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View Full Version : Someone Vandalized the New York Federal Reserve




doctor jones
03-07-2010, 01:32 PM
Found this on the Daily Paul: http://www.dailypaul.com/node/128192

MRoCkEd
03-07-2010, 01:38 PM
YouTube - New York Federal Reserve Bank gets tagged "Audit Me" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTtHOu3Jqyg)

torchbearer
03-07-2010, 01:38 PM
what purpose does it serve?

puppetmaster
03-07-2010, 01:38 PM
lol I like it....

rp08orbust
03-07-2010, 01:43 PM
What was that symbol on the right?

t0rnado
03-07-2010, 01:47 PM
Awesome! I just hope he doesn't get arrested.

specsaregood
03-07-2010, 01:48 PM
Pretty effing stupid to tape yourself doing it. I hope for his sake that was that spray-on chalk stuff.

RM918
03-07-2010, 01:48 PM
Now this is one terrorist action I will condone.


Pretty effing stupid to tape yourself doing it. I hope for his sake that was that spray-on chalk stuff.

Crap, you think they can get us on 'Conspiracy To Commit Vandalism'? That might actually not be so bad.

LibertyMage
03-07-2010, 02:24 PM
No, I don't condone this.

Vandalism is only going to perpetuate the idea that we are some fringe movement. This was a terrible idea. The penis was just stupid and immature. Honestly, a liberal or neo-con that wanted to do damage to our movement couldn't have been more effective than this guy.

Juan McCain
03-07-2010, 03:01 PM
at the youtube site @www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTtHOu3Jqyg

"I was just downtown in the financial district on vacation touring wall street when . . . "

RJB
03-07-2010, 03:05 PM
Vandalism isn't cool.

But

Neither is indebting and sucking the wealth from the people of the United States.

The sad part is that the vandal will go to jail, even though he harmed noone. The Fed will keep stealing our money and get filthy rich in the process.

Inkblots
03-07-2010, 03:06 PM
Such sophomoric behavior lends an aura of disrepute to the entire movement - it plays directly into the media narrative the financial elite are crafting that those who favor free markets in money are unserious and seeking to vandalize the economy.

Further, all vandalism is a form of violence against property, and no true classical liberal would condone it.

haaaylee
03-07-2010, 03:17 PM
might have been stupid, but the person who filmed this wasn't connected to the guy who was doing it. according to the video's youtube page he was just near wall street when he spotted this.


hr then googled "audit me" + "federal reserve" and came across HR 1207.

so, at least once person was educated in this matter, through this act.

instead of vandalizing the Fed maybe we should put up signs near them saying "Audit Me" - a tactic now proven to actually have people Google it. Maybe: "Google 'Audit the Fed'"

sunghoko
03-07-2010, 03:21 PM
It takes tax dollars to clean this up. not liking it

specsaregood
03-07-2010, 03:25 PM
might have been stupid, but the person who filmed this wasn't connected to the guy who was doing it. according to the video's youtube page he was just near wall street when he spotted this.

hr then googled "audit me" + "federal reserve" and came across HR 1207.
so, at least once person was educated in this matter, through this act.


Come on, you are buying that story? LOL


I was just downtown in the financial district on vacation touring wall street when I came across this. After a quick google search of the term Audit Me with Federal Reserve I came across lots of news stories for HR 1207, apparently some bill congress won't pass in the Senate.

Yeah, I just happen to be in the financial district in the middle of the night. I just happen to be there when this guy was tagging the building and the guy didn't mind that i was videotaping him doing it. Oh then I decided to create a youtube account just to put this video up?

puppetmaster
03-07-2010, 03:34 PM
No, I don't condone this.

Vandalism is only going to perpetuate the idea that we are some fringe movement. This was a terrible idea. The penis was just stupid and immature. Honestly, a liberal or neo-con that wanted to do damage to our movement couldn't have been more effective than this guy.

we are fringe: A small but active minority will change the majority. peaceful change will not happen my friends. It was a dream but they are not going to give up peacefully.

Inkblots
03-07-2010, 03:44 PM
peaceful change will not happen my friends. It was a dream but they are not going to give up peacefully.

Um, you think there's going to be a violent insurrection in this country? If so, prepare to be surprised. Or in prison, depending on how pro-active you are.

