Anyone else tired of hearing "Legalize Marijuana To Tax It"?

[Rael]

Saying we should legalize marijuana to tax it implies that we are paying taxes for the "privilege" of legal marijuana. Owning your body and peacefully doing what you want is a RIGHT, not a privilege! And we don't need to beg or offer concessions to exercise our rights.

[MRoCkEd]

true but it's a step in the right direction

[silus]

Saying we should legalize marijuana to tax it implies that we are paying taxes for the "privilege" of legal marijuana. Owning your body and peacefully doing what you want is a RIGHT, not a privilege! And we don't need to beg or offer concessions to exercise our rights.
How about, we should legalize marijuana... then we can tax it.

[dannno]

They also let you grow your own in a 5'x5' area, no tax

http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/2/30223DSCN2568.JPG

Many medicinal patients get 4 times that amount of grow space, and I have no reason to believe that they won't be able to after the law passes.

[TastyWheat]

I'm as tired of hearing this as I am tired of hearing, "pass the FairTax!"

[silus]

Fair tax ain't a bad idea. :shrug

[low preference guy]

Fine with me as a first step.

You can't really expect people not to tax pot if alcohol is taxed.

Once pot use is legal and the world doesn't end, one can five ways to advocate cutting spending and reducing the tax burden.

[Vessol]

Fine with me as a first step.

You can't really expect people not to tax pot if alcohol is taxed.

Once pot use is legal and the world doesn't end, one can five ways to advocate cutting spending and reducing the tax burden.

This. Baby steps are better then nothing.

[Pauls' Revere]

I always thought it was a lame arguement in order to pass legislation regardless of what it is.

So, it goes like this. If it gets passed and legalized then we get taxed and the government can make oodles of money to run social programs and the like, etc, etc, etc, ... sounds alot like the luxury tax or sin taxes on liquor and cigarettes. Problem is only those who can afford it will purchase it, others will grow thier own for personnal use or otherwise and thus avoid the taxes altogether. Would you rather buy from a friend tax free or purchase at some store and hand more money to the government? Hasn't anyone here enjoyed a homebrewed beer made by a friend without having to pay taxes? Honestly, whatever it is and the people want it, why the hell must it be taxed? wtf!

[TCE]

Whenever something is sold, it is typically taxed via sales tax, making the argument pointless. I like the extended argument: "Why spend money imprisoning and trying hundreds of thousands of people when we can legalize it and make a bunch of money without spending a dime?"

It's also a rallying cry that states with unbalanced budgets can get behind.

[JeNNiF00F00]

Fair tax ain't a bad idea. :shrug

There is NO fair tax. :rolleyes:

[low preference guy]

I always thought it was a lame arguement in order to pass legislation regardless of what it is.

So, it goes like this. If it gets passed and legalized then we get taxed and the government can make oodles of money to run social programs and the like, etc, etc, etc, ... sounds alot like the luxury tax or sin taxes on liquor and cigarettes. Problem is only those who can afford it will purchase it, others will grow thier own for personnal use or otherwise and thus avoid the taxes altogether. Would you rather buy from a friend tax free or purchase at some store and hand more money to the government? Hasn't anyone here enjoyed a homebrewed beer made by a friend without having to pay taxes? Honestly, whatever it is and the people want it, why the hell must it be taxed? wtf!

All you said is true but you omitted that law enforcement will save TONS of money for not prosecuting pot dealers. We could argue then for a lower income tax or something like that from those savings.

[Pauls' Revere]

Whenever something is sold, it is typically taxed via sales tax, making the argument pointless. I like the extended argument: "Why spend money imprisoning and trying hundreds of thousands of people when we can legalize it and make a bunch of money without spending a dime?"

It's also a rallying cry that states with unbalanced budgets can get behind.

Arguement addendum:

These taxes (and any other tax) supports government programs and thus more people become dependent on government.

[.Tom]

Glad to know I'm not the only one who's tired of the "legalize to tax and regulate it". How about legalize and don't tax or regulate it?

Also, what grinds my gears even more is the people who say "legalize and TAX THE HELL OUT OF IT". They say it in all caps too, no joke. I'm sure you've come across them as well.

It's like they're halfway there, they realize that the government is evil for restricting their choice of what to put in their bodies, but then they turn around and trust that same government to steal from them.

With that said... it's still better than keeping it illegal and hopefully a step in the right direction.

[Kotin]

There is NO fair tax. :rolleyes:

+1

[low preference guy]

I agree with Paul's Revere that one should not have to pay taxes whenever one wants to sell something, but only when one receives a service from the government. For example, if you and I get into a contract, we can pay a tax so that the contract is enforced. But that will also allow us to just agree to a verbal contract without the government. The risk is of course that if one of us break our part the government won't be able to come and enforce it, so we have to choose wisely who we make unofficial contracts with.

The justification of a sales tax is that it is a transfer of property. But again, if companies develop mechanisms to sell their products without needing the government help to recover stolen products, they should be able to sell without taxes. For example, they could charge in advance, and the user would trust the company because of his past actions and its interest to keep its reputation. If the company doesn't deliver the product, the customer of course cannot sue the company because he bought the product without a tax.

[.Tom]

There is NO fair tax. :rolleyes:
+2

[TCE]

Arguement addendum:

These taxes (and any other tax) supports government programs and thus more people become dependent on government.

I obviously agree, and in a perfect world, there would be virtually no taxes and/or no taxes. Unfortunately, that isn't the world we live in. The government will tax it and regulate it to death. We have to keep moving the chains forward one step at a time.

[Pauls' Revere]

All you said is true but you omitted that law enforcement will save TONS of money for not prosecuting pot dealers. We could argue then for a lower income tax or something like that from those savings.

Legalize, no taxes, law enforcement saves money, people use without breaking the laws, all is good with rainbows and ponies.

The trap (or bribe) that we should hand more money (pot tax) to government so they wont throw people in jail is lame.

[silus]

There is NO fair tax. :rolleyes:
You're really good at playing dumb.

Obviously i'm not characterizing it as fair, thats just what it has been named. Do you have anymore dirty, underhanded tactics to use in an irrelevant and inconsequential discussion? :rolleyes:

[Pauls' Revere]

I obviously agree, and in a perfect world, there would be virtually no taxes and/or no taxes. Unfortunately, that isn't the world we live in. The government will tax it and regulate it to death. We have to keep moving the chains forward one step at a time.

I understand, so if one grows thier own would they be arrested for tax evasion? isnt that how they busted the mob when they ran liquor?

[TCE]

I understand, so if one grows thier own would they be arrested for tax evasion? isnt that how they busted the mob when they ran liquor?

Under current Supreme Court precedent, they probably would be. Sad that when one problem is solved ten more appear.

[RSLudlum]

My brother and I had a discussion Saturday at our parents house over some beers about the same type of reasoning used to allow certain new policies or actions.

Here in Charleston there's a push for a new cruise ship terminal and allowing gambling. Most of the advocates, many conservatives, are using the 'new revenue stream' argument to push for it. To quote my younger brother on this one "I'm really f#@king tired of them using the 'revenue stream' tagline. Why don't just let people and business do what the people in the area think is good for themselves?" Of course, that's not feasible to those in power.

[Free Moral Agent]

Look its called marketing, and in Cali we are broke. The pot smokers are going to vote for it whether it fills up the states coffers or not. The legislation would be no where near getting passed if it was not taxed and thus wouldn't appeal to non-smokers.

The bill at least here in CA would regulate marijuana in the same manner that alcohol is regulated. If you compare the costs of fine or imprisonment to sales tax, you would see that it actually is a REDUCTION IN TAXES! I have no problem with that and I think its a step toward our side of the spectrum.

[BuddyRey]

Yeah, it really does bother me, especially since my pro-decrim and pro-legalization friends are clamoring for it, begging government to "tax and regulate marijuana."

Hell no, don't tax it, don't regulate it; let the market regulate cannabis like it does with every other good or service and leave us the Hell alone!

[silus]

Yeah, it really does bother me, especially since my pro-decrim and pro-legalization friends are clamoring for it, begging government to "tax and regulate marijuana."

Hell no, don't tax it, don't regulate it; let the market regulate cannabis like it does with every other good or service and leave us the Hell alone!
In reality, where we live, there is not that legalize it but don't tax it option. People might be supporting the legalize it/tax it position because they see the prospect of legalization as the real battle, and the taxation aspect as something that was already inevitable in this economic system.

[Pauls' Revere]

Look its called marketing, and in Cali we are broke. The pot smokers are going to vote for it whether it fills up the states coffers or not. The legislation would be no where near getting passed if it was not taxed and thus wouldn't appeal to non-smokers.

