US unveils plan to restore Great Lakes

[disorderlyvision]

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2010/02/22/us_unveils_plan_to_restore_great_lakes/


The Obama administration has developed a five-year blueprint forrescuing the Great Lakes, a sprawling ecosystem plagued by toxiccontamination, shrinking wildlife habitat and invasive species. Theplan envisions spending more than $2.2 billion for long-awaitedrepairs after a century of damage to the lakes, which hold 20 percentof the world's fresh water. Lisa Jackson, head of the EnvironmentalProtection Agency, presented the plan at a conference yesterday inWashington. ... Among the goals is a 'zero tolerance policy' towardfuture invasions by foreign species, including the Asian carp, a huge,ravenous fish that has overrun portions of the Mississippi Riversystem and is threatening to enter Lake Michigan

[wgadget]

All I could think of was "HOW MUCH?"

Thanks for bolding it for me.

[coyote_sprit]

Why are humans allowed to invade an ecosystem but fish aren't? :p

On a side note, IIRC I saw a guy catch an Asian carp in Mongolia on the National Geographic station (what a surprise they actually showed national geography), those things are fucking huge. Could be thinking of the Taimen though.

[John E]

One of the few things I do approve of. A lot of our issues come from a lack of investment, in ourselves such as education, our economic development and our environment.

[MelissaWV]

One of the few things I do approve of. A lot of our issues come from a lack of investment, in ourselves such as education, our economic development and our environment.

Right, but a lot of the invasive species (nationally) come from prior attempts at... investment. "Oh we have a problem with species A. Species B is species A's natural enemy! Let's import a whole bunch of Species B." *time passes* "Oh crap! Species B is not limiting itself to species A as far as diet, and is also reproducing like gangbusters! Now we have lower levels of Species C, D, E, and F, and the place is almost entirely overrun with Species B."

[John E]

I agree ...

[pcosmar]

How many that are for this have any actual knowledge of the Great Lakes?
How many grew up on them?

And how is this tied to Agenda 21 water management issues?

As for me, I grew up on Lime Island in the St. Mary's river. My Father refueled lake freighters, My brother was a deckhand. I was swimming in it in 1961, (at 4 yrs old), and fishing a couple years later.

I remember when Lake Erie was dead, and caught fire. I remember it being cleaned up and is now a vibrant eco-system.
I am also reminded of efforts to relocate the water resources elsewhere. That is being and will be fought.
I live here. :cool:

http://www.limeisland.com/historyclips.htm
The clips on this page are from my family home movies. ( Mom donated them)

[youngbuck]

"zero tolerance policy"

It sounds bad every time I hear it.

[pcosmar]

"zero tolerance policy"

It sounds bad every time I hear it.
YUP.
and what about this.
http://www.great-lakes.net/envt/flora-fauna/invasive/lamprey.html

Sea lamprey (Petromyzon marinus) are predaceous, eel-like fish native to the coastal regions of both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. They entered the Great Lakes through the Welland Canal about 1921. They contributed greatly to the decline of whitefish and lake trout in the Great Lakes. Since 1956, the governments of the United States and Canada, working jointly through the Great Lakes Fishery Commission, have implemented a successful sea lamprey control program.


Since 1956

And it is nothing new.

YouTube - Agenda 21 U.N. To Steal Our Water (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCkGyMGovqg&feature=related)

[BenIsForRon]

I don't know much about this proposed law, but I do agree that there should be laws regarding the importation of invasive species.

If you guys can come up with a realistic free-market alternative to legislation, I'm all ears.

Keep in mind these things are stored in ballast water, these boats aren't bringing them in on purpose. They certainly aren't taking any steps to mitigate it though.

[pcosmar]

I don't know much about this proposed law, but I do agree that there should be laws regarding the importation of invasive species.

If you guys can come up with a realistic free-market alternative to legislation, I'm all ears.

Keep in mind these things are stored in ballast water, these boats aren't bringing them in on purpose. They certainly aren't taking any steps to mitigate it though.

