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View Full Version : A flat tariff is superior to internal taxation




sratiug
03-14-2010, 12:02 AM
I call on everyone on RPF to agree to these simple facts. A flat tariff is superior to internal taxation for funding the federal government. A flat tariff is less detrimental to free trade than internal taxes.

rp08orbust
03-14-2010, 12:05 AM
I don't care whether I'm being taxed for buying something from Texas or China--I'm still being taxed and it hurts the same. All sales taxes are "internal" as far as I'm concerned.

low preference guy
03-14-2010, 12:33 AM
Government should be funded voluntarily.

But from a production perspective, the most damaging tax is that which prevents the creation of capital. If your country is underdeveloped and it imports most of its capital, then an internal sales tax is better. If it's the opposite and all its imports are end goods, then a tariff is better.

eric_cartman
03-14-2010, 01:29 AM
I call on everyone on RPF to agree to the simple fact that we only need one thread on tariffs... and that we don't need to start a new thread for people to read our posts when we already had a good discussion going in the other thread.

low preference guy
03-14-2010, 01:33 AM
I call on everyone on RPF to agree to the simple fact that we only need one thread on tariffs... and that we don't need to start a new thread for people to read our posts when we already had a good discussion going in the other thread.

link?

sratiug
03-14-2010, 02:07 AM
I don't care whether I'm being taxed for buying something from Texas or China--I'm still being taxed and it hurts the same. All sales taxes are "internal" as far as I'm concerned.

It is not the same. The Chinese are not helping you pay the cost of your government, Texans are.

eric_cartman
03-14-2010, 02:13 AM
link?

umm.... look one post down

Tariffs are bad
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=235603

AlexMerced
03-14-2010, 09:18 AM
It is not the same. The Chinese are not helping you pay the cost of your government, Texans are.

If China has a true competitive advantages then we should buy from china, cause then I'll have more money in my pocket for other goods. Plus if you didn't have all the currency manipulation the demand for their goods would appreciate their currency and close the gap free market style.\

Government should be funded voluntarily with a few small fees that go directly to certain services such as a "military fee" which could be $500 a year, and Legislation Fee for "$200" and a Judicial Fee

This way you at least feel like you get something for your money cause your know where those particular dollars are going. Then on this fee collection form the government can propose a list of say 10 projects and people can check of any they'd like to pay into and how much.

This would tell the government truly how some of these programs are valued by society.

Not perfect, but aaaaa lot better.

low preference guy
03-14-2010, 12:38 PM
It is not the same. The Chinese are not helping you pay the cost of your government, Texans are.

Americans pay for tariffs. When tariffs are implemented, the importers just increase the price of their gods so the tariff is transferred to Americans. I'm not saying that tariffs are worse, but your argument isn't sound.

Pacis
03-14-2010, 03:17 PM
I don't accept the tariffs or internal taxes dichotomy. Neither are good. I abhor both of them.

disorderlyvision
03-14-2010, 03:53 PM
all taxation is theft

SevenEyedJeff
03-14-2010, 04:28 PM
I don't like any taxes, either. However, I will take tariffs as an alternative to the income or payroll tax ANY DAY.

noxagol
03-14-2010, 06:46 PM
Tariffs allow American companies to rape the consumer instead. HURRAY! American consumers have to pay millions more a year for sugar because of tariffs and quotas.

America use to pay the highest wages, had the cheapest goods, and exported everywhere.

sratiug
03-15-2010, 06:34 AM
Tariffs allow American companies to rape the consumer instead. HURRAY! American consumers have to pay millions more a year for sugar because of tariffs and quotas.

America use to pay the highest wages, had the cheapest goods, and exported everywhere.

Internal taxes cause Americans to pay millions more a year for everything made in the USA because of corporate income taxes, personal income taxes, social security taxes, payroll taxes, etc. American companies outsource production because of these taxes and fire American workers and move their factories overseas. But wait, there's more...

Not only must Americans pay more for American made products, anyone in the world that wants to buy an American product has to pay more. That is the fundamental difference that causes internal taxes to be far more detrimental than a flat tariff could ever be to our free trade.

noxagol
03-15-2010, 06:57 AM
Internal taxes cause Americans to pay millions more a year for everything made in the USA because of corporate income taxes, personal income taxes, social security taxes, payroll taxes, etc. American companies outsource production because of these taxes and fire American workers and move their factories overseas. But wait, there's more...

Not only must Americans pay more for American made products, anyone in the world that wants to buy an American product has to pay more. That is the fundamental difference that causes internal taxes to be far more detrimental than a flat tariff could ever be to our free trade.

False Dichotomy. I favor no government, so I favor no taxes. Stop acting like dislike of tariffs is favor towards other taxes. ALL taxes are internal taxes, ALL taxes are theft. I don't think in terms of this country or that country, all are people and taxes hurt everyone, except, of course, the ones collecting them.

jsu718
03-15-2010, 07:50 AM
False Dichotomy. I favor no government, so I favor no taxes. Stop acting like dislike of tariffs is favor towards other taxes. ALL taxes are internal taxes, ALL taxes are theft. I don't think in terms of this country or that country, all are people and taxes hurt everyone, except, of course, the ones collecting them.

