DHS & FBI Conduct Terror Raids at Multiple Michigan Locations [Archive]

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sharpsteve2003

03-28-2010, 12:56 AM

Video
Homeland Security, FBI Raids Militias in Multiple States?
YouTube - Homeland Security, FBI Raid Militias in Multiple States 1/2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uyak-E5gTAY)

Part 2
Homeland Security, FBI Raid Militias in Multiple States 2/2
YouTube - Homeland Security, FBI Raid Militias in Multiple States 2/2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJk3TcMRg5E)

Digg it
FBI, Homeland Security Raid Militias in Michigan
http://digg.com/d31MrCE

WXYZ) - The FBI was conducting raids Saturday night at multiple locations in southeast Michigan.

Action News has learned Homeland Security and the Joint Anti-terrorism Task Force is also involved in a major operation.

Federal officials would not say who they were targeting or where, but the FBI has set up a command center at the Washtenaw County Sheriff's Department in Ann Arbor, where they have brought in two satellite trucks and a radio tower.

Agents have also obtained search warrants and multiple arrests have been made.

http://www.wxyz.com/news/story/FBI-Conducts-Raids/eE6ZljBWa0uFOMUdtOLzvw.cspx

Update: 6:17am
Apparently they are rounding up militia members...listen in
http://www.militiaradio.com/updated-sitrep/

FBI agents raid Hammond location
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/03/fbi-agents-raid-hammond-location.html

Police, federal agents in raids in Sandusky, Huron
http://www.sanduskyregister.com/articles/2010/03/27/front/doc4bae9ec40d713435821346.txt

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 12:58 AM

The scoops are on the way.

RideTheDirt

03-28-2010, 01:53 AM

The scoops are on the way.
Where??

dannno

03-28-2010, 02:17 AM

The scoops are on the way.

YouTube - SOYLENT GREEN dystopia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABBQw6Ffbb8)

hillbilly123069

03-28-2010, 03:03 AM

You can bet they're going on elsewhere. This is just one that we caught.

sharpsteve2003

03-28-2010, 04:19 AM

Bump for Updates added to OP

sharpsteve2003

03-28-2010, 04:34 AM

http://www.militiaradio.com/updated-sitrep/

[04:13] I just left a shouting match about 20 minutes ago with a little over a hundred militiamen who are on the move right now. The arguement was over not if but rather where to hit them. Trying to calm them down was useless and they are not going to let this lie. They will identify the straglers or pickets first and wipe them out. By what the radiio crew said the recon teams have all of the hiddy holes
[04:14] …IDed for those they moved in and the group is infiltrating to site as we speak. I hope the locals are smart enough to step out of the way.
[04:16] this is interesting for we may have live vids from the epicanter as it developes.
[04:16] …epicenter…

tangent4ronpaul

03-28-2010, 04:37 AM

[04:13] I just left a shouting match about 20 minutes ago with a little over a hundred militiamen who are on the move right now. The arguement was over not if but rather where to hit them. Trying to calm them down was useless and they are not going to let this lie.

This is going to get ugly. :(

-t

tangent4ronpaul

03-28-2010, 05:37 AM

The people being picked up were being questioned about who was talking about threats. 10 Democrats and 2 Republicans have reported being threatened re: the Health Care vote and received extra SS protection. A few congressional offices have had bricks thrown through their windows. That might be what this is about.

MN Patriot

03-28-2010, 06:41 AM

Detroit has a large number of Muslims. Could be related to that.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/22978954/detail.html

FBI Conducts Raids In SE Michigan
At Least One Person Arrested

The FBI has raided Muslim groups in the past:

Mich. Muslim group to probe mosque leader's death (http://www.9and10news.com/Category/Story/?id=213989&cID=2)

tangent4ronpaul

03-28-2010, 06:43 AM

It's the Militia's. Every Militia group in the country is going crazy. The traffic is insane.

-t

amy31416

03-28-2010, 06:50 AM

It's the Militia's. Every Militia group in the country is going crazy. The traffic is insane.

-t

Crap...

chudrockz

03-28-2010, 07:03 AM

Could turn out to be nothing, or it could get REALLY bad quick. :mad:

catdd

03-28-2010, 07:21 AM

torchbearer

03-28-2010, 07:30 AM

did i miss the first shots of the revolution?

catdd

03-28-2010, 07:32 AM

did i miss the first shots of the revolution?

Depends on whether we are going to allow them to pick us off one at a time or not.

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 07:33 AM

did i miss the first shots of the revolution?
Not if you are here posting.

I just got online. will be checking into.
:eek:

torchbearer

03-28-2010, 07:41 AM

Depends on whether we are going to allow them to pick us off one at a time or not.

a database of people willing to stand up for their rights would be nice.
take a page from bin laden when fighting the despots.

chudrockz

03-28-2010, 07:48 AM

You'd think a thing like this would be HUGE news, but a brief look at CNN and Faux News didn't turn up anything. What's up with that, I wonder?

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 07:48 AM

They hit a funeral. (they like doing that.)
6 in custody, some evaded.
Adrian militia.

Looking for more.

catdd

03-28-2010, 07:50 AM

They hit a funeral. (they like doing that.)
6 in custody, some evaded.
Adrian militia.

Looking for more.

Report came in of a similar raid in CA. http://wellregulatedamericanmilitias.com/forum/topics/fbi-jatf-conducting-raids-in

Unconfirmed reports coming in from Indiana and Ohio.

phill4paul

03-28-2010, 08:04 AM

Please keep the links coming.

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 08:08 AM

Report came in of a similar raid in CA. http://wellregulatedamericanmilitias.com/forum/topics/fbi-jatf-conducting-raids-in

Seems multiple raids in several locations.
They are NOT targeting Muslims. Though that is the speculation on some comments.
One known Patriot, in custody.

Far to my south. but will be watching.
:(

catdd

03-28-2010, 08:09 AM

Seems multiple raids in several locations.
They are NOT targeting Muslims. Though that is the speculation on some comments.
One known Patriot, in custody.

Far to my south. but will be watching.
:(

http://mediaelites.com/2010/03/28/fbi-homeland-security-joint-terrorism-task-force-conduct-mysterious-raids-in-ann-arbor/

torchbearer

03-28-2010, 08:19 AM

http://annarborchronicle.com/2010/03/28/washtenaw-fbi-raids/
http://www.wxyz.com/mostpopular/story/FBI-Conducts-Raids/eE6ZljBWa0uFOMUdtOLzvw.cspx

phill4paul

03-28-2010, 08:23 AM

http://lunaticoutpost.com/Topic-FBI-on-the-Move-the-Michigan-Militia

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 08:26 AM

http://mediaelites.com/2010/03/28/fbi-homeland-security-joint-terrorism-task-force-conduct-mysterious-raids-in-ann-arbor/

Thanks.
Reports that Hutaree, is in custody.
Again, This is an attack on Patriots. Without doubt.
And seems widespread.

torchbearer

03-28-2010, 08:27 AM

Thanks.
Reports that Hutaree, is in custody.
Again, This is an attack on Patriots. Without doubt.
And seems widespread.

So this is how the jews felt in germany when the jackboots were rounding them up.

MelissaWV

03-28-2010, 08:29 AM

Thanks.
Reports that Hutaree, is in custody.
Again, This is an attack on Patriots. Without doubt.
And seems widespread.

Damn.

You know, I read the thread title, and immediately thought of you. Glad you're not in a cage or in a morgue, pcos.

How convenient that, just after the Government is threatened, the Government is carrying out violence on its own people. Perhaps to have been "fair," they should have just called these homes and threatened to shoot them, or threw bricks through the windows... but no... that's not how Government works. :mad:

pacelli

03-28-2010, 08:33 AM

Any updates on the status of the Koernke's and co-host Don?

angelatc

03-28-2010, 08:34 AM

They will tie this to the TEA parties, too. They can't come up with any evidence of actual violence on the right, so they're just making something up.

tangent4ronpaul

03-28-2010, 08:35 AM

www.mibbit.com
#libertytreeradio

Cowlesy

03-28-2010, 08:37 AM

They will tie this to the TEA parties, too. They can't come up with any evidence of actual violence on the right, so they're just making something up.

Guaranteed MS-NBC and the NYT will do so.

My speculation is the Feds have been building cases on lots of these guys for a long time, and just waited to have a natural-sounding reason to go round them up. Stupak is from Michigan, right? So one of them probably made a threatening comment about him (again, just my speculation), and the Feds said, "Hey, we can use this as a reason," and operations commenced.

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 08:41 AM

Damn.

You know, I read the thread title, and immediately thought of you. Glad you're not in a cage or in a morgue, pcos.

How convenient that, just after the Government is threatened, the Government is carrying out violence on its own people. Perhaps to have been "fair," they should have just called these homes and threatened to shoot them, or threw bricks through the windows... but no... that's not how Government works. :mad:

Nope, I am a small fish. Hopefully a slippery one.

The cage Is likely, but not for long.
I have expected the Government to attack first. None of the folks (at least those I know of) have done anything but train and prepare.
I suspect this has to do with Mike Vanderboegh calling for action. I was disappointed in that.
But it is expected.

sharpsteve2003

03-28-2010, 08:43 AM

This from The Michigan Militia

MICHIGANMILITIA.COM and the SMVM has NOT been "raided" by the FBI. We do nothing illegal.
http://www.michiganmilitia.com/

Must be a different Militia.

and Infowars now has picked up the story
http://www.infowars.com/large-fbi-homeland-security-operation-targets-michigan-militia/

pacelli

03-28-2010, 08:46 AM

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 08:51 AM

http://www.awrm.org/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=26&t=000139#000010

Information we are receiving suggests that an anti- terrorism task force of the United States Government raided the funeral of an Ann Arbor Michigan patriot. Apparently 100s were in attendance and all were detained for further questioning. We are being told 6 have been arrested thus far but there has been no discussion as to what the charges were. The task force descended on the group in mourning "guns drawn".

Advise extreme caution and make contact with your POCs for further instruction. You can keep up with this story as it develops on Militia Radio.

I suspect many have gone to ground and are using secure communications, little or no info will be available publicly.

mczerone

03-28-2010, 08:54 AM

Epicenter?

Federal officials would not say who they were targeting or where, but the FBI has set up a command center at the Washtenaw County Sheriff's Department in Ann Arbor, where they have brought in two satellite trucks and a radio tower.

Well, this explains the dream I had last night of a monstrosity of a surveillance vehicle driving down my subdivision street, laser scanning into every home. Creepy.

I'll probably have to go down to the Sheriff's Dept. for work sometime this week, I wonder how much security will be different from normal.

PS: they are doing major construction on the building complex for the Sheriff, Jail, and Municipal services, I'd bet that the raids were waiting on some specific project being completed before they'd pick up scores of people for "questioning". It'd be interesting to know which phases were just completed this week.

torchbearer

03-28-2010, 08:56 AM

http://www.awrm.org/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=26&t=000139#000010

I suspect many have gone to ground and are using secure communications, little or no info will be available publicly.

are they using HAM for their broadcast channel?

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 09:00 AM

are they using HAM for their broadcast channel?

Various , alternate, and diverse. Hopefully. ;)

I certainly would not post sensitive information in the open.

