How can we have fire protection and other services without taxes?

[Reason]

How can we have fire protection and other services without taxes?

QUESTION: If there were no taxes, how would we pay for hospitals, military defense and rescue workers? It would stink if a privatized fire fighter let your house burn because you didn't pay for them. And what if a small town had only one station, and it begins over-pricing because they're the only one in town?

MY SHORT ANSWER: Actually, many small towns today, including my own, utilize private fire fighters who are primarily volunteers. Each year, a community-support organization collects donations from bake sales, garage sales, barbeques and other fund-raising events to pay for their equipment. Almost everyone contributes as a customer, donor, volunteer, or organizer. Smaller communities would probably continue to utilize such strategies in a libertarian society.

In larger communities, homeowners could subscribe to one of multiple fire-fighting services. Mortgage companies and insurers would likely require such a subscription as part of their contract, as many do today. Thus, most people would carry such subscriptions, which would probably be about half of what we pay in taxes today.

Someone without a subscription could still call a fire-fighting service and get immediate service; they would simply pay more than a person with a subscription. In some cases, a service might put out a fire gratis simply as good-will advertising to other neighbors, who might decide to switch their subscription to a group they've seen in action.

You can find more examples of how fire protection and other important services would be paid for in a libertarian society in my short articles here (http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103227020399&s=85131&e=001Xm0mFNkOarE_mxPheP3lWDDmMPF6k1QY1Ox0ECOMxCO_H FFnB4wajwYd-4qkIKKh50moEDWFtyHNOSSH_7_tvzFOgdYBQWquYX71oC_ig2n XweySH2yz3c2KCcp2NvSuCGGSUN1rK-dhg5WcLg0y_m2pkzNcuHBxN_Y5SGl21q6DID1TcAischZaLWdD WEI9) and here (http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103227020399&s=85131&e=001Xm0mFNkOarFhH8kKT9R5IKSJsOValZwLN3CsPdW1R3cPp 2UwoUI9bFRzHAkYQXsuA8WCBhKQFA5_C8u--DgAN-TE_ocy5vVbecbrn_8I8gnAvRzaiBWceiG2oCxv4qkAbem0zCtN B_qoT3LQBHuiFxBNW0vqQqz1hKvkVFigdAOY-_k78oQJlw==).

I go into more detail in my book "Healing Our World," available from the Advocates (http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103227020399&s=85131&e=001Xm0mFNkOarG-emi1-RhGnK111yIj3N1bH2_ucenDBy6hv2HzNCiRhKaTnEiRl80-8tBhNmhXJK6aMH7hhUT1yHVISeKNtgU3ZJ9UcUV1gWa26KEA1T 8Ti0tcE8JJCCCRAKaaRi5k-vFTCAdNzzGPNfiryX0V70v202FxRxe4tvze7pLykyee4tD9dSd f7wTgcoj2hRK2SOU8NBMySixauEk4QqDWjeQF0u7SSEinPJAHL c_fuB0iHw==) [latest 2003 edition] or as a free download [older 1992 edition] at my website (http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103227020399&s=85131&e=001Xm0mFNkOarFMZ_m9nY5YyySIYZl1OQSSACRvHY1Y7kjzq K055tjo9lzRVgVwtnP0DV3--Gt1398KWlYEPiqNeyNH7qfCc_HZMgIIf3_GKpL4DDWkjjYoyDc xRrXy7Awv).

LEARN MORE (suggested reading from the Liberator Online editor):

"About 90 percent of all fire departments in the United States are composed either entirely or mostly of volunteers. These departments protect 42 percent of the population."

So says (http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103227020399&s=85131&e=001Xm0mFNkOarGwrdMrJN5HeLDT0eP0k51zSb8dpzbTdxdI1 VBP-C2f7ZvwQP_ANEz-xboHuXFTVdMrw8rWAk70BPuO-boP9pYQSQ4doo880UABeYe-5yyxbgzaT3NOhDEcn19KWd6773E85JhU3PRrHh3IDePYTVoNtZ ANJk53EPQ=) "Fire Protection Privatization: A Cost-Effective Approach to Public Safety," a 1992 study from the Reason Foundation, a think tank specializing in privatization. Though a bit dated, it provides useful background and real-world examples of how fire protection services can be handled by the private sector.

[jkr]

design & build houses that will not burn...free market, that's me!

