E-mail from CO state coordinator

[disorderlyvision]

I e-mailed my state coordinator letting her know of my decision to leave C4L, I did let her know that I would still be willing to help on some action items, but that I could no longer support C4L as an organization. She sent me the e-mail she received from CO coordinator...


There will be an email from national about this sometime today, but I wanted to give you a summary about what happened as quickly as possible.

C4L had a conference call about the ad today with all State organizers. They admit that the ad should have been 1/2 Buck (since he HAS filled out a Liberty questionnaire, and none of the other Senate candidates would...so FAR, more on that later) and 1/2 that Norton refused. They admit the mistake, and will strive to do better in other States.

I've been phoned by several members, and the 1st thing I've asked them is "Have you met any of your Senate candidates face to face or spoken with them on the phone?" 99% have NOT! So I encourage them to do so. They usually WILL not. Grrrrr.....

Then I tell them that whatever candidate it is, they are no Ron Paul and that we must go with whoever is the most liberty minded AND THE MOST TEACHABLE!

Buck was all for the Fed back in Feb. of last year.. After giving him RP's Revolution book, and 2 others, Buck has done a 180 about the Fed. He has even gone so far as to publicly call out Bennet in Nov. to co-sponsor Audit the Fed. (see here). Then this past Wednesday, he called out Bennet for voting "yes" on giving Bernanke a second term. (see here)

Buck STILL needs more education.. I met with him a few months ago about the war issue. At that time he thought the war and invasion was great. Then I asked him, how could he claim to be fiscally conservative AND be for the war, the biggest unconstutitional expense at the Federal level right now. After some back and forth on this...he has come around a bit more to our side (wants to do pinpoint stuff "over there" then get out) and is also saying in his speeches that our nation building must stop. I'm still working on him about the fighting terrorism "over there" rhetoric...but I've only got 2 other people working with me to teach him! I need at least 5000 more doing this in the State with all the candidates.

Now...it's ALSO up to grass roots activists to get out there and EDUCATE candidates, not expect five people in all of Colorado's C4L to do it FOR them! Look at Glenn Beck from 2 years ago to now...he's changed a lot since then, due to EDUCATION from grass roots people.

Now for the fun part. In saying that Buck filled out the survey in the ad, and knowing that C4L members here in CO raised $350,000 on their own (no C4L funds were used for this ad, it was done by members up in northern CO) to pay for this ad, I've got candidates dying to fill it out. Tidwell turned it in on Wednesday after having it for over 6 months. Tee hee...AND (even more fun) C4L is now being respected instead of mocked by many in CO at the State level.

I've been called 3 times in the last two days to do speaking engagements about C4L and their values. This is good.

So, in a nutshell: The ad called out candidates to fill out surveys, and it worked. (Tidwell sent his in on Wednesday when the ads started to run, before that he had "ignored" it)

The ad should have been made better, and C4L is drafting an email to go out to all to admit this and give details as to what they will be correcting.

CO C4L is now a force to behold!

Candidates are teachable.

Members need to be more active.

The 912's would not exist if Beck had not been teachable and had changed.


I hope this helps a bit, and thank you for being one of the active members. Have you "Adopted" your State Senator or State Representative yet?

Be well~
Bonnie Cannon

[LittleLightShining]

Bonnie Cannon, who are these donors in Northern Colorado? Are they new members? Did the money go to you? Did you authorize spending of this money on this ad? Is Colorado C4L organized as a 501c4 and therefore legally allowed to accept said funds?

[angelatc]

Bonnie Cannon, who are these donors in Northern Colorado? Are they new members? Did the money go to you? Did you authorize spending of this money on this ad? Is Colorado C4L organized as a 501c4 and therefore legally allowed to accept said funds?

Who wrote the check? Were any donations in excess od $5,000? If so, when will their names be released?

[MRoCkEd]

very good
thanks

[YumYum]

She kept mentioning Beck in her e-mail and how he is educated. Beck and Palin have ripped off Dr. Paul's platform on domestic policy, but continue to push for empire building and war. Rand is hawkish, so is Peter. There is something more to all this than just this ad.

Prediction: Beck and possibly Palin will endorse Campaign for Liberty, Rand, and possibly Schiff.