RJB
03-07-2010, 03:48 PM
instead of vandalizing the Fed maybe we should put up signs near them saying "Audit Me" - a tactic now proven to actually have people Google it. Maybe: "Google 'Audit the Fed'"

That might be a good idea. Maybe just taping fliers to telephone poles might work.

pacelli
03-07-2010, 03:52 PM
I don't condone nor condemn it. It doesn't help me and it doesn't hurt me.

Juan McCain
03-07-2010, 03:53 PM
I'd call it civil disobedience that (barely) crosses over the line into vandalism per se.

Maybe it brings out a little awareness, but passing out flyers, taping to telephone poles would be way better.

LibertarianfromGermany
03-07-2010, 03:54 PM
It takes tax dollars to clean this up. not liking it

Yeah, maybe the fed should give money to the guy since he created a job!

jkr
03-07-2010, 04:00 PM
private (very private) property

waste of resources

they will just charge it to "us"

hugolp
03-07-2010, 04:00 PM
Yeah, maybe the fed should give money to the guy since he created a job!

Hahahahahaha. Bastiat4theLulz!

TheConstitutionLives
03-07-2010, 04:02 PM
might have been stupid, but the person who filmed this wasn't connected to the guy who was doing it. according to the video's youtube page he was just near wall street when he spotted this.


hr then googled "audit me" + "federal reserve" and came across HR 1207.

so, at least once person was educated in this matter, through this act.

instead of vandalizing the Fed maybe we should put up signs near them saying "Audit Me" - a tactic now proven to actually have people Google it. Maybe: "Google 'Audit the Fed'"

RIGHTTTTTT. No, the person who posted this here is probably involved. Surely you're not naive enough to think this person was walking along with a camera rolling at night and just happens to catch the WHOLE THING on video. Then the idiot almost self-incriminates himself by choosing a user name called "THE AUDIT ME". The accomplice who posted this on Daily Paul has no post other than this video and he's only been a registered user for 11 hours. The original poster of this thread might even be him b/c he registered at THIS forum just this week.

To the idiot who did this, you acted like a KID and you embarrass us all. You will be caught and punished. Let's just hope that the media doesn't publicize such immature actions.

TheConstitutionLives
03-07-2010, 04:08 PM
Notice his name is "Doctor JONES" who says in his profile on this site that he is in NY via TEXAS. Further evidence that he's an Alex Jones goofball disciple. His profile picture also looks very similar to the guy in the video. It's too obvious the kid wants attention.

lbadragan
03-07-2010, 04:12 PM
This kind of thing is so counterproductive to our cause it's almost incredible that someone would actually think this helps!!!

Juan McCain
03-07-2010, 04:16 PM
One could figure the person - or small group - doing the filming were also acting as a lookout for any patrol car that might have been rolling by.

Not out of the question that it necessarily is someone who even believes in this -
it could be an adversary group even distracting from Ron Paul with the prank and postings.

So . . . probably a Grayson group . . . then they could use the video to try to defame Rand.

TheConstitutionLives
03-07-2010, 04:21 PM
Not out of the question that it necessarily is someone who even believes in this -
it could be an adversary group even distracting from Ron Paul with the prank and postings.

So . . . probably a Grayson group . . . then they could use the video to try to defame Rand.

That's quite a stretch. So, no, I don't think that is likely.

LibertarianfromGermany
03-07-2010, 04:22 PM
One could figure the person - or small group - doing the filming were also acting as a lookout for any patrol car that might have been rolling by.

Not out of the question that it necessarily is someone who even believes in this -
it could be an adversary group even distracting from Ron Paul with the prank and postings.

So . . . probably a Grayson group . . . then they could use the video to try to defame Rand.

hm... no.

TheConstitutionLives
03-07-2010, 04:23 PM
This is really too easy. Doctor Jones' signature links to his youtube page. I didn't scan all the Ron Paul videos but I did notice a comment someone left on the main page:

Mahalo00o (5 months ago)

Really loved you vid on Dr. Paul's visit to the New York branch of the Fed. Excellent video quality, production, and music choices. Please keep them coming!