Before you get too full of shit, do you have any idea what you are talking about?
Have you looked at a map?
Can you show me the boats that are coming from the Mississippi river into the Great Lakes?

Sea Lampreys came down the St. Laurence Seaway. The Carp,,,? We have carp here, not sure that there has ever been a problem with the other variety. I suspect that it is more folks justifying or acquiring Grant Money.

[fletcher]

One of the few things I do approve of. A lot of our issues come from a lack of investment, in ourselves such as education, our economic development and our environment.

Lack of investment in education? The government spends around 3 times as much per kid today as it did a few decades ago, with absolutely no improvement in test scores. You can't fix problems by throwing money at them.

[mediahasyou]

if a lake, river, or part of a ocean could be owned, there would be no pollution problem.

[pcosmar]

Lack of investment in education? The government spends around 3 times as much per kid today as it did a few decades ago, with absolutely no improvement in test scores. You can't fix problems by throwing money at them.

I believe he meant lack of investment in Propaganda.

I am fighting to keep UN mandated meters of my private well.
This shit stems from the same agenda.

[mediahasyou]

Before the government starts to restore the Great Lakes, the government should stop polluting the Great Lakes: http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/29290959.html

The government should give up its human waste monopoly because of the horrible job the government has done. Then a decent company has the opportunity to do the job well and profit.

[erowe1]

If you guys can come up with a realistic free-market alternative to legislation, I'm all ears.


Let it happen. Let the ecosystem adjust however it will adjust.

[Jeros]

Before you get too full of shit, do you have any idea what you are talking about?
Have you looked at a map?
Can you show me the boats that are coming from the Mississippi river into the Great Lakes?

Sea Lampreys came down the St. Laurence Seaway. The Carp,,,? We have carp here, not sure that there has ever been a problem with the other variety. I suspect that it is more folks justifying or acquiring Grant Money.

Why say somebody is full of shit for not knowing what they are talking about, and then respond to them with an "I suspect" which is just another way of saying "I may be full of shit, but I am not sure?" He also asked for free market alternatives. Do you have any concrete information regarding the topic besides empirical evidence?

[erowe1]

Before you get too full of shit, do you have any idea what you are talking about?
Have you looked at a map?
Can you show me the boats that are coming from the Mississippi river into the Great Lakes?

Sea Lampreys came down the St. Laurence Seaway. The Carp,,,? We have carp here, not sure that there has ever been a problem with the other variety. I suspect that it is more folks justifying or acquiring Grant Money.

I'm pretty sure the Zebra Mussels did come in ballast water.

[BenIsForRon]

Before you get too full of shit, do you have any idea what you are talking about?
Have you looked at a map?
Can you show me the boats that are coming from the Mississippi river into the Great Lakes?

Sea Lampreys came down the St. Laurence Seaway. The Carp,,,? We have carp here, not sure that there has ever been a problem with the other variety. I suspect that it is more folks justifying or acquiring Grant Money.

Do carp not live in the Erie canal? If they don't, many other invasive species can be brought in that way.

[Jeros]

Lack of investment in education? The government spends around 3 times as much per kid today as it did a few decades ago, with absolutely no improvement in test scores. You can't fix problems by throwing money at them.

"You cant fix problems simply by throwing money at them" would be more accurate, as all solutions to all problems have opportunity cost, and therefor require money. If a problem didn't require time/money/wealth/work (which, to a productive person, are different forms of the same thing) it wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

[pcosmar]

http://www.epa.gov/glnpo/p2/bnsintro.html

The Strategy reaffirms the two countries’ commitment to the sound management of chemicals, as stated in Agenda 21: A Global Action Plan for the 21st Century and adopted at the 1992 United Nations Conference on Environment and Development. The Strategy will also be guided by the principles articulated by the International Joint Commission’ s Virtual Elimination Task Force in the Seventh Biennial Report on Great Lakes Water Quality.