Cowlesy

03-28-2010, 09:02 AM

and Infowars now has picked up the story
http://www.infowars.com/large-fbi-homeland-security-operation-targets-michigan-militia/

See, this is why people have a hard time trusting the media.

This story has been on-going in the local media for well over 12 hours now. There's a veritable army of FBI agents and cops blocking roads, setting up checkpoints and raiding funerals.

And there is not single peep from the mainstream media, no Fox News Alert, nothing.

Infowars is it. And they can only regurgitate what the local media are reporting.

So where's the national media? Are they on the government/media conference call all getting their stories straight about what to report before going to print/television?

What a joke our media is. And for all the Feds reading this story or monitoring the thread, stuff like this (the lack of transparency) is why people are going to laugh at whatever canned report ultimately ends up at the NYT/CNN/Fox.

mczerone

03-28-2010, 09:05 AM

phill4paul

03-28-2010, 09:06 AM

So where's the national media? Are they on the government/media conference call all getting their stories straight about what to report before going to print/television?

They have not received their final cover story yet. The feds are awaiting the final outcome before issuing it. Many events could affect which pre-written story is the one released.

UtahApocalypse

03-28-2010, 09:10 AM

Good luck all. Its Bug Out time.

mczerone

03-28-2010, 09:14 AM

They have not received their final cover story yet. The feds are awaiting the final outcome before issuing it. Many events could affect which pre-written story is the one released.

And that's the problem: Major media doesn't do any investigation, they just relay "reports" from the feds and other govts.

Cowlesy

03-28-2010, 09:14 AM

Another local link:

FBI raids in Washtenaw, Lenawee counties tied to Michigan militia group (http://www.annarbor.com/news/fbi-conducts-raids-in-washtenaw-lenawee-counties/)

Good links in the comments, pcosmar was spot on calling the group:

So they rounded up these guys???

(related story of the locals asking for I think the same people's help to search for missing people)

http://www.annarbor.com/news/bridgewater-township-turns-to-militia-for-help/

Bridgewater Township Supervisor Jolea Mull has twice sought help from militia members this year to search for missing township residents.

The move is drawing criticism from militia watchdog groups, who say Mull is legitimizing an extreme right-wing movement that has a history of being associated with criminal activity.

And the partnership comes as the militia movement is exploding across the country, driven by fears of economic collapse and the potential for a crackdown on gun rights under the Obama administration, watchdog groups say.

About 50 militia members from five units live in Washtenaw County, militia leaders say. They are survivalists, who favor larger local government and a smaller federal government. Members are fiercely protective of their free speech and gun rights.

When Mull learned from Washtenaw County sheriff's deputies that a township woman was missing Jan. 13, she contacted local militia leader Jimmy Schiel.

“She said, ‘Hey, we need help to do a ground search for Anna-Maria Wheeker,” Schiel recalls of their phone conversation that morning. “I said, ‘So you want the militia?' And she said, ‘Yes.”
032310michigan-militia1.jpg

Fritz Hartgers, a member of the West Michigan Volunteer Militia, practices firing his AR-15 at the firing range during the Michigan Militia training at Island Lake Recreation Area March 6.

Angela Cesere | AnnArbor.com

Schiel, a member of the Washtenaw County-based Michigan Militia Corps Wolverines, 9th Division, 13th Brigade, started making phone calls. He quickly rounded up three members from his unit and three from the Lenawee County-based Hutaree, 8th Division, 20th Brigade.

They responded to the township hall with two search dogs, backpacks containing medical supplies and a non-militia volunteer on horseback. They met with deputies, firefighters and other volunteers before fanning out in the area to search for Wheeker.

Wheeker, a 45-year-old mother of four, was found dead on her roughly 20-acre property. She died of hypothermia, but the manner of death was not determined, the county medical examiner's office said. Wheeker had taken more anxiety medication than normal, officials said.

While the result was tragic, Schiel said, it was a significant event in his 15 years with the militia unit. “That was the very first time we were deployed in an official capacity,” Schiel said.

Mull, who said she was pleased with the militia’s response, contacted Schiel again Feb. 17 when deputies told her 56-year-old Robert Melvin Wise was missing.

Four members from Schiel’s unit, one from Hutaree and a member from a Livingston County unit responded. They were given the task of driving around Jackson County to look for Wise on state hunting grounds.

Wise was found dead in the driver’s seat of a car in Freedom Township. He died of carbon monoxide poisoning, and the manner of death was suicide, the county medical examiner’s office said.

Mark Potok, director of the Intelligence Project at the Montgomery, Ala.-based Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors extremist groups, questioned why an elected official would reach out to the militia.

The militia movement has been involved in an “enormous amount of criminal violence” and “huge number of domestic terror plots,” Potok said.
032310michigan-militia-2.jpg

Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia member Rusty W. stands with a group of militia members in the parking lot of the firing range for training.

Angela Cesere | AnnArbor.com

“It certainly seems poorly advised to be kind, to ask people who believe in completely false conspiracy theories and see the government largely as an enemy to help in law enforcement matters,” Potok said. “I don’t see how that could work out well.”

Mull, a Republican, turned to the militia because of their training in search and rescue techniques, familiarity with the local community and willingness to help, she said in a prepared statement. About 1,700 people live in Bridgewater Township in southwestern Washtenaw County.

“Unfortunately, in both cases, the searches ended tragically, but there’s an old cliché that says, ‘You are either part of the problem or part of the solution," she said. "It is clear to me from these experiences that our local militia is part of the solution."

“Based on what I have observed of our local militia’s efforts, I highly recommend that other municipalities coordinate with and get to know their local militia members."

The sheriff’s department was grateful for the help, said Derrick Jackson, the department’s director of community engagement.

“The volunteers were helpful whether they were militia, whether they were residents of that community or friends of elected officials,” Jackson said. “They did exactly what we asked of them.”

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 09:14 AM

tangent4ronpaul

03-28-2010, 09:18 AM

local scanner feed:
http://www.militiaradio.com/

kind of slow - apparently it was crazy w/ traffic earlier...

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 09:20 AM

Good luck all. Its Bug Out time.

Good luck, stay safe, and report back once you get the all-clear.

sharpsteve2003

03-28-2010, 09:22 AM

Digg it
FBI, Homeland Security Raid Militias in Michigan
http://digg.com/d31MrCE

mczerone

03-28-2010, 09:24 AM

So they rounded up these guys???

(related story of the locals asking for I think the same people's help to search for missing people)

http://www.annarbor.com/news/bridgewater-township-turns-to-militia-for-help/

I guess they took Mull's suggestion:

Mull, a Republican, turned to the militia because of their training in search and rescue techniques, familiarity with the local community and willingness to help, she said in a prepared statement. About 1,700 people live in Bridgewater Township in southwestern Washtenaw County.

“Unfortunately, in both cases, the searches ended tragically, but there’s an old cliché that says, ‘You are either part of the problem or part of the solution," she said. "It is clear to me from these experiences that our local militia is part of the solution."

“Based on what I have observed of our local militia’s efforts, I highly recommend that other municipalities coordinate with and get to know their local militia members."

So what do we do when its obvious that the fed govt is part of the problem, and they are arresting part of the solution without even releasing charges or giving a scope of investigation?

I'm tempted to go down to the jail and do some snooping, but I can't risk it.

It should be obvious to everyone that we are all terrorists now, the govt just applies that label whenever they want to use the DHS to round up people.

torchbearer

03-28-2010, 09:27 AM

I guess they took Mull's suggestion:

So what do we do when its obvious that the fed govt is part of the problem, and they are arresting part of the solution without even releasing charges or giving a scope of investigation?

I'm tempted to go down to the jail and do some snooping, but I can't risk it.

It should be obvious to everyone that we are all terrorists now, the govt just applies that label whenever they want to use the DHS to round up people.

if you do go to the jail, bring a large group, and everyone needs cameras and mics.

catdd

03-28-2010, 09:27 AM

Good luck all. Its Bug Out time.

Good luck and keep your powder dry.

Live_Free_Or_Die

03-28-2010, 09:50 AM

There are FBI raids going on in other cities:

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/03/fbi-agents-raid-hammond-location.html

http://www.sanduskyregister.com/articles/2010/03/27/front/doc4bae9ec40d713435821346.txt

amy31416

03-28-2010, 10:11 AM

Starting to hit pretty close to home...

New2Libertarianism

03-28-2010, 10:17 AM

Those people could actually be crazy and planned to kill people, so I wouldn't be freaking out just yet.

torchbearer

03-28-2010, 10:18 AM

Those people could actually be crazy and planned to kill people, so I wouldn't be freaking out just yet.

yeah, i think the fbi is planning on killing people.

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 10:21 AM

Those people could actually be crazy and planned to kill people, so I wouldn't be freaking out just yet.

Even if this were true, I don't believe that pre-crime is an indictable offense yet...

phill4paul

03-28-2010, 10:26 AM

yeah, i think the fbi is planning on killing people.

;):p

puppetmaster

03-28-2010, 10:28 AM

They are coming for us boys....and girls, someday, somewhere

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 10:28 AM

Those people could actually be crazy and planned to kill people, so I wouldn't be freaking out just yet.

Odd response.
Since it is reported that"those People " have been working with local authorities in search and rescue and are involved in the community.
The militia is defensive. They prepare for local defense.
Yeah, dangerous bunch.:rolleyes:

torchbearer

03-28-2010, 10:30 AM

;):p

I was just assuming he was talking about the FBI when he state:

Those people could actually be crazy and planned to kill people
Of course, the DEA and ATF would fit into that category too.

mrsat_98

03-28-2010, 10:30 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/03/28/arrests-alleged-militia-activity-midwest/

Seven people have been arrested for allegedly selling pipe bombs in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana, Fox News has learned.

Seven people have been arrested for allegedly selling pipe bombs in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana, Fox News has learned.

The arrests and raids in Michigan and Indianapolis are related to alleged militia activity in the region, but are not related to international terrorism. There is not a current threat to the public, according to a law enforcement source.

An official for the FBI's Michigan bureau said initial court appearances are expected in Michigan on Monday.

MN Patriot

03-28-2010, 10:31 AM

[QUOTE=MN Patriot;2616479]"Detroit has a large number of Muslims. Could be related to that."

Don't kid yourself. Those are militias they are targeting, and this is the offensive they've been talking about. Reports of similar raids are coming out of California.

I'm not kidding myself. Just paying attention to what the facts are, and so far there are no reliable reports exactly what is happening. So far no shots have been fired, as far as we know.

I've sent several news tips to Drudge, and still no mention there. Help Drudge get the breaking story by sending him links with a short message: http://www.drudgereport.com/

Now we need to pay close attention to how the Obama administration and the media treat this event. They may be trying to whip up anti-Tea Party sentiment, or are monitoring this and other forums to see how many people are actually tuned in to the Liberty Movement as active participants.

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 10:35 AM

phill4paul

03-28-2010, 10:39 AM

I call bullshit.
Who the hell "sells" pipe bombs? They can be made out of common materials by any 10 year old kid. and often are.
Sounds more like a cover story or merely an excuse.

Pretty much what I thought the initial story would be after reading the ATF was on the scene.

sharpsteve2003

03-28-2010, 10:43 AM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36071083/ns/local_news-detroit_mi/

Michigan State Police said the raids are not terror related, but would not comment further.

