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lynnf
03-13-2010, 06:48 AM
and, I have to say, couldn't happen to a more deserving guy.
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lynn


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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Thursday, March 11, 2010



CONTACT: Sheldon Good at sgood@sojo.net / 202.745.4625 or

Burns Strider at bstrider@sojo.net / 202.215.2490



FOR MEDIA: After Glenn Beck?s attack on ?social justice,? Rev. Jim Wallis calls Christians to stop watching his show.JIM WALLIS URGES CHRISTIANS TO STOP WATCHING GLENN BECK



WASHINGTON, DC ? Rev. Jim Wallis ? a progressive evangelical leader, author of Rediscovering Values and president of Sojourners (the largest network of progressive Christians in the United States) ? is urging Christians to stop watching Glenn Beck.



Last week, Beck professed that ?Communists are on the left, and the Nazis are on the right? but that ?both subscribe to one philosophy ? social justice.? Beck also urged his listeners to report any churches that subscribe to ?social justice? or ?economic justice? to church authorities.



Wallis is inviting Christians to turn themselves in to Beck as believers in social justice. Wallis said Beck has attacked ?the very heart of our Christian faith, and Christians should no longer watch his show.?



Read Wallis? statement here: http://blog.sojo.net/2010/03/10/glenn-beck-im-a-social-justice-christian/
# # #

Jim Wallis is the founder and president of Sojourners, the largest network of progressive Christians in the United States focused on the biblical call to social justice. Wallis is also author of the New York Times bestsellers God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It and The Great Awakening: Seven Ways To Change The World, Reviving Faith & Politics. His latest book is Rediscovering Values: On Wall Street, Main Street, and Your Street.

Sojourners' mission is to articulate the biblical call to social justice, inspiring hope and building a movement to transform individuals, communities, the church, and the world. Visit www.sojo.net <http://www.sojo.net/>; , and www.GodsPolitics.com <http://www.godspolitics.com/>; .

Stary Hickory
03-13-2010, 07:03 AM
Somehow I don't think a "progressive" evangelical leader is not going to be able to really dent Beck's audience.

I don't see how any Christian can believe in social justice where theft is mandated by force. In their minds it is ok to break one of the ten commandments because they assume a wisdom higher than that of Gods.

MN Patriot
03-13-2010, 07:32 AM
The whole Christian social justice movement is just another leftist attempt at getting people to adopt socialism.

The Communist Prayer

Our Almighty Government in Washington, and lesser Governments in our state capitols, please hear my prayer.
Please bless your faithful public servants who are constructing a society where all our wants and needs are delivered from your generous hand.
Please crush the hopes of the misguided who long for the false promise of liberty. Help them to see the light, to realize our communal security is preferable to freedom.
Please reform the greedy, who value their personal wealth over the public good.
Please crush the demons of Capitalism, tax and convert them into faithful servants of Communism.
Please bless your missionaries who are creating an even more powerful and just Global Government to rule over all humankind.
Amen.

tonesforjonesbones
03-13-2010, 08:00 AM
Social justice is COMMUNISM...and it is NOT a good thing. Any , so called , church that is passing this idea around should be shut down. Now I'm mad at Beck, but on this he is correct. In order to shut down our system, the communists had to infiltrate the evangelical also..and I am quite sure 99 % of the "social justice" churches are like Jeremiah Wright's african identity churches...whose mission is not to worship ...but to be a block of people working for...social justice! Tones

tonesforjonesbones
03-13-2010, 08:04 AM
If you notice that guys' website says Faith, Politics and something else...now, my pastors believe that the church has no place in politics...but to preach the gospel. Individuals most certainly can get involved, but as a church, we are about God's work...not politics. tones

tonesforjonesbones
03-13-2010, 08:13 AM
A general definition of social justice is hard to arrive at and even harder to implement. In essence, social justice is concerned with equal justice, not just in the courts, but in all aspects of society. This concept demands that people have equal rights and opportunities; everyone, from the poorest person on the margins of society to the wealthiest deserves an even playing field.

But what do the words “just” or “fair” mean, and what defines equal? Who should be responsible for making sure society is a just and fair place? How do you implement policies regarding social justice? Alternately, should you legislate for justice in society or merely rely on the moral compass of society’s members?

From a political stance that is leftist, you must legislate to create a just society, and various programs need to exist in order to collect monies needed to even the playing field between rich, middle class, poor and those people who are routinely marginalized by society. Equal rights can be defined as equal access to things that make it possible for people in any societal sector to be successful. Therefore, leftist philosophy would support things like anti-discrimination laws and equal opportunity programs, and would favor taxation, especially of those who make a lot of money, to pay for programs that help provide equality for all.

The far left would argue that there are certain basic needs that must be offered to all. These include things like truly equal education and safety in all schools and programs that would help all children have the financial opportunity to attend college. Far left groups, often termed socialist even if they differ from true definitions of socialism, further argue that a just society cannot be had unless everyone has access to food, safe shelter and medical care. The way to achieve this is through taxation and government implementation of programs that will guarantee these things for all people.

The right political stance equally endorses a just society, but may criticize those who make poor choices and feel that while equal opportunity should exist, a government should not legislate for this. In fact it is argued that social justice is diminished when governments create programs to deal with it, especially when these programs call for greater taxation. Instead, those who have more money should be encouraged to be philanthropic, not by paying higher taxes, which is arguably unjust.

From a religious perspective, you’ll find people all over the political spectrum who argue for social justice. Many Christian groups believe that you bring about justice through Christlike actions of mercy, especially those that help people who have been marginalized by society. Islamic perspective on social justice is similar; one of the Five Pillars of Islam is that all must give to the poor. However, certain sects of Islam promote views of women and men as different; women are not equal to and are subservient to men.

The postmodern critique on the idea of a just society provokes interesting debate. Can there ever be a just society? Can we ever view all people as inherently equal and entitled to the same rights and privileges? It’s hard to know, since most philosophers would argue that no one has ever created a completely just society, where all people have an even chance. Even in the most socialist nations, there is poverty and unequal distribution of wealth.


In societies like the US, which hinge on creating social justice, we have distinct problems, like hungry children, homelessness, and problems with making sure all children receive the same high standard of education. This is no reason to abandon attempting to promote a just society and trying to aim for it. Yet due to the complex nature of society, the US may not ever fully achieve justice for all, and the debate of how to achieve this state is ongoing.

UtahApocalypse
03-13-2010, 08:35 AM
Do people check what the copy and paste before posting?? jeebus I cannot even read that with all the "?" errors strewn threw it.

paulitics
03-13-2010, 09:14 AM
Social justice is COMMUNISM...and it is NOT a good thing. Any , so called , church that is passing this idea around should be shut down. Now I'm mad at Beck, but on this he is correct. In order to shut down our system, the communists had to infiltrate the evangelical also..and I am quite sure 99 % of the "social justice" churches are like Jeremiah Wright's african identity churches...whose mission is not to worship ...but to be a block of people working for...social justice! Tones

He won't talk about the neocon infiltration of the chuches though, does he? Beck's job is to point at the truth through the limited prizm of progressivism vs the world. It isn't that simple, and Beck knows this. His job is to rile one group up against another, and at the same time discredit everything he says with a few drops of poison.

