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View Full Version : I still support CFL




Matthew Zak
01-30-2010, 09:35 PM
I think they need to grow, and I think they need support. I don't think they've been compromised. I think they're looking far ahead and willing to get their hands a little dirty to establish crucial positioning in the world of politics. It's about time someone on our side were that gritty. I know the argument against it, and I would agree with it completely if I didn't think the CFL will do a LOT more good than harm in the future.

Anyway, I just wanted to show my support.

MRoCkEd
01-30-2010, 09:39 PM
I agree. The decision wasn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be, considering all of the details that have come out. If anything, the move did more to promote liberty. I do understand why people are upset about it. Nonetheless, it is wrong to say C4L has been compromised on foreign policy, especially considering they have been working on publishing and promoting a new book against the empire, and hosting an anti-war panel at CPAC.

dr. hfn
01-30-2010, 09:54 PM
I agree too. I would have done the same thing as they did with Ken Buck, it was free money and free publicity. C4L does need reformed though. Alot more transparency, a new website, and communication/input from the grassroots is needed.

tpreitzel
01-30-2010, 09:56 PM
I don't support it. Ron was wrong to associate himself with a top-down organization. Do I hold Ron accountable? Not really as Ron's a sitting congressman who simply doesn't have time to oversee organizations with which his name is affiliated, e.g. the C4L, Liberty PAC, etc. This current problem is symptomatic of ALL top-down organizations. A similar problem will arise soon enough as long as the current organization of the C4L exists.

Do I recommend that members simply pull out of the C4L? No. The C4L should remain organizationally intact until a viable alternative replaces it. However, the time is now to look for alternatives.

LibertyMage
01-30-2010, 09:58 PM
It means a lot to the volunteers on the ground that the support is still there!

jbuttell
01-30-2010, 11:15 PM
It means a lot to the volunteers on the ground that the support is still there!

Not to play down the concerns of those who have so hastily dropped their support for C4L, as I believe C4L owes it's members a more thorough explanation of what went down, but I'm not ready to withhold my support of their efforts.

C4L needs to be held accountable for their actions, people protesting by requesting the deletion of their membership and encouraging others to do the same seems to be a bit of an over-reaction - as a first response. While I have no doubts that some people have valid concerns, I can't help but wonder about the motivations of others.

qwerty
01-31-2010, 01:27 AM
I think they need to grow, and I think they need support. I don't think they've been compromised. I think they're looking far ahead and willing to get their hands a little dirty to establish crucial positioning in the world of politics. It's about time someone on our side were that gritty. I know the argument against it, and I would agree with it completely if I didn't think the CFL will do a LOT more good than harm in the future.

Anyway, I just wanted to show my support.

Awesome!

LBennett76
01-31-2010, 01:29 AM
"willing to get their hands a little dirty to establish crucial positioning in the world of politics."
Willing to do what the two-party system does? Willing to compromise core beliefs? Seriously?! That should be admired. I'm sorry, but I thought we were part of a revolution here, not the same ole BS from different people.
If they're willing to "get their hands dirty" on this, what other concessions are they willing to make in order to "establish crucial positioning"? Where do the lines get drawn if they weren't firm to begin with? Where does the selling out stop?
Sorry. The only thing keeping me from deleting my account is I like reading the articles that people write. Other than that, my faith is gone. They sold me out. I will not list myself as an associate when I campaign for liberty candidates. I'm disgusted and nothing about it will ever change my mind. Sorry.
I hope that a thorough review is done and the traitors to the movement are weeded out so the organization can grow as it should and function as it should.

Pauls' Revere
01-31-2010, 02:37 AM
"willing to get their hands a little dirty to establish crucial positioning in the world of politics."
Willing to do what the two-party system does? Willing to compromise core beliefs? Seriously?! That should be admired. I'm sorry, but I thought we were part of a revolution here, not the same ole BS from different people.
If they're willing to "get their hands dirty" on this, what other concessions are they willing to make in order to "establish crucial positioning"? Where do the lines get drawn if they weren't firm to begin with? Where does the selling out stop?
Sorry. The only thing keeping me from deleting my account is I like reading the articles that people write. Other than that, my faith is gone. They sold me out. I will not list myself as an associate when I campaign for liberty candidates. I'm disgusted and nothing about it will ever change my mind. Sorry.
I hope that a thorough review is done and the traitors to the movement are weeded out so the organization can grow as it should and function as it should.

