Standing Your Ground Against Police

[disorderlyvision]

YouTube - Santa Fe Police Confront Man for Open Carring Legally (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BwQQSo9YX4)

[sevin]

They may as well say, "Show me your papers."

The officers were actually pretty friendly and fairly reasonable, but they all seem to have this idea that they can demand you present your ID.

What it says at the end is correct. They WILL lie to intimidate you into consenting. Don't fall for it.

[Cinderella]

Most cops ask for a lot more than they have any right to....because then CAN. it is legal for them to ask ANYTHING, and if we are weak enough or scared enough to give in, then shame on us.

[charrob]

a few years ago i had worked overtime very very late to complete end of year documentation that was required by my job. so it was like 1:00 am in the morning when i was driving home. all of a sudden i had lights flashing behind me to pull over.

i knew i had done nothing wrong. (-was just listening to the radio and was in no hurry and was not speeding).

the officer comes up to my window and asks for id. i asked him what i had done wrong. he stated that the light on my license plate was too dim and that this was illegal.

so what could i do? i showed him my id, he used his flashlights all in the backseat of my car (presumably in hopes of finding something illegal) then he went back to his car with my id, taking forever, to run records i suppose. then came back and said i was free to go, but that i should have this taken care of.

the next day i took my car to Goodyear and spent my saturday afternoon in a Goodyear waiting room. The technician came to me later in the waiting room and said that there was nothing wrong with the light on my license plate. -that it was a little dim, but that it was well within legal limits. -that it would have costed a fortune to do all the re-wiring required to make it brighter.

so basically, i got stopped for NOTHING. harassed for NOTHING. and wasted an entire saturday afternoon for NOTHING.

what is a citizen to do?

[Krugerrand]

a few years ago i had worked overtime very very late to complete end of year documentation that was required by my job. so it was like 1:00 am in the morning when i was driving home. all of a sudden i had lights flashing behind me to pull over.

i knew i had done nothing wrong. (-was just listening to the radio and was in no hurry and was not speeding).

the officer comes up to my window and asks for id. i asked him what i had done wrong. he stated that the light on my license plate was too dim and that this was illegal.

so what could i do? i showed him my id, he used his flashlights all in the backseat of my car (presumably in hopes of finding something illegal) then he went back to his car with my id, taking forever, to run records i suppose. then came back and said i was free to go, but that i should have this taken care of.

the next day i took my car to Goodyear and spent my saturday afternoon in a Goodyear waiting room. The technician came to me later in the waiting room and said that there was nothing wrong with the light on my license plate. -that it was a little dim, but that it was well within legal limits. -that it would have costed a fortune to do all the re-wiring required to make it brighter.

so basically, i got stopped for NOTHING. harassed for NOTHING. and wasted an entire saturday afternoon for NOTHING.

what is a citizen to do?

You should be able to sue for unlawful detention.

[Chester Copperpot]

yeah it seems lots of cops if they need an excuse to pull you over will just say they saw you swerving..


I didnt know courts ruled that cops can lie to obtain consent.. HEy OP, do you know the court case that, that was stated in?

[ladyjade3]

Remind them about innocent until proven guilty and stuff.

[charrob]

You should be able to sue for unlawful detention.

cool... i had no idea that could be done.

[BuddyRey]

These guys just can't stand the idea of somebody else claiming the natural right and ability to arm himself. It's the same Kindergarten mentality of kids who want to be the only one allowed to play with a certain toy, and nobody else can have it!

[anaconda]

Do the police need probable cause to "confirm" that someone open carrying is "not a felon?" I would not think so. Can anyone chime in here?

[anaconda]

I wish this fellow would have simply stated that he was legally monitoring the accountability and proper behavior of public servants. And that his proximity to the officer's traffic stop was in no way interfering with his ability to perform his job function.

[phill4paul]

Pro-tip: No the laws of the state in which you choose to get into this kind of engagement. It seems the videographer knew the laws, but being able to site them would have been much better.
Many gun forums and sites have this information available.
Cite the specific code. This immediately puts you at the advantage as their are so many laws the LE is not aware of specifics. Tell them that as you have broken no law then there authority has no validation.
In short prepare, especially if you are looking for the drama of video.
Overall, it was a great video that left the officers questioning each other about how they could have handled the situation better. LOL.