[Mike4Freedom]

That makes much more sense now. I also think the person that wrote the article telling us about the 350000 that was spent was trying to divide us.

Liberty minded people are now becoming a real threat to the establishment. Divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the book.

[hugolp]

She kept mentioning Beck in her e-mail and how he is educated. Beck and Palin have ripped off Dr. Paul's platform on domestic policy, but continue to push for empire building and war. Rand is hawkish, so is Peter. There is something more to all this than just this ad.

Prediction: Beck and possibly Palin will endorse Campaign for Liberty, Rand, and possibly Schiff.

I think Rand and Schiff are just trying to appeal to some neo-cons voters by giving some ambiguous responses about war, thats all. They are just acting like politicians.

[MsDoodahs]

She kept mentioning Beck in her e-mail and how he is educated. Beck and Palin have ripped off Dr. Paul's platform on domestic policy, but continue to push for empire building and war. Rand is hawkish, so is Peter. There is something more to all this than just this ad.

Prediction: Beck and possibly Palin will endorse Campaign for Liberty, Rand, and possibly Schiff.

Yikes. But yeah, I can see that happening.

CFL sees the opportunity to access even more money from an even larger pool - the GOP base.

And since CFL has already demonstrated that the non intervention plank means nothing to them, and that they are quite comfortable selling out...yeah....you may be right Yum.

I guess this is what happens when those put at the top of the org don't agree with Ron Paul on non intervention.

[catdd]

She kept mentioning Beck in her e-mail and how he is educated. Beck and Palin have ripped off Dr. Paul's platform on domestic policy, but continue to push for empire building and war. Rand is hawkish, so is Peter. There is something more to all this than just this ad.

Prediction: Beck and possibly Palin will endorse Campaign for Liberty, Rand, and possibly Schiff.

It's possible.
Then if the Tea Party merges with the Republicans, they could all join forces.
I don't know if this is really how it is but I've been thinking that there's more to this than meets the eye.

[LittleLightShining]

That makes much more sense now. I also think the person that wrote the article telling us about the 350000 that was spent was trying to divide us.

Liberty minded people are now becoming a real threat to the establishment. Divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the book.

It's not just divide and conquer. It's infiltrate and compromise from within.

As long as the grassroots stays focused and committed to liberty we'll be fine. The benefit is that more money will go where it should have been going-- to assist quality candidates and fund targeted projects locally-- instead of to elitist fundraisers who think they know a lot better than we do what to do with our money. (I just realized I could have been talking about Congress right there :eek: )Yeah, nothing like becoming what you're fighting against :rolleyes:

[YumYum]

I think Rand and Schiff are just trying to appeal to some neo-cons voters by giving some ambiguous responses about war, thats all. They are just acting like politicians.

I agree. But what I am seeing is that just as the neocons ripped off our Tea Party activities, they will take over C4L, and the staff is being manipulated by power and money. You can spot someone in C4L immediatly who is self serving and an opportunist. They don't have the same spirit and attitude as those of us who are self-sacrificing and are not looking to exploit this. It appears that some of those opportunity seekers have made it into National, and they can be bought.

Rand and Peter are just trying to survive, and I don't blame them. But they are playing with the Big Boys now, little fish swimming with the sharks, and they can be manipulated. I think C4L is making compromises that we are not aware of. They are making deals to get into the Big Leagues.

[Flash]

She kept mentioning Beck in her e-mail and how he is educated. Beck and Palin have ripped off Dr. Paul's platform on domestic policy, but continue to push for empire building and war. Rand is hawkish, so is Peter. There is something more to all this than just this ad.

Prediction: Beck and possibly Palin will endorse Campaign for Liberty, Rand, and possibly Schiff.

I haven't found any evidence for this so far. I don't see how Rand is hawkish. His foreign policy is identical to Ron Paul. Schiff believes in strong national defense, which is along the lines of Teddy Roosevelt's speak softly and carry a big stick.

[UtahApocalypse]

LOL.....

She claims that she and her 5 people can not do it alone yet NOBODY heard of any of this until it was already done. party line bullshit, yet another person that has to leave C4L before I consider rejoining.

