PDA

View Full Version : BEST post about AGW(global warming) and the Left I have read thus far, by R.S. McCain




Cowlesy
02-12-2010, 08:03 PM
I encourage all of you to read the entire post, and let us discuss.

http://theothermccain.com/2010/02/12/evolution-anthropogenic-global-warming-and-other-non-falsifiable-theories/

Mr. McCain included one quote about the French Revolution from Edmund Burke, that really hit home.


We are not the converts of Rousseau; we are not the disciples of Voltaire; Helvetius has made no progress among us. Atheists are not our preachers; madmen are not our lawgivers. We know that we have made no discoveries, and we think that no discoveries are to be made, in morality, nor many in the great principles of government, nor in the ideas of liberty, which were understood long before we were born, altogether as well as they will be after the grave has heaped its mould upon our presumption, and the silent tomb shall have imposed its law on our pert loquacity.

Note, I know our forum is comprised of many non-believers (whom I respect as much as believers), so I wish this conversation not to take a turn toward that back'n forth, but rather keep it focused on the Left's authoritarian use of Global Warming as a settled science, to be used for public policy.

Please do not comment here nor on his blog (just as a common courtesy) if you do not read the entire post (it's rich with multimedia content to add additional context) so as to avoid our usual knee-jerk conclusions via only-reading-the-title/only-reading-the-OP's-conclusion posts.

Cowlesy
02-12-2010, 09:30 PM
//

Brooklyn Red Leg
02-12-2010, 09:39 PM
keep it focused on the Left's authoritarian use of Global Warming as a settled science

Heh, I guarantee you no real scientist that employs The Scientific Method is going to use the term 'settled science' as a theory can never be settled, only falsified (proven false via direct observation). The thing that really chaps my ass about Anthropogenic Global Warming is that it ignores that giant ball of self-illuminating plasma our planet orbits completely once ever 365 days. Somehow, the trillions of charged particles (ions) bouncing off our magnetosphere (causing the electrical/plasma phenomena called Aurora Borealis and its cousin Aurora Australis) are NOT affecting our weather, according to The Ivory Tower.

The disconnected view of The Universe, in my opinion, is just as antiquated and anthropocentric as that espoused by The Inquisition when it charged Galileo with heresy. We are awash in a universe full of electricity and its power over us (and life in general) is only now starting to emerge after more than a century of obscurity (Tesla, Birkeland, Alfvén et al).

amy31416
02-13-2010, 11:18 AM
I, admittedly, haven't read the entire article, but will. Just some initial thoughts though:

1. The whole "just a theory" argument. I've made the argument many times before that this argument is using the colloquial definition of the word, not the scientific. People who continue to use the colloquial definition as if it were scientific, are "forcing" mentally weaker or fatigued scientists to falsely claim that evolution or global warming is "fact" when that term isn't even used in scientific writings, thus causing a schism that forces people to take sides and stifle debate.

2. The point made above allows both sides to be easily manipulated, whether that is people being manipulated into believing that people have no effect on the environment whatsoever, or people who believe that the earth will become a giant ball of coal if we don't stop eating McDonald's cheeseburgers.

The sad fact is that neither side is seriously looking at real solutions to improve air quality, to sustain wildlife both for hunting and conservation purposes or just simply that we should respect the environment. There are simple solutions and there are more complex ones, and a carbon tax is about the least helpful, in my opinion.

That said...bump, and Lake Erie is completely frozen over this year for the first time since 1995, so I think I'm going to invade Canada. It's a quick 40 miles on ice skates.

Cowlesy
02-13-2010, 11:30 AM
I, admittedly, haven't read the entire article, but will. Just some initial thoughts though:

1. The whole "just a theory" argument. I've made the argument many times before that this argument is using the colloquial definition of the word, not the scientific. People who continue to use the colloquial definition as if it were scientific, are "forcing" mentally weaker or fatigued scientists to falsely claim that evolution or global warming is "fact" when that term isn't even used in scientific writings, thus causing a schism that forces people to take sides and stifle debate.

2. The point made above allows both sides to be easily manipulated, whether that is people being manipulated into believing that people have no effect on the environment whatsoever, or people who believe that the earth will become a giant ball of coal if we don't stop eating McDonald's cheeseburgers.

The sad fact is that neither side is seriously looking at real solutions to improve air quality, to sustain wildlife both for hunting and conservation purposes or just simply that we should respect the environment. There are simple solutions and there are more complex ones, and a carbon tax is about the least helpful, in my opinion.

