Hey all, look at what the Brits are doing for Ron Paul

[Dave Wood]

http://brits4ronpaul.blogspot.com/2007/10/brits4ronpaul-now-sponsor-for-ron-paul.html

I have seen some people on these forums question what help the foreign meetups are to the campaign. I think this will start to answer that question:)

[austin356]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FEC Guidelines are unenforceable on foreigners!!

They can spend whatever they want on billboards without fear of the Nazis comin' to get 'em.

[Jordan]

Woot.

Ron Paul as president would be great for the rest of the world

[OptionsTrader]

I am no lawyer, but I believe the enforcement of FEC regulations is applicable on the U.S. person(s) that take the payment.

http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml

The Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) prohibits any foreign national from contributing, donating or spending funds in connection with any federal, state, or local election in the United States, either directly or indirectly. It is also unlawful to help foreign nationals violate that ban or to solicit, receive or accept contributions or donations from them. Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to fines and/or imprisonment.

[KewlRonduderules]

Looks like this is illegal:

The Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) prohibits any foreign national from contributing, donating or spending funds in connection with any federal, state, or local election in the United States, either directly or indirectly. It is also unlawful to help foreign nationals violate that ban or to solicit, receive or accept contributions or donations from them. Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to fines and/or imprisonment.

:(

whoops already posted.

[OptionsTrader]

Yup. And if you are a U.S. citizen and you take the payment, you are subject to the law as well.

[murrayrothbard]

Every person in the world is subject to the laws of the US.

Amerika! F$#k yeah! ;)

[quickmike]

Yup. And if you are a U.S. citizen and you take the payment, you are subject to the law as well.

So if a Brit buys a billboard ad with his own money in the US its illegal?

[leipo]

But why then was Rudy Giuliani able to have a fundraiser in London?

EDIT: oops, i guess that was for Americans, residing in England, only. Nevermind.

[austin356]

Yup. And if you are a U.S. citizen and you take the payment, you are subject to the law as well.



Its the advertiser's responsibility.

There are certainly branches of companies that will "ask no questions".

I can already name some, though since this board is open I rather not.

[OptionsTrader]

Every person in the world is subject to the laws of the US.

Amerika! F$#k yeah! ;)

Freedom is the only way yeah.

[KewlRonduderules]

So if a Brit buys a billboard ad with his own money in the US its illegal?


Looks like it.

[KewlRonduderules]

But why then was Rudy Giuliani able to have a fundraiser in London?

It was a fund raiser for American citizens in London. There is a large financial sector of American citizens in London.

[ronpaulhawaii]

I don't see how this prohibits foreign nationals from contributing to the grassroots, as long as the money they give to whomever is not then used to donate to RPHQ. I would like to see clarification of this.

prohibits any foreign national from contributing, donating or spending funds in connection with any federal, state, or local election in the United States, either directly or indirectly.

The language is broad, and I imagine meant to discourage, but I cannot see how this would prevent donations to the Grassroots. We are not involved in the actual election in anyway but as individual voters and contributers. So yes, This outlaws the Brits from giving a poor person money to donate to the campaign, but does it outlaw the Brits from donating to a poor person so he can eat, hence vote?

[OptionsTrader]

RPH,

Read section Soliciting, Accepting, or Receiving Contributions and Donations from Foreign Nationals, it is quite clear:
http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml

As noted earlier, the Act prohibits knowingly soliciting, accepting or receiving contributions or donations from foreign nationals. In this context, "knowingly" means that a person:

Has actual knowledge that the funds solicited, accepted, or received are from a foreign national;
Is aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the funds solicited, accepted, or received are likely to be from a foreign national;
Is aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to inquire whether the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national.
11 CFR 110.20(a)(4)(i), (ii) and (iii).
Pertinent facts that may lead to inquiry by the recipient include, but are not limited to the following: A donor or contributor uses a foreign passport, provides a foreign address, makes a contribution from a foreign bank, or resides abroad. Obtaining a copy of a current and valid U.S. passport would satisfy the duty to inquire whether the funds solicited, accepted, or received are from a foreign national. 11 CFR 110.20(a)(7).

[KewlRonduderules]

I am sure there is a way to get around the "knowingly" part. But I rather not comment further on that because this would encourage illegal activity.

But if others want to, go right ahead.

;)


What I don't understand is how is it that all these international lobby groups like AIPAC are able to donate to campaigns. Does anybody know how they work?

[ronpaulhawaii]

I still don't see how it applies, ISTM the "person" being addressed in this section is the actual candidate/committee.

I find the following section interesting, also.