[YumYum]

I haven't found any evidence for this so far. I don't see how Rand is hawkish. His foreign policy is identical to Ron Paul. Schiff believes in strong national defense, which is along the lines of Teddy Roosevelt's speak softly and carry a big stick.

A forum member here stated that Rand is sounding hawkish, which if true, would only be to appease neo-cons. My point is not to attack Peter or Rand, they are good people, my point is the neocons controlling the Republican Party see Ron Paul as a serious threat to their power. We have a neocon in our meet up group who is running for Congress, and she will win. Two people in our meet up group have come under her spell. This is happening all over at a grassroots level, but to be really successful, the neocons have to go after the top people in C4L. You must remember, where Rand and Peter are concerned, they are going for the Senate, the "Good Ole Boys Club", and you can't just get voted in and walk in, which is what they are trying to do. You have to play by the rules. The Republicans are trying to get rid of Ron Paul, and they are serious. Ron is endorsing incumbants to survive, and I am not knocking him for doing that. But does this now give a licence for C4L, Rand and Peter, to also make compromises? Time will tell. But I think the Beck people will become members of C4L real soon with Beck's endorsement, which is death to us, but more power and money for the staff at National.

[catdd]

I wouldn't be opposed if C4L went into some type of merger under the conditions that all of our candidates receive full republican support - even though I wouldn't take an active role in it.

If it helps get the Pauls, Schiffs, and Medinas of the world elected...

[YumYum]

I wouldn't be opposed if C4L went into some type of merger under the conditions that all of our candidates receive full republican support - even though I wouldn't take an active role in it.

If it helps get the Pauls, Schiffs, and Medinas of the world elected...

Fine, but with full transparency. None of this "behind closed doors" nonsense.

[catdd]

Yes

[itshappening]

Vote Ken Buck maybe he is the better than the others and we can work on him

i'd rather have someone we can work on than ANOTHER friggin' closed minded neocon

[LittleLightShining]

Vote Ken Buck maybe he is the better than the others and we can work on him

i'd rather have someone we can work on than ANOTHER friggin' closed minded neocon

4th amendment violations and hate-crime prosecutions notwithstanding?

[itshappening]

4th amendment violations and hate-crime prosecutions notwithstanding?

the alternative in that state is probably a lot worse no? I dont know.... just saying.

[catdd]

the alternative in that state is probably a lot worse no? I dont know.... just saying.

Michael Bennett
http://bennet.senate.gov/

[LittleLightShining]

the alternative in that state is probably a lot worse no? I dont know.... just saying.I wonder if the Democrat is an interventionist.

We should stay out of these crap races. Only get involved where we have a quality, liberty candidate. That is if the goal is to elect quality, liberty candidates.

[__27__]

the alternative in that state is probably a lot worse no? I dont know.... just saying.

The lesser of two evils is still EVIL. Sacrificing principles has given us 100 years of out of control federal government, lesser of two evils gave us 8 years of Bush and Obama.

I am immensely proud of the liberty movement for standing tall on this issue, especially when it would have been so easy to just accept the "lesser of two evils" argument.

[Brian4Liberty]

"Have you met any of your Senate candidates face to face or spoken with them on the phone?"
...
I met with him a few months ago about the war issue. At that time he thought the war and invasion was great. Then I asked him, how could he claim to be fiscally conservative AND be for the war, the biggest unconstutitional expense at the Federal level right now. After some back and forth on this...he has come around a bit more to our side (wants to do pinpoint stuff "over there" then get out) and is also saying in his speeches that our nation building must stop. I'm still working on him about the fighting terrorism "over there" rhetoric...but I've only got 2 other people working with me to teach him! I need at least 5000 more doing this in the State with all the candidates.

The e-mail from the CO activist makes a point that has not been made during this controversy. There are personal relationships involved here. Not in a bad way. People getting to know other people, people actually having conversations with candidates. It makes a big difference when you get to know people at a personal level.

For instance, an example that does not apply to the specific CO case:

Candidate A puts up a website with issues. You agree 90%.

Candidate B puts up a website with issues. You agree 80%.

You contact both candidates to find out more. Candidate A does not respond. Their campaign does not respond. Candidate B's campaign responds, and then puts you in contact with Candidate B. You find Candidate B more than willing to discuss issues, and they are open to looking at things in a different light. They start to publicly address your issues. Still zero response from Candidate A. Which candidate do you support?