Doctor Jones, grow up. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/image.php?u=25877&dateline=1267574989&type=profile

doctor jones
03-07-2010, 05:08 PM
Notice his name is "Doctor JONES" who says in his profile on this site that he is in NY via TEXAS. Further evidence that he's an Alex Jones goofball disciple. His profile picture also looks very similar to the guy in the video. It's too obvious the kid wants attention.

Excuse me I have no love for Alex Jones. Especially after what he did to Debra Medina. I wish truthers would go away, but because I believe in the first amendment I won't silence them, only wish they'd silence themselves. I've been on the daily paul a lot longer and just started posting on here, found the thread, posted it here, end of story, not involved with this.

Made the poll cause I'm not sure where I stand on it either.

doctor jones
03-07-2010, 05:10 PM
This is really too easy. Doctor Jones' signature links to his youtube page. I didn't scan all the Ron Paul videos but I did notice a comment someone left on the main page:

Mahalo00o (5 months ago)

Really loved you vid on Dr. Paul's visit to the New York branch of the Fed. Excellent video quality, production, and music choices. Please keep them coming!



Is someone trying to slander me? You shouldn't be making accusations. I had nothing to do with this. I do pay attention to what goes on in NY, so sue me.

Juan McCain
03-07-2010, 05:19 PM
This is really too easy. . . .

Exactly my point . . . don't be so fooled.

doctor jones
03-07-2010, 05:21 PM
Also Doctor Jones is a tribute to the great indiana jones who my dad looks like not alex jones, haha.

RM918
03-07-2010, 05:29 PM
Alright, alright. You get down to the brass tacks and I guess 'condone', as in taking responsibility for it, I guess it was immature and a pretty dumb thing to do and will do more harm than good in the long run, so I'd withdraw it.

But it was pretty funny.

haaaylee
03-07-2010, 05:36 PM
the thread turned into a conspiracy thread quite fast.


but yes, i didn't pay as close attention to the "dots" as you guys, but who knows.
i still support my idea of taking this idea but getting rid of the vandalizing part. ( :

Tenbatsu
03-07-2010, 05:41 PM
Those who took part in the Boston tea party did so because they were being taxed without representation.

We are being taxed through inflation, debt monetization, and an unstable currency via the Federal Reserve banking system; also without representation. This act of vandalism is quite warranted and I wish more people to follow in this man's footsteps.

It will be impossible to bring down the current system if we keep playing by their rules. Eventually we are going to have to take action contrary to current state and federal legislation. This action is just the beginning.

Anti Federalist
03-07-2010, 05:49 PM
Those who took part in the Boston tea party did so because they were being taxed without representation.

We are being taxed through inflation, debt monetization, and an unstable currency via the Federal Reserve banking system; also without representation. This act of vandalism is quite warranted and I wish more people to follow in this man's footsteps.

It will be impossible to bring down the current system if we keep playing by their rules. Eventually we are going to have to take action contrary to current state and federal legislation. This action is just the beginning.

That.

QFT

The system does this:


60 drone hits kill 14 al-Qaeda men, 687 civilians

Apr 8, 2009 ... The number of the Pakistani civilians killed in those 50 attacks stood at ... Of the 50 drone attacks, targeting the Pakistani tribal areas ...
www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=21440

...every single day.

And we sit around and piss our pants because someone graffitti tagged the Fed building.

///FFS - Facepalm///

doctor jones
03-07-2010, 06:13 PM
That.

QFT

The system does this:



...every single day.

And we sit around and piss our pants because someone graffitti tagged the Fed building.

///FFS - Facepalm///


Yeah that's how I feel. I mean, obviously it goes against our principles, but it also goes against our principles to allow a private bank to operate a monopoly money supply and counterfeit whenever they see fit. When I first saw this I was like "holy shit, finally!"...but then you start to question your excitement and think about it and not just remain a reactionary. We can be concerned about this action being used to smears us, which the media might try to do, but it's this kind of outrage that will be needed I think to ever successfully shut down the Fed. Otherwise I guess we'll all just be waiting for the dollar collapse, which sounds like what most are conceding.

Anti Federalist
03-07-2010, 06:25 PM
We can be concerned about this action being used to smears us, which the media might try to do, but it's this kind of outrage that will be needed I think to ever successfully shut down the Fed.

We're already "smeared" and would continue to be even if we acted like saints.