Police said one person driving up from Toledo, Ohio was arrested and then taken in for questioning.

Police also said they were looking for at least one person.

MN Patriot

03-28-2010, 10:47 AM

I call bullshit.
Who the hell "sells" pipe bombs? They can be made out of common materials by any 10 year old kid. and often are.
Sounds more like a cover story or merely an excuse.

Yeah, go to YouTube and search for pipe bomb. Dozens if not hundreds of videos of kids playing around with homemade pipe bombs blowing up TV, microwaves, junk cars, etc. Plus instructions how to do it, not hard at all.

This sounds like a set up. Some FBI infiltrator pestered somebody in a militia to make pipe bombs and sell them to him so he can blow up somebody. Why go through the bother of buying a homemade pipe bomb when you can just build one yourself.

But the ignorant, easily manipulated masses won't figure that out.

sharpsteve2003

03-28-2010, 10:52 AM

A little more info
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100328/NEWS02/100329720

Cowlesy

03-28-2010, 11:06 AM

I find it somewhat ironic that when I type "militia raid michigan" into Google, the first site that pops up is DailyKos, and the second is DailyPaul lol

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 11:13 AM

I find it somewhat ironic that when I type "militia raid michigan" into Google, the first site that pops up is DailyKos, and the second is DailyPaul lol

Apparently there is a lot of interest in the story. across the political spectrum.

dwdollar

03-28-2010, 11:15 AM

www.mibbit.com
#libertytreeradio

What network is that? I'd like to use an IRC client.

puppetmaster

03-28-2010, 11:16 AM

guess its a hot topic now

phill4paul

03-28-2010, 11:18 AM

guess its a hot topic now

FBI/DHS/BATF raids are a conspiracy theory, Don'tchaknow?

moostraks

03-28-2010, 11:24 AM

oilboiler

03-28-2010, 11:26 AM

Stumbled upon this link from another forum. Target is a different group.

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2010/03/my-take-on-tri-state-raids-and-message.html

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 11:30 AM

Hmmm...

Well, not like this was a surprise.

It was made pretty clear what the new sheriff in town was up to when the MIAC report was broken.

Live_Free_Or_Die

03-28-2010, 11:30 AM

If the story is a case of pipe bombs it will be nothing new. Government has repeatedly played the role of agent provocateur regarding pipe bombs. As a matter of fact whenever someone mentions the phrase pipe bomb the first word that comes to mind is entrapment.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/atlanta-bomb-fbi-studies-pipe-bomb-link-to-us-militias-1330808.html

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=403975945&blogId=428963419&__preferredculture=en-US&__ipculture=en-US

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1891&dat=20030216&id=hoAkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7twFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4737,1609358

http://www.newcomm.org/content/view/1805/93/

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/14/nyregion/14bomb.html

http://www.afn.org/~afn54735/usnews1.html

amy31416

03-28-2010, 11:32 AM

So these guys are the alleged target? http://hutaree.com/

dwdollar

03-28-2010, 11:35 AM

What network is that? I'd like to use an IRC client.

Never mind I found it.

Server:
irc.ircstorm.net

Channel:
#libertytreeradio

fedup100

03-28-2010, 11:35 AM

So let me get this strait, THEY. the fed gov want the people to do something stupid so they can declare martial law?

If that 's so then why are they tip toeing around in the dead of the night quietly picking people off one by one?

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 11:37 AM

So let me get this strait, THEY. the fed gov want the people to do something stupid so they can declare Marshall law?

If that 's so then why are they tip toeing around in the dead of the night quietly picking people off one by one?

Man, I hate to pick nits, but this is a real pet peeve of mine...

Martial law, not Marshall law.

sharpsteve2003

03-28-2010, 11:37 AM

I find it somewhat ironic that when I type "militia raid michigan" into Google, the first site that pops up is DailyKos, and the second is DailyPaul lol

I could tell a lib/left site had picked up this story because the videos are getting comments now that reflect that.

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 11:38 AM

Stumbled upon this link from another forum. Target is a different group.

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2010/03/my-take-on-tri-state-raids-and-message.html

I would use extreme caution with both Mike and Sipsey St. He is pointing blame at folks involved in community service and defensive training.. But at the same time calling and inciting violence himself.

Beware of provocateurs.
And watch your 6.

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 11:39 AM

0852CDT. Here's my take on these raids so far, and I hope to Hell the Three Letters get this message before they do something stupid.

As near as I can determine, no shots have been fired, no one has been killed and no houses or churches have burned down. I know that muster alerts have gone out to units all over the country, and people are getting ready and awaiting further word.

But here's the deal, Feds. If you kill anyone or burn somebody's house or church down with them inside, you will have started a civil war, no matter how despicable the Hutaree are, or how crazy, or how provocative. If that happens, there will be NOTHING responsible leaders of the constitutional militia movement will be able to do from our side to stop it. You will have crossed the Rubicon.

The Hutaree have indicated in the past that, much like John Brown, they WANTED to start a civil war, which is why no responsible militia group in Michigan was willing to ally with them.

But if you give them what they want, there will be nothing anybody else can do to stop it, you stupid blundering bastards.

May God have mercy on our country, its arrogant government and uncomprehending people but in any case, may God save the Republic.

Mike Vanderboegh

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2010/03/my-take-on-tri-state-raids-and-message.html

amy31416

03-28-2010, 11:40 AM

Man, I hate to pick nits, but this is a real pet peeve of mine...

Martial law, not Marshall law.

Could be worse...I've seen "Marital" Law.

That brings many odd images to mind.

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 11:40 AM

Could be worse...I've seen "Marital" Law.

That brings many odd images to mind.

:confused::eek::D

MN Patriot

03-28-2010, 11:41 AM

Good grief...the msm story sounds canned. Does seem like they are test driving a round up of the disgruntled. Have felt from the get go they are baiting with the healthcare stories. Boys and their toys- they haven't been making all those pretty toys available to the local law thugs for no reason.

The federal government is arming many of its agencies, IRS, DOE, others. Like they are gearing up for a rebellion.

I wouldn't be surprised if they are monitoring all of these forums, see how much sympathy they get, how many people are actively interested in the erosion of our liberties.

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 11:43 AM

So these guys are the alleged target? http://hutaree.com/

Yes, at least in part.
They were attending a funeral (or Wake) for a member. Likely the one mentioned on the site.

They were recently mentioned in a news story (link posted earlier) assisting Local LE in search and rescue ops.

:(

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 11:45 AM

The federal government is arming many of its agencies, IRS, DOE, others. Like they are gearing up for a rebellion.

I wouldn't be surprised if they are monitoring all of these forums, see how much sympathy they get, how many people are actively interested in the erosion of our liberties.

Josh ran off some DHS server IPs a year or so ago.

Normally I would have said yes, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Now, I don't know, they seem to be concentrating their efforts at Mylinkedinfacespace more. Those sites are a fed's playground.

That being said, I'd never dismiss the possibility.:mad:

tangent4ronpaul

03-28-2010, 11:46 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268726,00.html

Feds Raid Alabama Militia Group, Uncover Small Weapons Arsenal

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 11:46 AM

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2010/03/my-take-on-tri-state-raids-and-message.html

I saw that.
Odd when the fact are contrary to that assesment and it was MIKE that was calling for violence himself.

Sorry , I watch and read him, but don't trust him.

amy31416

03-28-2010, 11:46 AM

Yes, at least in part.
They were attending a funeral (or Wake) for a member. Likely the one mentioned on the site.

They were recently mentioned in a news story (link posted earlier) assisting Local LE in search and rescue ops.

:(

I don't believe for a second that those guys couldn't make their own pipe bombs, if they wanted to.

Cowlesy

03-28-2010, 11:47 AM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268726,00.html

Feds Raid Alabama Militia Group, Uncover Small Weapons Arsenal

April 27, 2007.

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 11:48 AM

I saw that.
Odd when the fact are contrary to that assesment and it was MIKE that was calling for violence himself.

Sorry , I watch and read him, but don't trust him.

Not saying you should.

I don't know the man, so I can't vouch for him in any way.

dwdollar

03-28-2010, 11:48 AM

Josh ran off some DHS server IPs a year or so ago.

Normally I would have said yes, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Now, I don't know, they seem to be concentrating their efforts at Mylinkedinfacespace more. Those sites are a fed's playground.

That being said, I'd never dismiss the possibility.:mad:

I'm ignorant. What is that?

...

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 11:51 AM

I'm ignorant. What is that?

...

LoL...just my tongue in cheek way of putting together all the "social networking" sites in one phrase.

Myspace - FaceBook - LinkedIn and so on...

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 11:52 AM

I don't believe for a second that those guys couldn't make their own pipe bombs, if they wanted to.
I have no doubt that the 10 yr old boys that are visiting my home could produce Pipe bombs.

These are folks that train with High power weapons, Squad and team tactics, practice first aid and survival skills.
They are also known and active in their community working WITH local Authorities.

Selling firecrackers is not likely.

dwdollar

03-28-2010, 11:53 AM

LoL...just my tongue in cheek way of putting together all the "social networking" sites in one phrase.

Myspace - FaceBook - LinkedIn and so on...

Got ya. Didn't want to be missing anything. :)

AuH20

03-28-2010, 11:54 AM

I think the crackdown is limited to the Hutaree, who are kinda OUT THERE if you know what I mean.

oilboiler

03-28-2010, 11:55 AM

I would use extreme caution with both Mike and Sipsey St. He is pointing blame at folks involved in community service and defensive training.. But at the same time calling and inciting violence himself.

Beware of provocateurs.
And watch your 6.

Thanks. Know nothing about him, found the link in another discussion. Right now I am just trying to see if this is the start of something bigger. There has been a lot of propaganda being thrown about lately, so my antennae are up.

dr. hfn

03-28-2010, 11:56 AM

Guerrilla Warfare books:

http://www.amazon.com/Guerrilla-Warfare-Ernesto-Che-Guevara/dp/0803270755

http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Volunteers-Irish-Republican-Army/dp/1581605706/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269798943&sr=1-12

http://www.amazon.com/Anarchist-Cookbook-William-Powell/dp/0974458902/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269798963&sr=1-1

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 11:57 AM

puppetmaster

03-28-2010, 11:57 AM

ironic...the story is getting buried here, just like cnn or fox, or msnbc

Cowlesy

03-28-2010, 11:59 AM

ironic...the story is getting buried here, just like cnn or fox, or msnbc

BS. It's been at the top of the board all day on New Posts and is over 100 posts and 1,000 views. Sometimes items in Hot Topics are actually HOT TOPICS and not conspiracy stuff.

sharpsteve2003

03-28-2010, 12:00 PM

ironic...the story is getting buried here, just like cnn or fox, or msnbc

I would like to know why. seems odd.

amy31416

03-28-2010, 12:00 PM

Thought just occurred to me...

At least "they" appear to have gone through the motions correctly, obtaining a warrant and so on.

Maybe all our yelling is doing some good.

Not convinced, just pondering...

I'll be convinced if, and only if, they had a damned good reason to do this. And the Hutaree being "out there" isn't good enough, nor would I believe that they're selling pipe-bombs.