In the specific CO case, it looks like Buck is the better of the three GOP Primary candidates on the issues, and he is talking to grassroots activists. It is not surprising that they are supporting Buck over the others. They are in CO, so they have a big interest in having some (any) choice on election day.

[dannno]

I just read a post in the OP about a CFL leader trying to turn a neocon who happens to be a representative for the people into a anti-imperialist, non-interventionist, anti-Fed, pro-liberty candidate. They appear to be more than half way there.

That's not what the discussion in this thread seems to be about :confused:

[dannno]

The lesser of two evils is still EVIL. Sacrificing principles has given us 100 years of out of control federal government, lesser of two evils gave us 8 years of Bush and Obama.

I am immensely proud of the liberty movement for standing tall on this issue, especially when it would have been so easy to just accept the "lesser of two evils" argument.

Did you read the OP? I'm looking at the momentum issue we have going here.

Give that dude a rainy weekend and A Foreign Policy of Freedom by Ron Paul and I'll guarantee he'd be completely on our side by Monday.

He already changed his mind and agrees that wars should be declared by congress. He already changed his mind and agrees that we shouldn't be nation building and we should only target the terrorists (this is A HUGE lead forward imo, tho still not completely non-interventionist you can tell he's on a journey that may take him where he needs to be)

Why is he on this path? The C4L. Why can't we steal neocons as long as they are sincere and we hold them accountable? It's a lot easier than bringing in new politicians who have no name recognition or 'experience', or haven't even been a Republican for more than a couple years..

[angelatc]

I just read a post in the OP about a CFL leader trying to turn a neocon who happens to be a representative for the people into a anti-imperialist, non-interventionist, anti-Fed, pro-liberty candidate. They appear to be more than half way there.

That's not what the discussion in this thread seems to be about :confused:

I see a CFL leader getting excited when a chameleon parrots her lines back to her group when told to.

[angelatc]

Did you read the OP? I'm looking at the momentum issue we have going here.

Give that dude a rainy weekend and A Foreign Policy of Freedom by Ron Paul and I'll guarantee he'd be completely on our side by Monday.

I believe he'll say he's on our side. There's a huge difference.

[__27__]

Did you read the OP? I'm looking at the momentum issue we have going here.

Give that dude a rainy weekend and A Foreign Policy of Freedom by Ron Paul and I'll guarantee he'd be completely on our side by Monday.

Are you serious? A guy with a teetotaler history such as Buck is going to completely change his ways after a weekend of light reading? And if he does that means we should support him? If he changes it's for political expediency, not for principles. If he wants to make a TRUE change on principles, then he should join the movement on a grassroots level and throw his support to someone who has truly held the principles of liberty and lived them. If you sacrifice your principles for the lesser of two evils, there was no point in Dr. Paul's campaign or the movement to begin with. We should have all just supported McCain and sent him a copy of Dr. Paul's books and hoped he "changed his ways".

:rolleyes:


I hope with every bone in my body that your attitude is a minority in this movement, if it isn't this movement will get no farther than Goldwater's did.

[dannno]

I believe he'll say he's on our side. There's a huge difference.

Wait a minute, this guy was actively getting others to support HR1207.. let's not be hasty, though you do have a point..

The C4L has mechanisms in place to hold these people accountable. I don't think they necessarily have a bad strategy going here, it's not the only strategy they can use, but if the other option is "do nothing cause our state sucks, no liberty candidates", then why not try another approach?

I'm one of the biggest 'conspiracy theorists' here supposedly, yet I know that most politicians have a good mix of well-intentions along with self-preservation of getting re-elected. If they don't have the self-preservation thing going, then it makes it difficult to get re-election funds.. hence special interests.. but in this case we ARE the special interest, and that's NOT a bad thing..the difference is that we are a principled special interest with the best interest of the country being the interest. Other special interests hold their elected officials accountable, so is C4L.

If this guy is well-intentioned, which I am getting signals that he is, if he can continue to switch to these new principles then we have a winner on our hands, and it didn't cost us anything cause the funds came from somewhere else. If this guy changes colors, we win because we have a contract (the questionnaire) that shows he didn't do what he told us he would.