[erowe1]

"You cant fix problems simply by throwing money at them" would be more accurate, as all solutions to all problems have opportunity cost, and therefor require money. If a problem didn't require time/money/wealth/work (which, to a productive person, are different forms of the same thing) it wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

Hogwash. If every state, local, and federal government cuts its educational budget all the way down to $0/year, effective immediately, the state of education in America would dramatically improve.

[BenIsForRon]

http://www.epa.gov/glnpo/p2/bnsintro.html
The Strategy reaffirms the two countries’ commitment to the sound management of chemicals, as stated in Agenda 21: A Global Action Plan for the 21st Century and adopted at the 1992 United Nations Conference on Environment and Development. The Strategy will also be guided by the principles articulated by the International Joint Commission’ s Virtual Elimination Task Force in the Seventh Biennial Report on Great Lakes Water Quality.

Agenda 21 is a double edged sword. It can be used for good in situations where governments are allowing their land to be polluted by corporations or the government themselves. Because these governments signed on to it, they can be shown as hypocritical in these situations.

For example, here is one of the good passages:


4.3. Poverty and environmental degradation are closely interrelated. While poverty results in certain kinds of environmental stress, the major cause of the continued deterioration of the global environment is the unsustainable pattern of consumption and production, particularly in industrialized countries, which is a matter of grave concern, aggravating poverty and imbalances.

At the same time, you have crap like this:


conomic policies of individual countries and international economic relations both have great relevance to sustainable development. The reactivation and acceleration of development requires both a dynamic and a supportive international economic environment and determined policies at the national level. It will be frustrated in the absence of either of these requirements. A supportive external economic environment is crucial. The development process will not gather momentum if the global economy lacks dynamism and stability and is beset with uncertainties.

So Agenda 21 in itself is a hypocritical program, but real NGO's and citizen action groups did their message into it, which is good.

[Dr.3D]

This entire thing sounds like the others of the past. When the government gets involved, and especially the UN, the liberties of the people usually suffer.

I remember when I could go camping on a piece of land near Empire Michigan and as a family we did so every year, until the government took it over and now nobody can enjoy the pristine nature of the area, because the government ran the road all of the way to the lake and ruined the camping area. Now after 50 years of camping there, no one can camp there anymore. I wish my children could have experienced the seclusion and solitude of camping in that area.

[2young2vote]

Oh well. I just hope those asian things don't get in. Those things will probably be more destructive to the lakes than the government (but probably a heck of a lot less expensive).

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

"Five year plan" -- Sounds eerily similar, to something else, doesn't it?

[amy31416]

I did quite a bit of research on heavy metal content in various parts of Lake Erie, and it was looking good in the late 90's. We actually used the zebra mussels as a medium to determine the levels of metals like mercury, lead, arsenic, etc. and could use that to extrapolate the potential levels in fish that people at and for forensics as to the likely sources of the metals. It was pretty awesome--we gathered the mussels from various locations, dried them out, then dissolved their shells in a boiling mix of concentrated hydrochloric and sulfuric acid.

That particular invasive species at least serves a purpose scientifically and as a source of food for the fish. The biggest issue with the zebra mussels is that the heavy metals would normally sink to the bottom of the lake and stay there, the mussels absorb it/consume it and the metals make their way back up the food chain when fish eat them.

My initial response is that this is probably unnecessary and that I don't trust the government to do the right thing or to address actual causes of bacterial and heavy metal contamination. We'll probably get a band-aid while the most of the money will go to BS.

[Jeros]

Hogwash. If every state, local, and federal government cuts its educational budget all the way down to $0/year, effective immediately, the state of education in America would dramatically improve.

That has nothing to do with disproving what I said.

[Original_Intent]

Green jobs!

