Regarding People Who WANT the Collapse to Happen...

[sevin]

Over the past few years there has been a growing trend in the liberty movement: people who seem to want to give up. They all say the same thing: "Bring on the collapse!"

I think I understand the reasoning behind this statement. The idea is that the sooner the government spends itself into default, the sooner the system will collapse and we'll all (apparently) be free again.

But how can they be so sure it will happen this way?

The U.S. government may be running higher deficits every year, but at the same time it is still growing more and more powerful. This wouldn't be possible for a small country, but the U.S. is a huge empire with vast resources, influence, connections and capabilities.

Even when the U.S. government defaults on its debts, it's not going to go quietly into the night. When the collapse happens, don't expect the people in D.C. to say, "Okay, that's it. Let's reduce government and return power to the states." It's far more likely that it will declare a dictatorship, take iron-fisted control of its citizens ransack their bank accounts.

Millions of people died resisting communism in Russia, millions more in China. Should they have just lain down in front of their steamroller governments and said, "Bring on the collapse"?

If that should be our attitude, then why bother? Why support candidates like Rand Paul, Adam Kokesh and Peter Schiff? Why bother protesting things like the Federal Reserve and Obamacare? Hell, why not work AGAINST these candidates and support Obama's Marxist plans for our country? Bring on the collpase, right?

I'm sick of this "bring it on" attitude, and I think in some cases people say it to themselves so they can feel better about not doing anything to help the liberty movement. While they stand on the sidelines and cheer on the collapse, the rest of us will be doing everything we can to stop this republic from turning into a communist wasteland.

I plan to live in the U.S. the rest of my life and I plan to raise my children here. I want to be a part of a new generation of people who are willing to work hard to move things back in the other direction. It's not too late, and I'm not giving up.

[QueenB4Liberty]

Over the past few years there has been a growing trend in the liberty movement: people who seem to want to give up. They all say the same thing: "Bring on the collapse!"

I think I understand the reasoning behind this statement. The idea is that the sooner the government spends itself into default, the sooner the system will collapse and we'll all (apparently) be free again.

But how can they be so sure it will happen this way?

The U.S. government may be running higher deficits every year, but at the same time it is still growing more and more powerful. This wouldn't be possible for a small country, but the U.S. is a huge empire with vast resources, influence, connections and capabilities.

Even when the U.S. government defaults on its debts, it's not going to go quietly into the night. When the collapse happens, don't expect the people in D.C. to say, "Okay, that's it. Let's reduce government and return power to the states." It's far more likely that it will declare a dictatorship, take iron-fisted control of its citizens ransack their bank accounts.

Millions of people died resisting communism in Russia, millions more in China. Should they have just lain down in front of their steamroller governments and said, "Bring on the collapse"?

If that should be our attitude, then why bother? Why support candidates like Rand Paul, Adam Kokesh and Peter Schiff? Why bother protesting things like the Federal Reserve and Obamacare? Hell, why not work AGAINST these candidates and support Obama's Marxist plans for our country? Bring on the collpase, right?

I'm sick of this "bring it on" attitude, and I think in some cases people say it to themselves so they can feel better about not doing anything to help the liberty movement. While they stand on the sidelines and cheer on the collapse, the rest of us will be doing everything we can to stop this republic from turning into a communist wasteland.

I plan to live in the U.S. the rest of my life and I plan to raise my children here. I want to be a part of a new generation of people who are willing to work hard to move things back in the other direction. It's not too late, and I'm not giving up.


I guess it makes you feel like calling your Congressmen and applying for a free speech permit to protest things like the Fed and health care make you feel better. Even though you have to know your Congressman doesn't care about your opinions, except if you live in District 14. lol And there are way too many people who have lost any sort of critical thinking skills and they are just not capable of any rational understanding. I think unless Obama slams a dictatorship in our faces, most people just won't come on over to our side. And then it'll be too late.

[Bruehound]

It is the only way the federal government will go away. The fuse has already been lit(in 1971) and it is inevitable. Just be prepared to lead and advocate liberty because when people are in despair and confusion they are looking for new answers. This is when paradigm shifts occur.