I also feel like were approaching mainstream GOP territory (are we going through growing pains?). We were "the marginialized" GOP and now it's like they want us to be like the established GOP. It needs to be the other way around where we marginalize the established GOP, RINO's, NEOCONS, etc...

ronpaulhawaii
01-31-2010, 03:25 AM
I think they need to grow, and I think they need support. I don't think they've been compromised. I think they're looking far ahead and willing to get their hands a little dirty to establish crucial positioning in the world of politics. It's about time someone on our side were that gritty. I know the argument against it, and I would agree with it completely if I didn't think the CFL will do a LOT more good than harm in the future.

Anyway, I just wanted to show my support.

Matthew, I support you, and people like you, working in CfL. But I will no longer include CfL in lit drops/etc. I will be talking up YoY/etc. rather than CfL. Mostly, I will no longer defend HQ. (In spite of this change in convictions I still spoke out against a panicked abandoning of ship/etc.)

Most of us want CfL to grow and have supported them. Many of us have had enough. We can clearly see that the top down control is failing the potential of the organization. Most of the people who built the r3VOlution remain on the periphery because of these issues. What seems to be being built now is different from what got me involved. While there are plenty of issues that have a wide line in the sand. A few are very narrow and distinct.

Patrick Henry once said, "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel.

I fully suspect that political operatives of all stripes and sizes have been studying and attempting to hijack our movement. For this reason I fully support shining lights on anything that drifts from core principles. I don't care of it is CfL or any other entity of the r3v. Regarding CfL, I don't have the time, nor desire, to speculate, so am left to stand at my line in the sand.

One of the most common laments I have heard on my travels is, "my party left me"

I'll be here if you need me ;)

Matthew Zak
02-01-2010, 10:58 AM
Willing to do what the two-party system does? Willing to compromise core beliefs? Seriously?! That should be admired. I'm sorry, but I thought we were part of a revolution here, not the same ole BS from different people.

Where do we draw the line? Ron Paul ran as a REPUBLICAN in a "DEMOCRATIC" election, though he was really a LIBERTARIAN, trying to save the REPUBLIC. We HAVE to infiltrate, or we'll remain on the outside looking in. And we have to keep our eyes on the ball.


If they're willing to "get their hands dirty" on this, what other concessions are they willing to make in order to "establish crucial positioning"? Where do the lines get drawn if they weren't firm to begin with? Where does the selling out stop?

The quickest way for the CFL to fail is to make room for the neocons to take it over. Good voices should stay there and stay active.



Sorry. The only thing keeping me from deleting my account is I like reading the articles that people write. Other than that, my faith is gone. They sold me out. I will not list myself as an associate when I campaign for liberty candidates. I'm disgusted and nothing about it will ever change my mind. Sorry.
I hope that a thorough review is done and the traitors to the movement are weeded out so the organization can grow as it should and function as it should.

They won't be seen as traitors if the only people left are of like-mind.

LittleLightShining
02-01-2010, 11:03 AM
Where do we draw the line? Ron Paul ran as a REPUBLICAN in a "DEMOCRATIC" election, though he was really a LIBERTARIAN, trying to save the REPUBLIC. We HAVE to infiltrate, or we'll remain on the outside looking in. And we have to keep our eyes on the ball.



The quickest way for the CFL to fail is to make room for the neocons to take it over. Good voices should stay there and stay active.




They won't be seen as traitors if the only people left are of like-mind.

From what I gather anyone who dissents from the party line (what National has done and will continue to do when and where they can) is "trying to destroy the Campaign For Liberty" and is "free to leave if they don't like it".

