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JP2010
03-23-2010, 10:12 PM
A friend of mine recently forwarded me a question a friend of his had posed: "If/when our Federal Government comes to pilfer, pillage, plunder our property and destroy our lives, what good can a handgun do against an army with advanced weaponry, tanks, missiles, planes, or whatever else they might have at their disposal to achieve their nefarious goals? (I'm not being facetious: I accept the possibility that what happened in Germany, or similar, could happen here; I'm just not sure that the potential good from an armed citizenry in such a situation outweighs the day-to-day problems caused by masses of idiots who own guns.)" If I may, I'd like to try to answer that question. I certainly do not think the writer facetious for asking it. The subject is a serious one that I have given much research and considerable thought to. I believe that upon the answer to this question depends the future of our Constitutional republic, our liberty and perhaps our lives. My friend Aaron Zelman, one of the founders of Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, once told me:

"If every Jewish and anti-nazi family in Germany had owned a Mauser rifle and twenty rounds of ammunition AND THE WILL TO USE IT (emphasis supplied, MV), Adolf Hitler would be a little-known footnote to the history of the Weimar Republic."

Note well that phrase: "and the will to use it," for the simply-stated question, "What good can a handgun do against an army?", is in fact a complex one and must be answered at length and carefully. It is a military question. It is also a political question. But above all it is a moral question which strikes to the heart of what makes men free, and what makes them slaves. First, let's answer the military question. Most military questions have both a strategic and a tactical component. Let's consider the tactical.

A friend of mine owns an instructive piece of history. It is a small, crude pistol, made out of sheet-metal stampings by the U.S. during World War II. While it fits in the palm of your hand and is a slowly-operated, single-shot arm, it's powerful .45 caliber projectile will kill a man with brutal efficiency. With a short, smooth-bore barrel it can reliably kill only at point blank ranges, so its use requires the will (brave or foolhardy) to get in close before firing. It is less a soldier's weapon than an assassin's tool. The U.S. manufactured them by the million during the war, not for our own forces but rather to be air-dropped behind German lines to resistance units in occupied Europe. Crude and slow (the fired case had to be knocked out of the breech by means of a little wooden dowel, a fresh round procured from the storage area in the grip and then manually reloaded and cocked) and so wildly inaccurate it couldn't hit the broad side of a French barn at 50 meters, to the Resistance man or woman who had no firearm it still looked pretty darn good. The theory and practice of it was this: First, you approach a German sentry with your little pistol hidden in your coat pocket and, with Academy-award sincerity, ask him for a light for your cigarette (or the time the train leaves for Paris, or if he wants to buy some non-army-issue food or a perhaps half-hour with your "sister"). When he smiles and casts a nervous glance down the street to see where his Sergeant is at, you blow his brains out with your first and only shot, then take his rifle and ammunition. Your next few minutes are occupied with "getting out of Dodge," for such critters generally go around in packs. After that (assuming you evade your late benefactor's friends) you keep the rifle and hand your little pistol to a fellow Resistance fighter so they can go get their own rifle.

Or maybe you then use your rifle to get a submachine gun from the Sergeant when he comes running. Perhaps you get very lucky and pickup a light machine gun, two boxes of ammunition and a haversack of hand grenades. With two of the grenades and the expenditure of a half-a-box of ammunition at a hasty roadblock the next night, you and your friends get a truck full of arms and ammunition. (Some of the cargo is sticky with "Boche" blood, but you don't mind terribly.)

Pretty soon you've got the best armed little maquis unit in your part of France, all from that cheap little pistol and the guts to use it. (One wonders if the current political elite's opposition to so-called "Saturday Night Specials" doesn't come from some adopted racial memory of previous failed tyrants. Even cheap little pistols are a threat to oppressive regimes.)

They called the pistol the "Liberator." Not a bad name, all in all. Now let's consider the strategic aspect of the question, "What good can a handgun do against an army....?" We have seen that even a poor pistol can make a great deal of difference to the military career and postwar plans of one enemy soldier. That's tactical. But consider what a million pistols, or a hundred million pistols (which may approach the actual number of handguns in the U.S. today), can mean to the military planner who seeks to carry out operations against a populace so armed. Mention "Afghanistan" or "Chechnya" to a member of the current Russian military hierarchy and watch them shudder at the bloody memories. Then you begin to get the idea that modern munitions, air superiority and overwhelming, precision-guided violence still are not enough to make victory certain when the targets are not sitting Christmas-present fashion out in the middle of the desert.

