French bread spiked with LSD in CIA experiment [Archive]

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Anti Federalist

03-12-2010, 12:30 AM

Oh, but government is too inept to carry out such things, they'd never do such a thing, you're a conspiracy loon.:rolleyes:

French bread spiked with LSD in CIA experiment

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7415082/French-bread-spiked-with-LSD-in-CIA-experiment.html

A 50-year mystery over the 'cursed bread' of Pont-Saint-Esprit, which left residents suffering hallucinations, has been solved after a writer discovered the US had spiked the bread with LSD as part of an experiment.

In 1951, a quiet, picturesque village in southern France was suddenly and mysteriously struck down with mass insanity and hallucinations. At least five people died, dozens were interned in asylums and hundreds afflicted.

For decades it was assumed that the local bread had been unwittingly poisoned with a psychedelic mould. Now, however, an American investigative journalist has uncovered evidence suggesting the CIA peppered local food with the hallucinogenic drug LSD as part of a mind control experiment at the height of the Cold War.

The mystery of Le Pain Maudit (Cursed Bread) still haunts the inhabitants of Pont-Saint-Esprit, in the Gard, southeast France.

On August 16, 1951, the inhabitants were suddenly racked with frightful hallucinations of terrifying beasts and fire.

One man tried to drown himself, screaming that his belly was being eaten by snakes. An 11-year-old tried to strangle his grandmother. Another man shouted: "I am a plane", before jumping out of a second-floor window, breaking his legs. He then got up and carried on for 50 yards. Another saw his heart escaping through his feet and begged a doctor to put it back. Many were taken to the local asylum in strait jackets.

Time magazine wrote at the time: "Among the stricken, delirium rose: patients thrashed wildly on their beds, screaming that red flowers were blossoming from their bodies, that their heads had turned to molten lead."

Eventually, it was determined that the best-known local baker had unwittingly contaminated his flour with ergot, a hallucinogenic mould that infects rye grain. Another theory was the bread had been poisoned with organic mercury.

However, H P Albarelli Jr., an investigative journalist, claims the outbreak resulted from a covert experiment directed by the CIA and the US Army's top-secret Special Operations Division (SOD) at Fort Detrick, Maryland.

The scientists who produced both alternative explanations, he writes, worked for the Swiss-based Sandoz Pharmaceutical Company, which was then secretly supplying both the Army and CIA with LSD.

Mr Albarelli came across CIA documents while investigating the suspicious suicide of Frank Olson, a biochemist working for the SOD who fell from a 13th floor window two years after the Cursed Bread incident. One note transcribes a conversation between a CIA agent and a Sandoz official who mentions the "secret of Pont-Saint-Esprit" and explains that it was not "at all" caused by mould but by diethylamide, the D in LSD.

While compiling his book, A Terrible Mistake: The Murder of Frank Olson and the CIA's Secret Cold War Experiments, Mr Albarelli spoke to former colleagues of Mr Olson, two of whom told him that the Pont-Saint-Esprit incident was part of a mind control experiment run by the CIA and US army.

After the Korean War the Americans launched a vast research programme into the mental manipulation of prisoners and enemy troops.

Scientists at Fort Detrick told him that agents had sprayed LSD into the air and also contaminated "local foot products".

Mr Albarelli said the real "smoking gun" was a White House document sent to members of the Rockefeller Commission formed in 1975 to investigate CIA abuses. It contained the names of a number of French nationals who had been secretly employed by the CIA and made direct reference to the "Pont St. Esprit incident." In its quest to research LSD as an offensive weapon, Mr Albarelli claims, the US army also drugged over 5,700 unwitting American servicemen between 1953 and 1965.

None of his sources would indicate whether the French secret services were aware of the alleged operation. According to US news reports, French intelligence chiefs have demanded the CIA explain itself following the book's revelations. French intelligence officially denies this.

Locals in Pont-Saint-Esprit still want to know why they were hit by such apocalyptic scenes. "At the time people brought up the theory of an experiment aimed at controlling a popular revolt," said Charles Granjoh, 71.

"I almost kicked the bucket," he told the weekly French magazine Les Inrockuptibles. "I'd like to know why."

dannno

03-12-2010, 12:52 AM

Baptist

03-12-2010, 01:10 AM

:rolleyes:

There sure are a lot of exaggerations up there.. but things can go crazy if you DON'T KNOW THAT YOU TOOK LSD I would have to admit...