But yeah, I was semi-surprised that they actually obtained a warrant.

mrsat_98

03-28-2010, 12:03 PM

ooops

amy31416

03-28-2010, 12:05 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268726,00.html

COLLINSVILLE, Ala. — Federal and state agents have uncovered a small arsenal of home-made weapons that included a rocket launcher, 130 hand grenades and 70 improvised explosive devices (IEDs) similiar to the kind used by insurgents against American GIs in Iraq.

Agents also recovered enough live ammo to fill a U-Haul trailer, U.S. Attorney Alice Martin said Thursday. Agents earlier that day busted the caches of a group calling itself "The Free Militia."

Eric Kehn, a spokesman with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosive, said four search warrants were executed in the operation, and six arrests were made.

Those arrested include: Raymond Kirk Dillard, a.k.a. Jeff Osborne, 46 of Collinsville, Ala.; Adam Lynn Cunningham, 41, also of Collinsville; Bonnell Hughes, a.k.a. Buster Hughes, 57, of Crossville, Ala.; Michael Wayne Bobo, 30, of Trussville, Ala.; Randall Garrett Cole, 22, of Gadsden, Ala.; and James Ray McElroy, 20, of Collinsville.

All six of the suspects belonged to "The Free Militia," officials said without releasing any information about the group.

"Deadly explosives have been removed from these communities due to outstanding investigative efforts," Martin said. "All evidence developed will be presented quickly to a federal grand jury. We will also ask that those arrested be detained without bond."

At least five bomb teams were on the scene in case explosives were found during the searches.

Officials said ATF agents encountered booby traps at one of the search sites.

The weapons cache also included a machine gun, a short barreled shot-gun, two silencers, numerous other firearms, 2500 rounds of ammunition, explosive components, and commercial fireworks. Agents also found more than 120 marijuana plants, Martin said.

One of the raids took place at a trailer and another at a house not far from Collinsville School.

"Certinly, they're [militias] always fomenting talk ... they were trying to acquire, stockpile weapons for what they see as maybe some inevitable conflict. This is pretty common in militia groups — they sort of gravitate toward all these exotic military weapons," ATF Special Agent in Charge Jim Cavanaugh in Nashville, Tenn., told FOX News on Friday.

But he said it's not common to find the types of improvised rifle grenades found in Thursday's raid. It's a "very unusual seizure," he said.

Those in custody aren't being charged with any plot to use the grenades against anyone, however, but will be charged with weapons possession and stockpiling.

"These are people who operate in sort of a fringe paranoia world, they feel they need all these weapons to exist, they're somewhat fearful," Cavanaugh said.

School district officials cancelled classes for about 650 students from grades kindergarten through 12 because of the swarm of police vehicles.

"We were going to delay school but because of the possibility of explosives at the residences, we felt it was safer not to have school," DeKalb Sheriff Jimmy Harris said.

Sources told FOX News that the six suspects were involved in manufacturing homemade weapons and explosives, and that one of the suspects had tried to sell hand grenades to undercover federal agents. The group has also allegedly been involved in the sales and distribution of other types of explosive devices and weapons, but the nature of these has not yet been revealed.

"Today's arrest and search warrants have been significant due to the success of the combined efforts by ATF, as well as our state, local and federal partners," Cavanaugh said Thursday. "The communities in the area are safer, considering the fact that large quantities of live grenades and other explosive materials have been safely removed. Excellent investigative team work led us to this point in our investigation."

That's from April 27th, 2007. :)

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 12:06 PM

April 27 2007

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268726,00.html

COLLINSVILLE, Ala. — Federal and state agents have uncovered a small arsenal of home-made weapons that included a rocket launcher, 130 hand grenades and 70 improvised explosive devices (IEDs) similiar to the kind used by insurgents against American GIs in Iraq.

Agents also recovered enough live ammo to fill a U-Haul trailer, U.S. Attorney Alice Martin said Thursday. Agents earlier that day busted the caches of a group calling itself "The Free Militia."

Eric Kehn, a spokesman with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosive, said four search warrants were executed in the operation, and six arrests were made.

Those arrested include: Raymond Kirk Dillard, a.k.a. Jeff Osborne, 46 of Collinsville, Ala.; Adam Lynn Cunningham, 41, also of Collinsville; Bonnell Hughes, a.k.a. Buster Hughes, 57, of Crossville, Ala.; Michael Wayne Bobo, 30, of Trussville, Ala.; Randall Garrett Cole, 22, of Gadsden, Ala.; and James Ray McElroy, 20, of Collinsville.

All six of the suspects belonged to "The Free Militia," officials said without releasing any information about the group.

"Deadly explosives have been removed from these communities due to outstanding investigative efforts," Martin said. "All evidence developed will be presented quickly to a federal grand jury. We will also ask that those arrested be detained without bond."

At least five bomb teams were on the scene in case explosives were found during the searches.

Officials said ATF agents encountered booby traps at one of the search sites.

The weapons cache also included a machine gun, a short barreled shot-gun, two silencers, numerous other firearms, 2500 rounds of ammunition, explosive components, and commercial fireworks. Agents also found more than 120 marijuana plants, Martin said.

One of the raids took place at a trailer and another at a house not far from Collinsville School.

"Certinly, they're [militias] always fomenting talk ... they were trying to acquire, stockpile weapons for what they see as maybe some inevitable conflict. This is pretty common in militia groups — they sort of gravitate toward all these exotic military weapons," ATF Special Agent in Charge Jim Cavanaugh in Nashville, Tenn., told FOX News on Friday.

But he said it's not common to find the types of improvised rifle grenades found in Thursday's raid. It's a "very unusual seizure," he said.

Those in custody aren't being charged with any plot to use the grenades against anyone, however, but will be charged with weapons possession and stockpiling.

"These are people who operate in sort of a fringe paranoia world, they feel they need all these weapons to exist, they're somewhat fearful," Cavanaugh said.

School district officials cancelled classes for about 650 students from grades kindergarten through 12 because of the swarm of police vehicles.

"We were going to delay school but because of the possibility of explosives at the residences, we felt it was safer not to have school," DeKalb Sheriff Jimmy Harris said.

Sources told FOX News that the six suspects were involved in manufacturing homemade weapons and explosives, and that one of the suspects had tried to sell hand grenades to undercover federal agents. The group has also allegedly been involved in the sales and distribution of other types of explosive devices and weapons, but the nature of these has not yet been revealed.

"Today's arrest and search warrants have been significant due to the success of the combined efforts by ATF, as well as our state, local and federal partners," Cavanaugh said Thursday. "The communities in the area are safer, considering the fact that large quantities of live grenades and other explosive materials have been safely removed. Excellent investigative team work led us to this point in our investigation."

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 12:07 PM

That's from April 27th, 2007. :)

One minute

damn

puppetmaster

03-28-2010, 12:07 PM

BS. It's been at the top of the board all day on New Posts and is over 100 posts and 1,000 views. Sometimes items in Hot Topics are actually HOT TOPICS and not conspiracy stuff.

That's my point, why is it getting classified with the conspiracy posts? This is a important political topic.

filed with the likes of: Fla. Man Cuts Eyeballs Out of Man who Looked at his Girlfriend, (no harm intended to original poster)

amy31416

03-28-2010, 12:08 PM

One minute

damn

I win!

(Well, actually Cowlesy does because he pointed that out when someone else posted it previously.)

joe e

03-28-2010, 12:12 PM

Ther pretext is Anti Terrorism. There document is MIAC. Fox and CNN will report when the spin is worked out. Beware agents provocateurs.

Cowlesy

03-28-2010, 12:12 PM

lol, deep breaths everyone.

tmosley

03-28-2010, 12:12 PM

BS. It's been at the top of the board all day on New Posts and is over 100 posts and 1,000 views. Sometimes items in Hot Topics are actually HOT TOPICS and not conspiracy stuff.

Seems to me that Hot Topics is indeed for things like flame wars, conspiracy theories, etc. This is an act of government aggression, and if anything belongs in the Civil Liberties forum (though due to its importance, it ought to be in General, where the most people can read it).

There are lots of other high post and view count threads that never get moved here.

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 12:13 PM

I win!

(Well, actually Cowlesy does because he pointed that out when someone else posted it previously.)

True that...;)

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 12:13 PM

I win!

(Well, actually Cowlesy does because he pointed that out when someone else posted it previously.)

Well if someone wished to, they could compile numerous links that make the obvious connection between "undercover sources" and pipe bombs. And even cases of planted pipe bombs by provocateurs.

There are enough to keep you busy for a while.
Enough to display a pattern. ;)

Cowlesy

03-28-2010, 12:14 PM

I flagged it (reported it) for everyone who is dieing for it to bring attention to our forum. That way Josh and Bryan can decide what they want to do with it.

AuH20

03-28-2010, 12:15 PM

If I was going to start a comprehensive propaganda campaign against the militia movement, I would start with the Hutaree. For one, they hate jews. That's the type of sensationalist information that the MSM delights in, so as to frame all the militia as being anti-Semitic.

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 12:16 PM

lol, deep breaths everyone.

Breathing fine, Calm . relaxed.

With a scanner in my ear. ;)

UtahApocalypse

03-28-2010, 12:16 PM

The most interesting thing to me is that in "conspiracy" circles it has always been said that when Martial Law, or Civil War was coming that Militias would be the FIRST to be rounded up. I also have read multiples rumors that this type of thing has happened in SEVERAL states including; but not limited to: Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, California, Texas, are the ones so far. This is NOT about some 'pipe bombs' in ONE group.

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 12:18 PM

, I would start with the Hutaree. For one, they hate jews. anti-Semitic.
:confused:
I was just looking through their site. I didn't see that.
Care to document that?

AuH20

03-28-2010, 12:20 PM

:confused:
I was just looking through their site. I didn't see that.
Care to document that?

Go to their forums and look for the 'Evil Jews' Category. ;)

http://www.hutaree.com/forum/index.php

amy31416

03-28-2010, 12:20 PM

:confused:
I was just looking through their site. I didn't see that.
Care to document that?

Here's a link to their forums:

http://www.hutaree.com/forum/

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 12:30 PM

Here's a link to their forums:

http://www.hutaree.com/forum/

I did look into the forums. Mostly I saw people posting from all over and several states.
I saw a lot of "stuff" in their forums, but little moderation.

And no.I did not read it all. Was looking for news and found none.

And some people make little distinction between Zionist (secular Government) and jewish (racial/religious).
I can fully understand the dislike for Israeli Politics.

eta. just went to check. Can't access that. Not registered user.
Are you?

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 12:31 PM

Talk about being an evil Jew and how we are taking over the world in our own private forum where no one else can see. Shalomi or something.

Seems pretty tongue in cheek.

Not a hotbed of antisemitism with 6 threads.

Can't read the threads anyways, without being a member.

puppetmaster

03-28-2010, 12:35 PM

I flagged it (reported it) for everyone who is dieing for it to bring attention to our forum. That way Josh and Bryan can decide what they want to do with it.

no worries, just saying

amy31416

03-28-2010, 12:39 PM

I can fully understand the dislike for Israeli Politics.

eta. just went to check. Can't access that. Not registered user.
Are you?

Certainly I understand distaste for Israeli politics.

And no, I didn't read it and am not a registered user, but regardless of what the charges are against them, stuff like that can be used to solidify public opinion against them and other militias.

