Anyone have a tough inner conflict of viewpoints?

[Griffith]

Strange thing just happened to me recently. I decided I would really like to play online poker to earn extra money but it is illegal in my state so I can't play. Most states it is legal but not in mine. For a second I caught myself thinking that individual states shouldn't be able to do that. In Nevada I'm sure the only reason they passed that law was to restrict gambling to the big casinos.

Then also the U.S. Federal Government has passed the UIGEA law against internet gambling (actually just against certain bank transactions). And a global regulator, the WTO, has continually ruled against the U.S. and called this law illegal or unfair.

I almost caught myself wishing that since the WTO is on my side in this instance that they would overrule the U.S. on this retarded law.

[.Tom]

No state should be allowed to infringe on your right to partake in peaceful activities like gambling. There's no need to feel conflicted.

[Kade]

No state should be allowed to infringe on your right to partake in peaceful activities like gambling. There's no need to feel conflicted.

In my absence there appears to be an influx of rational people on the forums. Perhaps a favorable environment for reason.

Well said, sir.

[pcosmar]

:D

Outlaw and pirate.:p

No conflicts.

[silus]

Attacking someone vs. trying to politely reason with them.

[Pennsylvania]

I've been conflicted for about half a year now. Specifically with regards to private property. At this point I'm about halfway between libertarian and libertarian socialist. I've never come closer to just giving up on trying to "figure things out".

[Kade]

I've been conflicted for about half a year now. Specifically with regards to private property. At this point I'm about halfway between libertarian and libertarian socialist. I've never come closer to just giving up on trying to "figure things out".

You don't have to...

http://www.chomsky.info/

[Indy Vidual]

Did someone say "inner conflict?"

Anyone have a tough inner conflict of viewpoints?
Yes, I do:

Most people are decent and honest (with some obvious exceptions)

"We get the government which we deserve", and the average person doesn't help the cause of Liberty.


Despite the fear and doubt: The future is bright. :)

We are f@cked, and it really is "too late." :eek:



Most young women support free choice and that is the proper Libertarian position.

Abortion is wrong, despite any political arguments.



Sports events are exciting and a great form of entertainment.

Sports is for people who drink, and I'm done with that. :p


Movies are exciting and a great form of entertainment.

The average movie is a stupid waste of time


Ron Paul should run in 2012 and deserves our full support.

I will never really forget the pain of Jan 2008, and Ron still hasn't cleared up why his good name was on those racist newsletters for so many years


Rand Paul is winning and deserves our full support!

What did he say...?


This forum is a great place to spend time, and the diverse group of people is wonderful.

RPF's has way too much negativity, and might be a waste of time


Dr. Frank's book (http://www.amazon.com/Words-That-Work-What-People/dp/1401302599), which I skimmed at the library, shows a human side which was interesting, informative and entertaining.

F-you Frank!


Saying "F-you Frank!" is childish and pointless; RPF's would be better if people stopped saying that so often.

F-you Frank!!!


With effort: I could think, act, and eat "better."

Why try?

[hugolp]

You don't have to...

http://www.chomsky.info/

Great. Is there where they teach you how to send the moeny you earn from telling people beautiful nonsense to a fiscal paradise?

[dannno]

Ya.

Intellectual property and oceans (public commodity vs. private ownership)

[jack555]

I've been conflicted for about half a year now. Specifically with regards to private property. At this point I'm about halfway between libertarian and libertarian socialist. I've never come closer to just giving up on trying to "figure things out".

There is nothing wrong with voluntary socialism. It's forced socialism that requires massive force against innocent people.


My 2 cents...

[Kade]

Great. Is there where they teach you how to send the moeny you earn from telling people beautiful nonsense to a fiscal paradise?

Spoken like a true idiot. I'd have a better response if I knew what you were actually saying.

[Taco John]

There is nothing wrong with voluntary socialism. It's forced socialism that requires massive force against innocent people.


My 2 cents...


Seconded. Insurance companies are a good example of voluntary socialism. I have no problem with insurance, nor anyone's free association with insurance. My problem is when this system is forced on everyone.

[Fox McCloud]

Seconded. Insurance companies are a good example of voluntary socialism. I have no problem with insurance, nor anyone's free association with insurance. My problem is when this system is forced on everyone.

insurance is hardly socialism---it's a system where-in calculated risks are taken into account.

Voluntary socialism is more like monasteries, communes, and the like....heck, the family unit is technically a modern socialistic/communistic form...though it's voluntary in nature. That said, even within these voluntary associations problems frequently arise over ownership, responsibilities, and who should get what, though these disputes are much more easily solved when it's 2-5 people as compared to 100's or even thousands of people.