Just because Beck tells the truth some of the time, or even most of the time, does not mean he is on our side. Study controlled opposition, and Beck's face will appear.

Epic
03-13-2010, 10:27 AM
Beck is totally right about "social justice" - it basically is a codeword for government redistribution and increasing socialism.

MRoCkEd
03-13-2010, 10:33 AM
Beck is totally right about "social justice" - it basically is a codeword for government redistribution and increasing socialism.
Agreed... I can't count how many times people have emphasized social justice when they really meant more welfare programs.

j6p
03-13-2010, 11:28 AM
Just wonderful how RPF does no research into the matter. Over at Daily paul Social justice from a church point of view is against government. http://www.dailypaul.com/node/128767

j6p
03-13-2010, 11:32 AM
Here is the OFFICIAL VATICAN DOCUMENTS that teach "social justice" in catholicism. Please find the "socialist" elements in them.

http://www.osjspm.org/social_teaching_documents.aspx

Quote from the header of the first document Rerum Novarum (On the Condition of Labor) -- Pope Leo XIII, 1891:

"This seminal work on modern Catholic social thought addresses the plight of the industrial workers in the wake of the Industrial Revolution. It calls for the protection of the weak and the poor through the pursuit of justice while excluding socialism and class struggle as legitimate principles of change. It affirms the dignity of work, the right to private property, and the right to form and join professional associations."

Teaching people to be advocates for those oppressed unjustly by the government and the poweful is NOT socialism.

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 11:35 AM
and, I have to say, couldn't happen to a more deserving guy.
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lynn


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.

Leftie anyway. Good riddance.

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 11:37 AM
Here is the OFFICIAL VATICAN DOCUMENTS that teach "social justice" in catholicism. Please find the "socialist" elements in them.

http://www.osjspm.org/social_teaching_documents.aspx

Quote from the header of the first document Rerum Novarum (On the Condition of Labor) -- Pope Leo XIII, 1891:

"This seminal work on modern Catholic social thought addresses the plight of the industrial workers in the wake of the Industrial Revolution. It calls for the protection of the weak and the poor through the pursuit of justice while excluding socialism and class struggle as legitimate principles of change. It affirms the dignity of work, the right to private property, and the right to form and join professional associations."

Teaching people to be advocates for those oppressed unjustly by the government and the poweful is NOT socialism.


Oppressed UNJUSTLY being the operative words.

What "social justice" is today is HARDLY THIS, it is REDISTRIBUTION. I've seen advocates of "social justice" in South America, and they are Marxists.

Juan McCain
03-13-2010, 11:40 AM
Mormons for Equality and Social Justice
http://www.gomakecontact.com/mesj/resolutions/resolutions-folder/war-in-Iraq.htm

This doesn't sound like Romney for sure . . . I don't pay attention to Beck.

j6p
03-13-2010, 11:44 AM
Why use an example from Latin America? They have diffrent terms of use. Who are you refering to from Latin America? Missionaires?

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 11:46 AM
Mormons for Equality and Social Justice
http://www.gomakecontact.com/mesj/resolutions/resolutions-folder/war-in-Iraq.htm

This doesn't sound like Romney for sure . . . I don't pay attention to Beck.

Are you kidding me?

"Social Justice" has been taken over by socialists, the same way the environmental movement has been co-opted by those who oppose industrial capitalism and private property rights.

If ANYONE advocates the use of coercive force to accomplish their goal, be it for environmental, religious, social, moral, or economic.... if that action is not one necessary by the government to restrict the unjust application of force and fraud, it must be opposed.

The same people who cited the Just War Theory of St. Augustine are not necessary laissez faire capitalists. They are often economic interventionists, seeking to take from Scrooge and give to Tiny Tim.

This is not what we are about, we are about justice, not theft.

Beck is dead on here.

j6p
03-13-2010, 11:47 AM
Mittens mormonism is calling for social justice? John would disagree with that too. There are way too many apoligic people on this thread for Glen Beck.

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 11:51 AM
Why use an example from Latin America? They have diffrent terms of use. Who are you refering to from Latin America? Missionaires?

Are you kidding me? Social justice advocates throughout the U.S. advocate the use of GOVERNMENT force to redistribute!!!!


READ: LAW LEGISLATION AND LIBERTY, Volume 2: THE MIRAGE OF SOCIAL JUSTICE, by FREDERICH A. HAYEK. (http://www.amazon.com/Law-Legislation-Liberty-Mirage-Justice/dp/0226320839)


"Within a free society, the concept of "social justice" is devoid of meaning and is therefore a harmful cause and misdirection of well-meant efforts. Only a central authority could possibly distribute material goods equally among all people--and this only at the COST of individual liberties and the curtailment of freedom of choice in occupations."

Fight Hayek and Mises on this boys.

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 11:53 AM
Mittens mormonism is calling for social justice? John would disagree with that too. There are way too many apoligic people on this thread for Glen Beck.

Go back to the World Council of Churches (http://www.christiantoday.com/article/world.council.of.churches.decries.global.injustice s/24097.htm), or wherever you're from.

someperson
03-13-2010, 12:00 PM
This thread is a great example of what emotional attachment to public personalities leads to.

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 12:03 PM
Mittens mormonism is calling for social justice? John would disagree with that too. There are way too many apoligic people on this thread for Glen Beck.

This is where your advocates of "social justice" came down (http://www.rhodesia.nl/mission.htm)30 years ago....

Here's what Frederick A. Hayek had to say about your idea:

"It might indeed be said that the main difference between the order of society at which classical liberalism aimed and the sort of society into which it is now being transformed is that the former was governed by principles of individual conduct while the new society is to satisfy the demands for 'social justice'---or, in other words, that the formed demanded just action by the individuals while the later more and more places the duty of justice on authorities with power to command people what to do." Page 65-66 of Law Legislation and Liberty, Vol. 2. The Mirage of Social Justice, 1976 edition.

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 12:03 PM
This thread is a great example of what emotional attachment to public personalities leads to.

We're discussing the lack of merit of social justice, not the shortcomings of any individual.

dwdollar
03-13-2010, 12:10 PM
This thread is a great example of what emotional attachment to public personalities leads to.

I agree.

j6p
03-13-2010, 12:14 PM
Go back to the World Council of Churches, or wherever you're from. Not from there. There are groups that call for SJ and they are progressive. But they are totally not assocatied with the church. For example you have 9/11 truthers they might not agree with what Ron Paul says or does, but they are a sub group. So are you saying that 9/11 truthers are progressive because they want the truth?

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 12:14 PM
I agree.

If you can't substantive disagree and refute Frederich Hayek, why smear people advocating his substantiated arguments?

Well thought out sir, congrats!