[Anti Federalist]

Over the past few years there has been a growing trend in the liberty movement: people who seem to want to give up. They all say the same thing: "Bring on the collapse!"

I think I understand the reasoning behind this statement. The idea is that the sooner the government spends itself into default, the sooner the system will collapse and we'll all (apparently) be free again.

But how can they be so sure it will happen this way?

There is no surety at all.

Not sure what is going to happen next, I just know what is here now, is not sustainable.

So certainly there is some wish to have this end so something could take it's place.

It's like suffering a toothache, pull the damn thing.




Even when the U.S. government defaults on its debts, it's not going to go quietly into the night. When the collapse happens, don't expect the people in D.C. to say, "Okay, that's it. Let's reduce government and return power to the states." It's far more likely that it will declare a dictatorship, take iron-fisted control of its citizens ransack their bank accounts.

Very possible. How much more of iron fist do we have to suffer under than what we have now? I know what I'll do.




If that should be our attitude, then why bother? Why support candidates like Rand Paul, Adam Kokesh and Peter Schiff? Why bother protesting things like the Federal Reserve and Obamacare? Hell, why not work AGAINST these candidates and support Obama's Marxist plans for our country? Bring on the collpase, right?

So that when the day comes, in our time, we, as well, can say:

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince Government, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.


I'm sick of this "bring it on" attitude, and I think in some cases people say it to themselves so they can feel better about not doing anything to help the liberty movement. While they stand on the sidelines and cheer on the collapse, the rest of us will be doing everything we can to stop this republic from turning into a communist wasteland.

I plan to live in the U.S. the rest of my life and I plan to raise my children here. I want to be a part of a new generation of people who are willing to work hard to move things back in the other direction. It's not too late, and I'm not giving up.

I think the choice has been taken away from us for at least the last 40 years or so.

[nobody's_hero]

There are some people who simply will not be motivated to participate in the electoral process until they are wholeheartedly convinced that not a single aspect of their lives is within their control. Until that moment, they'd rather not 'do politics.'

As Adam Kokesh says, "You don't do politics? That's okay. Politics will keep doing you."

We have not yet seen the worst, and I'm beginning to believe we can merely prolong the inevitable.

Until very recently, I wanted to do my part to keep this bill from coming forward, but I've watched the frog swim unwittingly in the gradually heating water for too long, and I'm starting to resent the frog moreso than those who've been turning up the heat.

Therefore, I want this bill to reach deeply into lives. I want healthcare to be so insufferably bureaucratic that every person eligible to vote decides that they can no longer afford the luxury of apathy. Ron Paul talks about the 'silent majority', and I believe they are out there, sleeping. It is time to wake them up in a way that only our Congress can.

If this bill has no other favorable purpose, let us hope that it will at least get more people out of their basements and into the streets.

[Michigan11]

Trends are our friends....

[sevin]

If this bill has no other favorable purpose, let us hope that it will at least get more people out of their basements and into the streets.

I am very hopeful that this will happen.

I'm just concerned that there are some people who would rather sit and root for the collapse than actually do anything to help change this country.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[nobody's_hero]

I am very hopeful that this will happen.

I'm just concerned that there are some people who would rather sit and root for the collapse than actually do anything to help change this country.

I'd be thinking about what to do with all the newcomers to the political arena after this bill passes. (you'll have to catch them before they run off to Rush Limbaugh and he rallies them for 'George Bush part 3.', which lands us no better off)

Those who want the Obamacare bill to pass are simply ready to move past the 'protest' ("please mister master don't pass this bill pretty please O gracious one") stage and jump right into the 'revolution' ("take this @#*% and stick it where the sun doesn't shine") stage.

We just know we can't do it alone.

Congress is going to have to help us recruit angry voters, as I said, in the way that only it can.

[ctiger2]

I look at it as Rock Bottom for a drug addict. The sooner we collapse, the better.

[FreeTraveler]

It's pretty simple, really.

Women's suffrage wasn't the result of voting. It took people getting off their asses and getting in the face of TPTB.

Civil rights weren't the result of voting. They were the result of people getting off their asses and getting in the face of TPTB.