Other than that, LSD is a hell of a lot of fun if it is of high quality and you know what you're getting into, don't take too strong a dose, etc..

But you can't overdose on LSD, so I'm curious how some of these people died :confused:

Im guessing that the deaths were not from overdose, but from doing stuff like jumping out of second story windows, wrecking cars, and who knows what else.

People who knowingly drop can have a bad trip, so I can understand why these people did all this crazy stuff.

Was the CIA around when Americans were killing witches?

dannno

03-12-2010, 01:33 AM

Im guessing that the deaths were not from overdose, but from doing stuff like jumping out of second story windows, wrecking cars, and who knows what else.

People who knowingly drop can have a bad trip, so I can understand why these people did all this crazy stuff.

Was the CIA around when Americans were killing witches?

The most common reason for really bad trips on LSD are impure formulas or having too much... or in this case not knowing that you ingested LSD and suddenly tripping (and possibly one or both of the first reasons listed). That's likely what was happening back in Salem, MA as well. But bad acid can do some nasty things, which is why I am only willing to get it from individuals i highly trust who have already sampled themselves.

Some people do normal amounts and have 'bad' or 'nightmarish' or deeply introspective trips that aren't dangerous, but they describe them as 'bad trips', so you have to separate the 'bad trips' from the 'really bad trips' because a 'bad trip' is sometimes difficult but may help the person overcome something challenging in their lives... so it may ultimately be therapeutic or positive for them although it might be hard for them to comprehend or explain that.

I haven't done LSD very many times, but when I have it has always been top notch and I've always had GREAT trips, never a bad time on LSD. I've had some up and down experiences with shrooms, but even all of those experiences were ultimately very, very positive, and personally i prefer shrooms.

Mach

03-12-2010, 02:02 AM

dannno

03-12-2010, 02:04 AM

If you haven't seen it, rent it this weekend, the Trailer below will seem "out there" but everything will fit together a little better when you watch the whole thing, yes, there is a storyline.

Drugs
http://www.uoregon.edu/~munno/OregonCourses/REL353W05/BZStory.htm

YouTube - Official Jacob's Ladder Movie Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0kW6xuxtPU)

Not sure if you're into Thom Yorke from Radiohead, but this rarity has a really good line from that movie in the middle of the song..

EDIT: Full version of the song (quote appears at 2:15)

YouTube - Radiohead - Rabbit In Your Headlights (With Unkle) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqxajDQCjuQ)

If you're frightened of dying, and you hold on.. you'll see devils tearing your life away.. if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth...

My favorite lyric:

She laughs when she's crying
She cries when she's laughing

Pauls' Revere

03-12-2010, 02:21 AM

Mach

03-12-2010, 02:26 AM

Not sure if you're into Thom Yorke from Radiohead, but this rarity has a really good line from that movie in the middle of the song..

EDIT: Full version of the song (quote appears at 2:15)

YouTube - Radiohead - Rabbit In Your Headlights (With Unkle) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqxajDQCjuQ)

If you're frightened of dying, and you hold on.. you'll see devils tearing your life away.. if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth...

My favorite lyric:
She laughs when she's crying
She cries when she's laughing

"If you're afraid of dying, and you're holdin' on, you'll see devils tearin' your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freein' you from the world. It all depends on how you look at it."

-Louie paraphrasing Meister Eckhart at the end of Jacob's Ladder.

That was some good stuff.... it's funny, I'm not into the whole religion thing but those are some good words... not necessarily religious, just downright spiritual.

Are you dying?

dannno

03-12-2010, 02:37 AM

Are you dying?

Isn't everybody :confused:

pcosmar

03-12-2010, 10:52 AM

I can see someone that is already mentally unbalanced having a bad reaction. And for those that have no idea what is happening to be frightened or overwhelmed would be expected.

I doubt that the full extent of the MKULTRA program will be known. But then I also doubt that it ever really ended.
I suspect that they have just been more careful.
:(

MelissaWV

03-12-2010, 11:05 AM

Well, this was *bread*, which would be an incredibly dangerous thing to spike. You know you're taking LSD, dannno, so you can control your dose. Some people (especially in the 1950s, before all the "carbs are bad" mantras began) would eat quite a lot of bread before they really started going crazy, and some folks might continue to eat it, since they wouldn't necessarily make the connection right away. Imagine, for instance, if you're having a fairly nice trip... but you decide you're hungry and continue to eat, and eat, and eat. I can see how this got out of hand.

tmosley

03-12-2010, 11:25 AM

This does not seem to have been LSD, but a derivative. It was probably a formulation intended to deliver a bad trip.

pcosmar

03-12-2010, 11:28 AM

It was the LSD Experiments that broke the story but that was only one sub project of MKULTRA.
Often it is the only part that anyone knows or hears about.
When they were in danger of being exposed much evidence was destroyed, but not all.
For those ( like Peter Schiff) that like to say our government is not evil. Do some research.