AF might be right that it's tongue-in-cheek, but I doubt a judge and jury will be allowed to see it that way if that's the case.

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 12:43 PM

, I would start with the Hutaree. For one, they hate jews. anti-Semitic.

Seems pretty tongue in cheek.

Not a hotbed of antisemitism with 6 threads.

Can't read the threads anyways, without being a member.

Evil Jew Forum

Talk about being an evil Jew and how we are taking over the world in our own private forum where no one else can see. Shalomi or something.
6 Threads
last thread-19 April 17, 2009 07:24PM

And this is what you base a statement that "they Hate Jews" ?
And without reading any of the threads. :rolleyes:

You do understand that Christians consider themselves jews don't you?

amy31416

03-28-2010, 12:47 PM

My curiosity got the better of me and I registered...it's hardly anti-semitic. Just goofy stuff.

And there hasn't even been a post under that topic this year.

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 12:58 PM

My curiosity got the better of me and I registered...it's hardly anti-semitic. Just goofy stuff.

And there hasn't even been a post under that topic this year.

:D
I remember some saying about that word "assume".

No doubt it will be twisted and played up though.
:(

fedup100

03-28-2010, 12:59 PM

Man, I hate to pick nits, but this is a real pet peeve of mine...

Martial law, not Marshall law.

Sorry, thanks and changed.

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 01:04 PM

My curiosity got the better of me and I registered...it's hardly anti-semitic. Just goofy stuff.

And there hasn't even been a post under that topic this year.

Now you've gone and done it.

I'll have your bail standing by. :p

KCIndy

03-28-2010, 01:09 PM

My curiosity got the better of me and I registered...it's hardly anti-semitic. Just goofy stuff.
.

Now you've gone and done it.

I'll have your bail standing by. :p

LOL I was just thinking that! Looks like we'll have to have a Chip-In or "Bail Bomb" for Amy31416...

I was thinking about checking out that same site, but I figured right now the Feds are probably cataloging every IP address that hits it... :(

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 01:14 PM

Now you've gone and done it.

I'll have your bail standing by. :p

Most of these folks are good people and the militia is defensive, despite what the ADL/SPLC propaganda tries to push.
This is not new. But this is a new round of assaults and coming right behind a call for violence.

I suspect shenanigans. :(

amy31416

03-28-2010, 01:15 PM

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 01:25 PM

Ehhh...I already looked at the site, they have my IP address.

Being so scared of the Feds that I won't look into something that I'm curious about gets rather tedious after a while. I don't really care, but hey...the bail's appreciated, nerds in jail probably don't fare well. :p
2 Tim. 1:7

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Uriel999

03-28-2010, 01:32 PM

wow, I saw this thread before I left for work but didn't have time to look at it. Insane.

Old Ducker

03-28-2010, 01:39 PM

What's the lowdown on this? I'd rather not wade thru all the posts. I did a quick check at a few militia websites and saw no alarm bells...

dwdollar

03-28-2010, 01:40 PM

Ehhh...I already looked at the site, they have my IP address.

Being so scared of the Feds that I won't look into something that I'm curious about gets rather tedious after a while. I don't really care, but hey...the bail's appreciated, nerds in jail probably don't fare well. :p

Now that the news broke everyone will be checking it out. I wouldn't worry about it. They will be most concerned with IP Addresses visiting BEFORE the news broke.

...

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 01:48 PM

What's the lowdown on this? I'd rather not wade thru all the posts. I did a quick check at a few militia websites and saw no alarm bells...

Well the good news is that only a few were busted, and everyone else has gone to ground.
There is no chatter.
Mostly just passing around the few news reports there are and stomping out brushfires as they start.
Be aware.

fedup100

03-28-2010, 02:07 PM

Live discussion on now Sunday 1:05 Pacific with Mark Koernke.

Click on militia radio link

http://www.libertytreeradio.4mg.com/

Cowlesy

03-28-2010, 02:18 PM

Drudge has now picked it up with this link

http://detnews.com/article/20100328/METRO/3280313/Seven-arrested-in-FBI-raids-linked-to-Christian-militia-group=

phill4paul

03-28-2010, 02:24 PM

Drudge has now picked it up with this link

http://detnews.com/article/20100328/METRO/3280313/Seven-arrested-in-FBI-raids-linked-to-Christian-militia-group=

"Last night and into today the FBI conducted a raid against homes belonging to the Hutaree. They are a religious cult. They are not part of our militia community," he said.

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100328/METRO/3280313/Seven-arrested-in-FBI-raids-linked-to-Christian-militia-group=#ixzz0jVLvOBB2

And there you have it. Religious cult. Check. Firearms transgressions. Check. Following the pattern I anticipated. Next will be pedophilia charges.

dannno

03-28-2010, 02:57 PM

Next will be pedophilia allegations.

Fixed it for ya.

phill4paul

03-28-2010, 03:02 PM

Fixed it for ya.

Quite. :o

catdd

03-28-2010, 03:03 PM

"Last night and into today the FBI conducted a raid against homes belonging to the Hutaree. They are a religious cult. They are not part of our militia community," he said.

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100328/METRO/3280313/Seven-arrested-in-FBI-raids-linked-to-Christian-militia-group=#ixzz0jVLvOBB2

And there you have it. Religious cult. Check. Firearms transgressions. Check. Following the pattern I anticipated. Next will be pedophilia charges.

Yeah, they come up with some militia "spokesman" who's probably an FBI informant to throw the group under the bus.

tmosley

03-28-2010, 03:09 PM

What happened to the topic on DailyPaul?

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 03:10 PM

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&q=Agent+Provocateur+planted+bombs&start=60&sa=N&fp=bcdf8cbbf06dc4f

Some documented, some suspected.
Just sayin'
:(

jumping to conclusions may be good exercise, but it is poor analysis.

filmgeek

03-28-2010, 03:10 PM

What happened to the topic on DailyPaul?

*delurks*

Here ya go:

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/130170

I don't know why it got taken off the main page. :confused:

catdd

03-28-2010, 03:15 PM

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 03:20 PM

I didn't understand your post.

Did you click the link, or follow any of the several relevant leads?

catdd

03-28-2010, 03:21 PM

Did you click the link, or follow any of the several relevant leads?

Yeah, but I must be missing something.
But it's ok, I've been off the thread since morning and this could have taken a new direction.

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 03:27 PM

Yeah, but I must be missing something.

OK.
Slowly this time,
Search=Agent Provocateur planted bombs
Common method of operation, Has been used and is commonly used.
Has been documented. Proven in some cases and suspected in others.

Commonly used to make innocent but un-liked people into guilty people.
Comprende ?

fedup100

03-28-2010, 03:41 PM

The Federal Authorities have raided not only our group but also the Michigan Militia. They have hijacked their website and placed word there that they were not raided.
We need some help please. This has to stop. I am enroute south with my children using the wifi's as I can.
They were catching others as they came to their rallying points, they broke into homes and took children and used the tasers on wives, my son who is 12 and I got out by crawling through the creeks behind our house.
My husband and others are taken, please call the press and tell them, if any in the Michigan Militia is still free please rally with them.
Please help.

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

http://www.hutaree.com/forum/list.php?12

catdd

03-28-2010, 03:50 PM

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

http://www.hutaree.com/forum/list.php?12

good link

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 04:00 PM

A lot of hate being spewed at them since I checked it this morning.

Anna's post is disturbing, to say the least.
:(

dwdollar

03-28-2010, 04:08 PM

A lot of hate being spewed at them since I checked it this morning.

Anna's post is disturbing, to say the least.
:(

Very disturbing. I really hope that is not true.

sharpsteve2003

03-28-2010, 04:19 PM

So I started posted this on three sites, here, prisonplanet forums and Dailypaul and all three were eventually moved after getting lots of attention. Seems like someone is trying to bury it. Very strange.

fedup100

03-28-2010, 04:22 PM

dwdollar

03-28-2010, 04:23 PM

Also Alex Jones live and not a peep about any of this!!

I think it may be a rerun.

catdd

03-28-2010, 04:24 PM

Strange how the mainstream is largely ignoring it other than a minor piece on FOX accusing them of selling pipe bombs, which I doubt.

fedup100

03-28-2010, 04:30 PM

I think it may be a rerun.

How convenient.

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 04:53 PM

The lack of MSM coverage on this is almost as disturbing as the event itself.
:(

angelatc

03-28-2010, 04:53 PM

The Federal Authorities have raided not only our group but also the Michigan Militia. They have hijacked their website and placed word there that they were not raided.

Filing that away for future reference....

Elle

03-28-2010, 05:11 PM

Is it strange that O made a visit to Afghanistan in the middle of the night?

dwdollar

03-28-2010, 05:15 PM

Is it strange that O made a visit to Afghanistan in the middle of the night?

Another convenient coincidence.

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 05:31 PM

Filing that away for future reference....

From your post, I posted the following on another board I watch:

Ladies and gentlemen, be VERY CAREFUL about what information you trust right now. There appears to be a lot of disinformation spinning around the ether over last night/this morning's events. This, which I am about to relay, may also be disinformation for all I know.

One of our group checked on the Hutaree forum (private, registrants only) and found the following message:

The Federal Authorities have raided not only our group but also the Michigan Militia. They have hijacked their website and placed word there that they were not raided.Michigan Militia front page clearly states:

Some sources indicate that the sealed warrants will be released on Monday...This site has NOT been compromised by anyone, nor have we been raided at all. Please disregard any such false information that you might encounter on any comment boards.I, of course, have no way of verifying whether this is true or not. It does cast some doubt onto the message earlier from the MM website stating that they have not been affected.

Somewhere in this mess there is disinformation, apparently intentional. It has either come from Hutaree, the Michigan Militia, or the FBI. Keep your eyes and your ears open, we as yet do not have any idea as to the scope of last night's / this morning's operation.

ETA -- Sorry pcosmar

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 05:32 PM

^^
Your sig line.
United We Stand Or Divided We Fall

Unless thrown to the Lions by our own countrymen.
:(

Cowlesy

03-28-2010, 05:34 PM

Alright, now that Drudge is going full-blast on it, I'll send this back up for those having a hissy-fit it was moved down.

dwdollar

03-28-2010, 05:36 PM

Alright, now that Drudge is going full-blast on it, I'll send this back up for those having a hissy-fit it was moved down.

Thank you.

angelatc

03-28-2010, 05:39 PM

Alright, now that Drudge is going full-blast on it, I'll send this back up for those having a hissy-fit it was moved down.

I don't see anything on Drudge. :confused:

fedup100

03-28-2010, 05:40 PM

From your post, I posted the following on another board I watch:

ETA -- Sorry pcosmar

I don't know what to think. The good guys, the fed gov, we know never lies to us. They have told us for years there IS NO NWO. I assume we can also trust they would never take over a site and then tell us they aren't doing it.....neener neener neener.

Tenbatsu

03-28-2010, 05:40 PM

phill4paul

03-28-2010, 05:41 PM

I don't see anything on Drudge. :confused:

top of page

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 05:41 PM

From your post, I posted the following on another board I watch:

ETA -- Sorry pcosmar

I have been watching both those sites through the day.
The Information on MM site has changed several times.