The entrenched system booed Ron Paul when he talked of Jesus being the "Prince of Peace" at the "Values Voters" event back in '08.

That's who we are up against, people who boo Jesus, FFS.

And we still think we're going to get a "fair shake" from the likes of that?

BTW, welcome to the board...FYI, I'm one of those people you wish would "go away".

LibForestPaul
03-07-2010, 06:47 PM
Personally, I condone quite a bit more, but I won't mention what on this board.

For those that don't condone it, what will you wait for, until the boots come and kick down your door firing randomly?:mad:

tangent4ronpaul
03-07-2010, 07:00 PM
Too bad it wasn't Banksy

-t

QueenB4Liberty
03-07-2010, 07:04 PM
Those who took part in the Boston tea party did so because they were being taxed without representation.

We are being taxed through inflation, debt monetization, and an unstable currency via the Federal Reserve banking system; also without representation. This act of vandalism is quite warranted and I wish more people to follow in this man's footsteps.

It will be impossible to bring down the current system if we keep playing by their rules. Eventually we are going to have to take action contrary to current state and federal legislation. This action is just the beginning.

I agree. It would be wonderful if voting and peaceful protests made a difference, though. It would be easier.

pcosmar
03-07-2010, 07:27 PM
I would have to say I don't condone it. It is ineffective.
However I do not condemn it either. It is at the very least an expression of anger and frustration.

7402
03-07-2010, 09:23 PM
I won't answer the poll because I don't know the legality of "condoning criminal acts."

But to answer the question, though it is pretty stupid, you have no obligation to respect the rights of people who are robbing you blind, enslaving and killing people.

puppetmaster
03-07-2010, 09:29 PM
Um, you think there's going to be a violent insurrection in this country? If so, prepare to be surprised. Or in prison, depending on how pro-active you are.

trust me....I am prepared....just sleeping;)

Warrior_of_Freedom
03-07-2010, 09:32 PM
he's going to be taken away in a black bag

doctor jones
03-07-2010, 11:27 PM
BTW, welcome to the board...FYI, I'm one of those people you wish would "go away".

My point being, truthers have stained our candidates even if they don't claim to be truthers. I'm not saying you can't question 9/11 but the whole movement's goal to uncover the truth is an impossible one and something that the American public at large cannot stomach. Besides, I don't think there are enough facts to suggest accepting either side of the story. There are holes in the truth movement and the official report. It's JFK all over again, I think you have to stay away from this issue for several decades and focus on things that we can sway people on today...like the Fed.

andrewh817
03-08-2010, 06:07 PM
To everyone who voted "Yes," do you condone vandalism everywhere else as well?

Or are you a hypocrite.......I'm sure there's a few who condone it everywhere but something tells me it's not the majority.

Wouldn't it be ironic if they printed the money they're going to use to fix the damages?

doctor jones
03-08-2010, 06:42 PM
To everyone who voted "Yes," do you condone vandalism everywhere else as well?

Or are you a hypocrite.......I'm sure there's a few who condone it everywhere but something tells me it's not the majority.

Wouldn't it be ironic if they printed the money they're going to use to fix the damages?

What if I phrased the poll question this way:

Do you think we need more civil disobedience like this and in the way Ron Paul talks about to get the attention of the masses?

andrewh817
03-08-2010, 08:29 PM
What if I phrased the poll question this way:

Do you think we need more civil disobedience like this and in the way Ron Paul talks about to get the attention of the masses?

That's not phrasing it differently that's just asking a different question. But my answer to the second question is no as well. Civil disobedience often involves people marching with signs, vandalizing, and just generally causing chaos..... I don't see how that helps people become free.

If all the people instead of holding up signs actually got together to discuss ways to improve society, I'm all for that. But that's not civil disobedience, at least not yet.

QueenB4Liberty
03-08-2010, 09:33 PM
If all the people instead of holding up signs actually got together to discuss ways to improve society, I'm all for that. But that's not civil disobedience, at least not yet.

How long is it going to be for people to realize this is a lost cause? I mean, peaceful protests and all of that are nice, but just don't be fooled it actually accomplishes anything.