YouTube - President Clinton Apologizes for MK Ultra (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u22mphQsn5s)

YouTube - MKULTRA Survivors Testimony (#9) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc9_cDdLsms)

There is much more available.
Documented. Factual. Proof of Evil.

TinCanToNA

03-12-2010, 11:33 AM

Oh, but government is too inept to carry out such things, they'd never do such a thing, you're a conspiracy loon.:rolleyes:

Too inept to place narcotics in bread? No. Hell, you could probably do that right now and conduct your own 'experiment'. Too inept to keep narcotics out of prison? Perhaps...
Too inept for the supposedly most elaborate critically-timed event in the history of the world using the most exotic substance available, "nanothermite" (with or without additional standard explosives depending on your flavor of nutjob theory, of which there was no chemical trace)? Yeah, most likely.

Yeah, the 1950's and 1960's weren't a good time. Some in gov't got some crazy ideas about right and wrong. Some still have those and similar ideas. But if you're going to call someone out for doing something evil, you'll probably need solid evidence. Otherwise, you're just spinning your own wheels and the wheels of others who get excited about thinking they know more than the rest about the big bad gubment.

gls

03-12-2010, 11:37 AM

LSD is the greatest drug ever concocted. IMO everyone should (knowingly) take it at least once.

Anti Federalist

03-12-2010, 11:37 AM

pcosmar

03-12-2010, 11:41 AM

jmdrake

03-12-2010, 11:43 AM

Too inept to place narcotics in bread? No. Hell, you could probably do that right now and conduct your own 'experiment'. Too inept to keep narcotics out of prison? Perhaps...
Too inept for the supposedly most elaborate critically-timed event in the history of the world using the most exotic substance available, "nanothermite" (with or without additional standard explosives depending on your flavor of nutjob theory, of which there was no chemical trace)? Yeah, most likely.

Yeah, the 1950's and 1960's weren't a good time. Some in gov't got some crazy ideas about right and wrong. Some still have those and similar ideas. But if you're going to call someone out for doing something evil, you'll probably need solid evidence. Otherwise, you're just spinning your own wheels and the wheels of others who get excited about thinking they know more than the rest about the big bad gubment.

Too inept to run interference to allow the hijackers in the country when lower level officials said no? Not hardly.

Too inept to cover up the fact in our media that the head of Pakistani intelligence funded the attacks even though this was reported in foreign media? Not hardly.

Too inept to run drills on the day of the attacks which simulated parts of the attacks (hijacked aircraft as flying bombs) while putting "ghost" images in the pilots radar and sending them to the other side of the country? Too inept to direct the hijackers to pick the date of the drills? Not hardly.

Too inept to throw the American people off the trail with an "Axis of Evil" speech that targeted 3 countries that had nothing to do with 9/11, thus blunting the impact of the Northern Alliance press release that Shah Massoud had been assassinated by an "Axis of evil" that included the Taliban, Al Qaeda and Pakistan? Not hardly.

Anti Federalist

03-12-2010, 11:51 AM

Yeah, the 1950's and 1960's weren't a good time. Some in gov't got some crazy ideas about right and wrong.

And that stopped in 1969?

The dead in Arkansas surrounding the CIA drug and gun running operation that was run from the White House, that was a figment of my imagination?

School of the Americas, training "terrorists" by the thousands was what, again?

The real detonators and bomb used in the 1993 WTC that was given to the informant by the FBI, is a hallucination?

The dead of Waco, deserved it I suppose?

This government set out on a course of action that has left a million plus Iraqis dead.

This government is no more, it has been hijacked and corrupted, it no longer represents the people and is no longer abiding by the Constitution in any meaningful way.

It is murderous and illegitimate and it will kill as many people as it thinks it needs to, in order to further it's goals.

That includes "false flag" attacks, which it has already done and planned for in the past. This is a historical point of fact.

To think otherwise about the crisis we all face is naive, dangerous and intellectually lazy.