The war in Vietnam didn't end because of voting. It ended because people got off their asses and got in the face of TPTB.

Nothing changes until the people are so fed up TPTB have no other recourse.

[rancher89]

Sevin, I'm with you, I've felt the same thing--is it because we are "older?"

I saw and lived the 60's and thought the country would not survive, it did.

I fear what will happen when the unsustainable finally hits the brick wall. I've expected it for close to two years now, and yet the drum keeps beating.

We are now, apparently, past the point of being able to repay the debt, so the unthinkable, defaulting, is now not only probable, it's a realitiy.

I tend to think the worse is going to happen, so at least, I'm pleasantly surprised when things work out.

I don't want the crap to hit the fan. I don't want the violence and the chaos that will come with things falling apart. The uncertainty of what we willl end up with chills me to the bone, for, mark my words, those in power will grasp onto power to the bitter end.

I would much rather that things do not spiral out of control. We may not be in control of things, but we are making a difference. Here and there, everywhere ..... we meet and talk to people. They may not agree with us, but they are "seeing the light" so to speak. They know things are not right, not the way our founders meant things to be.

I want to think that we can pull this off, that we can avoid the "brick wall" and the chaos, police state and the uprising that will follow.

I really do.:)

[RedStripe]

Obama's Marxist plans for our country

lol :rolleyes:

sorry i just cringe every time i see someone on this forums make that tired claim

[rancher89]

It's pretty simple, really.

Women's suffrage wasn't the result of voting. It took people getting off their asses and getting in the face of TPTB.

Civil rights weren't the result of voting. They were the result of people getting off their asses and getting in the face of TPTB.

The war in Vietnam didn't end because of voting. It ended because people got off their asses and got in the face of TPTB.

Nothing changes until the people are so fed up TPTB have no other recourse.

I'm not so sure that our demontrating ended the war in Vietnam. It was unsustainable. Period. I was there, looking back, we did the right thing and I wouldn't tell anyone NOT to demonstrate....

Not that I don't think that protesting doesn't help or work, but the reality is having a sustainable voice WITHIN the political realm makes a difference. (apologies to those who don't think this way, I'm with you, but can not give up the ghost until "the fat lady sings.") It helps if it is "respectable," meaning that you have the political base ( you have people getting elected on "your" platform.)

I didn't "know" about the political system when I was protesting in the 60's. If I knew then, what I know now, I'd been at local political conventions and getting people elected that could turn the tide.....

How many protests have happened in DC? How many changed things? There may have been memorable deomonstrations, but the bottom line is that demontrations, in DC, are only a barometer of what the general populus is motivated enough to travel to DC about. It's the local demonstrations, that don't always get picked up by the media that really tell the story.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[rancher89]

Draft a document that states coercive compliance will no longer be conformed to. Clearly articulate all grievances in your document, obtain signatures from all interested parties, and publish your document freely to the world. Peacefully resist coercion.

If you don't have the numbers for that to work you do not have the political numbers for elections. So you either organize in a manner that can bring about a majority or continue selling ideas people are not buying in large numbers.

Exactly

[wrestlingwes_8]

The U.S. government may be running higher deficits every year, but at the same time it is still growing more and more powerful. This wouldn't be possible for a small country, but the U.S. is a huge empire with vast resources, influence, connections and capabilities.

Even when the U.S. government defaults on its debts, it's not going to go quietly into the night. When the collapse happens, don't expect the people in D.C. to say, "Okay, that's it. Let's reduce government and return power to the states." It's far more likely that it will declare a dictatorship, take iron-fisted control of its citizens ransack their bank accounts.


The same thing could have been said about the Roman Empire; that it was to powerful and vast to collapse. Well, we all know what happened to them...

[wgadget]

To the OP:

Come, now...Let's not call it a collapse. Let's call it a necessary LIQUIDATION. It's part of the business cycle. It's a needed CORRECTION.

God knows we can't live in this bubble land forever.

Just sayin.

[Lafayette]

"Every government agency at every level is merely an administrative unit of the monolithic, fiat currency-fueled, Warfare/Welfare/Homeland Security Leviathan that must collapse – and the sooner, the better – if civilization is to recover." - William Norman Grigg



In the mean time ill continue to teach people what i've learned from Dr Paul and those of you here and ill continue to donate to liberty candidates when i can.