Not a false dichotomy. The way things are you can't just instantly remove all government. You have to shrink it bit by bit. Moving to a better tax is better than doing nothing at all. Opposing incremental change just means that nothing will ever get done to make things better.

noxagol
03-15-2010, 08:58 AM
Not a false dichotomy. The way things are you can't just instantly remove all government. You have to shrink it bit by bit. Moving to a better tax is better than doing nothing at all. Opposing incremental change just means that nothing will ever get done to make things better.

In order to make change, you have to have a clear goal of where you want that change to go otherwise you will be making changes in the blind. Right now, we depend on imports to provide a lot of the things we use. If we were to switch to protectionist style tariffs to fund everything, we would be in a world of hurt as the average consumer won't even be able to afford the really cheap clothe at walmart or any other store because they shot up ennormously in price.

Not to mention, right now you can't even think about cutting taxes because we have to cut spending some trillion dollars a year before we can even begin to fathom to cut spending.

And yes, it is a false dichotomy. You say the only choices are this or this, when there are actually 4 choices, this, that, none, or both. You also bring out red herrings.

sratiug
03-15-2010, 09:22 AM
In order to make change, you have to have a clear goal of where you want that change to go otherwise you will be making changes in the blind. Right now, we depend on imports to provide a lot of the things we use. If we were to switch to protectionist style tariffs to fund everything, we would be in a world of hurt as the average consumer won't even be able to afford the really cheap clothe at walmart or any other store because they shot up ennormously in price.

Not to mention, right now you can't even think about cutting taxes because we have to cut spending some trillion dollars a year before we can even begin to fathom to cut spending.

And yes, it is a false dichotomy. You say the only choices are this or this, when there are actually 4 choices, this, that, none, or both. You also bring out red herrings.

That's why a constitutional amendment with a 10 year phaze over from internal taxes to tariffs is the answer. The ten year period gives industry time to adjust, and gives Americans time to cut government spending and revenue overall. By claiming a flat tariff will make imports too expensive you are admitting that the current system is what is destroying American production.

There is nothing protectionist about using a flat tariff to fund the current level of government.

Krugerrand
03-15-2010, 09:35 AM
Poll tax. If you don't think your vote is worth $x.00, then don't vote.

tmosley
03-15-2010, 09:56 AM
Poll tax. If you don't think your vote is worth $x.00, then don't vote.

I'd go further, and allow people to vote as many times as they want, provided they pay the tax each time.

Even further beyond that, the poll tax would be the only method o funding the government, to prevent monied interests from coming in and spending money to buy votes to appropriate more money for themselves (from tariffs, for example).

Of course, such a system couldn't really be called a government, but would more closely resemble a civic organization of some sort. Like a masonic temple, or a Lyons club.

Krugerrand
03-15-2010, 11:10 AM
It's been almost a year since I posted this reference to writings by Peter Schiff's father. I could go with poll tax only. I'll have to give that multiple voting thing more consideration. My first inclination is a one vote max.

I'd still call it a government - since the laws would still apply to everybody. Choosing not to vote would not exempt you from society.


Okay here it is. In Irwin Schiff's "How an Economy Grows and Why It Doesn't"

Really big file: http://www.restoretherepublic.org/documents/how-an-economy-grows.pdf
(p56...60)

or links to pages:
http://www.takelifeback.com/hegawid/
(p50...54)

Some quotes:
"If a vote costs nothing it's worth nothing."
"The ignorant and irresponsible will vote if it's free, and such votes are dangerous!"
"Let the stupid and who-cares citizens stay home! If he pays to vote he'll pay more attention to the issues and the candidates."

fsk
03-15-2010, 04:41 PM
Debating "Which taxation system is least evil?" is like debating "What's the proper technique for raping someone?"

The correct answer is "All taxation is theft! Who needs a government violence monopoly? Everything that government does would be more efficient in a really free market."

People get caught up in alternative taxation schemes because they don't want to see the truth. All taxation is theft. Government is one huge extortion racket. There's no way to patch a fundamentally corrupt system.

Zippyjuan
03-15-2010, 06:46 PM
If people want their government to do things for them, then the people need to be willing to pay for them and that means taxes.

sratiug
03-15-2010, 07:17 PM
Debating "Which taxation system is least evil?" is like debating "What's the proper technique for raping someone?"

The correct answer is "All taxation is theft! Who needs a government violence monopoly? Everything that government does would be more efficient in a really free market."

People get caught up in alternative taxation schemes because they don't want to see the truth. All taxation is theft. Government is one huge extortion racket. There's no way to patch a fundamentally corrupt system.

When we switch to a flat tariff, the immense cost of government will be more apparent to everyone, and it will be possible to avoid taxation by buying American made products. That will force the government to live on a smaller budget.

In this case it's more like you are paying a body guard. Do you want to continue paying your body guard to oversee a group of foreigners gang raping you, or do you want to pay your bodyguard to stop others from raping you.

fsk
03-15-2010, 08:21 PM
Now I remember why I got disgusted and stopped posting here.