Anti Federalist

03-12-2010, 11:56 AM

You assume that they want to keep narcotics out of prison?
:rolleyes:

You assume that they want to keep prisoners safe?
They use tensions and factions within the prisons fighting each other. They exploit these.
It is the only way they maintain control.

much like the 2 party system.

+1

TinCanToNA

03-12-2010, 11:57 AM

Too inept to run drills on the day of the attacks which simulated parts of the attacks (hijacked aircraft as flying bombs) while putting "ghost" images in the pilots radar and sending them to the other side of the country? Too inept to direct the hijackers to pick the date of the drills? Not hardly.
That begs the question of just how you think "ghost" images work in training scenarios. I suspect that if you had relevant knowledge of the process, you would find your interest in such a subject as related to 9/11 to be unfounded.

Furthermore, the diversion occurred due to ineptness. In fact, of all the talk about cover-ups and conspiracy, that is the most legitimate argument; that the inept decisions of those in positions of command and control were swept under the rug.

Too inept to throw the American people off the trail with an "Axis of Evil" speech that targeted 3 countries that had nothing to do with 9/11, thus blunting the impact of the Northern Alliance press release that Shah Massoud had been assassinated by an "Axis of evil" that included the Taliban, Al Qaeda and Pakistan? Not hardly.That Bush used 9/11 is not in question, and is irrelevant to the events of 9/11 themselves. "Never let a good crisis go to waste," is not just the policy of the current administration--it's one of seemingly all administrations. If you believe that those who committed any act are necessarily the ones who benefited from it most, then you are falling into a logical fallacy. The possibility remains open, but such a train of thought is not proof or evidence.

pcosmar, I said "perhaps" for a reason. Your theories on prison operation are not necessarily the right ones. The existence of prison riots, sometimes caused by large-scale fighting inside the prison and certainly harmful to the establishment (due to PR and outright personnel issues), seems to negate part of your theory. Also, the fact that if narcotics are located they are confiscated seems to negate part of your theory. But I haven't studied psychology as much as I've studied engineering.

pcosmar

03-12-2010, 12:06 PM

pcosmar, I said "perhaps" for a reason. Your theories on prison operation are not necessarily the right ones. The existence of prison riots, sometimes caused by large-scale fighting inside the prison and certainly harmful to the establishment (due to PR and outright personnel issues), seems to negate part of your theory. Also, the fact that if narcotics are located they are confiscated seems to negate part of your theory.

It is not my theory. I lived there and observed it. I have also known Employed Personnel that have confirmed this. Real life experience. :(

Secondly, How did this turn into another 9/11 debate? Ah yes,, the documented "Forum Sliding Technique" also well documented.
Deflect the story that you can not possibly refute and make it seem to be more "crazy talk"

Nice try.

pcosmar

03-12-2010, 12:23 PM

Inept?

Really. It is known and documented that the CIA set up and ran several Brothels. some specializing in child prostitution. They used victims of their control experiments for this purpose.

The used these for both intel and blackmail purposes.
I wonder who still is being blackmailed by such information.

I also wonder what the D.C. Madam knew. Too bad she is silenced.
:(

jmdrake

03-12-2010, 01:24 PM

That begs the question of just how you think "ghost" images work in training scenarios. I suspect that if you had relevant knowledge of the process, you would find your interest in such a subject as related to 9/11 to be unfounded.

Fine. Enlighten us. :rolleyes: I suspect you're blowing smoke out your rear.

Furthermore, the diversion occurred due to ineptness. In fact, of all the talk about cover-ups and conspiracy, that is the most legitimate argument; that the inept decisions of those in positions of command and control were swept under the rug.

Having terror drills that predicted the very method that was later used for the attacks was "inept"? Sounds pretty smart to me. And more likely than "ineptness" is the possibility that someone leaked the date of the training drills to whoever carried out the attacks. There have been moles in our government since before the founding of the republic. (Benedict Arnold for example). It's silly to assume that the only possibility is "ineptness".

That Bush used 9/11 is not in question, and is irrelevant to the events of 9/11 themselves. "Never let a good crisis go to waste," is not just the policy of the current administration--it's one of seemingly all administrations. If you believe that those who committed any act are necessarily the ones who benefited from it most, then you are falling into a logical fallacy. The possibility remains open, but such a train of thought is not proof or evidence.