But if anyone honestly thinks 99% of those in DC give a flying fuck what we think they are insane. An unless we get 60 Rand Paul's in the senate and 300 Ron's in the house, a collapse is guaranteed.

[georgiaboy]

Turn this around, though.

What happens if we get our way, and Congress and the presidency, state & local gov'ts are majority replaced with RP'ers?

It's gonna be suffering time for a good while yet until things get turned around.

Either way I look at it, whether we do it Keynesian or Austrian, we got a piper to pay.

I reckon some collapsing is gonna happen either way. And yes, I'd rather it get over and done with while I can still help give future generations the future they deserve.

[messana]

People reap what they sow.

If they didn't want 'ObamaCare', PATRIOT Act, a destroyed currency, Cap & Trade, bailouts for the rich, wars that do nothing for us, high regulations, and a bunch of other shit, then they shouldn't have voted to get those Neo-cons and Progressives into office.

Once the shit hits the fan, people can fight amongst themselves, but at the end of the day the only people they can blame are the ones in the mirror. By the time we get more Ron Pauls into office it may be too late. No use fixing a burning house.

I do what I can for the liberty candidates, but my biggest priority is protecting myself and see if I can jump ship before the house of cards come crashing down.

[sevin]

It is the only way the federal government will go away. The fuse has already been lit(in 1971) and it is inevitable. Just be prepared to lead and advocate liberty because when people are in despair and confusion they are looking for new answers. This is when paradigm shifts occur.


"Every government agency at every level is merely an administrative unit of the monolithic, fiat currency-fueled, Warfare/Welfare/Homeland Security Leviathan that must collapse – and the sooner, the better – if civilization is to recover." - William Norman Grigg

...if anyone honestly thinks 99% of those in DC give a flying fuck what we think they are insane. An unless we get 60 Rand Paul's in the senate and 300 Ron's in the house, a collapse is guaranteed.


There is no surety at all.

Not sure what is going to happen next, I just know what is here now, is not sustainable.

I agree with these points. Our government and financial system is unsustainable and it WILL collapse.

But what I'm saying is that we shouldn't be hoping for things like Cap and Trade and Obamacare to hurry it along. It will happen soon enough, and when it does, I'd rather we still have a lot of freedoms left so we're able to rebuild the system without being thrown into camps.




Those who want the Obamacare bill to pass are simply ready to move past the 'protest' ("please mister master don't pass this bill pretty please O gracious one") stage and jump right into the 'revolution' ("take this @#*% and stick it where the sun doesn't shine") stage.

I think it's possible to move onto that stage without the country becoming an all-out socialist dictatorship.

[jkm1864]

I'm actually looking forward to the tyranny and super taxes. I want to see the sheeple suffer under the heavy yoke of government. The reason I say that is because for the last two years I have been called a conspiracy theorist and strange. I'm not strange I just want to know things. I have a hunger for knowledge that has brought me to this point. While these idiots have been entertaining themselves the government has stolen them blind. So I'm looking forward to them facing reality. I want to see French revolution style justice. The best part is the sheeple will be the ones rioting and going crazy. I'll just sit back and cheer them on as I'm thinking how stupid they are.

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

The truth is, the American people have been blinded by the unseen hand of the government for generations now. At the moment of any crisis, the first thing out of your average American's mouth is "what is the government going to do about it" Until this nation's economy collapses, and people see the government's true colors when there is no more wealth to tax, when they see the true intentions of big government that is the only way they will truly learn. Sure, in the mean time we need to educate and push for change, but it's a steep uphill battle against the establishment ,elites, corrupt media, a corrupt system, and the worst......a delusional public.

[sevin]

I want to see French revolution style justice. The best part is the sheeple will be the ones rioting and going crazy. I'll just sit back and cheer them on as I'm thinking how stupid they are.

You won't be cheering when the rioters and looters come to your door.

[AuH20]

You won't be cheering when the rioters and looters come to your door.

