Why Work?

[Elwar]

I was considering creating a website asking the question "Why Work?" with a salary calculator that showed how much you would be making if on the government dole as compared to current salary.

I've checked a few sites and for some states you can get about $25,000 worth of benefits a year if you're not working. This includes free housing, free health care, free food, free cell phones, etc.

Would it be a good idea to encourage people to quit ala Atlas Shrugged and bring down the machine even quicker? The more government subsidies they give, the more people will quit.

People can quit and have more time to work on campaigning against their current representatives.

[Mahkato]

I take it you plan to include state (and maybe county) handouts as well?

[MelissaWV]

I know why I work, but from a purely financial perspective there are a lot of people who'd be better off not working. I think the site could be cleverly done and is a good idea.

[JenaS62]

I was considering creating a website asking the question "Why Work?" with a salary calculator that showed how much you would be making if on the government dole as compared to current salary.

I've checked a few sites and for some states you can get about $25,000 worth of benefits a year if you're not working. This includes free housing, free health care, free food, free cell phones, etc.

.


Doesn't that only apply to people who habitually don't work? A friend of mine was terminated a few years ago from a 20 year long job and when she went to apply for assistance after being unemployed for a year - she was declined any assistance because of what she used to make. :rolleyes:

[Bruno]

Interesting concept!

I was on food stamps once for a month about 13 years ago. I picked up a few more shifts waiting tables, and came in at $13 over the threshold. The prior month I had received about $285 in food stamps. That month, I didn't qualify and received nothing.

Lesson learned to some : Work less

[Elwar]

I take it you plan to include state (and maybe county) handouts as well?

I would...Hawaii was the most (they're a fairly socialist state)

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

I think it's a great concept.

[Erazmus]

I think the biggest problem being on the dole is the dependency and the tracking. The government is looking for bigger and more intrusive ways of tracking people's purchases that are on the dole (and off, for that matter). This would make it difficult to stockpile anything, I would think. Also, I don't think I could live with myself for taking other people's money.

For example, California has a paid family leave plan which employers are forced to offer you when you have a child. It pays roughly 75% (If I remember correctly) of your normal pay (you must use all vacation time first before it becomes active). When my wife gave birth to our first child, I took the time off, but I didn't take any of the money, as I didn't fill out the forms. I had about 3 weeks of vacation time and then took a week of nonpay vacation. There were two reasons for this. 1) I just couldn't take money from others like that. 2) It made your kids medical records public if you filled the forms for the dole payout (there's always a catch). Of course as it turns out, it looks like everyone's medical records are public now anyways.

With the above being said, I can't fault people who do take the money. If the state is making staying at home more lucrative than going to work, and continues penalizing the workers -what choice will they have? You always get more of what you subsidize. I would just keep in mind the two things above, the tracking and the dependency.

;)

[torchbearer]

if everyone got on the dole, this cage will break.
do this site, i'm interested in seeing what louisiana looks like

[Elwar]

I think the biggest problem being on the dole is the dependency and the tracking. The government is looking for bigger and more intrusive ways of tracking people's purchases that are on the dole (and off, for that matter). This would make it difficult to stockpile anything, I would think. Also, I don't think I could live with myself for taking other people's money.


I get a twisted pleasure out of being a libertarian and taking money from the government. God knows I pay them enough.

As for their tracking...if I didn't have a job I'd definitely be out mowing people's lawns for cash, fixing someone's computer for cash, etc.

All the while working on either a computer program or some research project that I could eventually sell and make a buttload of money when the timing is better, or in a country with better taxes.

[torchbearer]

the easiest way to end the welfare state is for everyone to stop producing.
atlas shrugged is where the logical end comes when the takers severely outnumber the producers.
so, why wait until you are working for nothing?

[Brian4Liberty]

Doesn't that only apply to people who habitually don't work? A friend of mine was terminated a few years ago from a 20 year long job and when she went to apply for assistance after being unemployed for a year - she was declined any assistance because of what she used to make. :rolleyes:

She doesn't know the angles. There are two ways for easy entry into the system. Either you are born into it, and know how to use it, or your situation becomes so bad you end up living at the homeless shelter (then they take you seriously).

[Bruehound]

I absolutely love this concept. Crash the system to ashes.

TPTB invited this, I encourage you to do it.

[DamianTV]

I was considering creating a website asking the question "Why Work?" with a salary calculator that showed how much you would be making if on the government dole as compared to current salary.