The bill at least here in CA would regulate marijuana in the same manner that alcohol is regulated. If you compare the costs of fine or imprisonment to sales tax, you would see that it actually is a REDUCTION IN TAXES! I have no problem with that and I think its a step toward our side of the spectrum.

it's already regulated...police bust farms and people.

just wish they would push for it from a different angle.

:cool:

[Ninja Homer]

If saying "legalize marijuana to tax it" helps get it legalized, so be it. It's a weed. Plant some seeds and spend just a little time on the plants and you're going to get some marijuana. Are people more likely to plant their own, buy untaxed from friends who grow their own, or buy taxed marijuana? My guess is one of the first 2.

Alcohol isn't a real good comparison. If I could plant some seeds and then just pick bottles of Jack Daniels from it a couple months later I probably wouldn't be going to the liquor store much. Distilling liquor is a little more involved than just growing a plant.

Anything that helps get it legalized is a good thing. I haven't smoked weed in over a decade. I'm actually a little more interested in seeing the legalization of hemp so it can be used as an energy source, but they kinda go hand-in-hand.

[Andrew-Austin]

If they tax the shit out of it, the marijuana black market will still go on. I'm guessing anyways.

[MN Patriot]

Saying we should legalize marijuana to tax it implies that we are paying taxes for the "privilege" of legal marijuana. Owning your body and peacefully doing what you want is a RIGHT, not a privilege! And we don't need to beg or offer concessions to exercise our rights.

Just the idea of legalizing pot is radical for most people. Let it start there, and if they want to tax it like they do alcohol, fine. At least it is a step in the right direction. Then people can grow their own, like they brew their own beer, with no fear of being prosecuted.

[Bruno]

I wish it were legal, or decriminalized, and no tax was imposed.

However the main problem I have with them taxing it if they are going to do so is that taxes are being proposed based upong the current, illegal market price for marijuana at around of $400/ounce, some proposing taxes of $50 or more an ounce.

If marijuana were illegal, you could produce an ounce outdoors for under $1 by placing a quality seed in the ground and letting nature take its course (if in the right climate and with minimal care). Even indoors, an ounce could come in easily at under $25. To tax it so highly is unjust, and equivalent to taxing a pack of cigarettes $50 each.

That, and lawmakers have no clue about the market and try to write laws about it which just reveal their ignorance. Like allowing you to grow six plants, or grow in a 5x5 area, but only possess an ounce. If you could grow six plants outdoors, you could yield six pounds or more, and therefore would be breaking the law unless you destroyed your crop.

[torchbearer]

If they tax the shit out of it, the marijuana black market will still go on. I'm guessing anyways.

well, you won't be thrown in prison for smoking it.
and it will be hard to determine if a tax was paid or not on something you are already smoking.
so it would be hard to enforce it without stamps.

[Icymudpuppy]

I see no problem with taxing it. Those who buy it from government stores will have to pay the tax. Those who grow their own, won't. What's the big deal?

I make my own alcohol too. No tax on my alcohol. BTW, Jacking is easier than distilling, but less consistent. If you want to distill, it's easier than many make it out to be. Do you have a pressure cooker with a check valve such as on modern Mirro brand cookers? Instead of putting your pressure weight on the valve, attach a hose. Viola!

[mrsat_98]

Whenever something is sold, it is typically taxed via sales tax, making the argument pointless. I like the extended argument: "Why spend money imprisoning and trying hundreds of thousands of people when we can legalize it and make a bunch of money without spending a dime?"

It's also a rallying cry that states with unbalanced budgets can get behind.

Sales tax is an absolute fraud.





There is NO fair tax. :rolleyes:

There are a few but sales and income tax are not among them.

[brandon]

yea I can't stand hearing this.

I guess these people that want legalized+taxed marijuana are too stupid to realize people will just grow their own and small scale "black markets" form where people who grow sell the leftovers tax free to their friends.

[johnrocks]

Anyone who thinks anything legal won't be taxed isn't a realist. Of course I don't like it taxed but it will be, hell, those statists would tax air if they could.

[Bruno]

Anyone who thinks anything legal won't be taxed isn't a realist. Of course I don't like it taxed but it will be, hell, those statists would tax air if they could.

They're already working on the CO2 tax

[ChaosControl]

All taxes are wrong. Although I can tolerate a consumption tax more than most other forms of taxation, it is still wrong.
If they legalize it to tax it, then grow your own instead of buying from a vendor.
Or enter into exchange with someone who opposes taxation and will enter a transaction with you that is not reported. **** the government and their stealing ways.

[Rael]

I make my own alcohol too. No tax on my alcohol. BTW, Jacking is easier than distilling, but less consistent. If you want to distill, it's easier than many make it out to be. Do you have a pressure cooker with a check valve such as on modern Mirro brand cookers? Instead of putting your pressure weight on the valve, attach a hose. Viola!

That's interesting. Do you know any good sites that explain the process?

[jmdrake]

Fine with me as a first step.

You can't really expect people not to tax pot if alcohol is taxed.

Once pot use is legal and the world doesn't end, one can five ways to advocate cutting spending and reducing the tax burden.

Exactly. Food is taxed. Why would anyone expect pot to be tax exempt?

[MN Patriot]

All taxes are wrong. Although I can tolerate a consumption tax more than most other forms of taxation, it is still wrong.
If they legalize it to tax it, then grow your own instead of buying from a vendor.
Or enter into exchange with someone who opposes taxation and will enter a transaction with you that is not reported. **** the government and their stealing ways.

The vast majority of people want government. How much government is an important debate; leftists want more, libertarians want less.

Government needs to be funded somehow, so it needs to collect taxes. Policy makers have been wrestling with that question for ages, how to make it fair. Progressives want it progressive, not regressive.

So the immediate issue is, what kind of tax can we tolerate? A tax that isn't designed to punish people, but just to collect revenue fairly. A consumption tax, exempting food, seems to me the fairest.

[LibertarianfromGermany]

From oppression to exploitation... guess it's a step in the right direction but still...

[idirtify]

To all those here who in any way defend the legalization slogans that include “tax / regulate it”:

None of your justifications or excuses has any merit. Don’t ask for something you don’t want – it’s as simple as that. Even if you suspect legal pot will be taxed/regulated anyway, petitioning for it serves no productive purpose. The more you ask for it, the more likely you will get MORE of it. Although a couple previous posters have said not to worry cause pot is so easy to grow at home, there is already tobacco legislation ready and waiting that says ANY amount you have with you will automatically be assumed to be “for distribution” and taxable (no matter whether it’s ACTUALLY for sale – and no matter how it was produced) – so that if you are found with the substance but without the proper papers (NO, not THOSE kind of “papers”), you go to jail. Now if you think those are silly things to worry about because they would be impossible to enforce, just think of the damage the gov inflicts on a daily basis with all their other “impossible-to-enforce” regulations. The point is DON’T ASK FOR IT!

[torchbearer]

To all those here who in any way defend the legalization slogans that include “tax / regulate it”:

None of your justifications or excuses has any merit. Don’t ask for something you don’t want – it’s as simple as that. Even if you suspect legal pot will be taxed/regulated anyway, petitioning for it serves no productive purpose. The more you ask for it, the more likely you will get MORE of it. Although a couple previous posters have said not to worry cause pot is so easy to grow at home, there is already tobacco legislation ready and waiting that says ANY amount you have with you will automatically be assumed to be “for distribution” and taxable (no matter whether it’s ACTUALLY for sale – and no matter how it was produced) – so that if you are found with the substance but without the proper papers (NO, not THOSE kind of “papers”), you go to jail. Now if you think those are silly things to worry about because they would be impossible to enforce, just think of the damage the gov inflicts on a daily basis with all their other “impossible-to-enforce” regulations. The point is DON’T ASK FOR IT!

when they are dragging your ass to prison and taking all your property, you will have wished they were just taxing it as a legal product.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Legal = Privilege

Decriminalize = Freedom

[idirtify]

Fine with me as a first step.

You can't really expect people not to tax pot if alcohol is taxed.

Once pot use is legal and the world doesn't end, one can five ways to advocate cutting spending and reducing the tax burden.

“Fine with me as a first step.”

So I guess it would have also been fine for you for civil-rights protesters to have petitioned: “free “SOME slaves”, or “give slaves SOME freedom”, or “free the slaves, but TAX them” – “Hey, at least it’s a fist step”.

“You can't really expect people not to tax pot if alcohol is taxed.”