[Bruno]

Right, but a lot of the invasive species (nationally) come from prior attempts at... investment. "Oh we have a problem with species A. Species B is species A's natural enemy! Let's import a whole bunch of Species B." *time passes* "Oh crap! Species B is not limiting itself to species A as far as diet, and is also reproducing like gangbusters! Now we have lower levels of Species C, D, E, and F, and the place is almost entirely overrun with Species B."

Like this little pest that was introduced in our country to combat soybean aphids in the 80's, and has taken over the Heartland. They bit. They stink. They invade your house. They are a total nuisance.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2nhl4km.jpg

http://www.epestsupply.com/asian_beetles.html

[BenIsForRon]

Introduction of pest management insects doesn't always go bad, there just has to be exhaustive research to ensure that no problems will arise. The spring tiphia wasp was introduced to fight Japanese Beetle, and so far they're not interfering in other areas. So if in a hundred years, they're staying in that niche, I guess we can put that one in the win column.

So yeah, there is no simple answer for any of these kinds of problems.

[Bruno]

Introduction of pest management insects doesn't always go bad, there just has to be exhaustive research to ensure that no problems will arise. The spring tiphia wasp was introduced to fight Japanese Beetle, and so far they're not interfering in other areas. So if in a hundred years, they're staying in that niche, I guess we can put that one in the win column.
So yeah, there is no simple answer for any of these kinds of problems.

You mean in the "loss then wait a really long time then finally win" column. One hundred years of them invading homes and biting people every fall is a long way from a win.

[BenIsForRon]

You mean in the "loss then wait a really long time then finally win" column. One hundred years of them invading homes and biting people every fall is a long way from a win.

I haven't heard of the spring tiphia invading homes. Not any more than any other flying insect at least.

[MN Patriot]

How many that are for this have any actual knowledge of the Great Lakes?
How many grew up on them?

And how is this tied to Agenda 21 water management issues?

As for me, I grew up on Lime Island in the St. Mary's river. My Father refueled lake freighters, My brother was a deckhand. I was swimming in it in 1961, (at 4 yrs old), and fishing a couple years later.

I remember when Lake Erie was dead, and caught fire. I remember it being cleaned up and is now a vibrant eco-system.
I am also reminded of efforts to relocate the water resources elsewhere. That is being and will be fought.
I live here. :cool:

http://www.limeisland.com/historyclips.htm
The clips on this page are from my family home movies. ( Mom donated them)

I like the old snowmobile clip. Quite the beast. We have a vintage snowmobile run and one or two of these old fellows show up.

The leftists are always saying how we are polluting the environment, but they are living in the past when rivers and lakes were used as dumping grounds. We HAVE cleaned up our mess, and hopefully have learned to be more careful. Today the worst polluters are socialist countries, but liberals never complain about them.

[BenIsForRon]

I like the old snowmobile clip. Quite the beast. We have a vintage snowmobile run and one or two of these old fellows show up.

The leftists are always saying how we are polluting the environment, but they are living in the past when rivers and lakes were used as dumping grounds. We HAVE cleaned up our mess, and hopefully have learned to be more careful. Today the worst polluters are socialist countries, but liberals never complain about them.

I agree that socialist countries are among the worst offenders, but you are deluding yourself if you think we don't have serious problems with pollution in this country.

[mczerone]

A few observations:

(1) "The US" is central to Washington D.C., and shouldn't be using national funds for regional projects, however "compelling".

(2) "The US" does not even have exclusive Statist claim to the Great Lakes: 4 of them are half-Canadian.

(3) If they really wanted to help re-vitalization efforts, they could stop collecting taxes from individuals who have a natural interest in preserving their livelihood.

(4) The Great Lakes and Rivers of Michigan are cleaner now than anytime in the past 50 years, and the only new "threat" is this Asian Carp that happens to be moving through Chicago.

(5) $2.2 Billion dollars is at once a huge amount to be spending right now, and an insignificant amount to be spending to make any impact on a system as vast as the Great Lakes.

This whole operation is just a front to funnel money to Chicago Politicians, and won't live up to even a few of the stated goals.