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 12:15 PM
Go back to the World Council of Churches, or wherever you're from. Not from there. There are groups that call for SJ and they are progressive. But they are totally not assocatied with the church. For example you have 9/11 truthers they might not agree with what Ron Paul says or does, but they are a sub group. So are you saying that 9/11 truthers are progressive because they want the truth?

We're discussing "Social Justice" Sir, not whatever conspiracy theory you keep in your closet as a hobby-horse.

So you disagree with Mises and Hayek on this?

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 12:19 PM
"It might indeed be said that the main difference between the order of society at which classical liberalism aimed and the sort of society into which it is now being transformed is that the former was governed by principles of individual conduct while the new society is to satisfy the demands for 'social justice'---or, in other words, that the formed demanded just action by the individuals while the later more and more places the duty of justice on authorities with power to command people what to do." Page 65-66 of Law Legislation and Liberty, Vol. 2. The Mirage of Social Justice, 1976 edition.

Frederich Hayek on "Social Justice".... :rolleyes:

j6p
03-13-2010, 12:25 PM
Not sure where Mises comes into this but what you quoted sounds like a Glen Beck talking point. in other words, that the formed demanded just action by the individuals while the later more and more places the duty of justice on authorities with power to command people what to do."

j6p
03-13-2010, 12:30 PM
Like what was said before. There are groups that are new age SJ but according to the church misson it says the complete opposit, of you just posted. SJ can mean anything. What you posted is very vauge. What if 9/11 truthers want SOCIAL JUSTICE for the crimes of 9/11? Will you spin that into Marxism?

dwdollar
03-13-2010, 12:33 PM
If you can't substantive disagree and refute Frederich Hayek, why smear people advocating his substantiated arguments?

Well thought out sir, congrats!

Try this on for well thought out... I'll just wait a few months and you'll be gone. Bye.

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 12:43 PM
Try this on for well thought out... I'll just wait a few months and you'll be gone. Bye.

Who cares who was on this forum first? I was out convincing people, living in the real world, while you were in an echo chamber.


" The systematic pursuit of the ignis fatuus of "social justice" is based throughout on the atrocious idea that political power ought to determine the material position of the different individuals and groups -- an idea defended by the false assertion that must always be and social justice merely wishes to transfer this power from the privileged to the most numerous class. It was the great merit of the market order as it has spread during the last two centuries that it deprived everyone of such power which can only be used in arbitrary fashion." Law Legislation and Liberty, Vol. 2: The Mirage of Social Justice, page 99, 1976 edition.

Try a little Hayek, how does it taste?

j6p
03-13-2010, 12:44 PM
Substantive arguments?
Arguments are someone’s opinions, they are not facts.
Btw: you may need to use spell check John, before you go back and re watch the Glen Beck show.

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 12:44 PM
Like what was said before. There are groups that are new age SJ but according to the church misson it says the complete opposit, of you just posted. SJ can mean anything. What you posted is very vauge. What if 9/11 truthers want SOCIAL JUSTICE for the crimes of 9/11? Will you spin that into Marxism?

I'd quote you some more Hayek: "social justice" is based throughout on the atrocious idea that political power ought to determine the material position of the different individuals and groups -- an idea defended by the false assertion that must always be and social justice merely wishes to transfer this power from the privileged to the most numerous class. It was the great merit of the market order as it has spread during the last two centuries that it deprived everyone of such power which can only be used in arbitrary fashion." Law Legislation and Liberty, Vol. 2: The Mirage of Social Justice, page 99, 1976 edition.

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 12:46 PM
Substantive arguments?
Arguments are someone’s opinions, they are not facts.
Btw: you may need to use spell check John, before you go back and re watch the Glen Beck show.

Arguments can be grounded in facts J6, that's what a substantiated or substantive argument is. Get a beginning debate book on amazon.

j6p
03-13-2010, 12:48 PM
that's what a substantiated or substantive argument is. Eh that makes no sense. Debate book? It seems you cant spell.

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 12:51 PM
that's what a substantiated or substantive argument is. Eh that makes no sense. Debate book? It seems you cant spell.

What word was misspelled?

We're talking about backing up one's argument with facts. That's a substantiated argument, and when such an argument is made, it is a substantive argument.

Again, refute Frederic Hayek.

j6p
03-13-2010, 12:53 PM
We're talking about backing up one's argument with facts.

It's someones opinon

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 12:54 PM
We're talking about backing up one's argument with facts.

It's someones opinon

So words have no objective meaning? Ideas have no meaning?

Isn't it "opinion"?

torchbearer
03-13-2010, 12:56 PM
So words have no objective meaning? Ideas have no meaning?

Isn't it "opinion"?

phenomenology- words are subjective.
Ideas do have meaning.

j6p
03-13-2010, 12:56 PM
agree to disagree with someone elses opinion.

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 12:59 PM
phenomenology- words are subjective.
Ideas do have meaning.

Which is why I am attacking the idea of Social Justice. It is socialism at its core.

j6p
03-13-2010, 12:59 PM
Right on. Words mean diffrent things to diffrent people. Ideas have meaning but sometimes because disagree on ideas. Just because some author writes something, you should not take it at face. So it seems like you read MSN propaganda and except at face.

dannno
03-13-2010, 01:00 PM
To me, "social justice" would mean returning all of the money and wealth stolen from us.. but I know how the elite like to mess with word definitions.

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 01:01 PM
Right on. Words mean diffrent things to diffrent people. Ideas have meaning but sometimes because disagree on ideas. Just because some author writes something, you should not take it at face. So it seems like you read MSN propaganda and except at face.

Which is why we are discussing the IDEA of Social Justice, you know, the "social justice" "based throughout on the atrocious idea that political power ought to determine the material position of the different individuals and groups -- an idea defended by the false assertion that must always be and social justice merely wishes to transfer this power from the privileged to the most numerous class. It was the great merit of the market order as it has spread during the last two centuries that it deprived everyone of such power which can only be used in arbitrary fashion." Law Legislation and Liberty, Vol. 2: The Mirage of Social Justice, page 99, 1976 edition.

If you disagree with Hayek, show me HOW he is wrong. OK?

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 01:02 PM
To me, "social justice" would mean returning all of the money and wealth stolen from us.. but I know how the elite like to mess with word definitions.

That's not social justice, that is just JUSTICE. Justice is every man having his own rights protected.

silentshout
03-13-2010, 01:27 PM
Well, I can't stand Beck, but then again, I've recently left the Democratic party and am now non-affiliated, so I never watched Beck in the first place, except for laughs. He's shooting himself in the foot with this one, though, as many people who watch him are on the religious right.

AuH20
03-13-2010, 01:31 PM
Well, I can't stand Beck, but then again, I've recently left the Democratic party and am now non-affiliated, so I never watched Beck in the first place, except for laughs. He's shooting himself in the foot with this one, though, as many people who watch him are on the religious right.

Those mega churches would have no qualms about using the state to promote their ideas of social justice. Beck is 100% right with his criticism. The constitution has been widdled down over the years with the false claims of social and economic justice.