[Elwar]

I've lived in towns with private fire stations. I currently have private garbage service and private water and electric.

People's heads explode when they hear someone advocate private fire stations and garbage service. It is unimaginable to them.

I would like to hear any cases of private police.

[Reason]

People's heads explode when they hear someone advocate private fire stations and garbage service. It is unimaginable to them.


http://www.politicalforum.com/political-opinions-beliefs/121457-how-can-we-have-fire-protection-other-services-without-taxes.html

[DamianTV]

The next time the military wants a hundred new state of the art fighter jets, tell them to hold a bake sale. See how well that goes over with them.

[Reason]

The next time the military wants a hundred new state of the art fighter jets, tell them to hold a bake sale. See how well that goes over with them.

:D

[Elwar]

http://www.politicalforum.com/political-opinions-beliefs/121457-how-can-we-have-fire-protection-other-services-without-taxes.html

heh...


It may work for Mayberry but not for larger areas or for other institutions.

I lived in Columbia County Georgia where there was probably a population of a couple hundred thousand people and we had a private fire department.

When I moved into my home I got a letter from the fire department. They offered me fire service for $20 a month. Or, if I didn't pay for the service, I would be charged $2,000 if the fire department had to come out and put out my fire. A few hundred dollars for other minor services such as putting out small kitchen fires and the like.

I opted against the $20 a month, figuring it was unlikely that my home would catch fire and $2,000 wasn't a bad price.

[Reason]

heh...



I lived in Columbia County Georgia where there was probably a population of a couple hundred thousand people and we had a private fire department.

When I moved into my home I got a letter from the fire department. They offered me fire service for $20 a month. Or, if I didn't pay for the service, I would be charged $2,000 if the fire department had to come out and put out my fire. A few hundred dollars for other minor services such as putting out small kitchen fires and the like.

I opted against the $20 a month, figuring it was unlikely that my home would catch fire and $2,000 wasn't a bad price.

Post that @ the other forum if you want, or I can post it for ya.

[ChaosControl]

Taxes serve no purpose other than to force someone to pay for something they don't need so that someone else can benefit from something without having to pay for it themselves.

To tax should be treated as a synonym for to steal.

[Elwar]

I guess I could see the police force privatized on a contractual basis. Perhaps several police force companies bid for a 5 year contract. You still have to pay for it through taxes, but through competition you probably get better service.

I could never really figure out how a private police force could be paid privately though...criminals don't tend to be in much of a place to pay for the service of being arrested. And the private court system would have to be a seperate entity from the police force or they'd just arrest people randomly just to get more money.

[Elwar]

Post that @ the other forum if you want, or I can post it for ya.

You can go ahead...I'm on enough forums. :)

[ChaosControl]

I guess I could see the police force privatized on a contractual basis. Perhaps several police force companies bid for a 5 year contract. You still have to pay for it through taxes, but through competition you probably get better service.

I could never really figure out how a private police force could be paid privately though...criminals don't tend to be in much of a place to pay for the service of being arrested. And the private court system would have to be a seperate entity from the police force or they'd just arrest people randomly just to get more money.

Well you could lease out criminals and use that to pay for the costs of arresting them and imprisoning them.

[Krugerrand]

heh...



I lived in Columbia County Georgia where there was probably a population of a couple hundred thousand people and we had a private fire department.

When I moved into my home I got a letter from the fire department. They offered me fire service for $20 a month. Or, if I didn't pay for the service, I would be charged $2,000 if the fire department had to come out and put out my fire. A few hundred dollars for other minor services such as putting out small kitchen fires and the like.

I opted against the $20 a month, figuring it was unlikely that my home would catch fire and $2,000 wasn't a bad price.

It seems to me that you should be able to bill the $2000 to the insurance company.

I think pay for response makes the most since.

[Anti Federalist]

Like Elwar, where I live, I have private trash pickup, private water, private septic, volunteer fire and ambulance service.

Years ago, you paid into a private fund for yearly fire "insurance".

You displayed a copper or brass placard on your home or business similar to this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/domystic/firemark.jpg

If you didn't have it, firemen would protect other dwellings or buildings but leave yours to burn.

[Elwar]

Like Elwar, where I live, I have private trash pickup, private water, private septic, volunteer fire and ambulance service.

Oh ya...Ambulance service was private too...you paid for the ride as part of your medical bill.

[Old Dragon]

We have volunteers firefighters.