[Pennsylvania]

You don't have to...

http://www.chomsky.info (http://www.chomsky.info/)/

I'm somewhat familiar with his opinions. I did read Chomsky on Anarchism and I always enjoy hearing his POV, but I think Chomsky and I approach things from fundamentally different perspectives. I'm not sure our views are reconcilable on a great many issues, unfortunately.


Great. Is there where they teach you how to send the moeny you earn from telling people beautiful nonsense to a fiscal paradise?

I know this post wasn't aimed directly at me, but since the one you quoted was in response to mine, let me just say that my objections to libertarian capitalism have little to do with money itself. Rather, my concern lies chiefly with the concept of wage slavery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery). Of course, I would emphasize that not all wage relationships can be classified as such, a point on which many libertarian socialists and I would disagree.


There is nothing wrong with voluntary socialism. It's forced socialism that requires massive force against innocent people.

The point is well taken. I once held this view, but I am no longer convinced that all claims to property, even in the context of Lockean/Rothbardian "just" homesteading rights, can, or should, be enforced (Rothbard moreso than Locke, I might add).

[emazur]

Promoting capitalism while the capitalists always go to the government for a handout or for protection from competitors. Yes, what we promote is free market capitalism by trailblazing entrepreneurs and praise them for making our lives better but often find them trying to cut deals w/ the government
YouTube - The myth that big business believes in the free market (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Urf1Ze1zw)
but at the same time, we know that individuals are open to plundering big business when they feel "entitled" to something
http://www.tooshocking.com/videos/630/Lots_of_Looting
http://www.10tv.com/live/content/local/stories/2009/10/14/story_burlington.html?sid=102
I've also read about a case of an advocates for the blind group plundering Target by law for not providing a blind-friendly website. I'm wondering if there's a paper out there that hypothesizes that business goes to bed w/ the government b/c business fears "the people" are also willing to do so.

I actually don't feel too conflicted about it though b/c I know capitalism, even with a dose of cronyism injected, is far and away superior to socialism.

[Uriel999]

I have one. I have been working in the publik education system for about 3 months now. I realized that there is actually a reason government has started trying to perform the role of the parent...because these children have no parents. Their parents are fucking pieces of shit who unfortunately have discovered how to breed and that is about all in life they discovered how to do. The children get no discipline except within the realm of the publik education system. So guess what guys and girls there is a reason the government has taken over parenting...because real parents are far and inbetween! Society is fucked.

[tremendoustie]

Strange thing just happened to me recently. I decided I would really like to play online poker to earn extra money but it is illegal in my state so I can't play. Most states it is legal but not in mine. For a second I caught myself thinking that individual states shouldn't be able to do that. In Nevada I'm sure the only reason they passed that law was to restrict gambling to the big casinos.

Then also the U.S. Federal Government has passed the UIGEA law against internet gambling (actually just against certain bank transactions). And a global regulator, the WTO, has continually ruled against the U.S. and called this law illegal or unfair.

I almost caught myself wishing that since the WTO is on my side in this instance that they would overrule the U.S. on this retarded law.

Freedom is what's right. The laws of your state are immoral -- it's right for you to oppose them. Don't think the solution is a bigger, stronger, more central government though. The solution is to change the minds of the people in your area (or to move to a freer area).

By the way, do you live in Washington state? Because that's the only state I'm aware of that really has draconian anti-online poker laws.

[Fox McCloud]

I have one. I have been working in the publik education system for about 3 months now. I realized that there is actually a reason government has started trying to perform the role of the parent...because these children have no parents. Their parents are fucking pieces of shit who unfortunately have discovered how to breed and that is about all in life they discovered how to do. The children get no discipline except within the realm of the publik education system. So guess what guys and girls there is a reason the government has taken over parenting...because real parents are far and inbetween! Society is fucked.

I do not work in public education, but this is an easy trend to see, for sure....though I wonder, are the parents this way by default, or does public education (and other government programs) and and of themselves help create this mentality? After all why be the parent when the state (public schools in this case) can do it for you, for free.

[tremendoustie]

I've been conflicted for about half a year now. Specifically with regards to private property. At this point I'm about halfway between libertarian and libertarian socialist. I've never come closer to just giving up on trying to "figure things out".

If a person owns themselves, and their time, they own what they produce. It seems clear to me. It's immoral to forcibly take the product of another person's labor.

[tremendoustie]

There is nothing wrong with voluntary socialism. It's forced socialism that requires massive force against innocent people.


My 2 cents...

Oh, that's true -- if he means voluntary worker owned businesses, communes, etc, I'm in full support. As always, as long as there's no aggressive violence.