That said...bump, and Lake Erie is completely frozen over this year for the first time since 1995, so I think I'm going to invade Canada. It's a quick 40 miles on ice skates.

Get out on the ice and do some perch fishing!

Old Ducker
02-13-2010, 02:20 PM
In their own words:

"The common enemy of humanity is man.
In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up
with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming,
water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these
dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through
changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome.
The real enemy then, is humanity itself."
- Club of Rome,
premier environmental think-tank,
consultants to the United Nations

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We need to get some broad based support,
to capture the public's imagination...
So we have to offer up scary scenarios,
make simplified, dramatic statements
and make little mention of any doubts...
Each of us has to decide what the right balance
is between being effective and being honest."
- Prof. Stephen Schneider,
Stanford Professor of Climatology,
lead author of many IPCC reports

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We've got to ride this global warming issue.
Even if the theory of global warming is wrong,
we will be doing the right thing in terms of
economic and environmental policy."
- Timothy Wirth,
President of the UN Foundation

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"No matter if the science of global warming is all phony...
climate change provides the greatest opportunity to
bring about justice and equality in the world."
- Christine Stewart,
former Canadian Minister of the Environment

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“The data doesn't matter. We're not basing our recommendations
on the data. We're basing them on the climate models.”
- Prof. Chris Folland,
Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“The models are convenient fictions
that provide something very useful.”
- Dr David Frame,
climate modeler, Oxford University

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I believe it is appropriate to have an 'over-representation' of the facts
on how dangerous it is, as a predicate for opening up the audience."
- Al Gore,
Climate Change activist

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It doesn't matter what is true,
it only matters what people believe is true."
- Paul Watson,
co-founder of Greenpeace

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Unless we announce disasters no one will listen."
- Sir John Houghton,
first chairman of IPCC

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The only way to get our society to truly change is to
frighten people with the possibility of a catastrophe."
- emeritus professor Daniel Botkin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The climate crisis is not a political issue, it is a moral and
spiritual challenge to all of humanity. It is also our greatest
opportunity to lift Global Consciousness to a higher level."
- Al Gore,
Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We are on the verge of a global transformation.
All we need is the right major crisis..."
- David Rockefeller,
Club of Rome executive member

amy31416
02-13-2010, 03:05 PM
Get out on the ice and do some perch fishing!

Deep fried! Yum!

I had a chance to read through most of the article, some of my initial reactions:


What is really at issue, however, is whether the prestige of Science is such that government must suppress all dissent.

If the science is sound and the system is working as it should, scientists themselves should cringe at such a notion as suppressing dissent. Considering that dissent is suppressed, there is something awry in the scientific model that free speech and questioning of their results is being dismissed, either as stupid, kooky or religious mumbo-jumbo.


The assertion that Science has all the answers to every important question, and that no answers are to be found in any ”unscientific” source, is arrogant in the extreme.

I agree. Especially considering that one of the basic tenets of science is that you never know anything absolutely, and you can never proclaim anything absolutely. It is one way to approach the human experience and it is centered on natural phenomenon, observation and experimentation.


Nor is it irrelevant to point out that all of these murderous madmen shared a contempt for religion and traditional morality.

Here's where I start to disagree. Religion and "Traditional" morality have both had their adherents who were murderous madmen. I believe that the horrors that are sometimes visited upon mankind make use of group think and passions, not specifically religion or science. Science has, in it's own right, become very much like religion--given that it has adherents who are not privy to the secrets of the inner circle who believe on faith alone. Rather than faith in God, it is faith in man and that that man is using the scientific method faithfully. The scientific method, like the 10 commandments, may be all that the adherent knows--and that's the more informed types.

They are simply master manipulators of people. Just as I doubt that Bush was a Christian who adhered to the doctrines of Christianity, I doubt that these atheist "madmen" knew the first goddamned thing about science. Both religion and science are tools which can be seriously misused.


But if Science is the sole authority to determine what shall be taught in public schools (as federal judges have declared), then what power can conceivably be denied to Science?"

This, in my opinion, goes too far, as "Science" has only insisted upon what can not be taught in science class in public schools. "Science" has not, as far as I know, attempted to influence what is taught in English, history or other classes. Whereas religion asserts itself in multiple spheres, not just in the teaching of religion.


As Bill Nye says, once the science is settled, it’s “unpatriotic” to dissent.