AuH20
03-13-2010, 01:41 PM
Beck recently said this:


Nowhere does Jesus say, "Hey, if someone asks for your shirt, give the government a coat, and then have the government give him a pair of slacks." You want to help out, you help out.

Given that many of us are libertarians or libertarian minded, we'd probably subscribe to this belief as well.

j6p
03-13-2010, 07:39 PM
Many people have diffrent ideas on what social justice is, it can mean a lot of things.

John Taylor
03-13-2010, 08:53 PM
Many people have diffrent ideas on what social justice is, it can mean a lot of things.

That's like saying you're a "Progressive" because you favor economic, social, artistic, and moral progress....

Well hell, that's not the vernacular meaning.

someperson
03-13-2010, 08:57 PM
That's like saying you're a "Progressive" because you favor economic, social, artistic, and moral progress....
You know, I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of the individuals who have adopted that label for themselves believe it means exactly that lol. There are a lot of individuals who are into politics without being into politics ;)

AuH20
03-13-2010, 09:53 PM
Glenn is proved to be prophetic once again. Look who's shilling for health care reform!!!!!! SON OF A BITCH!!!!! CONTROLLED OPPOSITION TURNCOAT M$%$$% %%$%%%@!!!

http://ncronline.org/print/17396


Twenty-five pro-life Catholic theologians and Evangelical leaders yesterday sent letters to members of Congress urging them not to let misleading information about abortion provisions in the Senate health care bill block passage of sorely-needed reform.

Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good, a Washington-based advocacy group, said that the Senate health bill upholds abortion funding restrictions and supports pregnant women.

Catholic hospitals can burn in hell as well:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/13/AR2010031301114.html?hpid=moreheadlines

tonesforjonesbones
03-13-2010, 11:20 PM
SOcial justice is a MARXIST idea...Marx wrote about it. It means the GOVERNMENT levels the playing field through legislation so that everyone is on equal footing. This is NOT good...the producers will be brought to the level of the leeches....nobody will be able to have more money, a bigger house, a better car, better health care, etc etc etc...OR the people who do will pay for those who are the lazy bums. tones

j6p
03-14-2010, 07:09 AM
Social justice is the concept in which a subjective notion of justice and/or equality is achieved in every aspect of society, rather than the administration of law

Subjective word

Webster

speciallyblend
03-14-2010, 07:21 AM
this sums up beck nicely

YouTube - Jump Smokers 'Don't be a Douchebag' (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ee3xemyQjI)

j6p
03-14-2010, 08:21 AM
It's intresting when people cant refute facts stop posting.

TroySmith
03-14-2010, 08:31 AM
Social justice is the concept in which a subjective notion of justice and/or equality is achieved in every aspect of society, rather than the administration of law

Subjective word

Webster

Social = referring to a group
Justice = referring to equality under the law


Social justice as oppossed to INDIVIDUAL justice. Social justice is redistribution of resources through statism a'la force. Plain and simple.

j6p
03-14-2010, 09:53 AM
It states above if you can read. rather than the administration of law. So you think it's ok to bail out companys but you think it's bad when people get a little money from the gov. There is no logic in what you spew. The consituation states if you do one thing for one group of people you have to do it for the other. Even the Juge Nap. even said this.

j6p
03-14-2010, 09:57 AM
Troy your cointel we are on to the trolls in this fourm. 22 post since 2008

AuH20
03-14-2010, 11:33 AM
Social justice is the concept in which a subjective notion of justice and/or equality is achieved in every aspect of society, rather than the administration of law

Subjective word

Webster

You don't seem to understand that the constitution calls for the protection of equal OPPORTUNITIES as opposed to the forced creation of equal OUTCOMES, aside from the ridiculous judicial interpretation of the 14th amendment. Hence, education and health care is not a right. Social justice more often than not is predicated on the premise of forcing equal outcomes through the suspension and outright taking of other's natural rights.

AuH20
03-14-2010, 11:41 AM
It states above if you can read. rather than the administration of law. So you think it's ok to bail out companys but you think it's bad when people get a little money from the gov. There is no logic in what you spew. The consituation states if you do one thing for one group of people you have to do it for the other. Even the Juge Nap. even said this.

Are you sure you're on the right forum preaching that social welfare is justified just because corporate welfare is being practiced? It's all abhorrent regardless.

Secondly, you're misconstruing social protection rights (i.e. the ruling found in Brown vs. the Board of Education) to the realm of federal and state handouts. No one is entitled to anything from the government aside from the basic responsibilities outlined in article 1.

MelissaWV
03-14-2010, 11:50 AM
Do people check what the copy and paste before posting?? jeebus I cannot even read that with all the "?" errors strewn threw it.

through :)

erowe1
03-14-2010, 11:53 AM
How is this another firestorm? This is just another leftist who doesn't like Glenn Beck's politics, and who never has liked Glenn Beck's politics, instructing his leftist followers who also don't like Glenn Beck's politics and never have, to stop listening to his show, when probably none of them listen to it to begin with.

Now when James Dobson starts telling people to boycott Beck, then I'd say we have the makings of a firestorm. But this guy? Not so much.

MelissaWV
03-14-2010, 11:55 AM
Troy your cointel we are on to the trolls in this fourm. 22 post since 2008

Sadly, you're also the person who was criticizing someone else's post for errors earlier :(

By the way, people stop posting in a thread sometimes when the other party starts doing things like calling people "cointel" and saying that arguments are entirely opinion, there is no real truth, etc.; it gets tiresome trying to convince someone who does not want to be convinced.

No, I don't have a dog in this hunt, but these threads just chase their tail until they spin out, and the person who's still posting declares themselves King of the Internet.

pcosmar
03-14-2010, 12:06 PM
through :)

Sadly, you're also the person who was criticizing someone else's post for errors earlier :(

By the way, people stop posting in a thread sometimes when the other party starts doing things like calling people "cointel" and saying that arguments are entirely opinion, there is no real truth, etc.; it gets tiresome trying to convince someone who does not want to be convinced.

No, I don't have a dog in this hunt, but these threads just chase their tail until they spin out, and the person who's still posting declares themselves King of the Internet.

PWNED

I declare MelissaWV the thread winner.
:cool:

j6p
03-14-2010, 04:48 PM
So much for civil discussion. Looks like people want to copy and paste and not look at the facts. Go watch your Glen Beck reruns. Bye

MelissaWV
03-14-2010, 05:05 PM
So much for civil discussion. Looks like people want to copy and paste and not look at the facts. Go watch your Glen Beck reruns. Bye

Back atcha, guppy :D Have a good 'un!