I've checked a few sites and for some states you can get about $25,000 worth of benefits a year if you're not working. This includes free housing, free health care, free food, free cell phones, etc.

Would it be a good idea to encourage people to quit ala Atlas Shrugged and bring down the machine even quicker? The more government subsidies they give, the more people will quit.

People can quit and have more time to work on campaigning against their current representatives.

Get some sponsors first. I mean just simple web ads on google or something, as you stand to make a fair to good ammt of money by doing this. If you make it, it will go viral.

[torchbearer]

She doesn't know the angles. There are two ways for easy entry into the system. Either you are born into it, and know how to use it, or your situation becomes so bad you end up living at the homeless shelter (then they take you seriously).

i'm thinkin about doing this, at least as a social experiment.
what you wrote is an aboslute truth.

My first step in my project will be to find someone who is already in the system, and learn the ropes from them.
my fiance's sister is in the system. she can teach me the ropes, and then we can add that info to the "why work?" site for the louisiana section.
i really like this idea.

[torchbearer]

//

[erowe1]

Doesn't that only apply to people who habitually don't work? A friend of mine was terminated a few years ago from a 20 year long job and when she went to apply for assistance after being unemployed for a year - she was declined any assistance because of what she used to make. :rolleyes:

I can't speak for your friend. But are you sure it was based on her previous salary and not on what she had in savings? Granted, those things are related. But they're not the same. And if it was just the latter, then she could have liquidated her savings and put it in gold or something without there being a record of that anywhere, so that on paper she'd be poor enough.

[squarepusher]

so is this the vote democrat thread?

[torchbearer]

so is this the vote democrat thread?

its the choose to be leeched upon the rest of your life, or everyone jump on this fucking raft so we can sink it quickly thread.

[torchbearer]

Louisiana has a website to help you find what services you qualify for:
https://acess-info.dss.state.la.us/Public/en_US/ISS_addHOHPersonInfoPage.do?__o3rpu=External_UserA pplication_homePage.do

Looks like I qualify for food stamps.

[Andrew-Austin]

I was considering creating a website asking the question "Why Work?" with a salary calculator that showed how much you would be making if on the government dole as compared to current salary.

I've checked a few sites and for some states you can get about $25,000 worth of benefits a year if you're not working. This includes free housing, free health care, free food, free cell phones, etc.

Would it be a good idea to encourage people to quit ala Atlas Shrugged and bring down the machine even quicker? The more government subsidies they give, the more people will quit.

People can quit and have more time to work on campaigning against their current representatives.

What happens to all these people who are on the dole once "the system" goes down?

[torchbearer]

What happens to all these people who are on the dole once "the system" goes down?

some may begin rioting and looting.
their life of theft will become more direct than indirect.
If they had the will and skill for honest living, they could make it own their own.
otherwise, they will eventually end up on the wrong end of a firearm.

[Erazmus]

What happens to all these people who are on the dole once "the system" goes down?

A whole lot of bad things, which is why I warned in a previous post about dependency. :cool:

[idirtify]

Originally Posted by Andrew-Austin
What happens to all these people who are on the dole once "the system" goes down?


A whole lot of bad things, which is why I warned in a previous post about dependency. :cool:

Exactly! Let me elaborate:

I understand the concept of trying to speed up the fall, but I don’t think its supporters have really considered what it really means/includes. The concept is a cop out AND the worst kind of fallacious logic. If it truly had any merit, what are any of you doing here? Every effort spent on this forum is in pursuit of the opposite goal. If you really think it’s wise to try to make the system crash quicker, you would simply join the enemy, become republicrat neocons and socialists, fight against libertarianism, defend wars of aggression, and try to merge god and state. IOW if you really believe in the concept, why are you doing things like supporting Ron Paul, arguing against the drug war, or asserting your rights? The concept is pure fatalistic reasoning, anathema to liberty, initiating aggression and advocating general misery. How many of you have criticized Obama and Bush and the gov for doing this very thing?

Look…if you know anything, the last thing you want is for the system to fail. The reality of “failure” includes massive damage and aggression and misery and suffering and death and dismay…you know, all the scenarios we worry about on this board. So think about it. Are you certain YOU would survive a crash? If so, I think you think it’s closer than it is and would be easier to endure than it would. Would your family survive?