That's complete and utter bullshit and I have very little respect for him for having said that. To take science from the scientific realm and attempt to legitimize the politicization of it is utterly contemptible. To think that I used to love to watch his show. Asshole.

That's just part way through, it is a thought-provoking article.

Danke
02-13-2010, 05:42 PM
In their own words:

"The common enemy of humanity is man.
In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up
with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming,
water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these
dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through
changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome.
The real enemy then, is humanity itself."
- Club of Rome,
premier environmental think-tank,
consultants to the United Nations

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We need to get some broad based support,
to capture the public's imagination...
So we have to offer up scary scenarios,
make simplified, dramatic statements
and make little mention of any doubts...
Each of us has to decide what the right balance
is between being effective and being honest."
- Prof. Stephen Schneider,
Stanford Professor of Climatology,
lead author of many IPCC reports

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We've got to ride this global warming issue.
Even if the theory of global warming is wrong,
we will be doing the right thing in terms of
economic and environmental policy."
- Timothy Wirth,
President of the UN Foundation

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"No matter if the science of global warming is all phony...
climate change provides the greatest opportunity to
bring about justice and equality in the world."
- Christine Stewart,
former Canadian Minister of the Environment

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“The data doesn't matter. We're not basing our recommendations
on the data. We're basing them on the climate models.”
- Prof. Chris Folland,
Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“The models are convenient fictions
that provide something very useful.”
- Dr David Frame,
climate modeler, Oxford University

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I believe it is appropriate to have an 'over-representation' of the facts
on how dangerous it is, as a predicate for opening up the audience."
- Al Gore,
Climate Change activist

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It doesn't matter what is true,
it only matters what people believe is true."
- Paul Watson,
co-founder of Greenpeace

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Unless we announce disasters no one will listen."
- Sir John Houghton,
first chairman of IPCC

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The only way to get our society to truly change is to
frighten people with the possibility of a catastrophe."
- emeritus professor Daniel Botkin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The climate crisis is not a political issue, it is a moral and
spiritual challenge to all of humanity. It is also our greatest
opportunity to lift Global Consciousness to a higher level."
- Al Gore,
Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We are on the verge of a global transformation.
All we need is the right major crisis..."
- David Rockefeller,
Club of Rome executive member

Good stuff OF OD!

nayjevin
02-13-2010, 05:45 PM
Good stuff OF OD!

Yes, thanks for those.

Cowlesy
02-13-2010, 06:02 PM
In their own words:

"The common enemy of humanity is man.
In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up
with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming,
water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these
dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through
changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome.
The real enemy then, is humanity itself."
- Club of Rome,
premier environmental think-tank,
consultants to the United Nations

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We need to get some broad based support,
to capture the public's imagination...
So we have to offer up scary scenarios,
make simplified, dramatic statements
and make little mention of any doubts...
Each of us has to decide what the right balance
is between being effective and being honest."
- Prof. Stephen Schneider,
Stanford Professor of Climatology,
lead author of many IPCC reports

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We've got to ride this global warming issue.
Even if the theory of global warming is wrong,
we will be doing the right thing in terms of
economic and environmental policy."
- Timothy Wirth,
President of the UN Foundation

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"No matter if the science of global warming is all phony...
climate change provides the greatest opportunity to
bring about justice and equality in the world."
- Christine Stewart,
former Canadian Minister of the Environment

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“The data doesn't matter. We're not basing our recommendations
on the data. We're basing them on the climate models.”
- Prof. Chris Folland,
Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“The models are convenient fictions
that provide something very useful.”
- Dr David Frame,
climate modeler, Oxford University

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I believe it is appropriate to have an 'over-representation' of the facts
on how dangerous it is, as a predicate for opening up the audience."
- Al Gore,
Climate Change activist

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It doesn't matter what is true,
it only matters what people believe is true."
- Paul Watson,
co-founder of Greenpeace

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Unless we announce disasters no one will listen."
- Sir John Houghton,
first chairman of IPCC

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The only way to get our society to truly change is to
frighten people with the possibility of a catastrophe."
- emeritus professor Daniel Botkin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The climate crisis is not a political issue, it is a moral and
spiritual challenge to all of humanity. It is also our greatest
opportunity to lift Global Consciousness to a higher level."
- Al Gore,
Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"We are on the verge of a global transformation.
All we need is the right major crisis..."
- David Rockefeller,
Club of Rome executive member

Very very interesting quotes.