As I am not trying to destroy C4L but I do not agree with the direction dear leaders would have it go, my only choice was to leave.

But enough of that... for now.

It's time for grassroots to rally around Adam Kokesh. Adam has remained true to the message, hasn't compromised a centimeter on his beliefs and is hitting the pavement at breakneck speed to bring the message to right and left. Go Adam!

brandon
02-01-2010, 11:05 AM
Why support some secretive national organization? It's like a mini federal government.

MsDoodahs
02-01-2010, 11:07 AM
The quickest way for the CFL to fail is to make room for the neocons to take it over.


already happened.


Why support some secretive national organization? It's like a mini federal government.

yep.

Daamien
02-01-2010, 11:20 AM
It means a lot to the volunteers on the ground that the support is still there!

It also means a lot to the volunteers on the ground that leadership hasn't been held accountable for their actions or the legitimacy of their centralized hold on power in a grassroots organization.

Cosmo BG
02-01-2010, 11:20 AM
The problem is that the long-festering underlying issues that led to this fiasco have not been addressed at all. I have seen no increased transparency that would help shed light on why this happened, and what will prevent it from happening again. There have only been much-delayed, highly-spun "released statements" that narrowly address this specific situation, and not even that to satisfaction.

The fact that the money for the ad came from "outside donors" who insisted that it be used specifically for the ad is worse than if some low-level nobody just impulsively decided to do it on their own. It amounts to political prostitution and sleaziness of the worst sort. Our good name is worth more than any amount of money....isn't it? Apparently not. Well, money can't buy back a soiled reputation, so I am very much conflicted about what my future involvement with CFL will be, if any. And I am/was a County Coordinator.

The whole situation was and is very un-libertarian in the extreme.

erowe1
02-01-2010, 11:22 AM
Why support some secretive national organization? It's like a mini federal government.

That's the part that bothers me the most. I can understand individual members or state chapters compromising to support a candidate who's an interventionist if there is enough else going for him. And I still don't know enough about Ken Buck to know if I'd back him if I lived in CO.

But the way it seems apparent that this all came about by some kind of back room deal and the way the official responses from national and CO CFL leaders conspicuously avoid addressing that charge all has the smell of corruption.

dean.engelhardt
02-01-2010, 11:25 AM
If CFL started running ads supporting Lindsey Graham, you'd you still support it? C4L took special interest money in exchange to stick its logo on a candidate that promotes empire building.

Lets call a spade a spade. CFL principles are for sale. By adopting a pro-war stance, they are main stream republicans! They will get a lot more members and money.

ScoutsHonor
02-01-2010, 12:00 PM
I agree with this.^

If you keep forgiving evil, you will get more evil.

rancher89
02-01-2010, 12:12 PM
Take last weeks fubar and this week's endorsement of Rand by Palin....

All I can think of is "slippery slope."

NerveShocker
02-01-2010, 12:57 PM
I think Campaign for Liberty needs to be shaken up.. from the leadership on down. This Tate character should never have allowed such lame questionnaires to be sent out and on top of that spending $350,000 supporting some candidate based on these terrible surveys or whatever they were?

In my opinion this guy should give up his leadership role since he massively failed. As far as whoever was involved in writing those surveys/questionnaires they should also immediately give up their position to somebody who is competent. Not trying to be harsh but those questions (assuming I saw the correct ones) were a complete joke and giving this money based on it is outrageous.

If those 2 things are done to correct the CFL then I would have no problem continuing to support them. Like any organization if the leader is bad (or corrupt) hold them accountable and throw them out when they make mistakes so it won't be repeated.

dean.engelhardt
02-01-2010, 01:09 PM
From NerveShocker:

"I think Campaign for Liberty needs to be shaken up.. from the leadership on down. This Tate character should never have allowed such lame questionnaires to be sent out and on top of that spending $350,000 supporting some candidate based on these terrible surveys or whatever they were?