Here let me help you extend your logic: “You can’t really expect your rights if they are already being violated. So you might as well request that they continue to be violated.”

“Once pot use is legal and the world doesn't end, one can five ways to advocate cutting spending and reducing the tax burden.”

Yes… since that plan has worked SOOOOO well in the past, I’m sure you will be listing examples for us (of sin taxes that went down).

[idirtify]

when they are dragging your ass to prison and taking all your property, you will have wished they were just taxing it as a legal product.

I don’t get your point. They do the same to you if you don’t pay your taxes.

[idirtify]

The vast majority of people want government. How much government is an important debate; leftists want more, libertarians want less.

Government needs to be funded somehow, so it needs to collect taxes. Policy makers have been wrestling with that question for ages, how to make it fair. Progressives want it progressive, not regressive.

So the immediate issue is, what kind of tax can we tolerate? A tax that isn't designed to punish people, but just to collect revenue fairly. A consumption tax, exempting food, seems to me the fairest.

Give me a break! Except for those in cahoots with government, no one WANTS taxes –
and no one (in their right mind) petitions FOR (MORE of) it.

[MelissaWV]

“Fine with me as a first step.”

So I guess it would have also been fine for you for civil-rights protesters to have petitioned: “free “SOME slaves”, or “give slaves SOME freedom”, or “free the slaves, but TAX them” – “Hey, at least it’s a fist step”.

“You can't really expect people not to tax pot if alcohol is taxed.”

Here let me help you extend your logic: “You can’t really expect your rights if they are already being violated. So you might as well request that they continue to be violated.”

“Once pot use is legal and the world doesn't end, one can five ways to advocate cutting spending and reducing the tax burden.”

Yes… since that plan has worked SOOOOO well in the past, I’m sure you will be listing examples for us (of sin taxes that went down).

Actually, slaves weren't all magically freed at once. Some slaves were also allowed to "buy" their freedom via serving in the military. Some slaves were "purchased" from the South in order to free them.

The point has already been made in this thread: you can already brew your own beer and not be taxed. You can even share a little with your friends and be okay. The same will be true of pot. In fact, pot is so easy to grow, even stoners can do it. Buying pot (and paying tax on it) will be more along the lines of paying a markup at a convenience store or grocery store for something you could make at home for less. You are merely purchasing time.

One of the things being ignored is that pot would then be removed from the "in plain scent" scenarios that are popping up all over. It would still potentially be grounds for a police officer to force their way into a search (just as an "open container" would be), but not in your home, etc..

[idirtify]

Actually, slaves weren't all magically freed at once. Some slaves were also allowed to "buy" their freedom via serving in the military. Some slaves were "purchased" from the South in order to free them.

The point has already been made in this thread: you can already brew your own beer and not be taxed. You can even share a little with your friends and be okay. The same will be true of pot. In fact, pot is so easy to grow, even stoners can do it. Buying pot (and paying tax on it) will be more along the lines of paying a markup at a convenience store or grocery store for something you could make at home for less. You are merely purchasing time.

One of the things being ignored is that pot would then be removed from the "in plain scent" scenarios that are popping up all over. It would still potentially be grounds for a police officer to force their way into a search (just as an "open container" would be), but not in your home, etc..

The point is not what you get, it is what you ask for. Since ALL slaves were petitioned to be freed, but only SOME were – you make MY point. You never get all you ask for, so you MUST ask for more than you will certainly get. It’s foolish to ask government for LESS than what you want.

Tax-free homebrew is not a good analogy, because gov knows home brewing is not simple and only a dedicated few will do it. New tobacco regs prove my point.

[MelissaWV]

The point is not what you get, it is what you ask for. Since ALL slaves were petitioned to be freed, but only SOME were – you make MY point. You never get all you ask for, so you MUST ask for more than you will certainly get. It’s foolish to ask government for LESS than what you want.

Tax-free homebrew is not a good analogy, because gov knows home brewing is not simple and only a dedicated few will do it. New tobacco regs prove my point.

You seem dead set on this, so I suppose I'll just bow out... but I do not know anyone who can create a cigarette precisely like those that are commercially available (additives and all). Homebrew? Lots of people do it, even on these boards.

Personally, I think it's foolish to play these games altogether. Ask for precisely what you want, not more, not less, and have a clear proposal to put to a vote. However I don't have a dog in this hunt.

[idirtify]

You seem dead set on this, so I suppose I'll just bow out... but I do not know anyone who can create a cigarette precisely like those that are commercially available (additives and all). Homebrew? Lots of people do it, even on these boards.

Personally, I think it's foolish to play these games altogether. Ask for precisely what you want, not more, not less, and have a clear proposal to put to a vote. However I don't have a dog in this hunt.

I don’t see your point about additives and all. The coming tobacco regs will see ANY AND ALL unstamped tobacco in your possession (rolled OR LOOSE), as taxable. If you possess, but can’t show the excise police your proper papers, you are in violation.

You might think it’s “foolish to play these games”, but we do not have a choice but to try to negotiate with government. And in any negotiation, you NEVER ask for less than what you want – because you figure you will end up with less than what you ask. This is especially true when dealing with government – who has no real incentive to give you ANYTHING.

[idirtify]

You seem dead set on this, so I suppose I'll just bow out... but I do not know anyone who can create a cigarette precisely like those that are commercially available (additives and all). Homebrew? Lots of people do it, even on these boards.

Personally, I think it's foolish to play these games altogether. Ask for precisely what you want, not more, not less, and have a clear proposal to put to a vote. However I don't have a dog in this hunt.

OH…just caught your last little snippet.

So let me just say:

I do not smoke pot either – nor do I do anything that is the slightest bit illegal or noncompliant. And I love the USA!

[amonasro]

The point has already been made in this thread: you can already brew your own beer and not be taxed. You can even share a little with your friends and be okay. The same will be true of pot. In fact, pot is so easy to grow, even stoners can do it. Buying pot (and paying tax on it) will be more along the lines of paying a markup at a convenience store or grocery store for something you could make at home for less. You are merely purchasing time.

Not wanting to derail the thread too much, but I would disagree. Brewing beer is easier. When growing marijuana indoors, you have to worry about soil PH/hydroponics issues, lighting, flowering times, pests and odor control (unless you like your house smelling like a dead skunk). Not to mention the safety concerns of setting up what are essentially street lights in a small growing area. Growing outside is admittedly easier but you are restricted to seasons and not everybody has a climate suitable for the amount of sunlight required for marijuana to grow.

And any dumb stoner that decided to let a pot plant grow in his windowsill without a plan has always seen it die before producing anything, I guarantee it :) That is why outside of pot enthusiasts, if marijuana was legal, people would NOT choose to grow their own just because of the complexities involved in producing a high-quality product.

[MN Patriot]

Give me a break! Except for those in cahoots with government, no one WANTS taxes –
and no one (in their right mind) petitions FOR (MORE of) it.

How can you seriously say that "no one" wants taxes? A large portion of the American population wants taxes, or their beloved government goes broke. Wake up to reality buddy. We are in a battle of the minds, and the perceptions and beliefs of what direction this nation is to go. We need to realistically assess the beliefs of those who oppose freedom. The opponents of freedom, and there are many, want big government and high taxes.

Regarding legalization of pot, treating it like we presently do with alcohol and tobacco is a reasonable first step. Tax it moderately and end the mindless War on Drugs. Use the tax for addiction programs. Most reasonable people would accept that. The fringe anarchists will be in an uproar over that idea, though, and undermine any reasonable efforts to ending the war on drugs.

[MelissaWV]

Not wanting to derail the thread too much, but I would disagree. Brewing beer is easier. When growing marijuana indoors, you have to worry about soil PH/hydroponics issues, lighting, flowering times, pests and odor control (unless you like your house smelling like a dead skunk). Not to mention the safety concerns of setting up what are essentially street lights in a small growing area. Growing outside is admittedly easier but you are restricted to seasons and not everybody has a climate suitable for the amount of sunlight required for marijuana to grow.

And any dumb stoner that decided to let a pot plant grow in his windowsill without a plan has always seen it die before producing anything, I guarantee it :) That is why outside of pot enthusiasts, if marijuana was legal, people would NOT choose to grow their own just because of the complexities involved in producing a high-quality product.

If it were legal, you wouldn't need to grow it inside, no. There are also fairly simplistic kits that would probably surface in order to set up a tiny hydroponic growing area for basic plants. Think Chia-Pot. ;)

As for certain strains and high-quality, there will be people who are willing to pay way more for that, I am sure. Not all booze or tobacco is created equal, either.