ChaosControl
03-08-2010, 10:00 PM
Officially no.
Unofficially yes.

puppetmaster
03-09-2010, 12:46 AM
That's not phrasing it differently that's just asking a different question. But my answer to the second question is no as well. Civil disobedience often involves people marching with signs, vandalizing, and just generally causing chaos..... I don't see how that helps people become free.

If all the people instead of holding up signs actually got together to discuss ways to improve society, I'm all for that. But that's not civil disobedience, at least not yet.


Hey have you ever heard of the Boston Tea Party....little chaos and lots of vandalism and surprise those actions helped America become free:rolleyes:.
Too bad most people have forgotten, Too much Ritalin I suppose:confused:

doctor jones
03-09-2010, 01:07 AM
If all the people instead of holding up signs actually got together to discuss ways to improve society, I'm all for that.

That's wonderful and I encourage that too. But don't we do that a lot already? We don't have the power to make any changes though by talking--at least not anymore. It's the votes congress does or doesn't make everyday that have to be changed and we've been talking a lot (think Tea Party - CFL conferences) but still nothing has changed.

My best argument against this action of vandalism or violence for that matter is that the majority of Americans aren't ready for change and actually like the status quo. But if we ever have the majority, that feel the way we do, we'll have to take it with violence I fear.

Never will they voluntarily hand over their power willingly. Ron Paul above all knows this. I know he knows this by the way he talks about the Fed. He always says they will never end the Fed, it will be by the people rising up or by our rulers own self destruction.

catdd
03-09-2010, 07:53 AM
Officially no.
Unofficially yes.

+1

Bern
03-09-2010, 08:08 AM
What was that symbol on the right?

A penis.

Reminds me of this:

YouTube - Romans Go Home (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbI-fDzUJXI)

andrewh817
03-09-2010, 09:34 AM
Hey have you ever heard of the Boston Tea Party....little chaos and lots of vandalism and surprise those actions helped America become free:rolleyes:.
Too bad most people have forgotten, Too much Ritalin I suppose:confused:

Uh....... please don't bunch me in with the Ritalin users, that's completely ignorant and you know it. Also, I'd argue that the Tea Party back then was just a simple "flip-off" to the British monarchy.

What made the colonists free was winning the war by making it not cost-effective for the British to rule the colonies. The Tea Party itself didn't make anyone more free.

We kind of have to rule out war since the state is 10,000 x as armed as the average citizen and unlike the British government, doesn't have to travel a couple thousand miles to reach its tax livestock.

I look at the protests (not just tea parties, also protests against government spending) going on not just in America and I don't see the same type of people responsible for colonial protests. Sure there are some saying we need no government or a small government, but most of them nowadays are actually about preserving the status quo.

pcosmar
03-09-2010, 09:46 AM
Uh....... please don't bunch me in with the Ritalin users, that's completely ignorant and you know it. Also, I'd argue that the Tea Party back then was just a simple "flip-off" to the British monarchy.

What made the colonists free was winning the war by making it not cost-effective for the British to rule the colonies. The Tea Party itself didn't make anyone more free.

We kind of have to rule out war since the state is 10,000 x as armed as the average citizen and unlike the British government, doesn't have to travel a couple thousand miles to reach its tax livestock.

I look at the protests (not just tea parties, also protests against government spending) going on not just in America and I don't see the same type of people responsible for colonial protests. Sure there are some saying we need no government or a small government, but most of them nowadays are actually about preserving the status quo.

Bullshit.
First, a simple "flip-off" to the rulers?
The same can be said for this Graffiti. or the plane flying into the IRS building. or a thousand other acts that never make the news.
The anger is growing.

Add to that, at the time of the Revolution a very small minority (3% is commonly accepted) were in favor of it. About the same as voted against the Stasis Quo last time around.
That number is growing with the anger.

And better armed??

YouTube - Militia killing the "BORG" myth with numbers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae74oMMQ4ak)

And I have never used Ritalin either.

.

Razmear
03-09-2010, 10:29 AM
http://razmear.us/lobromans.png

Should have looked more like this when he was done, but it's a start :D

eb

disorderlyvision
03-09-2010, 12:59 PM
Gee, another thread where someone takes action and everybody whines about how it will make the "movement" look bad :rolleyes:

During the revolution 95% of this board would have been British loyalists...