You can haul your own trash to the dump.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg103/o1ddragon/smilies/butcher-1.gif

[pcosmar]

On a side note

Fire Protection? :rolleyes:

That is another of those phrases that makes little logical sense and is entirely misleading.

Yes, I was a volunteer Fireman once.
We did not prevent nor protect against fire.
We showed up after a fire was well underway and attempted to put it out.
Generally all we could do was contain it.

The only fire protection that any possesses is located between their ears. :confused:

/rant off

carry on.

[Brian Defferding]

Like Elwar, where I live, I have private trash pickup, private water, private septic, volunteer fire and ambulance service.

Years ago, you paid into a private fund for yearly fire "insurance".

You displayed a copper or brass placard on your home or business similar to this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/domystic/firemark.jpg

If you didn't have it, firemen would protect other dwellings or buildings but leave yours to burn.

What area do you live in? I'm curious because I have only lived in government-utility-nightmare hell and would like a break from it.

[torchbearer]

On a side note

Fire Protection? :rolleyes:

That is another of those phrases that makes little logical sense and is entirely misleading.

Yes, I was a volunteer Fireman once.
We did not prevent nor protect against fire.
We showed up after a fire was well underway and attempted to put it out.
Generally all we could do was contain it.

The only fire protection that any possesses is located between their ears. :confused:

/rant off

carry on.

in fairness, fires can spread. especially in cities where housing is closest.
fire fighters prevent the original fire from claiming other people's property.

[pcosmar]

in fairness, fires can spread. especially in cities where housing is closest.
fire fighters prevent the original fire from claiming other people's property.

True, containment was all we could do. Keep it from spreading.
That was also the main reason for all the metal roofs you see in Key West.

[Anti Federalist]

What area do you live in? I'm curious because I have only lived in government-utility-nightmare hell and would like a break from it.

Fairly rural NH. ;)

And the one "service" that is usually nominally private in other places, electric service, is, in my town, run by the town citizens as non profit co-op type of operation.

Result, some of the cheapest electric rates I've ever paid.

[torchbearer]

we use mostly volunteer fire firefighters in louisiana.
we have full-timers, but we have more volunteers than any other.

to pay for those services, the fire department could charge for their services- which should be covered by any fire insurance or the owner.

[Elwar]

What area do you live in? I'm curious because I have only lived in government-utility-nightmare hell and would like a break from it.

Even better...run for city council on the plank of privatizing services.

[MikeStanart]

I've lived in towns with private fire stations. I currently have private garbage service and private water and electric.

People's heads explode when they hear someone advocate private fire stations and garbage service. It is unimaginable to them.

I would like to hear any cases of private police.

I mean, this kinda stuff is obviously on the bottom of the totem pole as far as issues in this country, but I totally agree with the idea of private fire stations and trash collection. However, I seriously question the idea of private police. In theory, a policeman's motivation is to uphold the law, not make money. If there was a private police force, the company's motivation would be monetary compensation; and I fear they may abuse whatever power they have in order to increase arrests / increase income.

I mean, it's similar to police quotas (which we all hate) but these police wouldn't meet quotas due to pressure from managers, but rather they would arrest excessively because it would benefit them.

[torchbearer]

Even better...run for city council on the plank of privatizing services.

that's my plans. i've been talking about waste management with a lot of attorneys in town. they like my ideas. in fact, it has been attempted before, and the private waste management company we already have in this area would do the job cheaper than the city. right now, you have to still pay the public fee, even if you get the private provider.

[tremendoustie]

I guess I could see the police force privatized on a contractual basis. Perhaps several police force companies bid for a 5 year contract. You still have to pay for it through taxes, but through competition you probably get better service.


I could see how that could be an improvement, if it were done right.



I could never really figure out how a private police force could be paid privately though...criminals don't tend to be in much of a place to pay for the service of being arrested.


I think people could subscribe to it, the same way you subscribe to garbage pickup.



And the private court system would have to be a seperate entity from the police force or they'd just arrest people randomly just to get more money.

I agree, they should be independent. They could be hired as designated arbiters between individuals and businesses, for any particular contract, and between police forces, to settle conflicts.

[tremendoustie]

I mean, this kinda stuff is obviously on the bottom of the totem pole as far as issues in this country, but I totally agree with the idea of private fire stations and trash collection. However, I seriously question the idea of private police. In theory, a policeman's motivation is to uphold the law, not make money. If there was a private police force, the company's motivation would be monetary compensation; and I fear they may abuse whatever power they have in order to increase arrests / increase income.