[speciallyblend]

Legalize and EAT IT!!!

[Bruno]

Not wanting to derail the thread too much, but I would disagree. Brewing beer is easier. When growing marijuana indoors, you have to worry about soil PH/hydroponics issues, lighting, flowering times, pests and odor control (unless you like your house smelling like a dead skunk). Not to mention the safety concerns of setting up what are essentially street lights in a small growing area. Growing outside is admittedly easier but you are restricted to seasons and not everybody has a climate suitable for the amount of sunlight required for marijuana to grow.

And any dumb stoner that decided to let a pot plant grow in his windowsill without a plan has always seen it die before producing anything, I guarantee it :) That is why outside of pot enthusiasts, if marijuana was legal, people would NOT choose to grow their own just because of the complexities involved in producing a high-quality product.

Nothing a little education and a few hundred dollars of supplies couldn't solve. ;) Most people would probably not grow, but entreprenuers would (and already do) fill that market void.

And don't fault "dumb stoners" with trying to grow a plant so they don't have to pay an arm and a leg to have their own. Maybe "uneducated smokers" would be more appropriate. :)

[Jordan]

Fair tax ain't a bad idea. :shrug

Roth IRAs, 401ks? Post-tax savings?

Yeah, the FAIR Tax is great! Screw people who have been responsible and saved, we'll tax 'em twice! That'll show them.

[silentshout]

I am also against taxing it, but then again, it's better than the cost and the inhumanity of imprisoning people for ingesting or smoking it in their own homes.

[amonasro]

If it were legal, you wouldn't need to grow it inside, no. There are also fairly simplistic kits that would probably surface in order to set up a tiny hydroponic growing area for basic plants. Think Chia-Pot. ;)

Haha. Problem with a Chia-Pot solution is that fluorescent lighting and CFLs produce a pathetic amount, plus you'd have to account for smell somehow because the plants REEK. (there goes the wife approval factor) I'm sure the market would come up with some nice little growbox solution though. Instead of Mr. Beer, it'd be Mr. Weed.

[speciallyblend]

I am also against taxing it, but then again, it's better than the cost and the inhumanity of imprisoning people for ingesting or smoking it in their own homes.

exactly, if we have to pay(taxes for the anti-marijuana folks(flat-earthers) to understand science, truth,common sense and facts! then i would prefer to pay some taxes so young adults or adults or seniors do not become criminals for choosing something safer then common aspirin and alcohol and many common foods in the grocery store!!!

It is kinda like paid education. We pay taxes,so the uneducated brainwashed flat earthers(anti-marijuana folks) understand 75 yrs of lies and propaganda about marijuana!!

the folks that created marijuana prohibition are the most corrupt folks on earth!!

END MARIJUANA PROHIBITION NOW anyone opposing this alone,should be viewed as defending 75 yrs of lies and propaganda and should be judged as such!!
GROW HEMP!!!!!!!!!
GROW CANNABIS!!!!

[speciallyblend]

Haha. Problem with a Chia-Pot solution is that fluorescent lighting and CFLs produce a pathetic amount, plus you'd have to account for smell somehow because the plants REEK. (there goes the wife approval factor) I'm sure the market would come up with some nice little growbox solution though. Instead of Mr. Beer, it'd be Mr. Weed.

hmmm and i want to market a sativa cologne for the ladies and men:) any investors hehe, just a thought, imagine sorry officer that is my car freshener;)

[idirtify]

How can you seriously say that "no one" wants taxes? A large portion of the American population wants taxes, or their beloved government goes broke. Wake up to reality buddy. We are in a battle of the minds, and the perceptions and beliefs of what direction this nation is to go. We need to realistically assess the beliefs of those who oppose freedom. The opponents of freedom, and there are many, want big government and high taxes.

Regarding legalization of pot, treating it like we presently do with alcohol and tobacco is a reasonable first step. Tax it moderately and end the mindless War on Drugs. Use the tax for addiction programs. Most reasonable people would accept that. The fringe anarchists will be in an uproar over that idea, though, and undermine any reasonable efforts to ending the war on drugs.

“How can you seriously say that ‘no one’ wants taxes? A large portion of the American population wants taxes, or their beloved government goes broke.”

That’s right, but those people are “in cahoots with government”.

“Wake up to reality buddy. We are in a battle of the minds, and the perceptions and beliefs of what direction this nation is to go. We need to realistically assess the beliefs of those who oppose freedom. The opponents of freedom, and there are many, want big government and high taxes.”

I am quite aware of that reality, and am with you 100%. This thread is a discussion about a better way to win.

“Regarding legalization of pot, treating it like we presently do with alcohol and tobacco is a reasonable first step. Tax it moderately and end the mindless War on Drugs. Use the tax for addiction programs. Most reasonable people would accept that. The fringe anarchists will be in an uproar over that idea, though, and undermine any reasonable efforts to ending the war on drugs.”

But the point of this thread is that none of those kinds of decriminalization realities came to be by asking for them. They all came to be by asking for MORE. Were folks demanding to “repeal prohibition” “fringe anarchists”? Not hardly. You are simply ignoring my previous points about basic negotiating.

[Peace&Freedom]

Reps from ReConsider, a drug law reform group that heavily uses this 'legalize to tax it' argument, explained to me that the purpose of this approach was not to preach to the choir. WE think about things from principle, but the general public thinks about practicality, or how to best manage what they see as a problem. Stressing that "you can't control it unless you regulate it, and you can't regulate or tax it if it's still illegal" has been field tested among the general population, and it works. For good or ill, free access to potentially dangerous substances is viewed as a problem by most folks, who operate on fear and hope.

The method gets past the emotional issue of "you liberty people are irresponsible, and want more of our kids exposed to crack" lurking in the background, and converts people to our side because it positions our stance as a 'responsible' attempt to control access. Yeah, you can be totally left brain and say we can make the case for being responsible without de-emphasizing our principled opposition to the drug war, but meanwhile we keep losing all the right brainers who will never listen to a logic-only appeal. So this pragmatic argument has its place in our arsenal of techniques to actually change minds.

[speciallyblend]

Reps from ReConsider, a drug law reform group that heavily uses this 'legalize to tax it' argument, explained to me that the purpose of this approach was not to preach to the choir. WE think about things from principle, but the general public thinks about practicality, or how to best manage what they see as a problem. Stressing that "you can't control it unless you regulate it, and you can't regulate or tax it if it's still illegal" has been field tested among the general population, and it works. For good or ill, free access to dangerous substances is viewed as a problem by most folks, who operate on fear and hope.

The method gets past the emotional issue of "you liberty people are irresponsible, and want more of our kids exposed to crack" lurking in the background, and converts people to our side because it positions our stance as a 'responsible' attempt to control access. Yeah, you can be totally left brain and say we can make the case for being responsible without de-emphasizing our principled opposition to the drug war, but meanwhile we keep losing all the right brainers who will never listen to a logic-only appeal. So this pragmatic argument has its place in our arsenal of techniques to actually change minds.


hit the nail on the head!!

[dannno]

yea I can't stand hearing this.

I guess these people that want legalized+taxed marijuana are too stupid to realize people will just grow their own and small scale "black markets" form where people who grow sell the leftovers tax free to their friends.

Ya know, when it becomes legal and it's being sold in stores, I really can't imagine all of these dumb regulations being enforced.

I think these "black markets" you speak of will really be more like "gray markets" and will become generally accepted. I don't think the government is going to spend too much time cracking down on small scale growers who may or may not be breaking the law.. because even though they aren't getting their taxes, I don't think it will be worth the expense of prosecuting them just for the taxes.

[dannno]

Instead of Mr. Beer, it'd be Mr. Weed.

They already have these:

http://www.dealzer.com/catalog/Hydroponics.png

http://www.dealzer.com/servlet/the-79782/Super-Closet-Deluxe-Hydroponic/Detail


http://www.dealzer.com/catalog/growbox.jpg

http://www.dealzer.com/servlet/the-79828/Mini-Cool-Cab-Hydroponics/Detail


http://www.dealzer.com/catalog/Hydroponics-Super-Cube.jpg


Even Stealth ones:

http://www.dealzer.com/catalog/PCGrowBox.jpg

http://www.dealzer.com/catalog/Sun-Speaker.gif

[MelissaWV]

They already have these:


Yeah... I'm familiar with these things existing, which is why I pointed them out. A lot of people will just be able to grow the plants on their property, though if there are limits as to how much you can grow for personal use... things will get ugly (how do you "restrict" such a thriving plant to a small patch of real estate, if you're in a naturally-conducive environment?).