In my opinion this guy should give up his leadership role since he massively failed. As far as whoever was involved in writing those surveys/questionnaires they should also immediately give up their position to somebody who is competent. Not trying to be harsh but those questions (assuming I saw the correct ones) were a complete joke and giving this money based on it is outrageous.

If those 2 things are done to correct the CFL then I would have no problem continuing to support them. Like any organization if the leader is bad (or corrupt) hold them accountable and throw them out when they make mistakes so it won't be repeated."

I do not beleive this is policy change is an accident. By taking a mainstream republican stance, more money will pour into C4L.

LittleLightShining
02-01-2010, 01:11 PM
From NerveShocker:

"I think Campaign for Liberty needs to be shaken up.. from the leadership on down. This Tate character should never have allowed such lame questionnaires to be sent out and on top of that spending $350,000 supporting some candidate based on these terrible surveys or whatever they were?

In my opinion this guy should give up his leadership role since he massively failed. As far as whoever was involved in writing those surveys/questionnaires they should also immediately give up their position to somebody who is competent. Not trying to be harsh but those questions (assuming I saw the correct ones) were a complete joke and giving this money based on it is outrageous.

If those 2 things are done to correct the CFL then I would have no problem continuing to support them. Like any organization if the leader is bad (or corrupt) hold them accountable and throw them out when they make mistakes so it won't be repeated."

I do not beleive this is policy change is an accident. By taking a mainstream republican stance, more money will pour into C4L.I totally agree.

It's telling that both Tate and Rothfeld made their pre-C4L living as political fundraisers.

NerveShocker
02-01-2010, 01:29 PM
From NerveShocker:

"I think Campaign for Liberty needs to be shaken up.. from the leadership on down. This Tate character should never have allowed such lame questionnaires to be sent out and on top of that spending $350,000 supporting some candidate based on these terrible surveys or whatever they were?

In my opinion this guy should give up his leadership role since he massively failed. As far as whoever was involved in writing those surveys/questionnaires they should also immediately give up their position to somebody who is competent. Not trying to be harsh but those questions (assuming I saw the correct ones) were a complete joke and giving this money based on it is outrageous.

If those 2 things are done to correct the CFL then I would have no problem continuing to support them. Like any organization if the leader is bad (or corrupt) hold them accountable and throw them out when they make mistakes so it won't be repeated."

I do not beleive this is policy change is an accident. By taking a mainstream republican stance, more money will pour into C4L.

Well if they want to take that road then fine, they can compete with the hundreds of other organizations supporting the Republican party status-quo.

That or they can keep their principles, throw out the corrupt leadership, do away with the corny questionnaires, and start supporting liberty candidates so we can support them. Time will tell but until they make drastic changes I doubt they can look to the liberty movement for support in the future.

It's Independents and freedom + truth lovers that are growing in this country.. not Republicans.

MsDoodahs
02-01-2010, 01:34 PM
I do not beleive this is policy change is an accident. By taking a mainstream republican stance, more money will pour into C4L.

Neither do I.

From John Tate's bio at CFL (bolding added):

"John is a long-time political operative who has spent the last 26 years working in the political, lobbying and non-profit world in the areas of high dollar fundraising, direct mail, political strategy, grassroots activism and non-profit management."

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/profile.php?member=John_Tate

From fundraiser and education consultant Michael Rothfeld's bio at his company, Saber Communications (bolding added):

"In over twenty years of professional political activism, Mr. Rothfeld has directed grass-roots programs and fundraising for all types of organizations
including PACs, educational foundations, political lobbies, political parties
and campaigns."

"In 1992, Mr. Rothfeld formed SABER, a full-service consulting company
working with selected (pro-life, conservative) candidates for political office;
fundraising for organizations, non-profits and businesses; and consulting in
grass-roots political lobbying. SABER has worked for conservative candidates
at all levels, set new records fundraising for clients, and successfully directed grass-roots lobbying campaigns to pass and defeat legislation."

http://saberinc.net/saber/about/mir.pdf

I know fundraising is important, but - based on the calls, the mailers, the ongoing complete lack of transparency, and displayed disdain for the very grassroots that is the source of the funds raised - CFL has a sleazy feel to it.