Liberty Star
03-14-2010, 05:47 PM
Way things is heading, soom Beck will have less viewers than Ron Jeremy.

tonesforjonesbones
03-14-2010, 06:46 PM
Most of the time I don't think I'm on a Ron Paul forum anymore...the site has become very left wing. tones

heavenlyboy34
03-14-2010, 06:48 PM
Most of the time I don't think I'm on a Ron Paul forum anymore...the site has become very left wing. tones

It's because most of the good members got banned or just left. :(

lynnf
03-14-2010, 08:38 PM
Most of the time I don't think I'm on a Ron Paul forum anymore...the site has become very left wing. tones

so, we're left wing because we recognize Beck as the sell-out and misinformation agent that he is?

also, it's natural for people to drift away after the loss of the main candidate's effort (i.e. Ron Paul) and it will be a long time until we make a huge amount of progress so more are likely to drift away, and then the trolls came on, too.
we just have to keep on keeping on until we prevail.

lynn

driller80545
03-14-2010, 08:59 PM
The old posters are still around-just listening and waiting to see what will happen.

torchbearer
03-14-2010, 09:01 PM
i feel old. i'm getting grey in my beard. i'd like to be in a tribe that respects that. ;)

FrankRep
03-14-2010, 09:29 PM
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/14/why-does-glenn-beck-hate-jesus/?xid=huffpo-direct


Why Does Glenn Beck Hate Jesus? (http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/14/why-does-glenn-beck-hate-jesus/?xid=huffpo-direct)


Time.com
March 14, 2010


When Glenn Beck told listeners of his radio show on March 2 that they should "run as fast as you can" from any church that preached "social or economic justice" because those were code words for Communism and Nazism, he probably thought he was tweaking a few crunchy religious liberals who didn't listen to the show anyway. Instead he managed to outrage Christians in most mainline Protestant denominations, African-American congregations, Hispanic churches, and Catholics--who first heard the term "social justice" in papal encyclicals and have a little something in their tradition called "Catholic social teaching." (Not to mention the teaching of a certain fellow from Nazareth who was always blathering on about justice...)

He also managed to bring the National Council of Churches--once a powerful umbrella organization for Christian churches--out from hibernation, in the form of a withering response from leader Peg Chemberlin. Progressive evangelical leader Jim Wallis, taking a page from his conservative counterparts, is calling for Christians to boycott Beck's shows. And Beck has given the folks who come up with slogans every week for church signs plenty of material to work with.After initially doubling-down on his statements, Beck is now trying to walk them back somewhat, making a distinction between religious injunctions for individuals to help the poor and the broader notion that society has an obligation to care for the "least of these." But as religious scholar and blogger Mark Silk points out, that's not what Beck's own tradition--the Latter-Day Saints--believes:


"Not to belabor the point, but the Judeo-Christian tradition from which Beck's Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints springs expects the poor to be provided for as a matter of public law. And indeed, in the days when the LDS Church ran its corner of North America as a theocracy, that's just what it did."

...


Full Story:
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/03/14/why-does-glenn-beck-hate-jesus/?xid=huffpo-direct

silus
03-14-2010, 10:04 PM
Beck is a fraud, but Pastor Jim Wallis is apparently an even bigger fraud. I wish pastors would stop trying to corrupt their message with politics and influence irrelevant to the faith.

Liberty Star
03-14-2010, 10:40 PM
Most of the time I don't think I'm on a Ron Paul forum anymore...the site has become very left wing. tones

It's been going on gradually but ever since Beck planted attack on Debra Medina, there has been bit of a radical change around here.

FrankRep
03-14-2010, 10:46 PM
Most of the time I don't think I'm on a Ron Paul forum anymore...the site has become very left wing. tones

I've tried to defend Glenn Beck several times, but he keeps stabbing me in the back -- two examples being Ron Paul and Debra Medina.

someperson
03-14-2010, 11:32 PM
How about simply allowing these media personalities to defend themselves? Why should damage control be provided by any other individual? It's not as if they lack the platform necessary to explain their statements and actions. It astounds me to see such drama and attention given to these personalities. I'm not directing this statement toward anyone in particular; it's just a call for introspection.

If you've ever had a sense that you've been betrayed by a media personality, you may have an emotional attachment to them. That's but one symptom of many. Actors, in theatre, rely on emotional attachment between the audience and their character in order to evoke a response. It matters not what that response is... anger, laughter, sadness, happiness... as long as it's not silence. A silent audience is death, both for their play and their career.

I don't see a problem with temporary emotional attachment to actors in movies and such, as that's critical to the suspension of disbelief required to enjoy a story. However, I believe it's unwise to approach news media personalities in the same way. Neutral apathy is preferable; get the information that is presented, evaluate it, switch off. Please stop being a fan or the opposite (not sure what the word is... hater? I don't know lol); encourage individuals you know to do the same, whether they're emotionally attached to individuals like Mr. Beck or individuals like Mr. Olbermann. They aren't actors... at least, they're not supposed to be ;)

Taco John
03-14-2010, 11:45 PM
Like what was said before. There are groups that are new age SJ but according to the church misson it says the complete opposit, of you just posted. SJ can mean anything. What you posted is very vauge. What if 9/11 truthers want SOCIAL JUSTICE for the crimes of 9/11? Will you spin that into Marxism?

Then they're people who don't know what social justice means, and probably should keep their mouths shut and quit embarassing themselves.


There's no such thing as "social justice." There is only justice.

silus
03-15-2010, 12:46 AM
Most of the time I don't think I'm on a Ron Paul forum anymore...the site has become very left wing. tones
Its people like you that interpret the slightest hint of variation to indicate a complete shift. This sort of implies you don't necessarily see the facts, you just react to your strongest emotion. And I guess a few "left wing" posts raise your ire enough to convince you everything here is changing. I'm sorry, but you're an idiot. This is correctable.

fj45lvr
03-15-2010, 02:38 AM
whenever you see the word "progressive" just know that they really mean "socialist/statist"

FrankRep
03-15-2010, 03:03 AM
whenever you see the word "progressive" just know that they really mean "socialist/statist"

Progressive = Fabian Socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society)

j6p
03-15-2010, 06:21 AM
Taco ever read the webster dictionary?? Look up the term social justice and it's complete opposite of what the Glen Beck followers spew.

reardenstone
03-15-2010, 06:51 AM
Just wonderful how RPF does no research into the matter. Over at Daily paul Social justice from a church point of view is against government. http://www.dailypaul.com/node/128767

Where is the clarification there? All I see are user comments and no blog stating that church social justice is against using the government.

Anyone read the Wallis books or know his position?

tonesforjonesbones
03-15-2010, 07:10 AM
Yes FABIAN SOCIALISTS. G Edward Griffin does a video interview on Leninism and Fabianism..it's very good. tones

Warrior_of_Freedom
03-15-2010, 07:15 AM
Can we please stop talking about Glenn Beck? I didn't know who this joker was until I encountered RPF.

j6p
03-15-2010, 08:53 AM
I'm so glad to see that.

I was afraid this would continue to devolve along the lines of people talking past each other with one side simply repeating talking points and sound bites.

I don't have time at the moment for a reasoned response, my apologies for that. But I'm glad to see some have taken up the gauntlet of real discussion of differences of opinion.

In short, have some churches strayed from the original teachings? Most likely. Can this be remedied? Absolutely.

Is Beck or his suggestions the remedy? Positively NOT.