I saw the Post on Hutaree, But that part of the PHORUM is open to public and there is all manner of hate being spewed there. Mostly directed at Christians and at Hutaree itself.

There is little other info available. Como has gone secure. And only speculation is left.

btw. I have traveled this whole country as an outlaw. I have purchased things through various blackmarkets.
Nobody "sells" pipebombs.

kids make them. FEDs plant them.

phill4paul

03-28-2010, 05:45 PM

angelatc

03-28-2010, 05:45 PM

From your post, I posted the following on another board I watch:

ETA -- Sorry pcosmar

The DEA did some similar stuff when they busted Marc Emery. I forget the specifics, but IIRC customers got mail indicating the orders would be filled anyway. All they had to do was send a little more money...

Carson

03-28-2010, 05:45 PM

The scoops are on the way.

Good one!

angelatc

03-28-2010, 05:49 PM

top of page

I see a banner ad, and 3 columns of headlines, but nothing about this. http://www.drudge.com/ - is that the right page?

Carson

03-28-2010, 05:50 PM

I saw this link to Liberty Groups and thought it fitting for this thread.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&vps=1&jsv=202c&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=108435522685399031870.00047ef9181ddbc25c3d5

phill4paul

03-28-2010, 05:51 PM

I see a banner ad, and 3 columns of headlines, but nothing about this. http://www.drudge.com/ - is that the right page?

no thats the drudge RETORT....you want this

http://www.drudgereport.com/

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 05:51 PM

If there is any question about the Hutaree forum being open to the public, well take a look.
http://www.hutaree.com/forum/list.php?12

Then compare the new posts from today to the older posts.
Rude kids are having fun with it.

angelatc

03-28-2010, 05:54 PM

no thats the drudge RETORT....you want this

http://www.drudgereport.com/

Ah! Thank you.

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 05:56 PM

This is event shows how completely unorganized we are if such an attack by our government were to occur.

No one knows what's happening on the ground right now. All we have are a handful of stories and a lot of information/disinformation. Even if this raid turns out to be legit this should be a learning experience for the liberty movement. We need to increase our communication and networking if we are to react adequately to such an action again.

That's actually pretty easy to arrange...it's just a question of participation. If everybody who would be a part made a special bug-out twitter acct and set it to SMS their phones...coupled with a shared private-key encrypted forum/chatter...

Indy Vidual

03-28-2010, 05:58 PM

Was this posted, yet?
Massive Federal Raid in Lenawee County
http://www.wxyz.com/news/story/Massive-Federal-Raid-in-Lenawee-County/eE6ZljBWa0uFOMUdtOLzvw.cspx

Witnesses tell Action News that it was like a small army had descended on the area.

mczerone

03-28-2010, 06:01 PM

from a drudge link....

http://freep.com/article/20100328/NEWS06/100328017/1319/Feds-confirm-activities-in-southeastern-Michigan

Dawud Walid, head of the Michigan branch of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said he was told that the Christian militia group may have been plotting against American Muslims.

"We salute the FBI for breaking up a militia that was seeking to harm American Muslims," Walid said.

Walid said he publicly announced the FBI raids at his group's 10th annual banquet today in Dearborn, which featured the Rev. Jesse Jackson as the keynote speaker.

(1) Why was this guy told anything from any actual source?

(2) Does he not remember the feds raiding a Dearborn Muslim a few months ago, killing him without any witnesses as to who shot first?

(3) "May have been plotting" against American Muslims? Why don't they just say they "may have been" plotting a detonate a dirty nuke?

(4) Even if they were planning violence - does the FBI no longer have to wait until a substantial step is taken to put such a plan into motion?

Divide and conquer is the only MO, and it seems to be working splendidly.

phill4paul

03-28-2010, 06:04 PM

(1) Why was this guy told anything from any actual source?

(2) Does he not remember the feds raiding a Dearborn Muslim a few months ago, killing him without any witnesses as to who shot first?

(3) "May have been plotting" against American Muslims? Why don't they just say they "may have been" plotting a detonate a dirty nuke?

(4) Even if they were planning violence - does the FBI no longer have to wait until a substantial step is taken to put such a plan into motion?

Divide and conquer is the only MO, and it seems to be working splendidly.

All valid questions.

catdd

03-28-2010, 06:06 PM

This is event shows how completely unorganized we are if such an attack by our government were to occur.

No one knows what's happening on the ground right now. All we have are a handful of stories and a lot of information/disinformation. Even if this raid turns out to be legit this should be a learning experience for the liberty movement. We need to increase our communication and networking if we are to react adequately to such an action again.

Yeah, without some form of communication on ground level we are basically groping around in the dark. Just little grabasstic pieces of amphibian shit.

Elle

03-28-2010, 06:25 PM

This is everywhere right now. Someone posted this on FB

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1024896/pg1

Reason

03-28-2010, 06:26 PM

About Us

HUTAREE; Christian Warrior

As christians we all are a part of the Souls of the Body of Christ, the one true church of Christ. Not any specific man made building or any man controlled organization. This is the belief of the Hutaree soldier, as should the belief of all followers in Christ be.

We believe that one day, as prophecy says, there will be an Anti-Christ. All christians must know this and prepare, just as Christ commanded. Luke 22:35-37, And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?” So they said, “Nothing.” 36, Then he said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37, “For I say to you that this which is written must be accomplished in me: ‘And He was numbered with transgressors,’ For the things concerning Me have an end.” This clearly states the reason for the training and preparation of the Hutaree.

Jesus wanted us to be ready to defend ourselves using the sword and stay alive using equipment. The only thing on earth to save the testimony and those who follow it, are the members of the testimony, til the return of Christ in the clouds. We, the Hutaree, are prepared to defend all those who belong to Christ and save those who aren’t. We will still spread the word, and fight to keep it, up to the time of the great coming.

Being Hutaree is to stay the Testimony of Christ alive, and follow a motto, John15:13, “Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” We are hoping that through this website we can reach out to those who have not the word of God and those who are lost in there ideas of Christ. Many of the things Christ said would happen have happened and some things are still in the works of happening.

We all must know that we all carry a cross and a soldiers cross is just as heavy as any other. Just as Jesus did we must also carry our cross to our destination our life abounds us to. All people are givin a destination by God’s will and have to continue there walk to there own golgotha. But many people, even christians don’t agree with the things we do but all we have to say is, we will not argue over the Bible, read it for what it is. We believe only what the Bible says and not on only philosophy, as many christians of this day do. Christ is our king of kings and top general of all things, for we are not of this world but we live in it.

The Hutaree will one day see its enemy and meet him on the battlefield if so God wills it. We will reach out to those who are yet blind in the last days of the kingdoms of men and bring them to life in Christ. Daniel 11:32-35, “Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33, “And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering. 34, “Now when they fall, they shall be aided with a little help; but many shall join them by intrigue. 35 “And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.”

You can find the news we find in some of the places we have in the information sources section. Also you can get gear from some of the choice places we have on gear links. Thanks for coming to Hutaree.com and please come again. Oh and don’t forget that you can write us through the contact us link on the Hutaree homepage. Once again thanks for visiting Hutaree.com and may Christ bless you widely.

Back (http://hutaree.com/index.htm)

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 06:29 PM

If there is any question about the Hutaree forum being open to the public, well take a look.
http://www.hutaree.com/forum/list.php?12 (http://www.hutaree.com/forum/list.php?12)

Then compare the new posts from today to the older posts.
Rude kids are having fun with it.

Wow, just wow. I think I'm going to be sick. Such pure unmasked hatred, and for what? No real reason except they were attacked by the FBI. battening down the hatches, it's gonna be a bumpy decade...

Indy Vidual

03-28-2010, 06:31 PM

...battening down the hatches, it's gonna be a bumpy decade...

The bright side: At least we don't have to listen to 'W' trying to speak English.

This is everywhere right now. Someone posted this on FB

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1024896/pg1

That local news report looked pretty serious.

Endgame

03-28-2010, 06:32 PM

Yeah, without some form of communication on ground level we are basically groping around in the dark. Just little grabasstic pieces of amphibian shit.

I know that Free State Project is good at this kind of coordination. They have some sort of hotline and seem to be able to get people on the ground with cameras on very short notice when something happens.

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 06:35 PM

There is a great lack of good information on this. But there is some information.

And some troubling facts.
We know "something" is going down.

What is troubling most is left to 2 possibilities.
Either the Michigan Militia site is under control of others.
Or the Michigan Militia Is actively working with the Feds to round up their neighbors.

both possibilities suck.
:mad:

Reason

03-28-2010, 06:37 PM

Indy Vidual

03-28-2010, 06:40 PM

All the info I've read points to this group being more of an armed religious cult that none of the militias wanted to have anything to do with.
Those sources may or may not be true...

phill4paul

03-28-2010, 06:46 PM

All the info I've read points to this group being more of an armed religious cult that none of the militias wanted to have anything to do with.

The Constitution does not forbid "religious cults" nor their right to bear arms.

Reason

03-28-2010, 06:46 PM

Those sources may or may not be true...

Judging by that groups own statements it adds up.

Uriel999

03-28-2010, 06:46 PM

Alright so we are sitting here and still essentially know nothing. This is weird.

Uriel999

03-28-2010, 06:48 PM

dwdollar

03-28-2010, 06:49 PM

I think this happening on a Saturday night/Sunday morning was cause for much of the confusion. Most alternative news websites and radio shows are taking well deserved breaks.

Indy Vidual

03-28-2010, 06:50 PM

As far as calling them a cult. All religions are cults by definition. Second, looking at their own statements they claimed to be defensive just like other mainstream militias. 3rd, they have a history of benefiting the local community. So essentially this doesn't add up.

Sure it does...

The Moral Promise of Freedom

by Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX)
The Free Market
March 1994

The moral promise of a free society involves the boundaries of private property. The promise is this: property boundaries cannot be legally invaded or trampled upon. When property is protected, people can keep the fruits of their labor and investment, and not have them plundered by others. People can own land, for example, and this land can be used as the owners see fit. Private property allows wide latitude for experimentation. Property holders can form communities with internal cultures. Just as business can conduct its own affairs, people can separate themselves out entirely from the rest of society if they so desire. They need only respect the rights of others to do the same.

It's the nature of private property and a free society that it allows room for diversity of work, modes of production, and ways of life. That's how Mr. Jefferson wanted it, and that's what the authors of the Constitution promised. In the sixties, for example, hippie communes sprang up all over the country. The participants were eccentric and the utopias didn't work, but the attempts were tolerated by society and state.

Today the promise of private property is routinely violated by both private criminals and government. The attack on property began subtly at first, but today it has become explicit, sometimes brutal, and sometimes even deadly.

The community of faith that once lived at Mount Carmel in Waco, Texas, believed the promise of free society. They chose to separate themselves from society, as so many others have done in our nation's history. This was not allowed in Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, or Maoist China. That's one reason we regard these regimes as tyrannical.

Yet in its dealings with the Waco religious dissenters, the central government revealed that it has become intractably opposed to any individual or group that represents a challenge to its singular authority. To counter this challenge, the central government resorted to tactics that resulted in the death of 86 men, women, and children. As for the survivors, the government has put them on trial.