When a federal political committee (a committee active in federal elections) receives a contribution it believes may be from a foreign national, it must:

Return the contribution to the donor without depositing it; or
Deposit the contribution and take steps to determine its legality, as described below.Either action must be taken within 10 days of the treasurer's receipt. 11 CFR 103.3(b)(1) (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14feb20071500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2007/janqtr/11cfr103.3.htm).
If the committee decides to deposit the contribution, the treasurer must make sure that the funds are not spent because they may have to be refunded.


and as far as loopholes,



An immigrant may make a contribution if he or she has a "green card" indicating his or her lawful admittance for permanent residence in the United States.

[Man from La Mancha]

Does this mean that foreign nationals can't give gas money to the Grannies? Does chippen distinguish where the money comes from?
There must be millions of US citizens living abroad. Can't people in each country spend all the money they want setting up Ron Paul demonstrations and recruiting campaigns around all USA military bases and tourist agencies Americans frequent?

.

[OptionsTrader]

Does this mean that foreign nationals can't give gas money to the Grannies? Does chippen distinguish where the money comes from?
There must be millions of US citizens living abroad. Can't people in each country spend all the money they want setting up Ron Paul demonstrations and recruiting campaigns around all USA military bases and tourist agencies Americans frequent?

Living abroad isn't the issue. The rules are for foreign nationals making the donations.

[smtwngrl]

OK, they can't legally contribute financially.

But, anyway, I think the greatest thing they could contribute to the Campaign would not be financial. Their greatest contribution would be for people here to know about those who support Ron Paul in other countries and what they have to say about why they support him. That would be a powerful message.

Maybe we need a "persons from other countries want Ron Paul to be our president brochure, with statements from foreigners about why Ron Paul should be our president. Some have even said things like they wished they had someone in their country like Ron Paul, or that the world needs Ron Paul to be the U.S. President.

[ronpaulhawaii]

There is no question about contribitions to RPHQ. The question is about gas money to the grannies.

[OptionsTrader]

There is no question about contribitions to RPHQ. The question is about gas money to the grannies.

The original topic of this thread was for "Brits for Ron Paul" and a billboard they want to rent.

A U.S. citizen acepting funds for this activity would be subject to:

The Prohibition
The Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) prohibits any foreign national from contributing, donating or spending funds in connection with any federal, state, or local election in the United States, either directly or indirectly. It is also unlawful to help foreign nationals violate that ban or to solicit, receive or accept contributions or donations from them. Persons who knowingly and willfully engage in these activities may be subject to fines and/or imprisonment.


and


Soliciting, Accepting, or Receiving Contributions and Donations from Foreign Nationals
As noted earlier, the Act prohibits knowingly soliciting, accepting or receiving contributions or donations from foreign nationals. In this context, "knowingly" means that a person:

Has actual knowledge that the funds solicited, accepted, or received are from a foreign national;
Is aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the funds solicited, accepted, or received are likely to be from a foreign national;
Is aware of facts that would lead a reasonable person to inquire whether the source of the funds solicited, accepted or received is a foreign national.
11 CFR 110.20(a)(4)(i), (ii) and (iii).
Pertinent facts that may lead to inquiry by the recipient include, but are not limited to the following: A donor or contributor uses a foreign passport, provides a foreign address,

makes a contribution from a foreign bank, or resides abroad. Obtaining a copy of a current and valid U.S. passport would satisfy the duty to inquire whether the funds solicited, accepted, or received are from a foreign national. 11 CFR 110.20(a)(7).

source:
http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml

[Man from La Mancha]

Living abroad isn't the issue. The rules are for foreign nationals making the donations.
What I'm implying is since the money is spent in countries outside of the USA then the USA has no jurisdiction on any money spent overseas to promote Ron.

.

[OptionsTrader]

What I'm implying is since the money is spent in countries outside of the USA then the USA has no jurisdiction on any money spent overseas to promote Ron. .

The original topic is for "Brits" to buy billboard advertising in the U.S.

[Man from La Mancha]

The original topic is for "Brits" to buy billboard advertising in the U.S.

I realize that, I was just thinking of ways that their money could be used to influence Americans to vote for Ron. Millions of US citizens travel or live in countries that US laws don't apply so foreigners could spend as much as they want influencing them on their own turf. That bill board would be great outside the London airport where 1000's of USA people would see when visiting England. Can the British buy a billboard sign then rent the sign for $1 to Ron supporters?

.

[OptionsTrader]

Can the British buy a billboard sign then rent the sign for $1 to Ron supporters?

No.

[SeanEdwards]

What if the billboard was issue oriented and didn't actually mention RP?

Something like:

"Abolish the IRS in 2008"

Or

"Just Come Home"

I think it would be difficult to say that either sign was in connection to an election campaign.

P.S. This should be a RP campaign slogan:

"Just say no to the DEA."

[OptionsTrader]

Read
http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml

Even "indirect" contibutions by foreign nationals are against the rules.

[TooConservative]

Form a front company only to sell campaign buttons to Europeans. Offer 3 different buttons for $25, $50, $100 (or euros).

