$7 a gallon Gas Hike: Coming Soon!

[BamaFanNKy]

$7 a gal. gas?!? dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/02/fuel-taxes-must-rise-harvard-researchers-say/

[FrankRep]

Thank you to Obama and the Copenhagen Accord.



Copenhagen Accord Still Threatens U.S. Economy
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/tech-mainmenu-30/environment/2882-copenhagen-accord-still-threatens-us-economy

Socialist International in Copenhagen: "Birth of Global Governance"
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/world-mainmenu-26/europe-mainmenu-35/2714-socialist-international-in-copenhagen-qbirth-of-global-governanceq

Cheers and Jeers at Copenhagen’s Climate Conference
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/world-mainmenu-26/europe-mainmenu-35/2674-cheers-and-jeers-at-copenhagens-climate-conference

Climate “Teacup Tempest”?
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/tech-mainmenu-30/environment/2589-climate-teacup-tempest

[BamaFanNKy]

Yep. I know some C-Store owners who hate this with a passion.

[RM918]

Amusingly, gas prices are what's going to finally force people to give a damn. Let them come, I say. People don't care that their government is using the money they take from them to kill hundreds of thousands of Middle-Easterners for no good reason, or running the country into the ground with an astronomical debt. No big deal.

7 bucks a gallon, though?! FUCK THIS!

I honestly think a majority of the country deserves the roof to fall on them.

[DapperDan]

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8812/1zev22bjpg.gif

I can only imagine how angry people will be if it truly comes to 7.00 numerically at the pump interface.

[BenIsForRon]

Gas is already $7 a gallon when you factor in all the subsidies and military spending.

[DjLoTi]

I don't drive so I'm not worried. Imagine the national outrage and the economic reverberations of $7 gas. Sure would be interesting to watch

[mczerone]

This tax, if true, isn't about cutting emissions anymore that the cigarette taxes are about health.

One phrase explains it: inelastic demand curve.

Some advisers know that they can do whatever they want with the prices of some commodities, people will still need to buy them. Contrast this potential tax to a tax on beef (which could be excused as a way to cut greenhouse gas (methane) emissions): triple the price of beef, and you'd just have a ton more poultry, fish, and veggie eaters. Triple the price of gas and people just have to deal with it.

This could also be the trigger for hyperinflation, as gas prices are imputed to nearly every consumer good on the market for production and delivery. Triple the price of gas and your groceries will suddenly cost 3 times as much, if not more. This will result in the call for more "stimulus" so that consumers can afford to live, and printing the difference will be the end of the dollar.

And that's my optimistic prediction.

[dean.engelhardt]

Look of the bright side. Maybe we'll stop sending $25B/month to OPEC and start using our own resourses.

[RCA]

The question is when. $4 a gallon 50 years ago would also have caused rioting. Not today.

[mczerone]

Look of the bright side. Maybe we'll stop sending $25B/month to OPEC and start using our own resourses.

Whose resources? I'd rather the govt just get out of the way and let people take ownership of these "protected" reserves of oil: they'll have incentive to leave as much nature in tact as possible, and to preserve the resource for long-run optimization. The govt being in control leaves only two options: don't do anything, or rape the land immediately for instant gratification.

The whole Anwar and sea-shelf discussions are missing the point: to drill or not to drill isn't the question.

[tmosley]

I would hardly call the supply curve for gas inelastic. When gas got above $3, the trucking industry in America basically shut down. We weren't far away from a real crisis in terms of empty shelves. The same could easily happen again, only this time it won't be speculation driving up the price, so there will be no sudden reversal.

[andrewh817]

The question is when. $4 a gallon 50 years ago would also have caused rioting. Not today.

True but $4 back then was worth SO much more than $4 today. So that situation was extremely different than today's.

[FrankRep]

The question is when. $4 a gallon 50 years ago would also have caused rioting. Not today.

That depends on the government. :(

[Pepsi]

Yes and on top of that they want to tax for every mile you drive.

[MelissaWV]

Thank goodness I don't own a vehicle.

Oh, and people have been saying this for quite some time. It's becoming like the "End is Nigh" guy. Eventually, someone is going to be right about it, but it won't really be through some stroke of genius. There is $7/gallon (equivalent) gas in other places around the world, and people deal with it in their own ways. I think that's part of the "rationale" behind all of this, but it won't work in the good ole USA. People commute a lot in this culture, and most cities do not have even mediocre mass transit, let alone efficient means to get to work without driving long distances on clogged roadways. We drive, and we love it. You are not going to see a flood of people trading in their cars for bicycles, and if history is any indication you'll just see a lot of griping, with few real targets for the angst. Then the Government will swoop in and harness that angst, using it to rally support for whatever the pet project du jour is.