[Bruno]

awesome pics above! Are the last two disquised as speakers?

bounce sheets can mask smell in a filtration system, btw

[MelissaWV]

awesome pics above! Are the last two disquised as speakers?

bounce sheets can mask smell in a filtration system, btw

Yet another use for dryer sheets o.O Amazing, amazing.

[Bruno]

Yet another use for dryer sheets o.O Amazing, amazing.

stuffed in empty toilet paper tube, they are incredible at doing the same thing with any smoke you happen to blow through them as well

[dannno]

If you're growin the super dank, I recommend at MINIMUM something like this for odor:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350108437634&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=L*F%3F&GUID=aba7ccce1270a0aad4a2d852fed6a385&itemid=350108437634&ff4=263602_263622
http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af143/FOOTHILLFILTERS/N61411.jpg


But really recommend something more like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120516796991&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=L*F%3F&GUID=aba7ccce1270a0aad4a2d852fed6a385&itemid=120516796991&ff4=263602_263622
http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/htgsupply/4_jr_Carbon_Filter_Fan_GALLERY.jpg

[dannno]

A lot depends on how much you need to hide the smell, how many plants you have, and it really doesn't start getting too odorous until the last few weeks of flowering.

[idirtify]

Reps from ReConsider, a drug law reform group that heavily uses this 'legalize to tax it' argument, explained to me that the purpose of this approach was not to preach to the choir. WE think about things from principle, but the general public thinks about practicality, or how to best manage what they see as a problem. Stressing that "you can't control it unless you regulate it, and you can't regulate or tax it if it's still illegal" has been field tested among the general population, and it works. For good or ill, free access to potentially dangerous substances is viewed as a problem by most folks, who operate on fear and hope.

The method gets past the emotional issue of "you liberty people are irresponsible, and want more of our kids exposed to crack" lurking in the background, and converts people to our side because it positions our stance as a 'responsible' attempt to control access. Yeah, you can be totally left brain and say we can make the case for being responsible without de-emphasizing our principled opposition to the drug war, but meanwhile we keep losing all the right brainers who will never listen to a logic-only appeal. So this pragmatic argument has its place in our arsenal of techniques to actually change minds.

What a wonderful way to describe the process of stooping to appeal to the bigots. It’s like saying that education doesn’t work with the ignorant, and that catering to their ignorance works better.

Speaking of “field-tested”, what are the stats on the historical success-rates of that kind of process? While you hunt for the data, I’d like to go out on a limb and predict what you will find. While you make the process sound novel with good potential, I predict that the average success-rate will read “s-h-i-t”.

Despite your inclination, I would tend to describe the process as the samo-samo “NORM” (employed by most groups like NORMAL since forfuckingever) – which has resulted in no real reform in the last 80 MFing YEARS!!

Given the horrible success rate of the kind of process you defend (sophisticated strategies of cowardly compromise), I wholeheartedly believe that they have far more to do with the resident bigotry of the activists than with the bigotry of the ones whose minds they claim they are trying to change. Here’s the main clue. You NEVER start negotiations by asking for less than what you want, or even by asking for exactly what you will accept. You start by asking for MORE. This is especially true when negotiating with government.

[Peace&Freedom]

Given the horrible success rate of the kind of process you defend (sophisticated strategies of cowardly compromise), I wholeheartedly believe that they have far more to do with the resident bigotry of the activists than with the bigotry of the ones whose minds they claim they are trying to change. Here’s the main clue. You NEVER start negotiations by asking for less than what you want, or even by asking for exactly what you will accept. You start by asking for MORE. This is especially true when negotiating with government.

If what we want is for the other side to budge an inch, this approach has been known to make many budge an inch. Asking for more is one negotiation technique, seeming to getting on the same side of the table as the opponent is another technique. Emphasis on the word 'seeming.' The failure of the GOP has been an 80 year process. The current war on drugs is officially about 40 years old. The left brain only, "people should be free to ingest what they want so long as they don't bother others" works for us, but has scarcely gotten us anywhere. The 'legalize in order to' argument IS new, and is budging some people.

[idirtify]

If what we want is for the other side to budge an inch, this approach has been known to make many budge an inch. Asking for more is one negotiation technique, seeming to getting on the same side of the table as the opponent is another technique. Emphasis on the word 'seeming.' The failure of the GOP has been an 80 year process. The current war on drugs is officially about 40 years old. The left brain only, "people should be free to ingest what they want so long as they don't bother others" works for us, but has scarcely gotten us anywhere. The 'legalize in order to' argument IS new, and is budging some people.

You imply that this approach has worked (in context of what we are discussing). What is your basis? You say it “IS new”. How new? You imply that it is working. What are your criteria? (How would you go about attributing any credit to the approach?)

You blame the failure to legalize on the civil-rights approach, but fail to mention the education approach. From what I know, the civil-rights / education approach worked to repeal alcohol prohibition.

You say modern drug prohibition is only 40 years old. Not that it’s central to the issue, but haven’t (some) drugs been prohibited ever since the 30s? Wasn’t coke made illegal just before alcohol prohibition and wasn’t pot prohibited right after repeal?

[Icymudpuppy]

That's interesting. Do you know any good sites that explain the process?

Just google "alcohol distilling" There are hundreds of sites.

[Imperial]

I don't mind a low tax. As long as it is low, it shouldn't act as a prohibitive barrier that forces retailers onto the black market.

[amonasro]

awesome pics above! Are the last two disquised as speakers?

bounce sheets can mask smell in a filtration system, btw

Bounce sheets can help cover the stank, but to really remove the odor you need something like those expensive rigs posted above. Something that draws the air over activated carbon so every air molecule is scrubbed. I've seen some badass DIY filtration systems, but if they fail... there goes your security.

And those computer case growboxes are definitely the best way to go stealth. If it's inconspicuous, you can have it growing literally right under the desk and no one thinks to look. You can only expect like 1/4 ounce yield, max, with those things though.

Actually, danno, depending on the strain they can stink pretty bad when they're vegging, before you even begin to flower them! An old friend of mine had a grow and you could smell the thing from down the hall before you even got in his apartment. It was a Kush strain, go figure. Lucky his ass didn't get caught.

[idirtify]

can we stay on topic please?

[GreedyHenry]

Anyone else tired of hearing "Legalize Marijuana To Tax It"?

This really gets to me too. Should we really have to bribe the government with more taxes for their stupid social programs to have the "privilege" to ingest a substance?

Another one that really gets to me is when (usually liberals) people talk about how backwards the US government is for still having marijuana illegal yet they support keeping other drugs illegal and say it would be crazy to legalize them. If you want big government to regulate everything and pass laws against what you can put in your body don't cry when your drug of choice is banned!

[MelissaWV]

can we stay on topic please?

The difficulty of making your own seems pretty relevant. It defines a difference between taxing something that will only be exclusively available through taxed means, and taxing something that will be sold/taxed to those who can't grow their own, don't want to, or don't know how. I look at it a bit like bread in that regard. You can buy crappy Wonderbread type stuff, and it's tax-free. You can make your own bread at home, and it's heavenly, and you can tailor it to your taste, but some of the items you buy to make this tax-free bread will be taxed. You can go to the specialty store and buy fancy bread that is considered prepared food, and pay tax on it, and save yourself the trouble. There are still a whole lot of people who pay extra to go to the store and buy "special" bread, but really it's way better made from scratch at home.

Some people will go to pot shops and buy it, and pay tax. A lot of people will just grow their own. A whole lot of people will never bother to smoke it at all.

Of course, legalizing pot for recreational use at all brings with it a tidal wave of accompanying legislation (can you smoke it in public places? around your children? while driving?) that the Government will gladly foist on the public after the fact. This means money from taxes, fines, sales of kits and lights and other materials, and sales of accessories (decorative water pipes :rolleyes:).

The only real counterbalance to all of this is the moral indignation of a few select groups.

[Peace&Freedom]

You imply that this approach has worked (in context of what we are discussing). What is your basis? You say it “IS new”. How new? You imply that it is working. What are your criteria? (How would you go about attributing any credit to the approach?)

You blame the failure to legalize on the civil-rights approach, but fail to mention the education approach. From what I know, the civil-rights / education approach worked to repeal alcohol prohibition.

You say modern drug prohibition is only 40 years old. Not that it’s central to the issue, but haven’t (some) drugs been prohibited ever since the 30s? Wasn’t coke made illegal just before alcohol prohibition and wasn’t pot prohibited right after repeal?