From a daily paul poster.

AuH20
03-15-2010, 09:06 AM
Progressive = Fabian Socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society)

It's frankly amazing how deficient so many are, in understanding what we are aligned against. This enemy is persistent, deceptive and worst of all, ruthless. They pervert such terms as 'justice' and 'equality' so they can be allowed to reshape the world in their desired image.

http://pondrings.org/?p=2663


The window was created to celebrate the Fabian Socialist Society, which was founded in 1884 in London as an offshoot of the The Fellowship of New Life. The idea was to bring major socialist thinkers together to try and figure out how to convert the world to a socialist society, primarily through peaceful political change, by taking over countries from within. Their primary work, originally, was in the area of publishing pamphlets promoting social justice, which is really just a play on the word justice, since social justice is actually the opposite of justice itself. The window itself was created in 1910, was stolen, and didn’t show up again until 2005.

Notice the F.S. emblem above the globe? If you look closely, it's a wolf covered in a sheep skin.

http://pondrings.org/media/media%20clips/FabianWindow_Large.jpg

MelissaWV
03-15-2010, 09:15 AM
What are you glad to see? Who are you addressing? This is why people quote one another...


I'm so glad to see that.

I was afraid this would continue to devolve along the lines of people talking past each other with one side simply repeating talking points and sound bites.

I don't have time at the moment for a reasoned response, my apologies for that. But I'm glad to see some have taken up the gauntlet of real discussion of differences of opinion.

In short, have some churches strayed from the original teachings? Most likely. Can this be remedied? Absolutely.

Is Beck or his suggestions the remedy? Positively NOT.

From a daily paul poster.

I haven't watched Beck all the way through. I watched clips of his talking to Dr. Paul, and something about a grown man swinging from one mood to another so rapidly, devolving into wanting to French kiss an elderly statesman...

I don't think most people on this forum like him much, they just feel he's better than the alternatives. That's not saying much at all.

pcosmar
03-15-2010, 09:19 AM
It's frankly amazing how deficient so many are, in understanding what we are aligned against. This enemy is persistent, deceptive and worst of all, ruthless. They pervert such terms as 'justice' and 'equality' so they can be allowed to reshape the world in their desired image.

http://pondrings.org/?p=2663



Notice the F.S. emblem above the globe? If you look closely, it's a wolf covered in a sheep skin.



The thing that some forget (or never understood) is that the CFR is the American "spin off" of this, and that the entire MSM is owned and operated with this philosophy.

It is thoroughly entrenched.

AuH20
03-15-2010, 09:22 AM
The thing that some forget (or never understood) is that the CFR is the American "spin off" of this, and that the entire MSM is owned and operated with this philosophy.

It is thoroughly entrenched.

Yup. The CFR is an offshoot of the RIAA, which is now known as Chatham House. And you're completely correct in your assessment that all major media conglomerates maintain a membership in the CFR.

silentshout
03-15-2010, 12:48 PM
Tones, you can be on the left but not progressive. I'm very left on social issues, but in no way progressive and am moderate to conservative fiscally. I didn't realize this was a right-wing only site...sorry to offend but I'm new here. I don't agree with Beck, progressives, or neocons, so who knows what site I should go to.

MelissaCato
03-15-2010, 01:42 PM
Calm down people, we all know Glen Beck leans left of the Constitution although he is a swing vote concerning " the year of or Lord" ... That is clear.

He confirmed this with his chalk board drawing of where his viewers should be in regards to where we are now. Where is John Adams when you need him ..

Glenn Beck talks a good game but isn't real like Ron Paul or the Judge. This is also confirmed beings Freedom Watch with the Judge isn't aired on Cable yet in this time of crisis. Someone still doesn't want America to be heard Nationally or World Wide. Or just doesn't like America. The real America that is.

This needs to change or the Media will pull another mockery of our Constitution 2010 and 2012 primaries an elections, and with our luck the people will swing to the beat. Another false prophet by design.

It's becoming all to clear really. I just hope the OathKeepers keep it real somehow ... that's my future thought at this point. That Stewart Rhodes’ did a great job with Oreilly, I think Oreilly did a good job being fair and balanced ... for a sec I thought Oreilly was gonna go off on him ... but I think Stewart did a good job at presenting the truth .. LOL That was the best FOX moment yet. I do like when Bret Baier closes his show saying "unafraid" ... LOL That makes my night everytime. If only the Judge with Freedom Watch came on next. Darn it.

I stopped watching Beck when he told his viewers where they should be on the chalk board graph ... that is not where this Republic stands in regards to our Constitution.

The extreme far right of America is limited government by the people for the people not no government. That was an insult to our Constitution.

We need to get Freedom Watch with the Judge on Cable TV to replace these pinheads for primetime.

That's all there is to it. It's almost too easy to take this country back in actuality.

JMO.

someperson
03-15-2010, 01:52 PM
Tones, you can be on the left but not progressive. I'm very left on social issues, but in no way progressive and am moderate to conservative fiscally. I didn't realize this was a right-wing only site...sorry to offend but I'm new here. I don't agree with Beck, progressives, or neocons, so who knows what site I should go to.
Welcome to the forum, silentshout! Please don't concern yourself with labels like left, right, progressive, conservative, libertarian, socialist, and all of the rest. These terms can never represent what an individual truly believes. They only lead to incorrect generalizations, while serving to divide often like-minded individuals into rival groups. Focus on your philosophy and ideas. Define yourself, not by a label, but by your specific ideas. For example, I'm an individual who believes in foreign and domestic non-interventionism, individualism, the NAP, and liberty.

If you find yourself in general agreement with the philosophy described in the following video, you're probably in the right place :)

YouTube - The Philosophy of Liberty (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I)

BlackTerrel
03-15-2010, 02:55 PM
So did Beck lose more viewers?

j6p
03-15-2010, 03:21 PM
Beck just said he trusts the police, millitary, DNR more. Sooo LOL. Cant belive people listen to this turncoat.

j6p
03-15-2010, 03:21 PM
Dont taze me Bro. Pro war monger

MelissaWV
03-15-2010, 03:35 PM
Beck just said he trusts the police, millitary, DNR more. Sooo LOL. Cant belive people listen to this turncoat.

Not to pick on you, but in order to know that, aren't *you* listening to him? :)

tonesforjonesbones
03-15-2010, 03:38 PM
Ron Paul is not a lefty. I thought this was a forum dedicated to the philosophy of RON PAUL. tones

j6p
03-15-2010, 03:46 PM
Turncoat

silentshout
03-15-2010, 03:48 PM
Welcome to the forum, silentshout! Please don't concern yourself with labels like left, right, progressive, conservative, libertarian, socialist, and all of the rest. These terms can never represent what an individual truly believes. They only lead to incorrect generalizations, while serving to divide often like-minded individuals into rival groups. Focus on your philosophy and ideas. Define yourself, not by a label, but by your specific ideas. For example, I'm an individual who believes in foreign and domestic non-interventionism, individualism, the NAP, and liberty.