Couple that money hungry sleaziness feel with what looks like a backroom deal to have CFL act as a funnel for previously developed contacts in Colorado who wished to pour a LOT of money into the warmonger Buck's campaign...the conclusion for me (and I know for others as well) is that CFL has already been compromised, and has become just another "politics as usual" arm of the GOP.

That said - for me, at least - RPFs will remain THE home for fundraising for REAL liberty candidates.

DONATE DIRECTLY TO THE LIBERTY CANDIDATE OF YOUR CHOICE!

Adam Kokesh has a money bomb going on RIGHT NOW.

Debra Medina's money bomb is set to detonate TOMORROW.

:)

dean.engelhardt
02-01-2010, 02:33 PM
Great research and opinion on Tate. There was another noticeable indicator that foreign policy was changing in C4L.

The last 2 contribution requests I received from C4L asked me to put a check by the most important issue to me. No foreign policy choices were available. On the first one, I added foreign policy myself; the second one went into the trash.

cybloo
02-01-2010, 03:02 PM
I don't think they've been compromised. I think they're looking far ahead and willing to get their hands a little dirty to establish crucial positioning in the world of politics. It's about time someone on our side were that gritty.

I do not want to play the game - I want to change it. As such, I do not want to be a part of an organization that gets "dirty" and in the process, loses little pieces of its integrity.

As it stands now, I am an inactive C4L member and will not donate anymore money. I truly hope that C4L grows from Buckgate (I couldn't resist) and this sort of thing won't happen again. They are a great resource of educational materials and the website provides a nice way to connect with like-minded people in your area, amongst other things... I hate to see that tarnished.

LibertyMage
02-01-2010, 03:05 PM
It also means a lot to the volunteers on the ground that leadership hasn't been held accountable for their actions or the legitimacy of their centralized hold on power in a grassroots organization.

The idea that the leadership has a "hold on power" is not true, at least in Maryland. The national team is nowhere to be found, except for a few interns who you may see at events once in a while to ask for volunteers.

The chapters in Maryland are 100% grassroots.

LittleLightShining
02-01-2010, 03:07 PM
It seems as though Rothfeld has had an interesting past in Colorado politics.
Involvement in alleged campaign finance violations ("http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache%3AjSSPy_ApqmEJ%3Awww.elections.colorado.go v%2FContent%2FDocuments%2FCampaign%2520Finance%2F2 005%2520Admin%2520Decisions%2Fos_2005-0014.pdf+%22colorado%22+%22saber+communications%22&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AHIEtbRuQwsrYp-UiG52p4nVXzAAOBc1nw&pli=1)

Chieppa1
02-01-2010, 03:14 PM
There is a total difference between CFL at the national level versus at a state level. You can donate at a state level. Like I will be doing. And since New Jersey isn't very organized yet, I will have more impact as it grows.

I went a small meeting yesterday, and their goals are the same as mine. We have decided to try to get elected at the lowest party level (Dem. or Rep) within our counties. These are people who decide which candidates get the "party line" endorsement. These are people who censored Lindsay Graham in SC.

Best way to change the party platform without having to win over 50% of the state.

LittleLightShining
02-01-2010, 03:20 PM
There is a total difference between CFL at the national level versus at a state level. You can donate at a state level. Like I will be doing. And since New Jersey isn't very organized yet, I will have more impact as it grows.

I went a small meeting yesterday, and their goals are the same as mine. We have decided to try to get elected at the lowest party level (Dem. or Rep) within our counties. These are people who decide which candidates get the "party line" endorsement. These are people who censored Lindsay Graham in SC.

Best way to change the party platform without having to win over 50% of the state.Yeah, absolutely. I still am every bit as committed to VT C4L as I was the day we started.

RileyE104
02-01-2010, 03:38 PM
Am I the only one who thinks this incident is turning into a repeat of the French Revolution, just without all the blood shed?? I keep getting the eerie feeling of history repeating itself...