[dgr]

It may not all be in the "green" taxes. The 21st Century Transportation and "pay go" were discussed in 2007 meeting. The plan calls for 60 to 80 cents a gallon additional gas tax to be split between the state and feds for all this upcoming construction

[andrewh817]

You are not going to see a flood of people trading in their cars for bicycles, and if history is any indication you'll just see a lot of griping, with few real targets for the angst.

Oh, don't get me wrong there will be griping APLENTY, but I think you're wrong in saying people won't switch to bicycles. Unless you work and live in two different cities the gas money you spend getting to work is a complete waste and I'm already seeing more and more people bike to work in my area.

Now this next statement is going to depend on the city you live in and how the roads are set up, but I'm fairly convinced that if you have a good bike and are fairly physically fit, you can get to work close to as fast as a car will get you there (unless you take the freeway). A lot of people don't even give this idea a chance...... but it's a great way to not only a great way to reduce your budget but it's fun and helps you get exercise.

[Jeros]

This tax, if true, isn't about cutting emissions anymore that the cigarette taxes are about health.

One phrase explains it: inelastic demand curve.

Some advisers know that they can do whatever they want with the prices of some commodities, people will still need to buy them. Contrast this potential tax to a tax on beef (which could be excused as a way to cut greenhouse gas (methane) emissions): triple the price of beef, and you'd just have a ton more poultry, fish, and veggie eaters. Triple the price of gas and people just have to deal with it.

This could also be the trigger for hyperinflation, as gas prices are imputed to nearly every consumer good on the market for production and delivery. Triple the price of gas and your groceries will suddenly cost 3 times as much, if not more. This will result in the call for more "stimulus" so that consumers can afford to live, and printing the difference will be the end of the dollar.

And that's my optimistic prediction.

Taxing the inelastic has been their strategy ever since Mr. Reagon's buddy Art Laffer indirectly excused excessive taxation through the neat little concept called the Laffer curve. Basically, all products have an ideal point were tax revenues are maximized. If taxes are raised beyond that point, revenues start to fall. If taxes are lowered below that point, revenues fall.

This is why it is more or less illegal to brew your own alcohol. The tax revenues would plummet if there were no restrictions.

Ahhhhh. The wonders of efficient government! Or as the great Mogambo Guru would say, weeeeee!

http://politicalbooks.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/laffer-curve1.jpg

[TortoiseDream]

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8812/1zev22bjpg.gif

I can only imagine how angry people will be if it truly comes to 7.00 numerically at the pump interface.

lol yup

[Mike4Freedom]

There is a silver lining to a total hyperinflationary crash. Maybe people will wake up. People will have to take thier heads out of the sand and focus on survival. Something we have gotten away from.

No more watching american idol. No more going out for dinner and drinks. It time to get a rifle and hunt your food. Grow your own garden.

Also maybe time to stop getting useless animals and get animals that can help you, like chickens or even a good guard dog.

This is the future that we could possible face. What I stated might be one of the good things.

No more hallmark cards on every event that happens. No more thank you cards. No more gifts. No more baby showers.

[micahnelson]

The report says that in order to reduce emissions, a gallon of gas would have to cost 7 dollars.

Ok, so what? I agree with that sliver of information.

Coming soon is an intentionally inflammatory headline and is misleading, as this is the result of an accurate study- not a proposed bill.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

Wth? Some members are saying "I don't drive, so I'm not worried" If gas doubles in price a gallon, then everything in the supermarket, etc, anything that has to be delivered via trucks blablabla will also go up in price.

[DapperDan]

Wth? Some members are saying "I don't drive, so I'm not worried" If gas doubles in price a gallon, then everything in the supermarket, etc, anything that has to be delivered via trucks blablabla will also go up in price.

This.

[Jeros]

Wth? Some members are saying "I don't drive, so I'm not worried" If gas doubles in price a gallon, then everything in the supermarket, etc, anything that has to be delivered via trucks blablabla will also go up in price.

I not worried because accurate transportation cost will promote localism, community bonds, and decentralization. People will grow more food, buy more food locally, and be more independent of government subsidies for energy and food.