The logical fallacy is yours. It's the straw man fallacy. You are falsely insinuating that I've claimed that Bush must have been behind it because he benefited when I've said no such thing. At the same time Osama Bin Laden benefited, yet Ron Paul said there is no evidence to prove Osama conspired and planned the attacks. So your "logical fallacy" goes both ways.

Again, this government covered up the fact that Pakistan funded the attacks. That goes beyond "ineptness". Nobody would have been mad at Bush if he had come out and (honestly) fingered Pakistan. But had he done that, the links between the Pakistani ISI and our own CIA would have come bubbling to the surface.

Anti Federalist

03-12-2010, 01:29 PM

Again, this government covered up the fact that Pakistan funded the attacks. That goes beyond "ineptness". Nobody would have been mad at Bush if he had come out and (honestly) fingered Pakistan. But had he done that, the links between the Pakistani ISI and our own CIA would have come bubbling to the surface.

+1

TinCanToNA

03-12-2010, 01:32 PM

At the same time Osama Bin Laden benefited, yet Ron Paul said there is no evidence to prove Osama conspired and planned the attacks. So your "logical fallacy" goes both ways.
Perhaps it goes both ways, then again I don't recall stating that OBL (UBL) planned the attacks. That is somewhat similar to how you never explicitly stated that Bush planned them.

Round and round the circle goes.

pcosmar--Fair enough, you have more immediate knowledge of the prison system than I do. The relevance of it seems to be an open question though. Secondly, the reason why this became another 9/11 thread is because of the first sentence in Anti Federalist's original post, which is an immediate inference to Schiff's response to a 9/11 Truth question.

Anti Federalist

03-12-2010, 01:35 PM

Secondly, the reason why this became another 9/11 thread is because of the first sentence in Anti Federalist's original post, which is an immediate inference to Schiff's response to a 9/11 Truth question.

Yes, I made that comment to stir the pot, I won't deny that.

But it wasn't directly related to the Schiff dust up, it was more of a general comment directed at people who dismiss the whole idea of government cover ups and murderous conspiracies carried out by government as ridiculous "kooky talk".

Clearly, the historical record indicates just the opposite, that this happens with alarming regularity, and this story is yet another piece of evidence proving that.

pcosmar

03-12-2010, 01:37 PM

Though not comprehensive,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA

It is a good starting point. Follow the bread crumbs. Dig a little.

This is not ineptitude, this is pure systematic deliberate EVIL.
Those involved have continued in government "service". There is NO proof that any of these projects ended.

Any who spoke out were relegated to "conspiracy theories" and dismissed.
Still are.
Does that seem familiar. :mad:

TinCanToNA

03-12-2010, 01:38 PM

Yes, I made that comment to stir the pot, I won't deny that.

But it wasn't directly related to the Schiff dust up, it was more of a general comment directed at people who dismiss the whole idea of government cover ups and murderous conspiracies carried out by government as ridiculous "kooky talk".Ah, fair enough then. "Bad things" do happen by government actors, and I am pretty sure I would never deny that. This article about LSD bread kind of proves that.

Bruno

03-12-2010, 01:40 PM

Ventura should do a show about MKULTRA, the CIA, and their LSD experiments on unwitting soldiers, civilians, and as mentioned here, citizens of foreign countries. Or has he already?

jp5065

03-12-2010, 01:48 PM

Story was bogus.... don't believe everything on the internet just because if jives with what you want to believe.

http://www.globaldashboard.org/2010/03/12/telegraph-france-acid-cia/

Anti Federalist

03-12-2010, 01:51 PM

Ah, fair enough then. "Bad things" do happen by government actors, and I am pretty sure I would never deny that. This article about LSD bread kind of proves that.

Outstanding, then we have reached a consensus there.

Now, I can't speak for everybody that claims to be a 9/11 "truther", but here's my angle, just FYI:

It has become very clear to me that the "official" story reeks, so much so that none of it, to me, can be believed.

The ramifications of what happened after the fact are too severe to wait 50 years for the truth to come out, like this story of CIA drug spiked bread.

The truth needs to come before post 9/11 life in America becomes solidified and freedoms lost forever.

Thus, I think, in my own opinion, no issue is more important, and why I won't drop it or let it be.

pcosmar

03-12-2010, 01:55 PM

Story was bogus.... don't believe everything on the internet just because if jives with what you want to believe.

http://www.globaldashboard.org/2010/03/12/telegraph-france-acid-cia/

MKULTRA is bogus? Might explain that to the Church commission.
Who is the guy writing this story. Does he have an axe to grind? Is he a paid "debunk-er"?
Honest questions.
He does nothing to disprove any of the story, but simply attacks the author.