Use the proceeds to buy billlboards.

[Ninja Homer]

Form a front company only to sell campaign buttons to Europeans. Offer 3 different buttons for $25, $50, $100 (or euros).

Use the proceeds to buy billlboards.

Limited edition buttons? Where do I get one!?!;)

[john_anderson_ii]

Note to mods. Guessing on stuff like this will either lead to getting in trouble, or a less effective grassroots movement. You have deleted my threads on similar subjects for *discussing illegal activity*. Try to take a closer look this time. I'm not discussing illegal activity, I'm trying to clear up what is legal and what is not. We cannot run the most aggressive grassroots effort possible without knowing what we are and aren't allowed to do! We should be asking questions about, and discussing, this stuff instead of guessing.

I think this section of the law is being read into way to much:


prohibits any foreign national from contributing, donating or spending funds in connection with any federal, state, or local election in the United States, either directly or indirectly


I think a 10 or 15 minute conversation with a judge or lawyer from this field would clear this up. It's obvious this clause was meant to apply to 'official' elections. A grassroots organization is not a federal, state, or local election by any stretch of the imagination. There is nothing official about us, we don't have a charter, or a headquarters. Attempting to apply this legislation to the grassroots movement via the "directly or indirectly" clause would be unconscionable. The grassroots organization is in NO WAY affiliated with ANY campaign or ANY committee, we aren't a political organization, we aren't even an organization!

I am of the opinion (but don't my word for it) that you cannot be held personally accountable for accepting funds from foreign friends and using those funds to purchase whatever you desire. Even in this totalitarian state, the government does not have the power to decide what you, as an individual, spend your money on, no matter how you got the money so long as the items you are purchasing aren't illegal. Billboard space isn't illegal.

So not only would applying this section of the law be unconscionable, but it would be unenforceable. What if I convinced the 'brits4ronpaul' to pay my monthly bills and rent, so that would free up money so I could use my paycheck to support Ron Paul? Would that be enforceable? No. What if I convinced them to use their chip in money to buy up some commodity, sell it to me at a loss, and then I'd resell it and use it for a billboard? Enforceable? No! How about I got the money from 'brits4ronpaul', and then put up a billboard that was nothing but a huge picture of Ron Paul and I shaking hands. What if I was so proud of that picture that I wanted everyone to see it?

Don't accept "No" for an answer without asking these types of questions!

These laws can only apply to an official campaign in an official election. We are all individuals getting money where we can, and we are then choosing what to spend that money on. It's just about that cut and dried.

Does anyone know a lawyer that might be able to back this up and/or clarify? I know one that's volunteered to help my meet up if we need him. I'll see if I can get in touch with him.

[ChooseLiberty]

So Clinton and Ghouliani have found no loopholes to get around the contribution restrictions?

I'm guessing there's stuff going on.

[OptionsTrader]

The rules are extremely clear.
http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml

[OptionsTrader]

A billboard advertisement is an "Independent Expenditure (http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/pubfund.shtml)" and such expenditures have to be reported to the FEC and foreign nationals are not allowed to make independent expenditures per 11CFR110.20 (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/12feb20041500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2004/janqtr/11cfr110.20.htm).

[ronpaulhawaii]

I thought RP was not accepting public funds (matching funds or whatever they call it)



This brochure gives a brief history of Presidential election public funding and an overview of how the process works. The brochure also explains the ways individuals may support publicly funded Presidential candidates

[UtahApocalypse]

What if I made a custom Ron Paul Riders shirt for the British supporters, with the persons name. I charged say $100 since I have to rework the graphics. Now that is MY money to do with as I see fit, correct?

[OptionsTrader]

I'd rather not debate the gray areas and attempt to find loopholes, but I was just addressing the original topic of "brits for ron paul" and their desire to purchase advertising on a billboard.

[Bryan]

Disclaimer: Various campaigning activities within the US are governed by various laws by various regulatory and enforcement agencies. Some of these laws may prohibit the activities details within this message, but the laws are vague so they may be OK. Based on the complexities and generalities of the laws we simply have no clue, even paying for high priced legal council does not assure anything. Therefore, this website and the owners can not endorse any specific campaign activity as it may be illegal. Before engaging in any action be sure to consult with legal council and be prepared to face interventions with various government agencies and pay stiff fines. Is this possible? Is this likely? We simply have no clue but we can not take responsibility for your illegal activities which for most people include quite a plethora of daily law violations.

[john_anderson_ii]

A billboard advertisement is an "Independent Expenditure (http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/pubfund.shtml)" and such expenditures have to be reported to the FEC and foreign nationals are not allowed to make independent expenditures per 11CFR110.20 (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/12feb20041500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2004/janqtr/11cfr110.20.htm).

I don't think the true point is about what the money is spent on, but rather, who the money was given to.