We all put our support behind a great man and a great idea. Did we fail in 2008? No, we didn't even stop fighting. We all became a part of this group that has been trying to push a peaceful Revolution, while being called everything from "kooks" to "radicals" by mainstream media.. Then these other "Tea Parties" start coming out of the woodwork and the true goal of our movement became watered down. I hate how the Republicans have hijacked our movement. We tried to infiltrate them, but they've somehow managed to turn it around on us by infiltrating the movement that WAS MEANT to infiltrate them. Pretty ironic... But I did expect it would happen since whatever the damn media reports becomes truth to average-Joe citizens.

Then the very group we all dedicated ourselves to takes a blow when this incident occurs.. Things are going bad and we need to fix this before our movement gets any weaker.

I think we all need to chill out and re-organize things. Fix the way we pick our leadership. We need some RON-PAUL-INTERVENTION here too, if he can do anything about this.


Most importantly, we need to re-establish what this movement is all about. Because I definitely do NOT want to associate myself with a movement that is seen as helping the Republicans. I want this to be seen as a CONSTITUTIONAL MOVEMENT once again.

LittleLightShining
02-01-2010, 03:54 PM
Am I the only one who thinks this incident is turning into a repeat of the French Revolution, just without all the blood shed?? I keep getting the eerie feeling of history repeating itself...

We all put our support behind a great man and a great idea. Did we fail in 2008? No, we didn't even stop fighting. We all became a part of this group that has been trying to push a peaceful Revolution, while being called everything from "kooks" to "radicals" by mainstream media.. Then these other "Tea Parties" start coming out of the woodwork and the true goal of our movement became watered down. I hate how the Republicans have hijacked our movement. We tried to infiltrate them, but they've somehow managed to turn it around on us by infiltrating the movement that WAS MEANT to infiltrate them. Pretty ironic... But I did expect it would happen since whatever the damn media reports becomes truth to average-Joe citizens.

Then the very group we all dedicated ourselves to takes a blow when this incident occurs.. Things are going bad and we need to fix this before our movement gets any weaker.

I think we all need to chill out and re-organize things. Fix the way we pick our leadership. We need some RON-PAUL-INTERVENTION here too, if he can do anything about this.


Most importantly, we need to re-establish what this movement is all about. Because I definitely do NOT want to associate myself with a movement that is seen as helping the Republicans. I want this to be seen as a CONSTITUTIONAL MOVEMENT once again.
What's interesting to me about the tea parties and C4L-- I got this email today. I never took part in a conference call but I still get emails about them. Check this out:


# Encouragement of additional Tea Party Patriots local groups

* Theory: To have the most impact in our government and to actually reclaim our founding principles, we need to have the largest group and membership possible. The larger membership will expand our reach. It can be achieved not by building to largest single list but by encouraging and empowering members to become local coordinators and build their own lists. The local coordinators will then forward the national information to their local lists. While we encourage the formation of many local groups, we also encourage 1 major event in any metro area that does not conflict with other smaller events on national days of events. This way the media can go to 1 specific location and we have the largest crowd possible for that 1 specific location. To accomplish this, it will be important that the local groups work together to put on the best single event for an area.
* Discussion: This is a paradigm shift from the way politics are usually done. Does this make sense? Do you feel comfortable empowering local members to potentially become local coordinators as long as the local group falls in line with the core values and mission statement of TPP? Concerns? Thoughts?

# Concerns regarding co-oping, hijacking, etc. of tea party movement

* Lots and lots of groups and politicans want a piece of the tea party. Some want it for good. Others want it for their own purposes. Some are the opposition and seek to squash us.
* Discussion: We want your thoughts on how National Coordinators should respond to this kind of attention? Are we responding appropriately? Should we change and if so how?

How's that for encouraging the grassroots and transparency? Not, get us as many names and emails as you can so we can solicit them but go out, make your own lists and if we have something for you we'll pass it on.