Not that I agree with the method. The government allows cheap energy and food prices at the pump and super market though subsidies, and than they tax the hell out of gasoline and drive the price of both back up. They probably cancel each other out, with the only effect being a huge useless bureaucracy! There is sure to be unintended consequences. There would also be consequences of removing subsidies.

Either way, I am not too worried about it. Time to make some homebrew fuel. :D

[BamaFanNKy]

I not worried because accurate transportation cost will promote localism, community bonds, and decentralization. People will grow more food, buy more food locally, and be more independent of government subsidies for energy and food.

Not that I agree with the method. The government allows cheap energy and food prices at the pump and super market though subsidies, and than they tax the hell out of gasoline and drive the price of both back up. They probably cancel each other out, with the only effect being a huge useless bureaucracy! There is sure to be unintended consequences. There would also be consequences of removing subsidies.

Either way, I am not too worried about it. Time to make some homebrew fuel. :D

"I'M not worried about government over reach and being out of control if it doesn't affect me."

[MelissaWV]

Wth? Some members are saying "I don't drive, so I'm not worried" If gas doubles in price a gallon, then everything in the supermarket, etc, anything that has to be delivered via trucks blablabla will also go up in price.

I didn't say I "wasn't worried." I said I'm glad I don't own a vehicle. I don't really use a lot of trucked-in items, either. That said, I'm not stupid enough to think that it wouldn't find some way to ooze into my life if I were to stay in the US that long.

* * *

Average US commute is usually placed somewhere in the realm of 15-16 miles.

For the sake of simplicity, the average bicycle speed is around 15-16 mph (some faster, some slower, but again... for the sake of simplicity).

The average commute time for that 15-16 miles is 26 minutes or so.

The average commute time by bicycle, assuming you were going that 15-16 mph the entire time (which you won't be), would be an hour. You forgot to factor in climate when you talked about whether or not people would trade in their cars for bikes. When it's over 100 degrees outside, and humid, with a high chance of rain in the afternoon... people don't really like to bike to work. When it's freezing, snowy, and there's a high chance of ice... people don't really like to bike to work. When it's raining all day... people don't really like to bike to work. When they work somewhere that requires the transportation of equipment to and from work with them everyday (laptop, briefcase, suit jacket, dress shoes)... people don't really like to bike to work.

Personally? It takes me about 40-60 minutes to get to work, depending on the traffic, in my I-don't-own-it vehicle. This will be moot in May, when I switch to telecommuting full time, but for now neither I nor any of the people I'm on the major highways and interstates with are likely to take up their bicycles anytime soon. Bicycles would also mean taking "bike safe" routes to work and back, which would greatly extend the commute, but since we're speaking in generic terms I didn't include that.

Add in the "culture of driving" in the US, and I still stand by my assertion that the bulk of the populace will not suddenly switch to biking to work, or for that matter to get groceries, take their kids places, take roadtrips, etc.. :(

[BamaFanNKy]

Our country was set up to use automobiles and Trains are a false premise as well:
YouTube - 3 Reasons Why Obama's High-Speed Rail Will Go Nowhere Fast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xyUg4J7Sf8)

[dean.engelhardt]

Whose resources? I'd rather the govt just get out of the way and let people take ownership of these "protected" reserves of oil: they'll have incentive to leave as much nature in tact as possible, and to preserve the resource for long-run optimization. The govt being in control leaves only two options: don't do anything, or rape the land immediately for instant gratification.

The whole Anwar and sea-shelf discussions are missing the point: to drill or not to drill isn't the question.

That would be U.S. resources, made available to the us through the free market system. Not U.S. government resourses.

Nothing would make me happier than seeing the government tax this import out of the marketplace while the free market comes up with better/cheaper/cleaner solutions. The Saudie prince has enough of our money.

Of course this will not happen because the U.S. Government's policy toward engery is controlled by the foreign oil lobby. This is why you can only buy a CNG car in 2 out of 50 states.

[KCIndy]

I don't really use a lot of trucked-in items, either.


What? No food or groceries? No toilet paper? No clothes?? :eek:

Hate to tell ya, but if you use it, a truck has brought it.

:)

[MelissaWV]

What? No food or groceries? No toilet paper? No clothes?? :eek:

Hate to tell ya, but if you use it, a truck has brought it.