"Damnit Sam Adams stop that!! You're making the movement look bad! We just need to get a couple people elected to Parliament and everything will change. Stop all of the shinanegans and let have a big donation day to the crown"

LibertyWorker
03-09-2010, 01:03 PM
in my opinion if you have time to paint it you have time to burn it!!!;)

New2Libertarianism
03-09-2010, 03:38 PM
in my opinion if you have time to paint it you have time to burn it!!!;)If someone does this, should they evacuate the building first, or is it their fault for working there?

"Every revolutionary
was once considered an enemy
Cointel undermined the life
Of Dr. Martin Luther King
Everywhere you look red white and blue
Everywhere you look they're fooling you."
-Anti-Flag

doctor jones
03-09-2010, 04:29 PM
Gee, another thread where someone takes action and everybody whines about how it will make the "movement" look bad :rolleyes:

During the revolution 95% of this board would have been British loyalists...

"Damnit Sam Adams stop that!! You're making the movement look bad! We just need to get a couple people elected to Parliament and everything will change. Stop all of the shinanegans and let have a big donation day to the crown"

I couldn't help but laugh out loud while reading this. Bravo.

Warrior_of_Freedom
03-09-2010, 04:50 PM
Gee, another thread where someone takes action and everybody whines about how it will make the "movement" look bad :rolleyes:

During the revolution 95% of this board would have been British loyalists...

"Damnit Sam Adams stop that!! You're making the movement look bad! We just need to get a couple people elected to Parliament and everything will change. Stop all of the shinanegans and let have a big donation day to the crown"

I lol'd

andrewh817
03-09-2010, 08:32 PM
And better armed??

YouTube - Militia killing the "BORG" myth with numbers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae74oMMQ4ak)
.

The video doesn't specify when the 30 day window was (my guess is it was during the Christmas season) or what the type of guns and ammo were being sold.

And even putting that video aside, what about chemical warfare? What are gas mask sales at? How trained are the people buying the weapons compared to the police and military? You have to ask these questions before jumping to conclusions that the citizens are better armed or able to win against the state in violent warfare.

pcosmar
03-09-2010, 11:21 PM
The video doesn't specify when the 30 day window was (my guess is it was during the Christmas season) or what the type of guns and ammo were being sold.

And even putting that video aside, what about chemical warfare? What are gas mask sales at? How trained are the people buying the weapons compared to the police and military? You have to ask these questions before jumping to conclusions that the citizens are better armed or able to win against the state in violent warfare.

You don't have a gas mask? :eek:
Here, this should help.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=Gas+masks&aq=f&aqi=g3g-s1g6&aql=&oq=&fp=3d121c88310e67e3

You do understand that a whole lot of Angry Americans, survivalists and militia are ex-military don't you?

j6p
03-10-2010, 07:14 AM
Hey if we had more people with balls to do this stuff then maybe they would wake up. You notice in england on youtube people going around vandalizing speeding camras. But posting stuff on telegraph poles is a waste of time and can be easily taken down.

doctor jones
03-10-2010, 02:20 PM
Someone I know went down there and said it's covered with a piece of cardboard right now with a police officer guarding it 24/7

Pericles
03-10-2010, 04:21 PM
You don't have a gas mask? :eek:
Here, this should help.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=Gas+masks&aq=f&aqi=g3g-s1g6&aql=&oq=&fp=3d121c88310e67e3 (http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=Gas+masks&aq=f&aqi=g3g-s1g6&aql=&oq=&fp=3d121c88310e67e3)

You do understand that a whole lot of Angry Americans, survivalists and militia are ex-military don't you?

And I had the best training the US Army could afford.

andrewh817
03-12-2010, 09:35 AM
You don't have a gas mask? :eek:
Here, this should help.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=Gas+masks&aq=f&aqi=g3g-s1g6&aql=&oq=&fp=3d121c88310e67e3

You do understand that a whole lot of Angry Americans, survivalists and militia are ex-military don't you?

I never said there weren't a lot of people with those feelings. I said it's ridiculous to call the citizens more armed (or better armed) than the government.

nandnor
03-12-2010, 10:52 AM
dunno why ya'll suddenly got so defensive of the state..? the fed has financed billions of dollars and wars that have led millions of men and civilians to their deaths, and punishing it by a little drawing is condonable?