If you find yourself in general agreement with the philosophy described in the following video, you're probably in the right place :)

YouTube - The Philosophy of Liberty (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I)


Thanks, that was a great video and yeah, it pretty much sums up what I believe.

MelissaWV
03-15-2010, 03:50 PM
gotta keep the enimes close

lol... I love the ads on this site sometimes. You say enemies, and right below it is the Ann Coulter ad :D

I have been known to listen to Rush Limbaugh from time to time (when it was the only AM station option during lunch, and before the mp3 player became my best friend), and I end up listening to NPR a lot for similar reasons. Sometimes the best entertainment is to watch the other side and realize "they take this stuff seriously..."

someperson
03-15-2010, 04:14 PM
Thanks, that was a great video and yeah, it pretty much sums up what I believe.
Thanks for reading my post! That's great to hear :) There will inevitably be some individuals on this forum, and elsewhere, who will attempt to pigeonhole you as being "left" or "right" or "liberal" or "conservative" or who knows what. These individuals are often well-intentioned, but, in debate, they just can't let the labels go. Their whole worldview revolves around groups and labels, instead of ideas. Never let another individual classify your ideas.

lynnf
03-15-2010, 04:16 PM
So did Beck lose more viewers?


3/15 Glenn Beck – 2,456,000 viewers (584,000) (1,232,000)
3/12 Glenn Beck – 2,550,000 viewers (740,000) (1,364,000)
3/10 Glenn Beck – 3,024,000 viewers (780,000) (1,510,000)


http://tvbythenumbers.com/?s=beck&=Search

--------------------------------

looks like is going down, down, down, to me. but the way some others on this forum see things, I'm not sure they will agree.

lynn

Nate
03-15-2010, 06:05 PM
can we please stop talking about glenn beck? I didn't know who this joker was until i encountered rpf.

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

AuH20
03-15-2010, 09:50 PM
Watch this. Wallis challenged Beck to a debate and Beck is going to turn the tables on his Christian-Marxist friend:

http://www.therightscoop.com/glenn-beck-to-jim-wallace-the-hammer-is-coming/

FrankRep
03-15-2010, 09:57 PM
Watch this. Wallis challenged Beck to a debate and Beck is going to turn the tables on his Christian-Marxist friend:

http://www.therightscoop.com/glenn-beck-to-jim-wallace-the-hammer-is-coming/

Jim Wallis does appear to be a big Government supporter and not a friend of liberty.

tonesforjonesbones
03-15-2010, 10:05 PM
That guy is a socialist...he's preaching social justice. Tones

AuH20
03-15-2010, 10:08 PM
Jim Wallis does appear to be a big Government supporter and not a friend of liberty.

Jim Wallis basically considers Barack Obama the third member of the Holy Trinity. :D And it appears that he's run full-steam into Mr. Beck's trap. This Sojourners group is on par with the Christian 'liberation theology' movement which took root in Latin America.

BlackTerrel
03-15-2010, 10:56 PM
3/15 Glenn Beck – 2,456,000 viewers (584,000) (1,232,000)
3/12 Glenn Beck – 2,550,000 viewers (740,000) (1,364,000)
3/10 Glenn Beck – 3,024,000 viewers (780,000) (1,510,000)


http://tvbythenumbers.com/?s=beck&=Search

--------------------------------

looks like is going down, down, down, to me. but the way some others on this forum see things, I'm not sure they will agree.

lynn

Very interesting. Thanks for posting. Will be interesting to see if this continues or is just a standard fluctuation.

lynnf
03-16-2010, 04:33 PM
Very interesting. Thanks for posting. Will be interesting to see if this continues or is just a standard fluctuation.


(edit: oops -- my mistake - they're there, it's just the 12ths numbers are posted on the 15th)

very interesting, indeed. I checked it today, and it seems that the numbers for
3/15 have now disappeared!

lynn

tremendoustie
03-16-2010, 04:37 PM
and, I have to say, couldn't happen to a more deserving guy.
---------------------
lynn


-----------------------------------------






FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Thursday, March 11, 2010



CONTACT: Sheldon Good at sgood@sojo.net / 202.745.4625 or

Burns Strider at bstrider@sojo.net / 202.215.2490



FOR MEDIA: After Glenn Beck?s attack on ?social justice,? Rev. Jim Wallis calls Christians to stop watching his show.JIM WALLIS URGES CHRISTIANS TO STOP WATCHING GLENN BECK



WASHINGTON, DC ? Rev. Jim Wallis ? a progressive evangelical leader, author of Rediscovering Values and president of Sojourners (the largest network of progressive Christians in the United States) ? is urging Christians to stop watching Glenn Beck.



Last week, Beck professed that ?Communists are on the left, and the Nazis are on the right? but that ?both subscribe to one philosophy ? social justice.? Beck also urged his listeners to report any churches that subscribe to ?social justice? or ?economic justice? to church authorities.



Wallis is inviting Christians to turn themselves in to Beck as believers in social justice. Wallis said Beck has attacked ?the very heart of our Christian faith, and Christians should no longer watch his show.?



Read Wallis? statement here: http://blog.sojo.net/2010/03/10/glenn-beck-im-a-social-justice-christian/ (http://blog.sojo.net/2010/03/10/glenn-beck-im-a-social-justice-christian/)
# # #

Jim Wallis is the founder and president of Sojourners, the largest network of progressive Christians in the United States focused on the biblical call to social justice. Wallis is also author of the New York Times bestsellers God's Politics: Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It and The Great Awakening: Seven Ways To Change The World, Reviving Faith & Politics. His latest book is Rediscovering Values: On Wall Street, Main Street, and Your Street.

Sojourners' mission is to articulate the biblical call to social justice, inspiring hope and building a movement to transform individuals, communities, the church, and the world. Visit www.sojo.net (http://www.sojo.net) <http://www.sojo.net/>; (http://www.sojo.net/%3E;) , and www.GodsPolitics.com (http://www.GodsPolitics.com) <http://www.godspolitics.com/>; (http://www.godspolitics.com/%3E;) .


I believe in social justice. One of the most important aspects of social justice is stopping people from stealing from each other.

John Taylor
03-16-2010, 05:13 PM
I believe in social justice. One of the most important aspects of social justice is stopping people from stealing from each other.

Social Justice is redistributive in its very definition. Either you're waging a Don Quixote-esque fight to reclaim a definition that was never pro-laissez faire, or. . .

yeah.

John Taylor
03-16-2010, 05:14 PM
Jim Wallis does appear to be a big Government supporter and not a friend of liberty.

Haha, you think????? He's advocating SOCIAL JUSTICE!!!! Otherwise known as.... Socialism.

tremendoustie
03-16-2010, 05:15 PM
Social Justice is redistributive in its very definition. Either you're waging a Don Quixote-esque fight to reclaim a definition that was never pro-laissez faire, or. . .

yeah.

I like using words properly, that are being abused. It's very Don Quixote-esque, but at least it tends to get my progressive friends to do a double take :). I think it makes it a little harder for people to lie to themselves.