Taxation bears no resemblance to any free market exchange of services.

I'm willing to pay the fair free market price for police protection.

I object to paying at gunpoint for a monopoly seller of police protection.

I'm always surprised when slaves are so eager to defend their masters. Arguing in favor of taxation is arguing against freedom.

*ALL* taxation is theft, no matter what type. Until you realize that, you're running around in intellectual circles.

Legend1104
03-15-2010, 10:28 PM
Now I remember why I got disgusted and stopped posting here.

Taxation bears no resemblance to any free market exchange of services.

I'm willing to pay the fair free market price for police protection.

I object to paying at gunpoint for a monopoly seller of police protection.

I'm always surprised when slaves are so eager to defend their masters. Arguing in favor of taxation is arguing against freedom.

*ALL* taxation is theft, no matter what type. Until you realize that, you're running around in intellectual circles.

Thank you. I agree. That is why I started the other thread on tariffs. I could not believe that I acutally saw people supporting tariffs, and some of them were not supporting tariffs as in, "oh they are better than interternal taxation." They made it seem like tariffs as a whole were a good thing. I stated that taxes/tariffs are theft. I understand that the minimal government function of protection of rights/property must be funded, but the idea of using tariffs to run economic policy is beyond me. Internal taxes and tariffs both have their weaknesses. I disagree that one is better than the other.

Anti Federalist
03-15-2010, 10:59 PM
I don't like any taxes, either. However, I will take tariffs as an alternative to the income or payroll tax ANY DAY.

That.

+1

And they are constitutional.

Dforkus
03-16-2010, 06:54 AM
Tarrifs are more in-line with the original intent of the founding fathers (given they've existed in one form or another since the beginning of the country)...

There isn't a perfect tax/tarrif, but for revenue collection its about the best you can do.

Nationwide
03-16-2010, 11:52 AM
umm, our internal tax IS a tariff. Unapportioned capitation (direct) taxes are unconstitutional. The federal income tax is a tariff, or excise, on privileged federal activity. The amount of which is measured by INCOME, whose definition is not to be found in the internal revenue code. By hiding this definition, along with decades of social conditioning, the banksters have taken a limited benign tariff tax and miss-applied it to make everyone think they have INCOME. The truth is out there.
http://taxhonestyprimer.blogspot.com
http://www.losthorizons.com/Newsletter/SoWhatIsAnExcise.pdf

tmosley
03-16-2010, 12:13 PM
Imposing Tariffs are like shooting yourself in the foot. Imposing income taxes are like shooting yourself in the stomach. Sure, I'd rather be shot in the foot, but really, I'd rather not get shot at all!

jkm1864
03-16-2010, 01:06 PM
Actually I would love a 33% sales tax on all store purchases. The reason I say that is because government does need funding and it gives the poor an option to pay taxes. So when they start crying for more freebies eventually they will shut up...


But then on the other hand I believe if they do that every city needs an open market that is tax free. Everything in this market would be hand made by locals or home grown. The reason I would love to see this is because I'm fed up with the corporate garbage we see today and it would improve our local economy. Yes you might not see a hand made iPod but you would actually see people making hand made clothes, tools, shoes, hats, watches, jewelry and what ever you could imagine.

The poor wouldn't have any reason to bitch either because it's an indirect tax and they would get their alternative.

jkm1864
03-16-2010, 01:16 PM
Here is an idea of how much crap bussinesses have to pay to keep me employed. I make roughly 385 a day when I'm offshore. A contract guy doing the same job for my company makes 600 dollars a day. The guy doing the contract work doesn't get paid more than me as far as my company goes. All the rest is the bs taxes my company pays to keep me employed...


So if your asking me would I rather want 600 a day with consumption tax or 385 with consumption, income, pay roll, social security, unemployent, and any other bs tax i'll choice consumption. Plus I'm tired of working 18 hour days just to benefit the damn Obama crack mothers union.

tmosley
03-16-2010, 03:29 PM
Actually I would love a 33% sales tax on all store purchases. The reason I say that is because government does need funding and it gives the poor an option to pay taxes. So when they start crying for more freebies eventually they will shut up...


But then on the other hand I believe if they do that every city needs an open market that is tax free. Everything in this market would be hand made by locals or home grown. The reason I would love to see this is because I'm fed up with the corporate garbage we see today and it would improve our local economy. Yes you might not see a hand made iPod but you would actually see people making hand made clothes, tools, shoes, hats, watches, jewelry and what ever you could imagine.

The poor wouldn't have any reason to bitch either because it's an indirect tax and they would get their alternative.

You are creating perverse incentives (encouraging people to buy goods that are not produced efficiently), not to mention that enforcement would be a problem.

A better solution is to tell government to F#&K OFF. Nothing they do is good or productive. All of the services that we "need" from them are provided better by a free market.

Anti Federalist
03-16-2010, 08:05 PM
Imposing Tariffs are like shooting yourself in the foot. Imposing income taxes are like shooting yourself in the stomach. Sure, I'd rather be shot in the foot, but really, I'd rather not get shot at all!

Can't argue with that. :D