Here's the relevant sections:


(b) Contributions and donations by foreign nationals in connection
with elections. A foreign national shall not, directly or indirectly,
make a contribution or a donation of money or other thing of value, or
expressly or impliedly promise to make a contribution or a donation, in
connection with any Federal, State, or local election.


All clear here. The individual who would hypothetically receive the money is not connected with a federal, state or local election. Just a guy trying to get his opinion heard.



(c) Contributions and donations by foreign nationals to political
committees and organizations of political parties. A foreign national
shall not, directly or indirectly, make a contribution or donation to:

(1) A political committee of a political party, including a national
party committee, a national congressional campaign committee, or a
State, district, or local party committee, including a non-Federal
account of a State, district, or local party committee, or


We are none of these committees, just like minded individuals with no connection to one another what so ever, except maybe philosophically.



(2) An organization of a political party whether or not the
organization is a political committee under 11 CFR 100.5.


This is the only caveat that could be a show stopper. It does however, place the burden of proof on the accuser. Somehow, the FEC would have to prove that this grassroots effort is, in fact, a PAC.

Since the official campaign has no control what-so-ever over what we do, the FEC cannot claim that we are an organization of a political party.

So, that what it all comes down to, is the grassroots a campaign a bunch of like minded individuals or a PAC. If we are a group of like minded individuals each doing our thing, then the laws of the FEC do not apply to us in our actions or funding. If we are a PAC, then we must follow these rules.

I need to find the definitions sections of this legislation to see how PAC is defined. Anyone seen any case history that would solidify the definition of a PAC?

[OptionsTrader]

I'm not going to debate this further. If the laws as written are unclear to you, I suggest that you read the laws again more carefully.

[Mortikhi]

Yup. And if you are a U.S. citizen and you take the payment, you are subject to the law as well.
How about I do some web work for them for payment of $2300 US, then I donate that money to the Ron Paul campaign or simply use that money to buy advertisements on my little lonesome?

[john_anderson_ii]

I'm not going to debate this further. If the laws as written are unclear to you, I suggest that you read the laws again more carefully.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm simply questioning some assertions made. We, as grassrooters fighting an uphill battle, should never just accept "You can't do that", for face value. We should be looking into gray areas like this, learning as much as we can, weighing the risks against the benifits, and then making our decisions.

I'm convinced that if someone were to do this, and it were to be exposed, they would be
1.) "charged" in whatever sense the FEC handles such things.
2.) Found to be not guilty, or not responsible, after taking a serious hit to the checkbook defending themselves.

So, the decision to participate in this is up to the individual, and not to be condemned or praised by the grassroots organization at large.

[ronpaulhawaii]

From a lawyer friend

Here is the statute, 22 USC Sec. 611. Note it even includes "things of
value". A torn piece of paper, a paper clip, dryer lint, ok, those are not
things of value. A bottle of coca cola, maybe not. $10.00? probably. I
would not miss with foreign money or anything of value, dryer lint excepted
(maybe OJ's dryer lint might have value).. Probably is a violation.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite%3A+22USC611

I'm trying to wrap my mind around it but thought to share it for bettre minds to consider

[BrianH]

We, as grassrooters fighting an uphill battle, should never just accept "You can't do that", for face value. We should be looking into gray areas like this, learning as much as we can, weighing the risks against the benifits, and then making our decisions.

I read somewhere (may even have been on this board) that foreigners are allowed to give to meet-up groups or similar groups. Brits4RonPaul have chosen such a group to support: http://www.newpatriots.us/

On the front page of their website it says: We are presently raising money to rent a billboard in the Norfolk, NE area. This is a privately organized group with no affiliation with the official Ron Paul 2008 campaign. Anyone may contribute and in any desired amount.

Presumably that means US citizens can donate more than $2300 and foreigners can donate as well. At least that's my impression.

[Nefertiti]

I read somewhere (may even have been on this board) that foreigners are allowed to give to meet-up groups or similar groups. Brits4RonPaul have chosen such a group to support: http://www.newpatriots.us/
.

Permanent US residents may contribute. No other foreigner can.

[austin356]

Ugh why do yall care soo much about legality?

The real issue for me is getting caught. And if someone is caught it will not be the foreigners that are in violation (what they are going to be extradited for fec violations that may not stand up under SCOTUS? Doubt it).

It would be the advertiser. And event then there would have to be "knowingly" complicit.

Independent expenditures regulations are there as a scare tactic. It is completely unenforceable in a free society, hell even unenforceable in China if the person is prudent.

[OptionsTrader]

It is completely unenforceable in a free society

Too bad you do not live in one of those.

[austin356]

Too bad you do not live in one of those.



should have said quasi free :)

or relatively free vs the soviet union...

our cash is still cash, no rfid in it yet!