too much how they feel about being punished, and I'm certainly not interested in why they're "acting out." My main objective is to remind them that bad behavior will not be tolerated, at home, at the store, at Grandma's, or at school.

If they have a teacher that doesn't like them, they need to deal with it. If my neighbor complains about something they did, they go apologize. I don't outwardly care what really happened. As long as they're kids, it's their responsibility to fix it.

angelatc
04-10-2010, 01:42 PM
IMO, unless the parents have explicitly signed away on a set of summary punishments (which would for the sake of the point I'm making include the type of punishment you describe)
the school can inflict on their child based on their say so alone (which is after all that you have when no evidence is presented to you that the act occurred and that the act was by the
hand of your child before punishment is administered), I would have to disagree with you.

Presumed Guilty / Summary Punishment mindset is bad for adults and its also bad for children.

LOL! Heavens forbid we actually use techniques that work. And my all means, let's make huge mountains out of tiny little molehills. Lets blow everything entirely out of proportion to ensure that the child's punishment is shared among everybody forced to endure mandatory participation. When a child misbehaves, it takes an entire village to consult on the punishment.

By the time you and yours get around to punishing her, she'll be in college.

She drew on a desk. The teacher punishes her with a little elbow grease combined with a subtle dose of public humiliation. The horror!!! It's child abuse! How dare they punish my child!

My kid gets in trouble at school for talking . All the time. He swears he's never at fault. Funny how that works.

It is sooo funny to get parenting advice from kids who don't have kids yet. I'd be shuddering if I didn't know that actually having a kid can and will change your perceptions.

JosephTheLibertarian
04-10-2010, 01:43 PM
Oh, as a parent, my eyes just roll when I hear that, "How dare you discipline my child?" thing.

I told my kids that their teachers absolutely had my permission to spank them. The schools didn't actually allow spanking any more, but my kids didn't need to know that.

I like the way JtL interchanges the word spanking with the word beating, too. How awfully clever. :rolleyes:

I have very little interest in child-focused parenting. It's a product of the 80's. I'm more old school, where the children have very little rights accompanied by quite a few responsibilities. I don't care too much how they feel about being punished, and I'm certainly not interested in why they're "acting out." My main objective is to remind them that bad behavior will not be tolerated, at home, at the store, at Grandma's, or at school.

If they have a teacher that doesn't like them, they need to deal with it. If my neighbor complains about something they did, they go apologize. I don't outwardly care what really happened. As long as they're kids, it's their responsibility to fix it.

I just have one thing to say. Your ebay link doesn't work. :cool:

angelatc
04-10-2010, 01:46 PM
I just have one thing to say. Your ebay link doesn't work. :cool:

Thanks! It might because I don't have anything listed, but I'll certainly check it.

TheEvilDetector
04-10-2010, 01:58 PM
LOL! Heavens forbid we actually use techniques that work. Just because something works doesn't mean it should be used strictly speaking. So this is a poor argument in its own right.


And my all means, let's make huge mountains out of tiny little molehills. Lets blow everything entirely out of proportion to ensure that the child's punishment is shared among everybody forced to endure mandatory participation. When a child misbehaves, it takes an entire village to consult on the punishment.

By the time you and yours get around to punishing her, she'll be in college.


I think you're exaggerating here, which is ironic given the context of your paragraph.



She drew on a desk. The teacher punishes her with a little elbow grease combined with a subtle dose of public humiliation. The horror!!! It's child abuse! How dare they punish my child!


It's fine if you have authorised it. However personally, I would not consent to public humiliation as a form of punishment.

This type of punishment can continue on punishing long after the original act occurred, thus it would likely exceed bounds of what might be considered reasonable punishment.



My kid gets in trouble at school for talking . All the time. He swears he's never at fault. Funny how that works.


What point are you making here?


It is sooo funny to get parenting advice from kids who don't have kids yet. I'd be shuddering if I didn't know that actually having a kid can and will change your perceptions.

Circular reasoning = fail.

JosephTheLibertarian
04-10-2010, 01:59 PM
Thanks! It might because I don't have anything listed, but I'll certainly check it.

You have a nice feedback count. How long did it take you to amass that much?

JeNNiF00F00
04-10-2010, 01:59 PM
I had a bunch of every single thing you've talked about, and I'm sorry but I still hate my parents. Their ideas were twisted, but if you ask them about it they will tell you that they were instilling values. They demanded and demanded and demanded, and that might have been a major contributing factor to why I fled at the first opportunity to finish raising myself.

They didn't drop me off anywhere or shuffle me around. "Spankings" devolved into just plain hitting, and for completely wrong reasons. Things that should have led to discussions instead became stressful and physically dangerous situations. My parents will still insist, however, that they were just "spankings."

Their idea of hard work involved doing all sorts of odd jobs at the ballet studio my sister insisted on attending. They couldn't afford the tuition, so while I was still little we were there scrubbing and cleaning out changing rooms, bathrooms, and studios. If I did a good job, I got a Slurpee.

The good talking to portion of things never really went my way. To this day, my entire family speaks at a volume that is actually painful to me. I speak firmly but do not raise my voice. They were never able to do that, and they were never able to present their point to me logically. If they felt they were losing, they had to yell. They would insist this is still a "good talking to."

This is my point about perception. I am not saying that you have a warped definition of all of those terms, but I am saying that people have varied definitions of them overall. I wasn't in a cliche abusive home, but I know my parents were in the wrong on a lot of things, and yes... that makes them dumbasses. They played favorites, they hit or yelled when they could have just talked, they made me feel unwelcome in my own skin.

It's a major league derail by this point, but please realize that the same approach is not going to work for everyone. Your parents could have raised me the same way they raised you, doing everything the same way, and I would turn out your total opposite.

Yeah thats pretty fucked up Melissa. I was never forced to work for my sister to get dancing lessons. However I was forced to work for myself if I wanted something for myself that was out of their budget. I dont resent it. Punishment was only given if I deserved it. And believe me I deserved it many times. At the same time, I knew my parents loved me very much. Its a fine line.

TheEvilDetector
04-10-2010, 02:02 PM
Thats bullshit.


What specifically?


The child helped create the problem. It would show the child that what they are doing is not easy to clean up. I would support the school 100% if my child were busted drawing on desks, and because my child new that I would support the school 100% on this, they would know that it was unacceptable. Its not about cleaning because the school doesn't want to pay someone. Its about teaching the child that there are consequences for their actions, and to respect property.

I can't say I disagree with anything in particular other than to say, its probably worthwhile checking to see if the accusations against your child have some foundation.

You can't assume that teachers/other students are impartial and objective at all times.

As I mentioned before I support the right of parents to delegate disciplinary responsibilities and punishments to others.

I think that parents should communicate clearly what they consider acceptable for their child as far as disciplinary punishments go in an explicit fashion.

To do otherwise would be abdicating parental responsibilities for the welfare of their child.

Remember it is the parent not the state who should dictate how the child is brought up, the only exception to this being the protection of the child from severe neglect or abuse where friends/family are unable or unwilling to assist.