Hmm

Post history confirms, another Schiff fan-boy.
Seems that there are several pushing his position on this. "The Government is not evil, really". :(

Anti Federalist

03-12-2010, 01:56 PM

dannno

03-12-2010, 02:00 PM

mczerone

03-12-2010, 02:03 PM

Outstanding, then we have reached a consensus there.

Now, I can't speak for everybody that claims to be a 9/11 "truther", but here's my angle, just FYI:

It has become very clear to me that the "official" story reeks, so much so that none of it, to me, can be believed.

The ramifications of what happened after the fact are too severe to wait 50 years for the truth to come out, like this story of CIA drug spiked bread.

The truth needs to come before post 9/11 life in America becomes solidified and freedoms lost forever.

Thus, I think, in my own opinion, no issue is more important, and why I won't drop it or let it be.

I don't buy the 9/11 commission report, but what is the point of making "spreading this truth" your "most important issue"?

Isn't your most important issue freedom? Isn't it better to focus on preserving freedom from draconian legislation, whatever pretense it is passed under, than questioning the pretenses?

Was the Warren Commission right about JFK? What about the official story of the Great Depression? What about the story that the Constitution is the great protector of liberty, even though the US existed for nearly a generation under the less draconian Articles of Confederation?

As Paul opened TR:AM, "You have been lied to." But the focus of our efforts shouldn't be on any particular lie, but on removing the mechanism by which they receive the power to spread their lies and propaganda. Even if the US govt actively ordered the WTC attack, our mission shouldn't change. Focusing on 9/11 is a red herring that TPTB will use as a 'wedge issue' to polarize people away from the liberty movement in general.

Your beliefs on 9/11 may be your motivation for seeking liberty, but using it as your only tool in advancing liberty is a great mistake.

LibForestPaul

03-12-2010, 02:10 PM

I don't buy the 9/11 commission report, but what is the point of making "spreading this truth" your "most important issue"? Because those involved, if part of the government must be routed out and their lies exposed.

Isn't your most important issue freedom?
Isn't it better to focus on preserving freedom from draconian legislation, whatever pretense it is passed under, than questioning the pretenses?
This will do both. It would should the citizens how they have been manipulated, it would show the world that what liberty is, it would topple those who want to strip our freedoms those who are passing the legislation.

As Paul opened TR:AM, "You have been lied to." But the focus of our efforts shouldn't be on any particular lie, but on removing the mechanism by which they receive the power to spread their lies and propaganda. This can only happen if the truth is exposed. So that the citizenry will see their manipulation.

dannno

03-12-2010, 02:13 PM

Your beliefs on 9/11 may be your motivation for seeking liberty, but using it as your only tool in advancing liberty is a great mistake.

It can be a great tool to convert people, because it is something that everybody can relate to and some of the people who were in power then are still in power now.

It is a better tool to convert people than the media makes it out to be, the media acts like everybody thinks truthers are crazy..but time and time again we have shown that the vast majority of people don't neccessarily buy the official story.

Did you watch Jesse Ventura on The View the other day?? Audience sounded like it was a truther majority when Jesse came through on his points.

dannno

03-12-2010, 02:15 PM

wth :confused:

I don't buy the 9/11 commission report, but what is the point of making "spreading this truth" your "most important issue"?

Isn't your most important issue freedom? Isn't it better to focus on preserving freedom from draconian legislation, whatever pretense it is passed under, than questioning the pretenses?

Was the Warren Commission right about JFK? What about the official story of the Great Depression? What about the story that the Constitution is the great protector of liberty, even though the US existed for nearly a generation under the less draconian Articles of Confederation?

As Paul opened TR:AM, "You have been lied to." But the focus of our efforts shouldn't be on any particular lie, but on removing the mechanism by which they receive the power to spread their lies and propaganda. Even if the US govt actively ordered the WTC attack, our mission shouldn't change. Focusing on 9/11 is a red herring that TPTB will use as a 'wedge issue' to polarize people away from the liberty movement in general.

Your beliefs on 9/11 may be your motivation for seeking liberty, but using it as your only tool in advancing liberty is a great mistake.

I don't buy the 9/11 commission report, but what is the point of making "spreading this truth" your "most important issue"? Because those involved, if part of the government must be routed out and their lies exposed.