The White House declared 'war on drugs' is OFFICIALLY about 40 years old, as I plainly said, of course other aspects of it have been going on for longer. I am personally aware of hostile audiences giving the regulate message a positive hearing. The point is our principled position is unpersuasive to non-liberty audiences---there is no evidence to the contrary you have presented either.

If we will make no attempt whatsoever to put pragmatism at the service of principle, and persuasively present the issue to the public (meaning properly positioning ourselves, not just spouting party platform abstractions), it is no wonder we have gotten no where ending the WOD.

[andrewh817]

The problem started when people started arguing for legalization for medicinal purposes. Upon doing so, they're basically waiving the idea that you choose what you put in your body.

[nf7mate]

Legalizing marijuana would be a money maker for the government without having to tax it in any special way. The govt would save piles of money at Federal, State, and Local levels by not having to enforce the laws prohibiting its possession and use.

[dannno]

The problem started when people started arguing for legalization for medicinal purposes. Upon doing so, they're basically waiving the idea that you choose what you put in your body.

:rolleyes:

What you didn't see were all of the cancer and aids patients being arrested for buying or using cannabis. That is why the law was passed, to stop throwing sick people in jail for using it as a medicine.

Of course everybody should be able to use it, but it's really hard to argue that sick people should have to go out onto the black market and risk prison for their medicine. Now 14 years later 80% of the country is for medicinal marijuana, and finally legalization is at a tipping point. When it first passed in 1996, California only voted by ~ 60% margin, now the entire country has surpassed that figure.

It's all moving in the right direction. I started watching this closely over 10 years ago.

[live liberty]

I am. I've been smoking pot for 40 years and haven't paid one dime to a government for it, and I'm not going to start just because they made it legal.

[dannno]

I am. I've been smoking pot for 40 years and haven't paid one dime to a government for it, and I'm not going to start just because they made it legal.

So you'd rather be arrested and thrown in jail :confused:


If the government offered to cut spending in about half and cut income tax in about half, would you people be happier, or would you be all like "Who is tired of hearing that we should have our taxes lowered when we shouldn't be paying any at all?!! Screw this shit!!"


I've been paying local taxes for my medical cannabis and I have no problem paying sales tax considering everything else for sale is taxed. I'll deal with sales tax some other time. Spending needs to be dealt with too. But we don't need to throw people in jail for using cannabis, that is ludicrous.

And you don't have to pay taxes if you buy it on the black market once it's legal.. but you also won't have fucking cops throwing you in jail for possessing the substance. That is the main goal here.

[Rael]

I've been paying local taxes for my medical cannabis and I have no problem paying sales tax considering everything else for sale is taxed.

What is the average cost for medical marijuana? Are the taxes the same as the sales tax for other things?

[Bruno]

:rolleyes:

What you didn't see were all of the cancer and aids patients being arrested for buying or using cannabis. That is why the law was passed, to stop throwing sick people in jail for using it as a medicine.

Of course everybody should be able to use it, but it's really hard to argue that sick people should have to go out onto the black market and risk prison for their medicine. Now 14 years later 80% of the country is for medicinal marijuana, and finally legalization is at a tipping point. When it first passed in 1996, California only voted by ~ 60% margin, now the entire country has surpassed that figure.

It's all moving in the right direction. I started watching this closely over 10 years ago.

+ 1

And arguing for medical marijuana also goes to the heart of the federal case - which is that marijuana has absolutely no medicinal value and therefore is a Schedule I narcotic. Showing that it has medicinal value (and in fact the feds grow and supply 5 patients marijuana on a monthly basis since the early 90's under a program by Bush Sr.) tears apart that lie, and shows Americans that it is not the evil weed that 70 years of propaganda have told them it is.

[dannno]

What is the average cost for medical marijuana? Are the taxes the same as the sales tax for other things?

The cost for medical marijuana is the same as street price for typical quantities that can last anywhere from 1-10 (avg probably 3-6) days depending on the user.. so depending on quality, it ranges from $40-$65 for 1/8th of an oz., however the $65 1/8ths generally are not that much better than the $55 1/8th strains, they are just trying to get people to pay premium prices and know they are getting something good without having to judge themselves.... where as if you know what you're looking at and know enough about strains, you can usually get a $55 8th that is just as good as the expensive ones.

Many dispensaries pay sales tax to help legitimize themselves, they might include it in the price or charge extra, but it's about 8%.

The reason they have to charge so much is because if they charged less than the black market, then they would have a lot of people using them to supply the black market, it would be difficult for them to police themselves, the cops would get the low down on what's happening and possibly shut them down.

That is also why they don't have good quantity discounts... but it also encourages people to get smaller quantities of different strains which is very nice, actually.


http://www.ndpablo.com/humlife/images/articlepics/dispensary-counter.jpg

[dannno]

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/91997604.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921CC759DF4EBAC47D05E76D64004FC527B 0336B9C1B672855F9F2FED086891ABDEE30A760B0D811297

http://doctor2008.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/marijuana-dispensary.jpg

http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2009/cannabis_culture/cannabis_culture_03.jpg

[dannno]

#

http://www.nimbinwave.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/californian-dispensary.jpg

[Bruno]

Great pics, danno!

What bothers me the most about your detail of the pricing is that it reflects what the black market price already is. You describe the reasoning, but how/when does that change?

[idirtify]

The White House declared 'war on drugs' is OFFICIALLY about 40 years old, as I plainly said, of course other aspects of it have been going on for longer. I am personally aware of hostile audiences giving the regulate message a positive hearing. The point is our principled position is unpersuasive to non-liberty audiences---there is no evidence to the contrary you have presented either.

If we will make no attempt whatsoever to put pragmatism at the service of principle, and persuasively present the issue to the public (meaning properly positioning ourselves, not just spouting party platform abstractions), it is no wonder we have gotten no where ending the WOD.

“The White House declared 'war on drugs' is OFFICIALLY about 40 years old, as I plainly said, of course other aspects of it have been going on for longer.”

I am glad you agree that drug prohibition is certainly older than the official White House declaration of “drug war”.

“The point is our principled position is unpersuasive to non-liberty audiences---there is no evidence to the contrary you have presented either.”

Your wording is strategic. “Non-liberty audiences” would by definition be less open to principled libertarian positions. But the fast growth of things like this forum and the RP/liberty movements serves as hard evidence that our principled position is persuading plenty of audiences.

“If we will make no attempt whatsoever to put pragmatism at the service of principle, and persuasively present the issue to the public (meaning properly positioning ourselves, not just spouting party platform abstractions), it is no wonder we have gotten no where ending the WOD.”

Funny how you characterize one thing in two opposite ways: you start by commenting on “our principled position”, but end by describing “party platform abstractions”. Maybe you are not entirely confident amongst which audience you belong. You seem to be pretty closed to the potential of such a basic fundamental as using information to educate people.

[Rael]

The cost for medical marijuana is the same as street price for typical quantities that can last anywhere from 1-10 (avg probably 3-6) days depending on the user.. so depending on quality, it ranges from $40-$65 for 1/8th of an oz., however the $65 1/8ths generally are not that much better than the $55 1/8th strains, they are just trying to get people to pay premium prices and know they are getting something good without having to judge themselves.... where as if you know what you're looking at and know enough about strains, you can usually get a $55 8th that is just as good as the expensive ones.

Many dispensaries pay sales tax to help legitimize themselves, they might include it in the price or charge extra, but it's about 8%.

The reason they have to charge so much is because if they charged less than the black market, then they would have a lot of people using them to supply the black market, it would be difficult for them to police themselves, the cops would get the low down on what's happening and possibly shut them down.

That is also why they don't have good quantity discounts... but it also encourages people to get smaller quantities of different strains which is very nice, actually.


http://www.ndpablo.com/humlife/images/articlepics/dispensary-counter.jpg

Are there alot of independent growers and sellers? I understand most patients can grow a certain number of plants. I would think independent growers would have much more competitive prices. I have a relative in CA who has the marijuana card and can grow up to 6 plants. He buys from an independent grower though, not a dispensary.

I'm also guessing that under a scheme where marijuana is legal and taxed, that a independent grower would still do well even without the normal forces in place that cause prices to be at black market levels. A lot of people would rather buy their product from the friendly neighbor down the street than from Phillip Morris.

Sellers would probably discount the product and not charge customers the taxes, or charge them the taxes but not actually pay them to the government.

It's not like with liquors...there's no worry about explosions or blindness from a bad product, no bottling expenses, etc.

It's not as complicated as growing and curing tobacco.

I really just don't see either companies or the government making much money at all out of the marijuana itself. I think that the savings a major company would make by mass producing the product will be more than offset by the taxes, and independent underground growers would be too competitive. The majority of taxes collected would probably come from sales taxes on grow products and other marijuana paraphernalia.