:)

If you look for local items, you can find them in a lot of places. You can, in fact, go to "you pick 'em" type stands in a lot of the country and get fresh produce, or better yet grow some of your own. Herbs really do taste delicious when you pluck the leaves right off the plants you grow yourself. Did I say "no" trucked-in items? Of course not. Did I say I wouldn't be impacted? Not at all. I said I don't use a lot of trucked-in items. I make as much food myself as I can manage, and you'd be surprised how few ingredients one actually needs to make a variety of delicious things :D

Hate to tell ya, but I don't shop/eat like you do :p

[Jeros]

"I'M not worried about government over reach and being out of control if it doesn't affect me."

I didn't say anything of the sorts. I actually implied the opposite. Please read entire sentences.

[ctiger2]

I just wish the dollar would collapse already. I'm tired of waiting and I want to know what I'm going to have to deal with. The uncertainty is really getting to me.

[KCIndy]

If you look for local items, you can find them in a lot of places. You can, in fact, go to "you pick 'em" type stands in a lot of the country and get fresh produce, or better yet grow some of your own. Herbs really do taste delicious when you pluck the leaves right off the plants you grow yourself. Did I say "no" trucked-in items? Of course not. Did I say I wouldn't be impacted? Not at all. I said I don't use a lot of trucked-in items. I make as much food myself as I can manage, and you'd be surprised how few ingredients one actually needs to make a variety of delicious things :D

Hate to tell ya, but I don't shop/eat like you do :p


Melissa, I'm just kidding with you! :)

But I *would* like to know where I can find some "pick it yourself" toilet paper. :D

PS - leaves don't count!!

[MelissaWV]

Melissa, I'm just kidding with you! :)

But I *would* like to know where I can find some "pick it yourself" toilet paper. :D

lol That is one area where I shall never be eco-friendly. That recycled toilet paper is... rough (and it's trucked-in anyhow). I'm a Charmin gal. Truck it in, fly it in, I don't care. I'll pay the premium for not having to wipe with the equivalent of sandpaper.

[KCIndy]

lol That is one area where I shall never be eco-friendly. That recycled toilet paper is... rough (and it's trucked-in anyhow). I'm a Charmin gal. Truck it in, fly it in, I don't care. I'll pay the premium for not having to wipe with the equivalent of sandpaper.

*WHEW!*

No leaves!

:)

[Jeros]

Our country was set up to use automobiles and Trains are a false premise as well:
YouTube - 3 Reasons Why Obama's High-Speed Rail Will Go Nowhere Fast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xyUg4J7Sf8)

Did god set up America to run on automobiles? Does it have certain geographical characteristics that lend themselves to automobile travel as to other forms of transportation?

That answer is of course no. The market place will decide the most cost efficient method of moving goods and services from one area to another. At the present time, energy and road construction are heavily subsidized, so using automobibiles for travel and and tractor trucks for cargo makes economic sense for market participants. If the government took there dirty hands out of the issue, consumer and producer prices for transportation would go way up. If the interstate highway system was never socialized into existence, rails would have been much more competitive. In an environment of high energy prices, rails would be much more competitive. If the government didn't encourage energy consumption, we might have even pushed the peak oil phenomenon out a few decades.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a huge car buff. I do custom builds as a hobby. That is why I'm planning on brewing my own fuel, but I in under no impressions that our current state of transportation markets has anything to do with freedom.

[Danke]

*WHEW!*

No leaves!

:)

Who needs toilet paper?


YouTube - Japanese Toilet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIsmiW7bMsQ&feature=channel)

[dean.engelhardt]

Did god set up America to run on automobiles? Does it have certain geographical characteristics that lend themselves to automobile travel as to other forms of transportation?

That answer is of course no. The market place will decide the most cost efficient method of moving goods and services from one area to another. At the present time, energy and road construction are heavily subsidized, so using automobibiles for travel and and tractor trucks for cargo makes economic sense for market participants. If the government took there dirty hands out of the issue, consumer and producer prices for transportation would go way up. If the interstate highway system was never socialized into existence, rails would have been much more competitive. In an environment of high energy prices, rails would be much more competitive. If the government didn't encourage energy consumption, we might have even pushed the peak oil phenomenon out a few decades.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a huge car buff. I do custom builds as a hobby. That is why I'm planning on brewing my own fuel, but I in under no impressions that our current state of transportation markets has anything to do with freedom.


Stop making so much sense! Can't you see there is a serious toilet paper discussion in progress.

[KCIndy]

Who needs toilet paper?


Obviously not the Japanese.

On the other hand, they don't have to worry about dealing with the after effects of a $12.99 "All You Can Eat" night at Ye Olde Rib House... :eek:

[Todd]

Who needs toilet paper?