This sort of brutality is inevitable in a system of absolute and centralized power. A government that invades private business by demanding confiscatory taxes, imposes unbearable regulations, and rules over business culture through pervasive labor controls, builds an appetite for even more power. As the power builds, so does the extent of corruption at the top and the disinformation that covers up the truth about its tyranny.

So it was in Waco, where the tragic events combined all the elements of a government out of control. Most of what the public thinks it knows about David Koresh, the group's spiritual leader, is false. But as with war, military invasions, and other acts of state – as J.S. Griffey of the University of Houston argued in an outstanding article in the Southern Partisan – the first impression is the one that lasts.

For example, most people probably believe that the government attacked the Waco Christians because they were "stockpiling" weapons. Were they? Texans own 60 million firearms, about 3.5 per person. At Mt. Carmel there were two firearms per person, most of them locked away. The rest of their protection consisted of hay bales and plywood.

The stockpiling accusation was an act of projection, for the real stockpiler was the government. In the attack on Waco, agents used MI 13 personnel carriers, M2AO Bradley fighting vehicles, Sikorsky Blackhawks, Apache and UH-1 Bell helicopters, Abrams MI tanks, 7.62mm machine guns, FBI SWAT snipers, two varieties of hand grenades, and the FBI's psychological warfare experts. The government even fired canisters of CS gas, banned in warfare by international treaty, through windows and walls.

The BATF got their helicopters from the Texas National Guard. Under the law, the military cannot be involved in domestic law enforcement. But a special provision of the U.S. Code allows the government to use military equipment in drug cases. So the BATF told Texas governor Ann Richards that they suspected Mount Carmel had a drug lab. This canard was not in the BATF's search warrants and it hasn't been mentioned since.

Did Koresh want a confrontation with law enforcement agents? All evidence indicates he desired good relations with the law. In 1992, Koresh had actually invited the BATF into the compound so agents could see for themselves. But the government reneged. "Why do you all have to be so big all the time?" Koresh asked the FBI during the month-long standoff. "Why didn't you just talk to me?"

Did the community have a death wish? Twenty minutes before the fire began, the community hung out a sign reading: "We want our phones fixed." (The government had cut them off, along with the electricity.) That's not a message sent by people hungering for the Apocalypse. None of the survivors report discussion of suicide plans.

There is still no evidence that the religious people set the fire that destroyed their building. The place was a firetrap, entirely made of wood and sealed shut. Since the government had cut off their electricity, lanterns were their only light. The government shot out the windows, so sheets were their only protection from the weather. The tanks that battered the building probably set the fire, either accidentally or deliberately.

The initial raid was on February 28, 1993. Several people say the government shot through the roof from a helicopter, but we cannot know for sure. The physical evidence is reduced to ashes, and the government plowed the land over a week after the home went up in flames.

As the standoff continued, the women and children were upstairs because they were afraid of the government. The tanks destroyed the stairways that would have allowed them to escape the fire. The underground shelter was destroyed as well.

After the fire, the FBI made three claims it later retracted. First, the Bureau said that two agents saw community members lighting a fire. Second, the Bureau said one agent saw someone dressed in black "cupping his hands," as if to light a fire. Third, the Bureau said some members trying to flee the fire were shot by others. All assertions were false and were subsequently dropped.

The Justice Department contributed its share of lies. Spokesmen said an "independent arson investigator" concluded that members of the community started the fire. But the "independent investigator" turned out to be Paul Gray, an agent for the BATF from 1962 to 1990 whose wife stills works for the agency as secretary to the man who planned the raid. They apparently could not be sure a genuinely independent investigator would come to the preordained conclusion.

The stated purpose of the raid was to save children from abuse. Yet Janet Reno lied about that too. The information she used was already discredited, and she later admitted it. The real child abuse was committed by the government: to harass community members, the FBI turned on massive floodlights at night and played recordings of Buddhist chants, dental drills, and screaming, slaughtered rabbits. Reno herself ordered the house to be saturated with CS gas, knowing that the community's gas masks couldn't fit the children.

In ways that have become typical, the media and government worked together in this disaster. One day before the raid, the Waco Tribune-Herald started a series on "The Sinful Messiah." On the morning of February 28, 1993, before BATF arrived at Mt. Carmel, at least 11 reporters were on the scene already. After the religious community was torched, the entire media participated in the beatification of Janet Reno for her actions in Waco.

The consequences for the victims were public humiliation and death. There were zero consequences for the perpetrators, unless we consider the three agents who were suspended with pay and perks, which is no punishment at all.

The methods and strategies of the government's assault against Waco had been used for years by the military, but against foreign governments and their leaders, not against the domestic citizenry. The most familiar case of foreign intrigue was the government's attack on Manuel Noriega, in which it used similar tactics (blaring music, planting evidence, spreading disinformation), and therein lies the connection between foreign policy and domestic. Anything a government allows itself to do to foreign countries will eventually be done at home. That's one reason George Washington warned us against foreign entanglements.

We may never know the full truth about Waco or the extent of government perfidy, but we can draw lessons from the experience. This particular event was a fiasco, but it also tells something about what our government has become: "the organizer-in-chief of society," as Bertrand de Jouvenel said, which is "making its monopoly of this role ever more complete." It is a parasite and a monster that acts to protect itself. Mises was right: government's nature is coercive. It is "beating, killing, hanging." Coercion is necessary in society to protect the rights of property holders against those who do not respect property. But when government itself become the source of arbitrary violence, we have tyranny. That's why unchecked power should never be invested in a centralized government, even one with a democratic mandate. This power will invariably be exercised at the expense of peaceful social relations.

In its dealings with the community of believers at Mount Carmel, the central government abandoned the moral promise of a free society, and, as all tyrannies eventually do, ignored its own standards of law and ethics. But it paid the price of losing some measure of public confidence, which is already at historic lows. A government that governs by fear alone eventually finds itself unable to govern at all.

Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.

Elle

03-28-2010, 06:51 PM

I read a comment that was something to the effect of..... the FBI should be raiding Detroit and picking up all the welfare cheats instead of Billy Bob who is shooting at empty Budweiser cans in the woods. That would have been tax dollars put to work.

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 06:51 PM

All the info I've read points to this group being more of an armed religious cult that none of the militias wanted to have anything to do with.

Then you obviously did not read older posts on their site,
The ones before The trolls that are infesting it today.

There was conversation with others. The information in the news today would be in question.

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 06:58 PM

What I find the most disturbing is the comments on the various sites supporting the raids on account of their being "Christian whackos with guns." and people who are cheering and calling for the government to "round up all the teabaggers and throw them in prison."

What. The. Fuck. is WRONG with the American people? :mad: The Obamatons are breaking their backs to justify how every political opponent should be sent to the fucking gas chambers so they can live in their damn Obamation utopia without having to hear any dissent. :mad:

this crap is making me ill.

Elle

03-28-2010, 06:59 PM

USA Today

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-28-fbi-midwest-raid_N.htm

Uriel999

03-28-2010, 07:10 PM

USA Today

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-28-fbi-midwest-raid_N.htm

Interesting, I wonder if it is true. For instance, the Michigan Militia could easily say they have denied aid while sneaking those militiamen to safe houses.

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 07:15 PM

USA Today

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-28-fbi-midwest-raid_N.htm

Michael Lackomar, a spokesman for the Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia, said one of his team leaders got a frantic phone call Saturday evening from members of Hutaree, a Christian militia group, who said their property in southwest Michigan was being raided by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Organizations/Government+Bodies/Bureau+of+Alcohol,+Tobacco,+Firearms+and+Explosive s).
"They said they were under attack by the ATF and wanted a place to hide," Lackomar said. "My team leader said, 'no thanks.' "
The team leader was cooperating with the FBI on Sunday, Lackomar said. He said the Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia wasn't affiliated with Hutaree, which states on its website to be "prepared to defend all those who belong to Christ and save those who aren't."PS - your bottom sigquote actually came from Gerald Ford in 1974...

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 07:19 PM

All the info I've read points to this group being more of an armed religious cult that none of the militias wanted to have anything to do with.

Wondering if you have a chart handy that we can look at to see which beliefs are or are not acceptable to hold when in possession of firearms, and which beliefs are or are not acceptable whether one possesses firearms or not. I'd sure like to avoid whatever beliefs will land me in Federal prison...

catdd

03-28-2010, 07:22 PM

They came for the religious cult, but I was not a Christian...

tpreitzel

03-28-2010, 07:24 PM

The Constitution does not forbid "religious cults" nor their right to bear arms.

Right ... use the "fear" of a religious cult to justify unconstitutional actions... Probably, most federal agencies are run by invisible cults. ;)

Any group or organization has the potential to become a cult. Cults basically depend on a small group of leaders retaining unquestionable power over other members.

t0rnado

03-28-2010, 07:28 PM

Right ... use the "fear" of a religious cult to justify unconstitutional actions... Probably, most federal agencies are run by invisible cults. ;)

Any group or organization has the potential to become a cult. Cults basically depend on a small group of powerful leaders retaining unquestionable power over other members.

AKA the government of the United States of Amerika

Reason

03-28-2010, 07:31 PM

The Constitution does not forbid "religious cults" nor their right to bear arms.

Did someone say that it did :confused:

JK/SEA

03-28-2010, 07:31 PM

They came for the religious cult, but I was not a Christian...

...then they came for me, but there wasn't anybody left to save me....

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 07:31 PM

When they came for the Seventh Day Adventists, I was not a Seventh Day Adventist, so I said nothing.

When they came for the Separatists, I was not a Separatist, so I said nothing.

When they came for the Tax Protesters, I was not a Tax Protester, so I said nothing.

When they came for the Christian Warriors, I was not a Christian Warrior, so I said nothing.

Then, when they came for me, there was nobody left to speak up for me.

phill4paul

03-28-2010, 07:34 PM

Did someone say that it did :confused:

Whoever wrote all the info you've read if they referred to them as an "armed religious cult."

Reason

03-28-2010, 07:48 PM

It seems important to differentiate between a govt. crackdown on "militias" vs an isolated group accused of making threats of violence against Muslims and selling bombs...

Of course we don't know the truth about any of this but last time I checked we tend to want to have a calm, calculated, and logical position on issues.

Let's for a second assume this group did make threats of violence and then sold bombs to an undercover FBI agent.

Is that a group we want to have anything to do with?

The quote from the other militia leader specifically trying to distance themselves from this group seems important.

The quotes and statements on this groups own website seems important.

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 07:53 PM

sharpsteve2003

03-28-2010, 07:54 PM

Alright, now that Drudge is going full-blast on it, I'll send this back up for those having a hissy-fit it was moved down.

So Drudge is the gatekeeper?

Baptist

03-28-2010, 07:55 PM

So Drudge is the gatekeeper?

He screwed over Paul's 2008 campaign just like every other media outlet. Drudge is as mainstream as Fox and CNN.

Reason

03-28-2010, 07:58 PM

No One sells pipe bombs. NO ONE.

Never underestimate the stupidity of humans imo

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 08:01 PM

Never underestimate the stupidity of humans imo

After all, they ARE Christians! :rolleyes:

Your sig is awfully ironic right now....

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 08:03 PM

Never underestimate the stupidity of humans imo

I expect stupidity from the media brainwashed public. They are the only ones stupid enough to buy this.