Why can't these wealthier-than-wealthy douchebags just sit on a beach in the South of France, drink pina coladas and leave the world the hell alone. It's got to be a lust for power and control.

Brooklyn Red Leg
02-13-2010, 07:08 PM
Why can't these wealthier-than-wealthy douchebags just sit on a beach in the South of France, drink pina coladas and leave the world the hell alone. It's got to be a lust for power and control.

Which is kinda sad when you think about it. These people have all the advantages life could load them up with, except that one thing that is so necessary: a conscience. They feel THEY should be the only ones in charge and people should bow to their whims. Its the same old, same old 'Divine Right of Kings'.

CapitalistRadical
02-13-2010, 07:24 PM
I am a fanatical scientismist.

Perhaps the meteorologists have a point, that these winters are warmer, but they deliver more precipitation. There's no contradiction there.

Now on the issue of climate change specifically, I don't care about your common sense or mine. It doesn't apply. Hundreds of true facts defy common sense. The science may not be settled, but the debate is far above your head and mine, so honesty behooves you to remain agnostic.

Dr.3D
02-13-2010, 08:16 PM
I am a fanatical scientismist.

Perhaps the meteorologists have a point, that these winters are warmer, but they deliver more precipitation. There's no contradiction there.

Now on the issue of climate change specifically, I don't care about your common sense or mine. It doesn't apply. Hundreds of true facts defy common sense. The science may not be settled, but the debate is far above your head and mine, so honesty behooves you to remain agnostic.

Not when they want to rob me to pay for something that may not be necessary.
I'll remain vocal until they can prove it one way or the other.

One can not mix science with politics and believe the science will win out over the political agenda.

Brooklyn Red Leg
02-13-2010, 10:46 PM
The science may not be settled, but the debate is far above your head and mine, so honesty behooves you to remain agnostic.

Bull. Shit. The idea that its somehow so complex that only specialists can understand it is horseshit of the highest order.

Flash
02-14-2010, 08:39 AM
Actually global warming is real, its been confirmed. The increasing temperatures every year have caused an increase in piracy.
http://thepeoplescube.com/red/richedit/upload/2k47c73ed688.png

AutonomousLiberty
02-14-2010, 12:52 PM
YouTube - Global Warming and the Love of Children? True News from Freedomain Radio (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLWRkwOzBx4)

YouTube - True News: Eco-Hypocrisy! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhUMG6KjBkQ)

CapitalistRadical
02-14-2010, 02:10 PM
Bull. Shit. The idea that its somehow so complex that only specialists can understand it is horseshit of the highest order.

Oh really? Here (http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2008/07/how_to_talk_to_a_sceptic.php)is a comprehensive set of rebuttals to common "climate skeptic" talking points. How many of those arguments can you follow, along with their full comment threads? Would you have anything at all to contribute to that discussion? Would you even be able to display the crudest comprehension of the science involved?

Dr.3D
02-14-2010, 02:33 PM
Oh really? Here (http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2008/07/how_to_talk_to_a_sceptic.php)is a comprehensive set of rebuttals to common "climate skeptic" talking points. How many of those arguments can you follow, along with their full comment threads? Would you have anything at all to contribute to that discussion? Would you even be able to display the crudest comprehension of the science involved?

Exactly correct, it's so complex, even the government paid so called specialists can't understand it.

Brooklyn Red Leg
02-14-2010, 07:32 PM
Oh really? Here (http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2008/07/how_to_talk_to_a_sceptic.php)is a comprehensive set of rebuttals to common "climate skeptic" talking points. How many of those arguments can you follow, along with their full comment threads? Would you have anything at all to contribute to that discussion? Would you even be able to display the crudest comprehension of the science involved?

Argumentum Ad Hominem.

When you decide to actually debate in a civil manner and not resort to left-handedly calling me a drooling jackass, then we'll talk.

Cowlesy
02-14-2010, 07:34 PM
I really think we need to declare the Sun a terrorist, and send it some democracy.

Brooklyn Red Leg
02-14-2010, 07:35 PM
I really think we need to declare the Sun a terrorist, and send it some democracy.

Indeedy. Those trillions of charged particles striking our atmosphere all the time are having such nasty effects on our weather that we need to declare war on that ball of plasma!

torchbearer
02-14-2010, 08:13 PM
I really think we need to declare the Sun a terrorist, and send it some democracy.

if only their was oil on the sun. we'd have an embassy there.