I forget the name of the Senator who observed, "You know, a million here and a million there, and pretty soon you're talking about serious money." Consider that there are at least as many firearms--handguns, rifles and shotguns--as there are citizens of the United States. Consider that last year there were more than 14 million Americans who bought licenses to hunt deer in the country. 14 million--that's a number greater than the largest five professional armies in the world combined. Consider also that those deer hunters are not only armed, but they own items of military utility--everything from camouflage clothing to infrared "game finders", Global Positioning System devices and night vision scopes. Consider also that quite a few of these hunters are military veterans. Just as moving around in the woods and stalking game are second nature, military operations are no mystery to them, especially those who were on the receiving end of guerrilla war in Southeast Asia. Indeed, such men, aging though they may be, may be more psychologically prepared for the exigencies of civil war (for this is what we are talking about) than their younger active-duty brother-soldiers whose only military experience involved neatly defined enemies and fronts in the Grand Campaign against Saddam. Not since 1861-1865 has the American military attempted to wage a war athwart its own logistical tail (nor indeed has it ever had to use modern conventional munitions on the Main Streets of its own hometowns and through its' relatives backyards, nor has it tested the obedience of soldiers who took a very different oath with orders to kill their "rebellious" neighbors, but that touches on the political aspect of the question).

But forget the psychological and political for a moment, and consider just the numbers. To paraphrase the Senator, "A million pistols here, a million rifles there, pretty soon you're talking serious firepower." No one, repeat, no one, will conquer America, from within or without, until its citizenry are disarmed. We remain, as a British officer had reason to complain at the start of our Revolution, "a people numerous and armed." The Second Amendment is a political issue today only because of the military reality that underlies it. Politicians who fear the people seek to disarm them. People who fear their government's intentions refuse to be disarmed. The Founders understood this. So, too, does every tyrant who ever lived. Liberty-loving Americans forget it at their peril. Until they do, American gun owners in the aggregate represent a strategic military fact and an impediment to foreign tyranny. They also represent the greatest political challenge to home-grown would-be tyrants. If the people cannot be forcibly disarmed against their will, then they must be persuaded to give up their arms voluntarily. This is the siren song of "gun control," which is to say "government control of all guns," although few self-respecting gun-grabbers such as Charles Schumer would be quite so bold as to phrase it so honestly.

The rest is here (http://billstclair.com/blog/stories/handgun.html).

Do you recognize the author's name?

Anti Federalist
03-23-2010, 10:19 PM
Do you recognize the author's name?

III percent Mike? Sure I do...

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/

AuH20
03-23-2010, 10:54 PM
III percent Mike? Sure I do...

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/

You listen to his interviews? Very insightful stuff.

AmericaFyeah92
03-23-2010, 10:55 PM
Good Stuff.

But one thing I've found that most populist, internal revolutions have in common is that they form around a charismatic, militant leader. Without someone like that, I don't think any amount of "armed citizenry" will do any good. Of course, charismatic leaders present problems of their own, not the least of which is that they often grab onto power once they've destroyed the previous regime.

But i digress. Isn't it interesting how similar the calls to end "gang violence" today are to the Reconstruction/Jim Crow era laws banning Blacks from owning firearms? Something I'm sure most liberals would vehemently deny.

AuH20
03-23-2010, 11:13 PM
7:30 mark. Listen. It brought a smile to my face:

YouTube - Pt3 Mike Vanderboegh Armed march on Washington April 19th (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWYn0BPrh8o&feature=related)

noxagol
03-23-2010, 11:19 PM
Whenever someone says that to me, I ask them "If a few thousand arabs hiding in caves and towns can give the most advanced military the world has known the trouble it is having, then imagine what a few million armed Americans could do to that same military."

emazur
03-23-2010, 11:49 PM
I didn't read your entire post but I have a response to your question. noxagol gave you some food for though, but also consider this - what if rebel factions within the army refused to turn against the American populace, and in fact rebelled against against the army itself? Outwardly rebel factions, rebel moles within the establishment army, in combination with an armed populace "with the will to use it" could overcome an attack against the American people or hold things to a stalemate. I'm wondering if there is a historical example of this.

Anti Federalist
03-23-2010, 11:51 PM
Whenever someone says that to me, I ask them "If a few thousand arabs hiding in caves and towns can give the most advanced military the world has known the trouble it is having, then imagine what a few million armed Americans could do to that same military."

+1

That is, paraphrased, my standard response as well.

BlackTerrel
03-23-2010, 11:57 PM
Whenever someone says that to me, I ask them "If a few thousand arabs hiding in caves and towns can give the most advanced military the world has known the trouble it is having, then imagine what a few million armed Americans could do to that same military."