[Athan]

Man they should make these types of encounters into a TV series out of this. It's informative, and entertaining.
Like "COPS" but catered to a more intelligent audience.

:D

[phill4paul]

Man they should make these types of encounters into a TV series out of this. It's informative, and entertaining.
Like "COPS" but catered to a more intelligent audience.

:D

Absolutely brilliant idea. However, I don't think the CIA will be allowing any media to be doing that.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

YouTube - Santa Fe Police Confront Man for Open Carring Legally (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BwQQSo9YX4)

When riots broke out in Cincinnati and Los Angeles, the police, those sworn to preserve and protect, were ordered away retreating to protect the respective governments of those cities and the special interests that make up their aristocracies. Even the emergency personnel could not get through to serve the people as the were often shot at. It is the militia who is supposed to stand and fight for the people. This is why off duty police officers should never be allowed to work as security guards as they will be called off to abandon their posts in times of emergencies.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Pro-tip: No the laws of the state in which you choose to get into this kind of engagement. It seems the videographer knew the laws, but being able to site them would have been much better.
Many gun forums and sites have this information available.
Cite the specific code. This immediately puts you at the advantage as their are so many laws the LE is not aware of specifics. Tell them that as you have broken no law then there authority has no validation.
In short prepare, especially if you are looking for the drama of video.
Overall, it was a great video that left the officers questioning each other about how they could have handled the situation better. LOL.

The little prostitute will always be disadvantaged as she will always be an idiot (client) of the law. This is why the Lord Jesus created a new Civil Purpose in the New Covenant for the slaves -- Love thy neighbor as thyself. This is a paradox as slaves weren't allowed to own property but most often met under overturned fishing vessels to worship their new faith, thus the need to post watchmen as lookouts. As ones neighbor became the person sitting next to him or her, then their souls became the property.

[BlackTerrel]

Interesting video... thanks for posting.

[catdd]

That was a pretty intense scene. I know it must have been difficult for him to keep his composure and wits about him.
Cordova was trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

[phill4paul]

The little prostitute will always be disadvantaged as she will always be an idiot (client) of the law. This is why the Lord Jesus created a new Civil Purpose in the New Covenant for the slaves -- Love thy neighbor as thyself. This is a paradox as slaves weren't allowed to own property but most often met under overturned fishing vessels to worship their new faith, thus the need to post watchmen as lookouts. As ones neighbor became the person sitting next to him or her, then their souls became the property.

Not to be disrespectful but I prefer to speak in generic terms. Anytime people throw out Bible axioms in a conversation I tend to think of this scene from Cape Fear at about 1:13

YouTube - Cape Fear last scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLcwxURMca8)

While it is may seem clear to you it is speaking in tongues to me and I have no impetus to translate. Again no disrespect. If you'd care to translate I'd appreciate.

[ghengis86]

If you're ever stopped for open carrying or just walking down the street and a pig asks for your ID, ask them the following:

"Do you have reasonable articulable suspiscion that I am committing a crime and if so, can you tell me what law I am breaking? Because if not, the supreme court has ruled that you cannot compel me to show you my ID."

It also helps to know the at least the chapter in you state that covers firearms and related offenses. They are trained to only think in terms of rules, codes and laws. If you give them the impression that you know enough about the law, they will move on to weaker, less informed citizens who will gladly genuflect to the boys in blue.

[TRIGRHAPPY]

If you're ever stopped for open carrying or just walking down the street and a pig asks for your ID, ask them the following:

"Do you have reasonable articulable suspiscion that I am committing a crime and if so, can you tell me what law I am breaking? Because if not, the supreme court has ruled that you cannot compel me to show you my ID."

It also helps to know the at least the chapter in you state that covers firearms and related offenses. They are trained to only think in terms of rules, codes and laws. If you give them the impression that you know enough about the law, they will move on to weaker, less informed citizens who will gladly genuflect to the boys in blue.