Isn't your most important issue freedom?
Isn't it better to focus on preserving freedom from draconian legislation, whatever pretense it is passed under, than questioning the pretenses?
This will do both. It would should the citizens how they have been manipulated, it would show the world that what liberty is, it would topple those who want to strip our freedoms those who are passing the legislation.

As Paul opened TR:AM, "You have been lied to." But the focus of our efforts shouldn't be on any particular lie, but on removing the mechanism by which they receive the power to spread their lies and propaganda. This can only happen if the truth is exposed. So that the citizenry will see their manipulation.

Anti Federalist

03-12-2010, 02:18 PM

I don't buy the 9/11 commission report, but what is the point of making "spreading this truth" your "most important issue"?

Isn't your most important issue freedom? Isn't it better to focus on preserving freedom from draconian legislation, whatever pretense it is passed under, than questioning the pretenses?

Was the Warren Commission right about JFK? What about the official story of the Great Depression? What about the story that the Constitution is the great protector of liberty, even though the US existed for nearly a generation under the less draconian Articles of Confederation?

As Paul opened TR:AM, "You have been lied to." But the focus of our efforts shouldn't be on any particular lie, but on removing the mechanism by which they receive the power to spread their lies and propaganda. Even if the US govt actively ordered the WTC attack, our mission shouldn't change. Focusing on 9/11 is a red herring that TPTB will use as a 'wedge issue' to polarize people away from the liberty movement in general.

Your beliefs on 9/11 may be your motivation for seeking liberty, but using it as your only tool in advancing liberty is a great mistake.

Never said it was my only tool.

I won't deny that it is, for me, a primary tool. I use my 1/2 inch box wrench a whole lot more than my bendable, fiber optic, self illuminated, observation tool.

"You have been lied to"... very very true, but, how do you prove that to a skeptic without confronting the lies and exposing why they are false?

mczerone

03-12-2010, 02:20 PM

This can only happen if the truth is exposed. So that the citizenry will see their manipulation.

Isn't the truth available about the other points I brought up? Isn't the truth available about this French poisoning?

Telling someone that they've been manipulated isn't a great way to win them to your side because they will likely defend their beliefs, so when you do point this out, you want to have the most irrefutable evidence possible. So why bring up the open-ended unknowables of 9/11, when there are plenty of concise and concrete examples like this?

Anti Federalist

03-12-2010, 02:24 PM

So why bring up the open-ended unknowables of 9/11, when there are plenty of concise and concrete examples like this?

What "unknowables"?

There are plenty of solid facts to point to collusion and conspiracy, more than enough to throw you or I in jail if government was persecuting us.

1) There's not enough evidence to connect 9/11 to OBL to put it on FBI's website.
2) The head of Pakistani intelligence wired $100,000 to lead hijacker Mohamed Atta.
3) CIA ties to both the Pakistani ISI and the Taliban.
4) Porter Goss's (ex CIA director) ties to Mahmud Ahmed, who wired that money, and was meeting with Goss on the morning of 9/11.
5) The 9/11 Commission Report made no mention of the allegation and stated that the question of who financed the terrorist attacks was "of little practical significance" and that it had "seen no evidence that any foreign government--or foreign government official--supplied any funding."

Oh, but we have to open every financial transaction we make to government snoops, on account that we might be funding terrorists.

Just those five confirmed, undisputed facts are enough to make the "official" story stink like the bullshit it is.

Arklatex

03-12-2010, 02:51 PM

We should find every name in the CIA during this time, the administration, everyone even slightly involved and put them all in jail. This is a crime of the highest magnitude. I know they are old and what would that accomplish.. nothing.

We should put our current CIA all in jail. They won't go down without a war. I hope everyone here is 1) coming at terms with what divine side they are on 2) knows how to use a gun and has plenty of ammo 3) has land seed sun water and love

YouTube - Bob Marley - One Love (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8onbDZmAwhE)

Anti Federalist

03-12-2010, 03:55 PM

the real "smoking gun" was a White House document sent to members of the Rockefeller Commission formed in 1975 to investigate CIA abuses. It contained the names of a number of French nationals who had been secretly employed by the CIA and made direct reference to the "Pont St. Esprit incident."

That should be easy enough to document.

I'm sure that will be dug up shortly.

That, for me, would be enough to confirm or debunk this story.

Bruno

03-12-2010, 04:01 PM

That should be easy enough to document.

I'm sure that will be dug up shortly.