It depends... if the government wanted to the could drop a big bomb on those Arabs and the war would be over. Depends on what they're trying to accomplish.

Me personally I've lived in some pretty rough parts of this universe. I have a gun to protect myself and it probably saved my life more than once. I won't say that people that rely on the police to protect them are idiots, but they definitely are naive.

Anti Federalist
03-24-2010, 12:05 AM
It depends... if the government wanted to the could drop a big bomb on those Arabs and the war would be over. Depends on what they're trying to accomplish.

There have already been some pretty large bombs dropped in that theater.

The only option left is a MOAB or nukes, and if TPTB decided to do that, I suspect other nations would "pre-empt" us, NWO directives notwithstanding.

AuH20
03-24-2010, 08:14 AM
I didn't read your entire post but I have a response to your question. noxagol gave you some food for though, but also consider this - what if rebel factions within the army refused to turn against the American populace, and in fact rebelled against against the army itself? Outwardly rebel factions, rebel moles within the establishment army, in combination with an armed populace "with the will to use it" could overcome an attack against the American people or hold things to a stalemate. I'm wondering if there is a historical example of this.

The biggest potential monkeywrench in any plan to utilize the military as a domestic presence is that roughly 45% of the military originates from the geographic region known as the South. Many of these boys are not going to turn their guns on their friends and neighbors. Yes, there has been a disturbing conditioning program afoot with new recruits but it's not widespread.

Dunedain
03-24-2010, 08:24 AM
The military would be torn apart in the subburbs. Lots of windows to point a rifle out.

bruce leeroy
03-24-2010, 08:28 AM
The military would be torn apart in the subburbs. Lots of windows to point a rifle out.


especially in the southern metro areas
for instance dallas fort worth
there is a lot of undeveloped land even in the inner city of dallas
now the older northern cities could be occupied without that much trouble, but the spread out metro areas of the south are a different story

ibaghdadi
03-24-2010, 09:41 AM
I agree with everything that was discussed so far. But I think there's a dimension everyone has missed - we all know it's not a matter of ability. The American populace is definitely capable of putting up a hell of a fight. But ability is nothing without willingness.

In the end it boils down to willingness and organization. Otherwise the great American resistance war can easily turn into riots, racial massacres, Feds confiscating weapons and people willingly turning them over. AmericaFyeah92 said it right - there has to be a leader, but it's more than a leader, imho.

It's weird, but the article is eerily reminiscent of the writings of the Al-Qaeda strategist Abu Musab Al-Souri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Nasar) (aka "Engineer of the New Al-Qaeda"). I don't mean this in a creepy way - when I see the same arguments given from two opposite sides of the spectrum, it normally means that there's a lot of truth to them.

Al-Souri wrote a 1600-page book about (among other things) why revolutions happen, what ingredients are required for them to happen, and when and why they succeed or fail. He defined a successful revolution as one that produces a new, viable state. He went on to "shortlist" countries that can have a successful revolution. The wide availability of weapons/guns, and a "weapons culture", were on top of his list.

An open question I had after reading his book was "Does what he describes apply only to Islamic countries, or are these general principles applicable to any society?" I guess the article in the OP answered this question for me.


Iyad

fj45lvr
03-24-2010, 11:22 AM
one handgun took out Lincoln.

pcosmar
03-24-2010, 11:30 AM
one handgun took out Lincoln.

Good point.
And one handgun can acquire another, better weapon.

But a better point is it is NOT one handgun against an army.

It is many millions of guns in the hands of citizens v an army.

That should be remembered. ;)

YouTube - Militia killing the "BORG" myth with numbers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae74oMMQ4ak)

Rael
03-24-2010, 11:48 AM
Do you have any idea the damage a flamethrower can do? You can take out tanks with them. And they are completely legal! And easily homemade. Although I don't recommend it, you could turn into a crispy critter.

The point is, even without guns, the average person could be quite formidable with a bit of know how.

Rael
03-24-2010, 11:52 AM
The military would be torn apart in the subburbs. Lots of windows to point a rifle out.

Not to mention that pretty much wherever the go, they have a big disadvantage: they don't know the terrain as well as the people who live in the area. Maps and GPS are no substitute for first hand knowledge of the area.

AuH20
03-24-2010, 11:53 AM
Do you have any idea the damage a flamethrower can do? You can take out tanks with them. And they are completely legal! And easily homemade. Although I don't recommend it, you could turn into a crispy critter.

The point is, even without guns, the average person could be quite formidable with a bit of know how.