Exactly. We better start digging our moats. ;)

[torchbearer]

The sooner it collapses the sooner the debt stops pilling up.
the longer it takes, the more destruction will happen.
we still have some industry left. let's start over now, while we have the equipment to rebuild.

[fj45lvr]

Gary North just had a commentary this last week where he states that the only way it will change is through a collapse (commentary on bureaucracy controlling the people).

I agree with North and it is in sight....the sooner the better

[awake]

The faster the collapse happens the faster that the war and welfare state shows itself for what it really is.

[Old Ducker]

The power elite know that as long as they can maintain a semblance of normalcy, the general public will quiesce and obey, even as their wealth is looted and control of their lives slips away.
This of course cannot last; the system is unsustainable. This latest FED bubble will burst and in the not-too-distant future. When that happens its going to be very ugly. This isnt Zimbabwe where most people are rural and other currencies are available. A police state is almost the certain fate for America and I have little doubt law enforcement will resort to whatever is required to quell urban riots among the underclass. But if these riots (or mass demonstrations of civil disobedience) come from the suburbs, would they fire on the general populace? I don't know. I think we'll find out and at that time, they, the "sheeple" will finally understand.

One way to prevent this occurance is a war of a magnititude as to require the mobilization of the entire country. People would accept rationing, price and wage controls and a litany of other emergency measures if they felt it was necessary and justified. Iran is a good place to start it.

[Romulus]

Just be careful what you wish far.. something that will take its place could be far worse.

[torchbearer]

Just be careful what you wish far.. something that will take its place could be far worse.

it will be worse, but it won't be until that point that the government addicts admit they have a problem.

[fj45lvr]

it will be worse, but it won't be until that point that the government addicts admit they have a problem.

Just maybe individual states will once again take back some sanity from the insane federal power.

I would not be surprised if strong viable states develop over the actions of the puppet masters in D.C. I can definitely see states in the west giving the Feds the middle finger and using the massive amount of federal lands again for natural resources.

[Anti Federalist]

You won't be cheering when the rioters and looters come to your door.

Hmmm...

"The scoops are on the way!!!"

Ten bonus points for the first person to name that reference quote.

Seriously...

I don't know that rioters and looters will be coming.

I think this whole thing will play out like the fall of the USSR: short, quick upheaval with only pockets of sporadic violence.

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

[Arion45]

Turn this around, though.

What happens if we get our way, and Congress and the presidency, state & local gov'ts are majority replaced with RP'ers?

It's gonna be suffering time for a good while yet until things get turned around.

Either way I look at it, whether we do it Keynesian or Austrian, we got a piper to pay.

I reckon some collapsing is gonna happen either way. And yes, I'd rather it get over and done with while I can still help give future generations the future they deserve.

Why do you use "we"? I didn't spend any of that money and certainly didn't agree to it. I have absolutely no responsibility to this countries debt. People need to start to think as individuals and stop referring to the collective.

[Arion45]

You won't be cheering when the rioters and looters come to your door.

This the same tactic used to push through the bailouts. Are you a libertarian?

[mtj458]

I'm conflicted on this issue. We are in so deep right now that the only way to fix things is probably just to start the country over. But the short term effects of a dollar meltdown would be catastrophic at the same time- regardless, I think the future unfunded liabilities from social security and medicare all but insure that we will face a drastic financial crises sometime over the next 50 years, and I'm not sure that it's even avoidable at this point.

[andrewh817]

I don't think anyone wants the short-term chaos that generally occurs upon the collapse of a financial system, but they want the long-term benefits of a smaller government. I agree with the OP that when the collapse happens, the government is not just going to voluntarily shrink.

[sevin]

This the same tactic used to push through the bailouts. Are you a libertarian?

Of course I am.

I don't think I've successfully made my point in this thread. I'm basically in agreement with all of you that the collapse is inevitable and that it needs to happen.

What inspired me to start the thread is the people who WANT Obamacare to happen in order to hurry the collapse along. I don't want that. I want as few new laws and restrictions as possible. The more of our freedoms the government takes away, the more difficult it will be to get them back after the collapse occurs.

I said that to jkm1864 because he seems to crave seeing people rioting in the streets, but I don't think he realizes just how awful that could be.