I mean, it's similar to police quotas (which we all hate) but these police wouldn't meet quotas due to pressure from managers, but rather they would arrest excessively because it would benefit them.

Right, but they could be paid as a subscribed service, rather than per arrest. That would make them motivated to provide the best protection possible, without opening themselves up to liability, or arresting people needlessly.

[Brian Defferding]

I mean, this kinda stuff is obviously on the bottom of the totem pole as far as issues in this country, but I totally agree with the idea of private fire stations and trash collection. However, I seriously question the idea of private police. In theory, a policeman's motivation is to uphold the law, not make money. If there was a private police force, the company's motivation would be monetary compensation; and I fear they may abuse whatever power they have in order to increase arrests / increase income.

I mean, it's similar to police quotas (which we all hate) but these police wouldn't meet quotas due to pressure from managers, but rather they would arrest excessively because it would benefit them.

I agree on the police front. I am a minarchist Libertarian, and that's the part where I believe taxes collected into an impartial system is necessary. But that's about as far as I go. Maybe roads too.

[Brian Defferding]

Fairly rural NH. ;)

And the one "service" that is usually nominally private in other places, electric service, is, in my town, run by the town citizens as non profit co-op type of operation.

Result, some of the cheapest electric rates I've ever paid.

Damn, that would be nice if we had stuff like that here. My electricity is for-profit and privately provided but it's regulated like in other states. Trash removal is a city government service, as is fire department services.

[.Tom]

Through voluntary payments for services or voluntary charity for those who can't afford it.

Pretty simple if you ask me. No need for theft.

[torchbearer]

Through voluntary payments for services or voluntary charity for those who can't afford it.

Pretty simple if you ask me. No need for theft.

It works on the small scale.
I'm from a small town. Population 200. We have a voluntary government, with voluntary contributions for community projects, and user taxes for community water. (most people have their own water wells)
We have a completely voluntary government comprised of the local families that have been there for generations.
In that environment, a true minarchist paradise can be found.
I truly believe Thomas Jefferson's ideas of devolution of power to the lowest levels is the key to liberty, and the protection of liberty from tyrants.
Each level of government above the local level should have less power... and the furthur away the government, the least amount of power it would have.
If my home town turned into a tyranny, it would only effect 200 people, and the resolution would be quick.
Tyranny on the federal level will be hard to remove and cost a large amount of patriot blood to absolve.

[tremendoustie]

It works on the small scale.
I'm from a small town. Population 200. We have a voluntary government, with voluntary contributions for community projects, and user taxes for community water. (most people have their own water wells)
We have a completely voluntary government comprised of the local families that have been there for generations.
In that environment, a true minarchist paradise can be found.
I truly believe Thomas Jefferson's ideas of devolution of power to the lowest levels is the key to liberty, and the protection of liberty from tyrants.
Each level of government above the local level should have less power... and the furthur away the government, the least amount of power it would have.
If my home town turned into a tyranny, it would only effect 200 people, and the resolution would be quick.
Tyranny on the federal level will be hard to remove and cost a large amount of patriot blood to absolve.

Agreed -- localism is far better. This is true even for voluntary organizations -- it's better to do business with your neighbors than some faceless giant corporation.

[TinCanToNA]

design & build houses that will not burn...free market, that's me!

As the Joker said, "Everything burns!" Things that don't aren't cheap, etc. etc.

I agree with pcosmar. The only fire protection that exists is between the ears.



Also, the comment about the military holding a bake sale to afford a hundred fighters reminded me of a t-shirt I saw about a decade ago. I think it was from the Northern Sun or something, and went like, "You'll know everything's good when the fire station is over-funded and the Air Force has to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber."

[Reason]

//

[Anti Federalist]

Damn, that would be nice if we had stuff like that here. My electricity is for-profit and privately provided but it's regulated like in other states. Trash removal is a city government service, as is fire department services.

Just to make it clear, the distribution is run as a non profit, we buy the electricity from a for profit generator.

We don't have the capacity to generate our own anymore, sadly.

The town voted to dismantle the 1930's vintage generating plant.

It wouldn't have powered a quarter of the town anyways, and I think the last time it was put on the grid was back in the 80s.

Still a shame.