Congratulations! Welcome to the LIST! :D;) (Wave to our curious friends, the Federales) :D

pcosmar
03-24-2010, 11:53 AM
Do you have any idea the damage a flamethrower can do? You can take out tanks with them. And they are completely legal! And easily homemade. Although I don't recommend it, you could turn into a crispy critter.

The point is, even without guns, the average person could be quite formidable with a bit of know how.

Yup,
And I can only imagine what a bunch of those "rednecks" they love to insult could do with a shop full of tools and some heavy equipment. ;)

:D

AuH20
03-24-2010, 11:54 AM
Yup,
And I can only imagine what a bunch of those "rednecks" they love to insult could do with a shop full of tools and some heavy equipment. ;)

:D

See the Killdozer! ;)

Deborah K
03-24-2010, 11:54 AM
There are a lot of military and law enforcement who won't turn against Americans: http://oathkeepers.org/oath/

Rael
03-24-2010, 11:58 AM
Yup,
And I can only imagine what a bunch of those "rednecks" they love to insult could do with a shop full of tools and some heavy equipment. ;)

:D


Reminds me of George Carlin's take on flamethrowers

"Think for a moment about the concept of the flamethrower. Okay? The flamethrower. Because we have them. Well, *we* don't have them, the army has them. That's right. We don't have any flamethrowers. I'd say we're fucked if we have to go up against the army, wouldn't you? But we have flamethrowers. And what this indicates to me, it means that at some point, some person said to himself, "Gee, I sure would like to set those people on fire over there. But I'm way to far away to get the job done. If only I had something that would throw flame on them." Well, it might have ended right there, but he mentioned it to his friend. His friend who was good with tools. And about a month later, he was back. "Hey, quite a concept!" WHHOOOOOOOOSSHHH! And of course the army heard about it, and they came around. "We'd like to buy about five hundred-thousand of them please. We have some people we'd like to throw flame on. Give us five hundred thousand and paint them dark brown. We don't want anyone to see them."

pcosmar
03-24-2010, 11:59 AM
See the Killdozer! ;)

Seen it.
Also note. Monster trucks, Pumpkin Chuckers. Tater guns, Radio controlled aircraft, Model rocketry, etc.

American ingenuity is not dead. It hangs out in barns and garages all over this land. :cool:

Rael
03-24-2010, 12:01 PM
See the Killdozer! ;)

It's a great video. He didn't hurt anyone.

I'm opposed to suicide though. I don't like the fact that he killed himself.

AuH20
03-24-2010, 12:03 PM
This is somewhat off-topic, but it's been confirmed that they've had federal snipers perched in elevated spots around the capital during these tea party protests. I guess they're more concerned than they let on.

Deborah K
03-24-2010, 12:06 PM
This is somewhat off-topic, but it's been confirmed that they've had federal snipers perched in elevated spots around the capital during these tea party protests. I guess they're more concerned than they let on.

They were on the roof during the revolution march too.

pcosmar
03-24-2010, 12:09 PM
They were on the roof during the revolution march too.

Having stared down the barrels of LE guns more times than I care to remember,,,

Smile ;)

It fucks with their heads.

Rael
03-24-2010, 12:15 PM
Congratulations! Welcome to the LIST! :D;) (Wave to our curious friends, the Federales) :D

Lol. The government does not need to worry about people exercising their 1st amendment rights.

When people are no longer talking and venting, that's when they should be worried. As long as people keep talking, nothing out of hand is going to occur.

AuH20
03-24-2010, 12:20 PM
Lol. The government does not need to worry about people exercising their 1st amendment rights.
When people are no longer talking and venting, that's when they should be worried. As long as people keep talking, nothing out of hand is going to occur.

It was Rahm Emmanuel who recently uttered that the "first amendment is highly overrated." He's almost daring the citizenry to proceed to Plan B.

http://www.fireandreamitchell.com/2010/01/18/rahm-emanuel-the-first-amendment-is-highly-overrated/

Rael
03-24-2010, 12:22 PM
It was Rahm Emmanuel who recently uttered that "first amendment is highly overrated." He's almost daring the citizenry to proceed to Plan B.

http://www.fireandreamitchell.com/2010/01/18/rahm-emanuel-the-first-amendment-is-highly-overrated/

Right. As long as people exercise Amendment 1, things will stay peaceful, until the people move to Amendment 2. Perhaps the order was intentional? :D

Anti Federalist
03-24-2010, 12:26 PM
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince Government, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Deborah K
03-24-2010, 12:28 PM
HAVE we 'petitioned for redress'? Bob Schulz with 'We the People' is the only one I know who petitions for redress.

pcosmar
03-24-2010, 12:32 PM
HAVE we 'petitioned for redress'? Bob Schulz with 'We the People' is the only one I know who petitions for redress.