I think the last thing we here want to do is advocate destruction. Now can we move on from this short episode of temporary insanity?

[torchbearer]

Originally Posted by Andrew-Austin
What happens to all these people who are on the dole once "the system" goes down?



Exactly! Let me elaborate:

I understand the concept of trying to speed up the fall, but I don’t think its supporters have really considered what it really means/includes. The concept is a cop out AND the worst kind of fallacious logic. If it truly had any merit, what are any of you doing here? Every effort spent on this forum is in pursuit of the opposite goal. If you really think it’s wise to try to make the system crash quicker, you would simply join the enemy, become republicrat neocons and socialists, fight against libertarianism, defend wars of aggression, and try to merge god and state. IOW if you really believe in the concept, why are you doing things like supporting Ron Paul, arguing against the drug war, or asserting your rights? The concept is pure fatalistic reasoning, anathema to liberty, initiating aggression and advocating general misery. How many of you have criticized Obama and Bush and the gov for doing this very thing?

Look…if you know anything, the last thing you want is for the system to fail. The reality of “failure” includes massive damage and aggression and misery and suffering and death and dismay…you know, all the scenarios we worry about on this board. So think about it. Are you certain YOU would survive a crash? If so, I think you think it’s closer than it is and would be easier to endure than it would. Would your family survive?

I think the last thing we here want to do is advocate destruction. Now can we move on from this short episode of temporary insanity?

You can work on both ends at the same time. add weight to the sinking ship and trying to replace the captain.
we want this system to fail. it is the first thing on the list. people won't wake up until it has failed.

[purplechoe]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2636/3988315960_f5fb982947_o.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qNh1YlA0afI/SPvxNYKHr7I/AAAAAAAAA-A/9l38H_PWbRw/s400/taxpayer_owner.gif

[idirtify]

You can work on both ends at the same time. add weight to the sinking ship and trying to replace the captain.
we want this system to fail. it is the first thing on the list. people won't wake up until it has failed.

No, you can’t. Once the ship sinks, game over. With all due respect, you don’t know what you are advocating. I think you think by saying you want “this system” to fail, you mean “big corrupt gov” and their ilk. Please understand the BIG difference between the two. Jumping on the Welfare bandwagon is NOT any kind of solution for liberty.

BTW, this forum is proof that lots of people are waking up every day. For more direct evidence, read this thread:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=238398
“How did you become a libertarian?”

[torchbearer]

No, you can’t. Once the ship sinks, game over. With all due respect, you don’t know what you are advocating. I think you think by saying you want “this system” to fail, you mean “big corrupt gov” and their ilk. Please understand the BIG difference between the two. Jumping on the Welfare bandwagon is NOT any kind of solution for liberty.

BTW, this forum is proof that lots of people are waking up every day. For more direct evidence, read this thread:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=238398
“How did you become a libertarian?”

I do know what I advocate. The system to fail.
Let me say it again for clarity.
I want the welfare system to fail. I want our slavery to end.
If you are afraid, build a bunker and hide inside.

[revolutionisnow]

Sounds like a good site. You could feature this video on it.

YouTube - Good Intentions 1of3 Introduction and Public Schools with Walter Williams (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1r-r6iLBEI&)

[Bucjason]

I was considering creating a website asking the question "Why Work?" with a salary calculator that showed how much you would be making if on the government dole as compared to current salary.

I've checked a few sites and for some states you can get about $25,000 worth of benefits a year if you're not working. This includes free housing, free health care, free food, free cell phones, etc.

Would it be a good idea to encourage people to quit ala Atlas Shrugged and bring down the machine even quicker? The more government subsidies they give, the more people will quit.

People can quit and have more time to work on campaigning against their current representatives.

This is actually why socialism never works. Eventually you DO reach that tipping point where people realize it's more beneficial just to sit on thier ass and collect thier entitlements. You think anyone enjoys working ?? Hell no , we do it as a means for survival, not for any "greater good" . People will never work if thier only motivation is a "greater good" . We always do instintively whats in our OWN best interest ,and we're usually smart enough to figure out what that best interest is. It's human nature.

[MelissaWV]

This is actually why socialism never works. Eventually you DO reach that tipping point where people realize it's more beneficial just to sit on thier ass and collect thier entitlements. You think anyone enjoys working ?? Hell no , we do it as a means for survival, not for any "greater good" . People will never work if thier only motivation is a "greater good" . We always do instintively whats in our OWN best interest ,and we're usually smart enough to figure out what that best interest is. It's human nature.