[hugolp]

I'm somewhat familiar with his opinions. I did read Chomsky on Anarchism and I always enjoy hearing his POV, but I think Chomsky and I approach things from fundamentally different perspectives. I'm not sure our views are reconcilable on a great many issues, unfortunately.

I know this post wasn't aimed directly at me, but since the one you quoted was in response to mine, let me just say that my objections to libertarian capitalism have little to do with money itself. Rather, my concern lies chiefly with the concept of wage slavery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery). Of course, I would emphasize that not all wage relationships can be classified as such, a point on which many libertarian socialists and I would disagree.

No, I was not talking about money as a concept neither. I was talking about Chomsky, saying he is an anarchist, then claiming more goverment is good and that peole should pay taxes, and then having his money in a fiscal paradise outside the USA to avoid paying taxes. Chomsky might write beautiful things, but I dont understand how anyone can take him seriously.

About what you say, my position is that life is not perfect. And I believe by experience that the best way to end what you call wage slavery is through the free market. When a nation is very poor there is allways a process of building up capital and creating the infrastructure necesary to improve the standar of living. From a point of view of someone living in a more developed place their standar of living might look like slavery but the other ways have failed. Sending money to Africa has been a big disaster for Africa, instead accesing capital markets have forced the asians to invest more responsable and now, after years of working their asses off and building their capital, they are starting to get good jobs and better quality of life. There is not a magical way. If socialist were serious about helping this people, they would not treat them as inferior people that need to be taken care of, they would go there and industrialize their countries, treating them like what they are: normal people. Through a process of building capital this people can enjoy a better standar of living, this people wont improve their lives if they are treated like inferior humans that need us to feel guilty or peaty.

Sometimes I feel like people in the developed world like us forget how and why things really came to happen. Hard work is what gives you a better quality of life, the rest is rethoric, sometimes beautiful rethoric, but still just rethoric.

[Uriel999]

I do not work in public education, but this is an easy trend to see, for sure....though I wonder, are the parents this way by default, or does public education (and other government programs) and and of themselves help create this mentality? After all why be the parent when the state (public schools in this case) can do it for you, for free.

I understand that argument, I just am frustrated and saddened by the whole thing and I don't have answers. I see kids full of potential completely FUCKED by dysfunctional families. Actually to say these kids have families is a stretch. Society is completely and utterly broken. They live as animals. Their family's are broken and non-existent.

Then they go to publik education and are screwed by all the legalities making teachers not able to teach shit. In the school I work at , only math and reading are really focused on. Science is somewhat touched on. History, language, etc are irrelevent nowadays in school. :( :mad:

Today I found myself incredibly depressed for several reasons. I had a kid removed from the after school program because his "mom" wanted him out. I have never met his mom. The teacher I work worth has known the student for 2 years and has never seen his biological mom. The kid failed 4th grade last year (despite being very bright). This after school program has helped his grades immensely. Since the program began his step mom has picked him up daily. His step mom seems like a great person and is his REAL mom compared to his biological mom. She is a very sweet woman and very pretty to boot. Just seems like a good person in general. Well today his "real" mom decided that he couldn't be in the program anymore because of her work schedule despite having no involvement since the program began 3 months ago in picking him up. His step mom has picked him up everyday since the program began. The teacher I worked with tried to work things out to keep him in the program but no luck...Essentially his biological mom is pissed his step mom is essentially taking the task of being his REAL mom and decided to be a cunt and hurt her son by removing him from the program despite his protests.

That was reason one. Now here is my next story just about today. 1 fucking day 2 stories. So in the after school program we try to give the kids some fun activities. The kids have been making masks out of newspaper and glue. Today we were cutting the eyes out of the mask, but only the faculty (aka me and staff) were cutting out the eyes using box cutters. At one point a student picked up the box cutter I was using and I took it from her (non-violently of course I didn't beat up or taze the kid like your typical thug we have these days... :rolleyes: I just told her she couldn't use that). She was like wtf, and I was like dude these things were used during 911 to take over the planes. She had no clue what 911 was and was a 5th grader.

In conclusion...that was just one day at my job working in the publik education system.

[emazur]

I understand that argument, I just am frustrated and saddened by the whole thing and I don't have answers. I see kids full of potential completely FUCKED by dysfunctional families. Actually to say these kids have families is a stretch. Society is completely and utterly broken. They live as animals. Their family's are broken and non-existent.
How do you know of their families' situations anyway? Of course you must interact with a certain percentage somewhat regularly so I get that. But from a few minutes here and there after only 3 months, you are able to determine that most of the parents are shit? I'm not not trying to be accusatory or anything (wouldn't surprise me actually), just asking. What percentage would say say at least appear to be decent parents?

Also, do you know if your school teaches kids to read with phonics or the bullshit whole word approach? How are the kids reading ability in your 5th grade class?