I'm guessing,,

http://www.rallyinstitute.com/_/rsrc/1251707498512/home/organizers-guide/Tea%20Party%20Crowd.jpg

yea.

DamianTV
03-24-2010, 12:35 PM
What Good Can a Handgun Do Against an Army.....?

You just need one bullet. Shoot their leader.

Anti Federalist
03-24-2010, 12:38 PM
I'm guessing,,

http://www.rallyinstitute.com/_/rsrc/1251707498512/home/organizers-guide/Tea%20Party%20Crowd.jpg

yea.

For a while now...NYC 2004

http://www.ccmep.org/2002_articles/Iraq/newyork.jpg

Deborah K
03-24-2010, 12:42 PM
Actually guys, that's "freedom to peaceably assemble". A redress of grievances is a process:http://www.givemeliberty.org/RTPLawsuit/SignPetitions.htm

Deborah K
03-24-2010, 12:44 PM
First Amendment has 5 rights:

freedom of religion
freedom of the press
freedom of speech
freedom to assemble
freedom to petition for redress of grievances

Anti Federalist
03-24-2010, 12:47 PM
Actually guys, that's "freedom to peaceably assemble". A redress of grievances is a process:http://www.givemeliberty.org/RTPLawsuit/SignPetitions.htm

Jefferson was writing colloquially and before the Constitution was written.

"Redress of grievances" is a catch all phrase for pleading your case in multiple forums, the Parliament, the King's court, local governors, peaceful assemblies and so on.

Deborah K
03-24-2010, 12:51 PM
Jefferson was writing colloquially and before the Constitution was written.

"Redress of grievances" is a catch all phrase for pleading your case in multiple forums, the Parliament, the King's court, local governors, peaceful assemblies and so on.

Okay so I'm splitting hairs. ;)

Pericles
03-24-2010, 01:43 PM
Let me check with George Washington and Ho Chi Minh and get back with you on that .....;)

jmdrake
03-24-2010, 01:57 PM
A friend of mine owns an instructive piece of history. It is a small, crude pistol, made out of sheet-metal stampings by the U.S. during World War II. While it fits in the palm of your hand and is a slowly-operated, single-shot arm, it's powerful .45 caliber projectile will kill a man with brutal efficiency. With a short, smooth-bore barrel it can reliably kill only at point blank ranges, so its use requires the will (brave or foolhardy) to get in close before firing. It is less a soldier's weapon than an assassin's tool. The U.S. manufactured them by the million during the war, not for our own forces but rather to be air-dropped behind German lines to resistance units in occupied Europe. Crude and slow (the fired case had to be knocked out of the breech by means of a little wooden dowel, a fresh round procured from the storage area in the grip and then manually reloaded and cocked) and so wildly inaccurate it couldn't hit the broad side of a French barn at 50 meters, to the Resistance man or woman who had no firearm it still looked pretty darn good. The theory and practice of it was this: First, you approach a German sentry with your little pistol hidden in your coat pocket and, with Academy-award sincerity, ask him for a light for your cigarette (or the time the train leaves for Paris, or if he wants to buy some non-army-issue food or a perhaps half-hour with your "sister"). When he smiles and casts a nervous glance down the street to see where his Sergeant is at, you blow his brains out with your first and only shot, then take his rifle and ammunition. Your next few minutes are occupied with "getting out of Dodge," for such critters generally go around in packs. After that (assuming you evade your late benefactor's friends) you keep the rifle and hand your little pistol to a fellow Resistance fighter so they can go get their own rifle.

A one shot wildly inaccurate government issued zip gun? Call me crazy, but I'd rather take a knife to that gunfight. I remember a story from near the beginning of the Iraq war where an insurgent killed a soldier by cutting his throat while he was shopping for CDs at a bazaar. That or a crossbow. Can be built with simple shot tools and is deadly and accurate from further out than what's described above. Plus the Pakistanis make AK47's with hand tools.

http://www.vintageprojects.com/archery/cross-bow-plans.html

Hand guns are for personal self defense. Rifles are for dealing with invading armies.

osan
03-24-2010, 08:34 PM
There have already been some pretty large bombs dropped in that theater.

The only option left is a MOAB or nukes, and if TPTB decided to do that, I suspect other nations would "pre-empt" us, NWO directives notwithstanding.

AFAIK, at least one MOAB has been used in Afghanistan. It is, more or less. a terror weapon.