John Taylor
03-16-2010, 05:15 PM
Taco ever read the webster dictionary?? Look up the term social justice and it's complete opposite of what the Glen Beck followers spew.

Exactly, Social Justice is Socialism. The government redistribution of wealth and economic "access".

John Taylor
03-16-2010, 05:17 PM
I like using words properly, that are being abused. It's very Don Quixote-esque, but at least it tends to get my progressive friends to do a double take :). I think it makes it a little harder for people to lie to themselves.

Have you happened to pick up Hayek's Law Legislation and Liberty, Volume 2, The Mirage of Social Justice?

Hayek absolutely shreds "social justice".

RedStripe
03-16-2010, 05:19 PM
Charity organizations are social justice organizations. Just because some people advocate government intervention on behalf of social justice causes, that doesn't mean that all social justice causes are ones which involve socialism.

The civil rights movement was a social justice movement that did not involve socialism.

John Taylor
03-16-2010, 05:23 PM
Charity organizations are social justice organizations. Just because some people advocate government intervention on behalf of social justice causes, that doesn't mean that all social justice causes are ones which involve socialism.

The civil rights movement was a social justice movement that did not involve socialism.

Absolute nonsense, private charitable organizations are not "social justice" organizations. Social justice, by definition, demands government action. Read Frederic Hayek's Law Legislation and Liberty, Vol. 2: The Mirage of Social Justice.

The civil rights movement was not merely about voluntary actions buddy, it involved the eviceration of the freedom of association, of contract, of speech, of property, you name it. Government intervening in the private contractual relationships of individuals.

speciallyblend
03-16-2010, 05:35 PM
bottom line for beck threads, beck is a liar and not worth a dam for the liberty movement!! beck is a useless tool!! until people figure this out. you are just being fooled by neo-cons!!

RedStripe
03-16-2010, 05:36 PM
Absolute nonsense, private charitable organizations are not "social justice" organizations. Social justice, by definition, demands government action. Read Frederic Hayek's Law Legislation and Liberty, Vol. 2: The Mirage of Social Justice.

Actually, social justice is "the application of the concept of justice on a social scale" because of, you know, basic English. Not all private charities necessarily focus on a society-wide scale, but many do. As do many social justice advocates who would like to see government policy which would result in more social justice (rather than the unequal, privileged, monopolized system in favor of the rich that we currently have). Neutral government policy is a fucking myth, and I'd rather air on the side of caution - policy that benefits the poor laborers, rather than the capital owners.

I mean, if you don't think that even the ideal of the fantasy "limited government" you dream of are based upon notions of social justice you're being delusional. There's a reason we have tort law: justice. There's a reason we supposedly "had" the freedoms of contract, association, and others, which you go on to complain about losing: they promote justice on a society-wide scale. At least, that's the primary argument for them (unless you're a "rights rain down from heaven like mana and we just accept them and they are just totally arbitrary" kind of guy).



The civil rights movement was not merely about voluntary actions buddy, it involved the eviceration of the freedom of association, of contract, of speech, of property, you name it. Government intervening in the private contractual relationships of individuals.

Yea, BUDDY, the civil rights movement had a lot of effects you are free to bitch about elsewhere, but the point is the focus of the civil rights movement was to end an unjust social system where one race was basically dominating another. Duh. Social justice. 1+1=2.

RedStripe
03-16-2010, 05:37 PM
bottom line for beck threads, beck is a liar and not worth a dam for the liberty movement!! beck is a useless tool!! until people figure this out. you are just being fooled by neo-cons!!

http://i40.tinypic.com/vwzexl.jpg

speciallyblend
03-16-2010, 05:44 PM
http://i40.tinypic.com/vwzexl.jpg

haha i like the squirrel/chipmunk??? better;)

John Taylor
03-16-2010, 05:55 PM
Actually, social justice is "the application of the concept of justice on a social scale" because of, you know, basic English. Not all private charities necessarily focus on a society-wide scale, but many do. As do many social justice advocates who would like to see government policy which would result in more social justice (rather than the unequal, privileged, monopolized system in favor of the rich that we currently have). Neutral government policy is a fucking myth, and I'd rather air on the side of caution - policy that benefits the poor laborers, rather than the capital owners.

I mean, if you don't think that even the ideal of the fantasy "limited government" you dream of are based upon notions of social justice you're being delusional. There's a reason we have tort law: justice. There's a reason we supposedly "had" the freedoms of contract, association, and others, which you go on to complain about losing: they promote justice on a society-wide scale. At least, that's the primary argument for them (unless you're a "rights rain down from heaven like mana and we just accept them and they are just totally arbitrary" kind of guy).



Yea, BUDDY, the civil rights movement had a lot of effects you are free to bitch about elsewhere, but the point is the focus of the civil rights movement was to end an unjust social system where one race was basically dominating another. Duh. Social justice. 1+1=2.


That's not what "social justice" is. I'll let you go head to head with Frederic Hayek on this on.

"It might indeed be said that the main difference between the order of society at which classical liberalism aimed and the sort of society into which it is now being transformed is that the former was governed by principles of individual conduct while the new society is to satisfy the demands for 'social justice'---or, in other words, that the formed demanded just action by the individuals while the later more and more places the duty of justice on authorities with power to command people what to do." Page 65-66 of Law Legislation and Liberty, Vol. 2. The Mirage of Social Justice, 1976 edition.


" The systematic pursuit of the ignis fatuus of "social justice" is based throughout on the atrocious idea that political power ought to determine the material position of the different individuals and groups -- an idea defended by the false assertion that must always be and social justice merely wishes to transfer this power from the privileged to the most numerous class. It was the great merit of the market order as it has spread during the last two centuries that it deprived everyone of such power which can only be used in arbitrary fashion." Law Legislation and Liberty, Vol. 2: The Mirage of Social Justice, page 99, 1976 edition.

Rather err on the side the "poor laborer" as opposed to the "rich capitalist"? Everyone is entitled to their property, regardless of how much they possess. In fact, it is people with saved capital which allow for economic development and the raising of the standard of living an any given society...

About the Civil Rights Movement. No one is suggesting that government laws which forbid the voluntary association of individuals should not be removed. What I am speaking to is the FORCED association of individuals, through, you pick it, 3 hour busing of elementary school students, the use of government police to force a shopkeeper to serve people he doesn't want to serve, the list is long...

Social Justice is socialism, but from what it sounds like, you're a fan of that as well.

MelissaCato
03-16-2010, 07:35 PM
Charity organizations are social justice organizations. Just because some people advocate government intervention on behalf of social justice causes, that doesn't mean that all social justice causes are ones which involve socialism.

The civil rights movement was a social justice movement that did not involve socialism.

Ya I agree.

I kinda like going to the social clubs that benefit the volenteer fire departments. :D

j6p
03-16-2010, 07:38 PM
Johny boy at it again.

j6p
03-16-2010, 07:42 PM
Johny boy the webster dictionary doesnt mention Social justice as socialism, look it up.