Actually, unless you're suspected of committing a crime, they can't even stop you legally. The reason the one officer kept saying "this is for my safety" is because he had a vague understanding of Terry vs. Ohio which allows officers to "stop and frisk" if they have a reasonable fear for their safety. However, once the officers stated that he committed no crime and all they wanted was to "make sure you're not a felon" that was the green light to walk away. They played their hand and showed that they had no tangible suspicion that he had committed (or intended to commit) a crime.

They must have specific, tangible suspicion that he is committing a specific crime in order to "detain" him. To be "detained" is any action by the police officer short of arrest where the individual walking away would be prohibited. The officer had no reasonable fear for his safety because there was a complete lack of suspicion the individual had committed a crime.

With this said, know your state (and local) laws very well. There could easily be a state or local law that says to open carry you are required to present identification to police officers when asked.

In a situation like this, ask the officer if you would be violating any laws by walking away. Asking "Am I free to go" leaves a lot of room for wiggling out of answering the question. If the officer says you would be breaking the law by walking away, you've been legally detained and have grounds to sue (in a situation like this in which he has no authority to violate your fourth amendment right to freedom from unreasonable "seizure"). To be detained is to have been seized.

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Not to be disrespectful but I prefer to speak in generic terms. Anytime people throw out Bible axioms in a conversation I tend to think of this scene from Cape Fear at about 1:13

YouTube - Cape Fear last scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLcwxURMca8)

While it is may seem clear to you it is speaking in tongues to me and I have no impetus to translate. Again no disrespect. If you'd care to translate I'd appreciate.

It is important to understand the inversion created when juxtaposing the bright face of Abraham the Father to that of a faceless, nameless prostitute (a face represents authority).
While Jesus spent half His ministry preaching in the temple blessing the laws of the Jews as well as the vibrant jubilee economy that they had established on the legal precedence of the Ten Commandments, He then left that place quite abruptly seemingly content with spending the other half of His ministry preaching the Gospel to *prostitutes. By Jewish law, Jesus was allowed to heal other Jews by touch while his ministry was limited to discussing only matters concerning the law and the Old Testament with His **Disciples; meanwhile, in contrast, Jewish law also prevented Him from touching the Gentiles (dogs) while he was only allowed to speak the Gospel to prostitutes (who represented the nations). After blessing the Jews and their Ten Commandment based economy, thus condemning the slaves to a life in in damnation, Jesus then gave the slaves a New Covenant to live by, a lone commandment, to "love thy neighbors as thyself."
While the Jewish economy is bound to the law and prospers through legal precedence, the new Christian economy is freed from the law and went on to prosper through Civil Purpose.
This should help explain a lot.
*Jesus own mother Mary was treated as a prostitute
**The Disciples believed Jesus was the Son of God not because He preached the Gospel to them, but because He performed miracles.

[phill4paul]

It is important to understand the inversion created when juxtaposing the bright face of Abraham the Father to that of a faceless, nameless prostitute (a face represents authority).
While Jesus spent half His ministry preaching in the temple blessing the laws of the Jews as well as the vibrant jubilee economy that they had established on the legal precedence of the Ten Commandments, He then left that place quite abruptly seemingly content with spending the other half of His ministry preaching the Gospel to *prostitutes. By Jewish law, Jesus was allowed to heal other Jews by touch while his ministry was limited to discussing only matters concerning the law and the Old Testament with His **Disciples; meanwhile, in contrast, Jewish law also prevented Him from touching the Gentiles (dogs) while he was only allowed to speak the Gospel to prostitutes (who represented the nations). After blessing the Jews and their Ten Commandment based economy, thus condemning the slaves to a life in in damnation, Jesus then gave the slaves a New Covenant to live by, a lone commandment, to "love thy neighbors as thyself."
While the Jewish economy is bound to the law and prospers through legal precedence, the new Christian economy is freed from the law and went on to prosper through Civil Purpose.
This should help explain a lot.
*Jesus own mother Mary was treated as a prostitute
**The Disciples believed Jesus was the Son of God not because He preached the Gospel to them, but because He performed miracles.

Thanks for the explanation and cliff notes. ;)