I just told her she couldn't use that). She was like wtf, and I was like dude these things were used during 911 to take over the planes. She had no clue what 911 was and was a 5th grader.

How about most kids in general? 9/11 was almost a decade ago. I know when I was a kid I didn't give a damn about the news (9/11 isn't even mentioned much now anyway) and didn't know much about history either. My only knowledge of America's hated bad guys came from the back cover of a Mad Magazine parody of Garbage Pail Kids (like "Wacky Khadafi". I did a google search for the picture but couldn't find it).

[Bman]

Here's one of mine.

I want absolutley no involvement with Politics.

I'm tired of the Government stealing from me.

[nobody's_hero]

Freedom is what's right. The laws of your state are immoral -- it's right for you to oppose them. Don't think the solution is a bigger, stronger, more central government though. The solution is to change the minds of the people in your area (or to move to a freer area).


This.

Liberals run to the bigger government to beat up the smaller government when there's something they want.

We can do better. Like tremendoustie said, it's up to us to change our government, or leave its jurisdiction in search of freedom for ourselves. "Vote with your feet," as they say.

[angelatc]

I almost caught myself wishing that since the WTO is on my side in this instance that they would overrule the U.S. on this retarded law.

While I never find that I want the WTO to write American law, just because you agree with the WTO on some issues doesn't mean much. Politics makes strange bedfellows.

We're stuck siding with the Democrats on the antiwar stuff, but it doesn't mean we want to fund every shiny program that pops into their little heads.

[Griffith]

Freedom is what's right. The laws of your state are immoral -- it's right for you to oppose them. Don't think the solution is a bigger, stronger, more central government though. The solution is to change the minds of the people in your area (or to move to a freer area).

By the way, do you live in Washington state? Because that's the only state I'm aware of that really has draconian anti-online poker laws.

Live in Nevada, it's a felony in Washington state which is the only one where it's that way. It's a misdemeanor here.

[Griffith]

While I never find that I want the WTO to write American law, just because you agree with the WTO on some issues doesn't mean much. Politics makes strange bedfellows.

We're stuck siding with the Democrats on the antiwar stuff, but it doesn't mean we want to fund every shiny program that pops into their little heads.

Yeah I hate that. Liberals complain about the war and then point the finger at Conservatives. Seriously? Real conservatives don't want it either. We have to take the blame from Bush.

[MN Patriot]

Did someone say "inner conflict?"

Anyone have a tough inner conflict of viewpoints?
Yes, I do:

Most people are decent and honest (with some obvious exceptions)

"We get the government which we deserve", and the average person doesn't help the cause of Liberty.


Despite the fear and doubt: The future is bright. :)

We are f@cked, and it really is "too late." :eek:
.
.
.


Good comments.

Bman:
Here's one of mine.

I want absolutley no involvement with Politics.

I'm tired of the Government stealing from me.

Yes, mine exactly. On one hand I just want to do my one thing. On the other I am very concerned about the direction this country is going, and how we have become slaves to the Establishment.

[silus]

Blonde vs. Brunette.

[dean.engelhardt]

Strange thing just happened to me recently. I decided I would really like to play online poker to earn extra money but it is illegal in my state so I can't play. Most states it is legal but not in mine. For a second I caught myself thinking that individual states shouldn't be able to do that. In Nevada I'm sure the only reason they passed that law was to restrict gambling to the big casinos.

Then also the U.S. Federal Government has passed the UIGEA law against internet gambling (actually just against certain bank transactions). And a global regulator, the WTO, has continually ruled against the U.S. and called this law illegal or unfair.

I almost caught myself wishing that since the WTO is on my side in this instance that they would overrule the U.S. on this retarded law.

Glad you brought up this subject that I am passionate about.

I was responsibly enjoying online poker until UIGEA allowed the Federal Government to make moral descisions on my behalf and stoppped me from enjoying myself. Joe Pitts, my house representative, was key in passing UIGEA. I've made it clear to him how much I appreciate that he came into my home computer to take control for my benefit.

That said, I would not look to the WTO to take control over the situation. Liberty starts with the individual. The larger the collective group, the less control they should have on liberty. The WTO should have no authority except over individuals that agree to give up their liberties to be part of the group.

[AlexMerced]

No, when I have a conflict, I realize I'm either letting my own personal values obstruct my clarity of the principles application or I'm not examining deep enough

[RonwasRight]

I am firmly against Obamacare, yet my 60ish mother has no health insurance at an age where health insurance is approaching necessity.

We must have reform, but Obamacare is far from it. While I fight against it, in the back of my brain I am almost happy my mother may have insurance soon.

that is my conflict.