That, for me, would be enough to confirm or debunk this story.

Freedom of Information Act?

pcosmar

03-12-2010, 04:12 PM

http://michael-robinett.com/declass/c000.htm

Yes there is mention of foreign testing by deep cover agents.

I did not find that specific reference, but had not searched thoroughly for that.

I just can't read much of that at a time.
Anger ensues.
:(

Anti Federalist

03-12-2010, 04:45 PM

Freedom of Information Act?

Pete already found a link to the documents.

John Taylor

03-12-2010, 04:55 PM

[QUOTE=Anti Federalist;2591356]Oh, but government is too inept to carry out such things, they'd never do such a thing, you're a conspiracy loon.:rolleyes:

French bread spiked with LSD in CIA experimentQUOTE]

Where do I get a slice?

Anti Federalist

03-12-2010, 07:16 PM

ARealConservative

03-13-2010, 08:03 AM

The most common reason for really bad trips on LSD are impure formulas or having too much...

the most common reason is because a person has insecurities are otherwise are not happy with themselves and this attitude manifests itself in a bad reaction under the influence of a psychedelic.

Mach

03-13-2010, 10:30 PM

And that stopped in 1969?

The dead in Arkansas surrounding the CIA drug and gun running operation that was run from the White House, that was a figment of my imagination?

School of the Americas, training "terrorists" by the thousands was what, again?

The real detonators and bomb used in the 1993 WTC that was given to the informant by the FBI, is a hallucination?

The dead of Waco, deserved it I suppose?

This government set out on a course of action that has left a million plus Iraqis dead.

This government is no more, it has been hijacked and corrupted, it no longer represents the people and is no longer abiding by the Constitution in any meaningful way.

It is murderous and illegitimate and it will kill as many people as it thinks it needs to, in order to further it's goals.

That includes "false flag" attacks, which it has already done and planned for in the past. This is a historical point of fact.

To think otherwise about the crisis we all face is naive, dangerous and intellectually lazy.

Mena, Arkansas

"An independent group of researchers in Arkansas are charging that Governor Bill Clinton is covering up an airport used by the CIA and major cocaine smugglers in a remote corner of the Ozark mountains. According to Deborah Robinson of In These Times, the Inter mountain Regional Airport in Mena,Arkansas continues to be the hub of operations for people like assassinated cocaine kingpin Barry Seal as well as government intelligence operations linked to arms and drug smuggling."

If anyone hasn't heard this story before then watch this video, let's put it this way, lots of witnesses died and the guy that dug into the whole story and started bringing attention to it, a NBC cameraman and investigator, died too.

YouTube - The Mena Connection (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3Vy3Ov4A9g)
YouTube - The Mena Connection - Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37afUzEh_fI)
YouTube - The Mena Connection - Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkYVNUXSwGg)
YouTube - The Mena Connection - Part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj54zWK1Gmg)
YouTube - The Mena Connection - Part 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTuYj62xkHI)
YouTube - The Mena Connection - Part 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q38RDBbkus)

dannno, they/he is not supposed to use the same exact script, they have to mix it up at least a little hoping no one will notice.:D A great flag.... I'll bookmark it.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2592020&postcount=39
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dannno

03-13-2010, 10:40 PM

the most common reason is because a person has insecurities are otherwise are not happy with themselves and this attitude manifests itself in a bad reaction under the influence of a psychedelic.

No, no, see that's the low-level "bad trip" which can and is certainly worsened by bad formulas..but bad formulas can give ANYBODY a REALLY bad trip. The point is if you have clean acid and you have insecurities or are otherwise not happy with yourself, you might have an introspective trip that seems a little on the scary side, but it's not going to be that bad, it is therapeutic and one will likely be the better for it..

There are different levels of bad formulas. The really clean stuff will not give you a bad trip to the point where shit is going completely crazy unless you overdose or put yourself in a really bad situation (which is one reason I prefer to do hallucinogens in the wilderness). So. Some bad formulas aren't that bad, but can worsen a bad trip and aren't as positive as the clean formulas.. other bad formulas are so bad, that they will give anybody a bad trip and make it really bad for the person you described.. and then there's everything in between. I've only had really clean acid and only done it a few times.. but i ask a lot of questions... i'd also add that i've never ever had a bad experience and i'm pretty insecure ;)

But this was likely a derivative and something a bit different that was essentially a "really bad forumla", or they put like 5-10 hits into every (average) slice and people were eating multiple slices..