[dannno]

Great pics, danno!

What bothers me the most about your detail of the pricing is that it reflects what the black market price already is. You describe the reasoning, but how/when does that change?

Well it's all market dynamics, if enough people have access to medicinal cannabis one way or another then one person doesn't need to go in and buy a pound to sell on the black market, instead you have several people buying an extra 1/8th or quarter for their friend instead. At that point the dispensaries can start setting the prices. One of the major problems though is competition. There IS a lot of competition, but the competition is very limited and it still serves a small segment of society. You can go to one club in LA that has great bud and great deals, and go a few blocks away to another one that is overpriced and not all that great... both places make $$ because the profit margin is so high that it doesn't take a lot of people to support the rent and other costs.. so there isn't a lot of incentive to compete on price or even quality that much for that matter (though there is a point where people will stop coming, there have been dealers selling shitty herb in the US for decades who have gotten plenty of business..)

The other major issue is that they keep shutting them down. I live in a pretty small town, and we had over a dozen dispensaries back in 2006-2007. The DEA kept threatening us, but the Sheriff wouldn't cooperate with the DEA. Eventually the DEA stepped in and got nearly all of the dispensaries shut down, at least temporarily, as they called all of their patients and setup home delivery services for a few weeks. When things cooled a bit, a few of them opened back up. We had probably about 8, but two got shut down recently.. So there isn't a huge incentive to open up these dispensaries, there's a bit of risk.

[Bruno]

Well it's all market dynamics, if enough people have access to medicinal cannabis one way or another then one person doesn't need to go in and buy a pound to sell on the black market, instead you have several people buying an extra 1/8th or quarter for their friend instead. At that point the dispensaries can start setting the prices. One of the major problems though is competition. There IS a lot of competition, but the competition is very limited and it still serves a small segment of society. You can go to one club in LA that has great bud and great deals, and go a few blocks away to another one that is overpriced and not all that great... both places make $$ because the profit margin is so high that it doesn't take a lot of people to support the rent and other costs.. so there isn't a lot of incentive to compete on price or even quality that much for that matter (though there is a point where people will stop coming, there have been dealers selling shitty herb in the US for decades who have gotten plenty of business..)

The other major issue is that they keep shutting them down. I live in a pretty small town, and we had over a dozen dispensaries back in 2006-2007. The DEA kept threatening us, but the Sheriff wouldn't cooperate with the DEA. Eventually the DEA stepped in and got nearly all of the dispensaries shut down, at least temporarily, as they called all of their patients and setup home delivery services for a few weeks. When things cooled a bit, a few of them opened back up. We had probably about 8, but two got shut down recently.. So there isn't a huge incentive to open up these dispensaries, there's a bit of risk.

Thanks for the details. Hope they quit shutting dispensaries down in your area and elsewhere.

It will be interesting to watch what happens when there is in fact more competition. Realistically, you should be able to sell quality herb for less than half the current price and still make a profit, perhaps even 25% of the current price.

[speciallyblend]

Great pics, danno!

What bothers me the most about your detail of the pricing is that it reflects what the black market price already is. You describe the reasoning, but how/when does that change?

IT CHANGES THRU HONEST FOLKS, REMEMBER only drug dealers and certain law enforcement want a black market. eventually friends and good folks will cause prices to go down. we have many folks in colorado working to make medical marijuana afforable to patients!! we also have many folks working on supply and demand. i see prices falling in the next 2-5 yrs!

plus it is legal to grow your own in colorado with a med card! i feel eventually the market will correct itself,once we get rid of a few more laws and end marijuana prohibition!!

[dannno]

Are there alot of independent growers and sellers? I understand most patients can grow a certain number of plants. I would think independent growers would have much more competitive prices. I have a relative in CA who has the marijuana card and can grow up to 6 plants. He buys from an independent grower though, not a dispensary.

Well the greater LA area used to have about 200 dispensaries, but the city has cracked down, I'm not sure how many there are. Google maps used to have almost all of them on there, but a lot of places have taken themselves off of there I guess so they can be more low-key.

I assume independent grower/seller just means somebody you know who has a medicinal license and grows a lot.. They can potentially charge better prices, but they are hard to connect with. The problem is that since you are limited by how much you can grow, you need other patients to form a cooperative of some sort (like what a dispensary is) so that they can grow A LOT and sell it to their customers. That limits the number of customers an independent grower can have, unless they form a cooperative of some sort with their patients.. then it's just basically an underground dispensary.




I'm also guessing that under a scheme where marijuana is legal and taxed, that a independent grower would still do well even without the normal forces in place that cause prices to be at black market levels. A lot of people would rather buy their product from the friendly neighbor down the street than from Phillip Morris.

Sellers would probably discount the product and not charge customers the taxes, or charge them the taxes but not actually pay them to the government.


Ya, it will be illegal, but I'm not sure what kind of punishments they will have.. I doubt it will be several years in jail or whatever it is now.



It's not like with liquors...there's no worry about explosions or blindness from a bad product, no bottling expenses, etc.

Depends on if you're growing indoor or outdoor... Indoor there is a lot to worry about as far as lighting, heat and humidity control, so there's lots of fans.. but it's not that bad.




It's not as complicated as growing and curing tobacco.

Um, it is more complicated..I've grown tobacco, haven't cured it properly, but drying and curing bud properly is not easy either.. and growing good bud is WAAAY harder than growing good tobacco. Getting good quality product takes quite a bit of skill. Do you smoke cannabis? Have you had stemmy, seedy schwag that takes a whole joint practically to get high? Have you had sticky oozing white chronic that takes one hit and you get higher than the entire schwag joint? Have you had everything in between? Right now at home I have 7.5+ grade buds through 10 grade buds.. I wish they were all 10s, but they just aren't..

Growing outdoors is seasonal unless you have an indoor setup to veg, then you can kinda go year around, but there are a lot of huge harvests around the end of October cause a lot of strains will stay in veg all summer and flower in the fall.

Growing and flowering indoor is hard. Pests are terrible with indoor setups, it has to be really clean, filtration helps a lot.. it's expensive if you want to do it right.

Growing outdoor will not always produce the best bud.. it's very strain dependent and dependent on the climate.




I really just don't see either companies or the government making much money at all out of the marijuana itself. I think that the savings a major company would make by mass producing the product will be more than offset by the taxes, and independent underground growers would be too competitive. The majority of taxes collected would probably come from sales taxes on grow products and other marijuana paraphernalia.

Ya I think they are dreaming regarding how much taxes they will get.. people will grow it themselves and buy it from unlicensed distributors if the product in stores isn't good or too expensive.

[s35wf]

I would just be happy to be able to grow a couple decent plants for my own personal smoke without threat of jail, losing house, & having kid taken away.

[Rael]

Um, it is more complicated..I've grown tobacco, haven't cured it properly, but drying and curing bud properly is not easy either.. and growing good bud is WAAAY harder than growing good tobacco. Getting good quality product takes quite a bit of skill. Do you smoke cannabis? Have you had stemmy, seedy schwag that takes a whole joint practically to get high? Have you had sticky oozing white chronic that takes one hit and you get higher than the entire schwag joint? Have you had everything in between? Right now at home I have 7.5+ grade buds through 10 grade buds.. I wish they were all 10s, but they just aren't..

Growing outdoors is seasonal unless you have an indoor setup to veg, then you can kinda go year around, but there are a lot of huge harvests around the end of October cause a lot of strains will stay in veg all summer and flower in the fall.

Growing and flowering indoor is hard. Pests are terrible with indoor setups, it has to be really clean, filtration helps a lot.. it's expensive if you want to do it right.

Growing outdoor will not always produce the best bud.. it's very strain dependent and dependent on the climate.
.

I didn't realize that. I read about growing tobacco awhile back and it seemed like the curing process was so involved and took so long that growing your own might not be practical.

[idirtify]

I would just be happy to be able to grow a couple decent plants for my own personal smoke without threat of jail, losing house, & having kid taken away.

Only a couple?

I have heard that here in some of Indiana’s bottomland soils ONE female plant can grow to 13 feet high and almost just as wide - so big you have to tie its branches up to keep them from braking from their own bud-weight – and each plant can yield 8 dried pounds of pure HQ sativa bud. All with zero fertilizer. Of course it could all be exaggerated urban myth ;)

[Gideon]

Legalize it.

Tax it.

Regulate it.

Use the oil for food and medicine.

Use the fibers for clothing, paper, and composite materials.