YouTube - Japanese Toilet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIsmiW7bMsQ&feature=channel)

Darn...

I was hoping for a demonstration.

[phill4paul]

Who needs toilet paper?


YouTube - Japanese Toilet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIsmiW7bMsQ&feature=channel)

LOl, Danke I actually used one of these over in Japan back in '85. Strange to say the least and I still used toilet paper after the cycle just because it was so bizarre.
I also worried about what would happen if there was a water hammer and increase in pressure during the wash cycle.:eek:

[unklejman]

1. Legalize hemp farming
2. Buy a deisel powered car.
3. ??????
4. profit!

[andrewh817]

The average commute time by bicycle, assuming you were going that 15-16 mph the entire time (which you won't be), would be an hour. You forgot to factor in climate when you talked about whether or not people would trade in their cars for bikes. When it's over 100 degrees outside, and humid, with a high chance of rain in the afternoon... people don't really like to bike to work. When it's freezing, snowy, and there's a high chance of ice... people don't really like to bike to work. When it's raining all day... people don't really like to bike to work. When they work somewhere that requires the transportation of equipment to and from work with them everyday (laptop, briefcase, suit jacket, dress shoes)... people don't really like to bike to work.

Add in the "culture of driving" in the US, and I still stand by my assertion that the bulk of the populace will not suddenly switch to biking to work, or for that matter to get groceries, take their kids places, take roadtrips, etc.. :(

Respectfully, I think you're underestimating the vastness of what's going to hit this country, especially in California which is where I live. You say that most of the populace isn't going to switch and that may be true.......... until the point when people are dipping into their savings accounts just to get gas for work and back.

You mention getting groceries, taking their kids places, and taking roadtrips. You're going to see all three of these things become less and less common, and I'm already starting to see the second two in my area decline.

[EndDaFed]

I normally wouldn't approve of such things, but I think it's needed considering the fossil energy shit storm that is just around the corner.

http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X1342&site=fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.netl.doe.gov%2Fpublications%2 Fothers%2Fpdf%2FOil_Peaking_NETL.pdf

Here is a ton more information about how fucked we are in terms of cheap energy in the coming years.

http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/peak-oil/

Not only has global oil production peaked in March of 2005, but natural gas (2020), and coal (2025) will do the same in the not so distant future. It looks like global oil production this year will finally start to decline. We have been on a plateau of sorts for the past five or so years.

[Jeros]

Respectfully, I think you're underestimating the vastness of what's going to hit this country, especially in California which is where I live. You say that most of the populace isn't going to switch and that may be true.......... until the point when people are dipping into their savings accounts just to get gas for work and back.

You mention getting groceries, taking their kids places, and taking roadtrips. You're going to see all three of these things become less and less common, and I'm already starting to see the second two in my area decline.

That is true, and though I am making an assumption about what you believe by pointing this out, the scenario you describe likely wont be averted no matter what federal policy is or isn't implemented, so there is no reason to worry about it. It is just another factor that should be prepared for. Of course everything out of Washington is silly, counterproductive, and politically motivated. Lets just add this tax to the list.

The reason I point this out is because many people are complaining that a bunch of us don't care too much about the possibility of a giant gas tax because it doesn't affect us, but it isn't so much that it doesn't affect us, but that it doesn't change the overall economic outcomes all that much. Its just another edict of a dying giant. The most prudent action a person could take is to just move out of the way as not to get crushed as the giant falls.

[Wolverine302]

Growing your own garden is going to be rough when its 15º outside. . .
The next step would be to stock up on canned foods.

[MelissaWV]

Respectfully, I think you're underestimating the vastness of what's going to hit this country, especially in California which is where I live. You say that most of the populace isn't going to switch and that may be true.......... until the point when people are dipping into their savings accounts just to get gas for work and back.

You mention getting groceries, taking their kids places, and taking roadtrips. You're going to see all three of these things become less and less common, and I'm already starting to see the second two in my area decline.

Maybe they're home schooling, which would be more awesome for everyone. :D If people are dipping into their savings for gas, they have issues, but you are right. There are too many folks who'd rather do that than give up their gizmo du jour. Perhaps people will ride a bike an hour each way to work in the Florida/Arizona/New York/Louisiana (etc.) weather and risk their lives on non-bike-friendly routes... but somehow I still doubt it. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Liberty Star]

Can't put a price tag on freedom. In the end, G-d will bless those who start wars..