I love working. I just don't love working to fund other people's whims.

[idirtify]

I do know what I advocate. The system to fail.
Let me say it again for clarity.
I want the welfare system to fail. I want our slavery to end.
If you are afraid, build a bunker and hide inside.

Thanks for being a little clearer about what you advocate, and implying more of an agreement with my distinction between “the system” and certain elements of it like welfare. Now refer back to my earlier comments about your method of joining the enemy. Remember that there is also a big distinction between wanting something and trying to accomplish it; good intentions do not necessarily say anything about the methods used, which can be quite lousy. Your method of going on welfare is lousy.

[Captain Bryan]

Sounds like a good site. You could feature this video on it.

YouTube - Good Intentions 1of3 Introduction and Public Schools with Walter Williams (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1r-r6iLBEI&)

Wow, Walter Williams is great!

[torchbearer]

Thanks for being a little clearer about what you advocate, and implying more of an agreement with my distinction between “the system” and certain elements of it like welfare. Now refer back to my earlier comments about your method of joining the enemy. Remember that there is also a big distinction between wanting something and trying to accomplish it; good intentions do not necessarily say anything about the methods used, which can be quite lousy. Your method of going on welfare is lousy.

your opinion is meaningless. zero value. not worth the bits transfered.

[Elwar]

I'll get to work on this when I get a chance...

Of course, if I wasn't working I'd have it up by now :P

[Elwar]

As for what would happen for those on the dole once the system collapses?

I would encourage people to use the time not working to work toward becoming self sufficient and prepare for the world after the reboot.

[fisharmor]

I'm with Melissa. I come home from work and I work some more. When we're watching TV, I'm working on something. I either work, or I sleep.
I'd be all about this idea, because it would leave me plenty of time to work on other things besides my day job. The problem is that I'd probably be making an additional 40k on top of welfare, and it'd be hard to hide. So I think I'd get found out pretty quickly, unless I was doing all my other work under the table, and then I'd be risking a visit from the IRS and possibly a vacation in the place that makes small holes bigger.

[torchbearer]

I'm with Melissa. I come home from work and I work some more. When we're watching TV, I'm working on something. I either work, or I sleep.
I'd be all about this idea, because it would leave me plenty of time to work on other things besides my day job. The problem is that I'd probably be making an additional 40k on top of welfare, and it'd be hard to hide. So I think I'd get found out pretty quickly, unless I was doing all my other work under the table, and then I'd be risking a visit from the IRS and possibly a vacation in the place that makes small holes bigger.

if its your business...its your business no one elses.
I have a good setup for this experiment. i literally have barter arrangements for a lot of my services.
I have a doctor that sees me for free and I work on his computers for free.
I have a grocer that gives me food in return for my service.
barter is not taxable.

[tremendoustie]

I was considering creating a website asking the question "Why Work?" with a salary calculator that showed how much you would be making if on the government dole as compared to current salary.

I've checked a few sites and for some states you can get about $25,000 worth of benefits a year if you're not working. This includes free housing, free health care, free food, free cell phones, etc.

Would it be a good idea to encourage people to quit ala Atlas Shrugged and bring down the machine even quicker? The more government subsidies they give, the more people will quit.

People can quit and have more time to work on campaigning against their current representatives.

I think this site would make a great point -- and if the system goes bankrupt that much faster, so be it.

[FrostyLeaf]

so is this the vote democrat thread?

lol

[Fox McCloud]

it's actually pretty sad how much you have to make before you're out of the "Dead zone". Effectively, you have to make around $60,000 or more before you're really "making more" than other individuals: http://mises.org/images/3822/Figure1.png

This chart will be a bit different, based on family size, etc, but the chart still clearly shows that your real income (after taxes and with subsidies) is pretty much flat until you hit the $50,000-$60,000 mark.

Either way , I encourage the creation of this site--though It will be difficult to get the exact number; I'd start with the Federal first, then, once that becomes popular, let others help you with the creation of State benefits; once that's more or less completely, then you can begin the ultra-grueling task of focusing on county benefits (you could focus on large city benefits too, but now you're getting so detailed it's not even funny)

Once completed, then it can all be put together and users could simply select their State and county to see what kind of benefits they could earn a year (and for how long) without a job.

Go for it, it'd be educational to people of all political persuasions.