Cowlesy

03-28-2010, 08:03 PM

So Drudge is the gatekeeper?

Steve,

I don't think you get it with respect to this forum. It's a political activist forum, that also allows discussion and debate about other topics (like news). When people go to Google and type "militia raid michigan," we don't need RonPaulForums being the first link to anything about it, because no one here has any clue of what's going on. So by moving to a different section of the forum, we avoid having RPFs as the #1 link on Google.

Now that a day has gone by and the story has propagated throughout the internet-tubes, I am more comfortable with the fact that this thread is now indexed for the whole world to see. Stop being so paranoid about "gatekeepers" and "deliberate cover-ups" and all this stuff --- this is a forum owned by two nice guys down in Texas, and staffed with a few Moderators to help keep things civil when needed. It's not part of some giant machine that some may envision with conference calls with the "MSM" and "Feds" about what to do with threads. It's just an internet forum.

As for Drudge, once he starts linking stuff, other stuff gets to the top of Google. If it is any consolidation to those who wish to see this thread be some beacon to the rest of the internet-tubes, we are still on the front-page on the Google search (much to my chagrin).

Baptist

03-28-2010, 08:04 PM

Never underestimate the stupidity of humans imo

True. Many people by default believe the federal government until proven otherwise. When it should be that we do not believe the federal government unless they prove otherwise.

Reason

03-28-2010, 08:11 PM

After all, they ARE Christians! :rolleyes:

Your sig is awfully ironic right now....

All I try to do is remind everyone that before we jump on any bandwagons we should get more info and instantly I am a traitor

w/e

clearly it's 100% impossible that some douche that was a member of that group could have made threats against anyone and clearly it's 100% impossible that some fool could have been conned into selling some pipe bombs.

It must be nice to be omniscient I guess.

bunklocoempire

03-28-2010, 08:11 PM

pcosmar

03-28-2010, 08:12 PM

True. Many people by default believe the federal government until proven otherwise. When it should be that we do not believe the federal government unless they prove otherwise.

Exactly.
Especially since the Federal Government has a documented history of planting pipe bombs to frame people.
Or of supplying explosives to "terrorists".
Or weapons entrapment.
etc.etc.etc.

Baptist

03-28-2010, 08:20 PM

In light of these raids, all of you should watch these two documentaries.

When it comes to raids on self-sufficient people, I NEVER believe ANYTHING the government has to say. In fact, when the government raided the Mormons in Texas a few years ago (and I believe that Mormons are a cult and false religion), I came out in defense of the Mormons on day one. Of course, we now know (after CPS workers probed every orifice of their children) that the government and media lied once again.

Waco

WACO: The Rules of Engagement (1/2) (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4298137966377572665#)

WACO: The Rules of Engagement (2/2) (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1755692679103175934#)

Ruby Ridge

Ruby Ridge Documentary (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4565369222910430105&ei=M3_nSYGlEIHo-AHTyc3fBg&q=Ruby+Ridge+Documentary&hl=en&emb=1)

Indy Vidual

03-28-2010, 08:40 PM

...we are still on the front-page on the Google search (much to my chagrin).

...and the url's here do not have keywords (the thread titles) in them.
i.e. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=237918&page=23
So much for all the hoopla about SEO friendly url's (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Qok&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&ei=_hKwS4z2O4aONuWrzJkF&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAUQBSgA&q=SEO+friendly+urls&spell=1).

In light of these raids, all of you should watch these two documentaries.

When it comes to raids on self-sufficient people, I NEVER believe ANYTHING the government has to say. In fact, when the government raided the Mormons in Texas a few years ago (and I believe that Mormons are a cult and false religion), I came out in defense of the Mormons on day one. Of course, we now know (after CPS workers probed every orifice of their children) that the government and media lied once again.

Waco

WACO: The Rules of Engagement (1/2) (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4298137966377572665#)

WACO: The Rules of Engagement (2/2) (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1755692679103175934#)

Ruby Ridge

Ruby Ridge Documentary (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4565369222910430105&ei=M3_nSYGlEIHo-AHTyc3fBg&q=Ruby+Ridge+Documentary&hl=en&emb=1)

Have you seen the documentary released in the late 1990's which shows the Fed's using machine guns from helicopters at Waco? (and they also placed a guy near an exit who probably killed at least 25 people in cold blood, you can see the flashes from a machine gun there also)

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 08:49 PM

All I try to do is remind everyone that before we jump on any bandwagons we should get more info and instantly I am a traitor

w/e

clearly it's 100% impossible that some douche that was a member of that group could have made threats against anyone and clearly it's 100% impossible that some fool could have been conned into selling some pipe bombs.

It must be nice to be omniscient I guess.

Well, I have been watching for 30 years, and I have YET to see even one of these raids that was 'justified.' The ppl who SHOULD be raided, heaven's gate, jonesboro -- NEVER are. It appeared to me that your attitude turned on a f'ing DIME the moment you heard they were "Christians" Suddenly it was, "Oh just wait, this was probably just some cult." nothing to see here, move along. If my perception was in error then I apologize, but I am pissed, and that kind of thing is just going to intensify and magnify my anger...

After all, Waco was "just some cult" and they were all murdered, but Jonesboro, who deserved a raid, was left to f'ing DIE.

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 09:00 PM

Wow, just wow. I think I'm going to be sick. Such pure unmasked hatred, and for what? No real reason except they were attacked by the FBI. battening down the hatches, it's gonna be a bumpy decade...

OK.

I'm going to unload here, and hope this doesn't end up in a ban.

I just got back from reading over that site, and yes, pure unmasked hatred was displayed...

...sigh...

Never mind, forget it, probably nothing but a bunch of /b/tards.

Carry on.

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 09:03 PM

OK.

I'm going to unload here, and hope this doesn't end up in a ban.

I just got back from reading over that site, and yes, pure unmasked hatred was displayed...

...sigh...

Never mind, forget it, probably nothing but a bunch of /b/tards.

Carry on.

Probably for the best, though I was looking forward to shouting HUZZAH! ;)

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 09:06 PM

Probably for the best, though I was looking forward to shouting HUZZAH! ;)

"Cry havoc". :mad:

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 09:07 PM

"Cry havoc". :mad:

"...and loose the dogs of war!" :mad: :mad:

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 09:11 PM

"...and loose the dogs of war!" :mad: :mad:

They're just gonna keep on pushing...

dwdollar

03-28-2010, 09:16 PM

OK.

I'm going to unload here, and hope this doesn't end up in a ban.

I just got back from reading over that site, and yes, pure unmasked hatred was displayed...

...sigh...

Never mind, forget it, probably nothing but a bunch of /b/tards.

Carry on.

Before or after people starting f-ing with their forums?

EDIT: Never mind I misunderstood.

jbuttell

03-28-2010, 09:20 PM

OK.

I'm going to unload here, and hope this doesn't end up in a ban.

I just got back from reading over that site, and yes, pure unmasked hatred was displayed...

...sigh...

Never mind, forget it, probably nothing but a bunch of /b/tards.

Carry on.

Hate toward them by posters, or hate from Hutaree members themselves? I don't know who is who...

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 09:22 PM

They're just gonna keep on pushing...

until they wake the sleeping dragon. Hope he wakes before it's too late

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 09:24 PM

Before or after people starting f-ing with their forums?

After.

Just a glimpse into the minds of people out there.

For the most part, the "people", they don't deserve good government, they don't deserve Ron Paul, and they don't deserve their freedom.

They deserve the chains and shackles and misery they are going to get.

Sadly, their stupid asses are dragging me and mine along with them.

And these are the people we're trying to "educate"?

Fuck them. Honestly, fuck my "fellow Americans".

Outside of a small percentage, based on what I'm seeing, I'd probably draw first and ask questions later.

We either have to get prepared to drag these people along with us, kicking and screaming and backstabbing all the way, or cut them loose.

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 09:29 PM

After.

Just a glimpse into the minds of people out there.

For the most part, the "people", they don't deserve good government, they don't deserve Ron Paul, and they don't deserve their freedom.

They deserve the chains and shackles and misery they are going to get.

Sadly, their stupid asses are dragging me and mine along with them.

And these are the people we're trying to "educate"?

Fuck them. Honestly, fuck my "fellow Americans".

Outside of a small percentage, based on what I'm seeing, I'd probably draw first and ask questions later.

We either have to get prepared to drag these people along with us, kicking and screaming and backstabbing all the way, or cut them loose.

"Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!" -- Samuel Adams

davesxj

03-28-2010, 09:31 PM

or cut them loose.

this.

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 09:32 PM

The entire quote seems exquisitely appropriate here...

“Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say 'what should be the reward of such sacrifices?' Bid us and our posterity bow the knee, supplicate the friendship and plough, and sow, and reap, to glut the avarice of the men who have let loose on us the dogs of war to riot in our blood and hunt us from the face of the earth? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!” -- Samuel Adams

Anti Federalist

03-28-2010, 09:33 PM

"Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!" -- Samuel Adams

Exactly.

This is alluding to what I was thinking a post or two back, and calmed down and stepped away from the edge.

I was prepared to be much more harsh.

Uriel999

03-28-2010, 09:35 PM

After.

Just a glimpse into the minds of people out there.

For the most part, the "people", they don't deserve good government, they don't deserve Ron Paul, and they don't deserve their freedom.

They deserve the chains and shackles and misery they are going to get.

Sadly, their stupid asses are dragging me and mine along with them.

And these are the people we're trying to "educate"?

Fuck them. Honestly, fuck my "fellow Americans".

Outside of a small percentage, based on what I'm seeing, I'd probably draw first and ask questions later.

We either have to get prepared to drag these people along with us, kicking and screaming and backstabbing all the way, or cut them loose.

Sadly, I am finding myself as frustrated and in agreement with you. I work two jobs that involve a lot of human interaction. One waiting tables, and the other working in the publik education system. Other than a few rays of sunshine in the darkness society is fucked.

BlackTerrel

03-28-2010, 09:45 PM

Looks like these people may have been making threats against Muslims:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/cair-seeks-info-on-militia-threats-to-muslim-groups-89371647.html

WASHINGTON, March 28 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- A prominent national Muslim civil rights and advocacy organization tonight called on federal law enforcement authorities to release more information about possible threats of violence against American Muslims by a militia group raided this weekend in several states.

[NOTE TO MEDIA PROFESSIONALS: Charges are expected to be unsealed in federal court in Detroit on Monday. If the reported threats to Islamic organizations are confirmed, CAIR will hold a news conference on the issue later on Monday in Washington, D.C. CONTACT: CAIR National Communications Director Ibrahim Hooper, 202-744-7726, E-Mail: ihooper@cair.com]

The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) said at least seven members of a Christian militia group have been arrested in FBI-led Joint Terrorism Task Force raids and investigations in Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, and Indiana. According to media reports, the "Hutaree" militia was targeted after its members made threats of violence against Islamic organizations...

Indy Vidual

03-28-2010, 09:58 PM

...Other than a few rays of sunshine in the darkness society is fucked.

Remember, "Hope For America?"

GunnyFreedom

03-28-2010, 10:02 PM

Remember, "Hope For America?"

I felt exactly this way, and thought that I was almost completely alone for more than the last 20 years. Today, thanks to RP08, I know that I am in the company of at least a million patriots.