Stop buying hemp from China.

Hemp was a strategic crop for the first 150 years of the U.S. and can once again provide economic benefits for America.

If laws are required in order to "legitimize" it for domestic production, then so be it.

[Bruno]

Only a couple?

I have heard that here in some of Indiana’s bottomland soils ONE female plant can grow to 13 feet high and almost just as wide - so big you have to tie its branches up to keep them from braking from their own bud-weight – and each plant can yield 8 dried pounds of pure HQ sativa bud. All with zero fertilizer. Of course it could all be exaggerated urban myth ;)

Not a myth, depending upon the strain. Sativas tend to grow much taller than indicas or hybrids. 8 lbs is pretty high, though not impossible, and multiple pounds is not unreasonable.

If you paid $10 for a single high quality seed, and yield 2 lbs lets say, that is approximately $3000 or more for your $10 investment (outdoor bud price estimate).

And we wonder why the drug war is unsuccessful.


Legalize it.

Tax it.

Regulate it.

Use the oil for food and medicine.

Use the fibers for clothing, paper, and composite materials.

Stop buying hemp from China.

Hemp was a strategic crop for the first 150 years of the U.S. and can once again provide economic benefits for America.



YouTube - Hemp For Victory (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne9UF-pFhJY)

[Inflation]

"Legalize and Tax" is a sly way of getting people to accept legalization by appealing to their inherent taxpayer fiscal conservatism.

They might hate hippies, but they don't want to pay a cent to enforce Prohibition.

The dangling carrot of possible tax revenue reminds everyone that the Drug Wars cost us a bloody fortune. Hence the automatic appeal of reversing the situation.

[dannno]

I didn't realize that. I read about growing tobacco awhile back and it seemed like the curing process was so involved and took so long that growing your own might not be practical.

Hmm, well I grew some tobacco last year and dried and cured it, it's all in a gigantic ziplock bag, packed in there..

It still needs to be sliced up to put into cigs properly.. so honestly i don't know how well it cured.

[Rael]

Hmm, well I grew some tobacco last year and dried and cured it, it's all in a gigantic ziplock bag, packed in there..

It still needs to be sliced up to put into cigs properly.. so honestly i don't know how well it cured.

Was it easy to grow? How did u dry and cure it?

[idirtify]

Legalize it.

Tax it.

Regulate it.


Go ahead and invite big government into your house, but I choose not to. Instead, I choose to operate on principle and focus on THE MESSAGE.

[idirtify]

"Legalize and Tax" is a sly way of getting people to accept legalization by appealing to their inherent taxpayer fiscal conservatism.

They might hate hippies, but they don't want to pay a cent to enforce Prohibition.

The dangling carrot of possible tax revenue reminds everyone that the Drug Wars cost us a bloody fortune. Hence the automatic appeal of reversing the situation.

That’s a cop-out. You can bet they will tax it and regulate it without you asking them to. Your “dangling” accomplishes NOTHING but incurring MORE tax and regulation.

[gls]

I have a feeling that once it is finally legalized it will be taxed and regulated to the point where it will still be cheaper and easier buying it underground.

[.Tom]

I have a feeling that once it is finally legalized it will be taxed and regulated to the point where it will still be cheaper and easier buying it underground.

That's what I'm afraid of as well. But at least people like me, who don't know any drug dealers, will have an alternative if we want to pay the price.

[idirtify]

Originally Posted by Peace&Freedom
our principled position is unpersuasive to non-liberty audiences---there is no evidence to the contrary you have presented either.





the fast growth of things like this forum and the RP/liberty movements serves as hard evidence that our principled position is persuading plenty of audiences.



Peace&Freedom ,

Looks like there’s LOTS MORE evidence right here:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=238398
“How did you become a libertarian?”

[Rael]

I have a feeling that once it is finally legalized it will be taxed and regulated to the point where it will still be cheaper and easier buying it underground.

I think so too.

But I would probably be willing to pay even more buying it underground just to deny the government the taxes.

[dannno]

Was it easy to grow? How did u dry and cure it?

Well I got some pretty good soil in my yard, but ya, the tobacco was super easy to grow.. I had some small plastic grated crate bottoms or something, and I just let them dry on those in the sun, turning the leaves daily until there was no more green (but not completely bone dry) then stuck it in a ziplock bag, which I kept cracked open to let the leaves cure more and just kept drying and collecting over time cause I didn't have a huge drying area.

[Bruno]

Well I got some pretty good soil in my yard, but ya, the tobacco was super easy to grow.. I had some small plastic grated crate bottoms or something, and I just let them dry on those in the sun, turning the leaves daily until there was no more green (but not completely bone dry) then stuck it in a ziplock bag, which I kept cracked open to let the leaves cure more and just kept drying and collecting over time cause I didn't have a huge drying area.

Have you smoked any yet? If so, how was it?

[dannno]

Go ahead and invite big government into your house, but I choose not to. Instead, I choose to operate on principle and focus on THE MESSAGE.

I prefer to preserve my own liberty as much as possible.

Would you oppose a tax cut based on the principle that you shouldn't be paying any taxes, or would you be in favor of a tax cut?

Right now cannabis is regulated as much as it can get, because they don't allow you to grow it.

By making it legal, taxing and regulating, they are decreasing regulation significantly.

[dannno]

I have a feeling that once it is finally legalized it will be taxed and regulated to the point where it will still be cheaper and easier buying it underground.

That's cool, at least they won't be throwing people in jail for having a bag on them.

[dannno]

Have you smoked any yet? If so, how was it?

I rolled two cigs when one of my friends came down and we each had one... but the tobacco still wasn't shredded properly, I'd just cut it up with a knife. So it burned ok, not too many problems keeping it lit.. but it burned a little on the slow side. Tasted like a cig. Felt like a cig. So I guess it worked out ok.

[Bruno]

I rolled two cigs when one of my friends came down and we each had one... but the tobacco still wasn't shredded properly, I'd just cut it up with a knife. So it burned ok, not too many problems keeping it lit.. but it burned a little on the slow side. Tasted like a cig. Felt like a cig. So I guess it worked out ok.

Much like growing your own of anything, it probably tasted better because you grew it yourself, or was at least rewarding for that reason.

I don't smoke tobacco anymore, but that would have been cool to have grown my own when I did.

[dannno]

Much like growing your own of anything, it probably tasted better because you grew it yourself, or was at least rewarding for that reason.

I don't smoke tobacco anymore, but that would have been cool to have grown my own when I did.

Ya I like having a cig once in a while after a few drinks, but otherwise I can't smoke them.. I end up having maybe a couple or so a year. Cigs are just too harsh, although American Spirits are a bit better than the big brands with all of their additives.. But now with the safe burning cig I'm scared to smoke any of them.

[Rael]

Bubs, did you start your tobbaco from seed? I tried to grow some from seed but had a hard time getting them to germinate and getting the few seedlings to stay alive.

Did you happen to try making dip or chew out of what you grew?

[dannno]

Bubs, did you start your tobbaco from seed? I tried to grow some from seed but had a hard time getting them to germinate and getting the few seedlings to stay alive.

Did you happen to try making dip or chew out of what you grew?

I got my tobacco seeds from this site and they germinated pretty easily, I got

Wild or Sacred
(Nicotiana rustica) - A wild tobacco originating in Mexico but widely cultivated throughout North America by native peoples for ceremonial purposes.

http://www.victoryseeds.com/tobacco/index.html


Haven't tried making anything out of it, it's still in whole leaf form stuffed in a gigantic ziplock bag. Biggest lid you've ever seen (I didn't know what 'lid' meant until a couple days ago, which is amazing cause I've been trying to figure it out for some time :D)

[dannno]

She had a moist vagina
I preferred her to any other

Marijuana (x11)


YouTube - Nirvana - Moist Vagina (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Pn4TQ2YIQg)

[andrewh817]

And you don't have to pay taxes if you buy it on the black market once it's legal.. but you also won't have fucking cops throwing you in jail for possessing the substance. That is the main goal here.

You may not have to pay taxes but the price of street weed is going to rise, and cops are probably going to check if you have a state tax sticker or not.....

[MichelleHeart]

Also, what grinds my gears even more is the people who say "legalize and TAX THE HELL OUT OF IT".

Oh my gawd. Every lefty I encounter can't resist adding that last part. They love their Nanny State. :p

[nayjevin]

Walter Block touches on Libertarian implications of situations such as this:

http://libertarianpapers.org/articles/2010/lp-2-6.pdf

(where 'legalization' is in line with NAP, except that it involves taxation, which is a violation of the NAP)