[JK/SEA]

I don't hear Adam Kokesh compromising his beliefs for a few NECON votes.

That letter smells of sell out.

You guys want to compromise your beliefs and principals to get NEOCON war mongers in the tent? go for it, and good luck.

[LittleLightShining]

The e-mail from the CO activist makes a point that has not been made during this controversy. There are personal relationships involved here. Not in a bad way. People getting to know other people, people actually having conversations with candidates. It makes a big difference when you get to know people at a personal level.

For instance, an example that does not apply to the specific CO case:

Candidate A puts up a website with issues. You agree 90%.

Candidate B puts up a website with issues. You agree 80%.

You contact both candidates to find out more. Candidate A does not respond. Their campaign does not respond. Candidate B's campaign responds, and then puts you in contact with Candidate B. You find Candidate B more than willing to discuss issues, and they are open to looking at things in a different light. They start to publicly address your issues. Still zero response from Candidate A. Which candidate do you support?

In the specific CO case, it looks like Buck is the better of the three GOP Primary candidates on the issues, and he is talking to grassroots activists. It is not surprising that they are supporting Buck over the others. They are in CO, so they have a big interest in having some (any) choice on election day.

Interestingly, when I spoke with Eric Stall 2 days ago, the kid at HQ who is working on the survey project, I asked him if it didn't make more sense to give the survey to the state coordinator so the local people could make personal contact with each candidate. He agreed that it did make sense. I used the guy running against Pat Leahy, Len Britton, as an example. I've spoken at length with both this guy and his campaign manager and despite the rhetoric on his website right now, Len is committed to completely pulling out of Afghanistan, to drastically reducing the amount of bases and soldiers we have stationed around the world. We talked about Letter of Marque and Reprisal (which he had never heard of but liked immediately), he understands our interventionism is bankrupting us, has said we shouldn't be policing the world (all things that aren't gonna win him brownie points with the rank and file GOP but which scream principle to me)... If we had this survey to approach Britton, Leahy and the Dem primary challenger, Freilich, with we could definitely build a more solid relationship between VT C4L and Britton-- but despite that the bridge is being built and I've been asked to help on his campaign in a capacity I wish I could share but cannot.

I really don't see how circumventing the states when sending out these surveys truly helps the people on the ground build a relationship based on anything but pain or pleasure. Maybe I'm naive, but it seems to me like it ought to be based on right or wrong.

And based on the rhetoric coming from Bonnie in Colorado and Steven V in NY it's more than apparent that they've decided where their loyalties lie-- not with the principles of the organization but with the idea of wielding power and influence (and money, let's not forget money-- even though Bonnie, Steven and all the other state coordinators aren't being compensated. Sad.).

[nobody's_hero]

Are you serious? A guy with a teetotaler history such as Buck is going to completely change his ways after a weekend of light reading? And if he does that means we should support him? If he changes it's for political expediency, not for principles. If he wants to make a TRUE change on principles, then he should join the movement on a grassroots level and throw his support to someone who has truly held the principles of liberty and lived them. If you sacrifice your principles for the lesser of two evils, there was no point in Dr. Paul's campaign or the movement to begin with. We should have all just supported McCain and sent him a copy of Dr. Paul's books and hoped he "changed his ways".

:rolleyes:


I hope with every bone in my body that your attitude is a minority in this movement, if it isn't this movement will get no farther than Goldwater's did.

Ron Paul converted me in less time than it takes to hold a Republican debate in South Carolina.

If you don't think folks can be educated, think again.

Now, I'm NOT saying that we should support Ken Buck at the expense of principle, but if he is willing to learn, we must be willing to teach. If he turns out to be unwilling to learn, than we have lost little more than the effort it takes to teach. Ron Paul has been educating folks for decades and it is just now paying off. If he instead had decided to never come within smelling-distance of neocons, we wouldn't be making any headway at all.

I think Danno has a workable strategy: Educate. Completely isolating ourselves the neoconservatives and liberals will not help to increase our numbers, but that is not to say that we should fall in lock-step behind them when they are wrong on certain issues.

[angelatc]

Wait a minute, this guy was actively getting others to support HR1207.. let's not be hasty, though you do have a point..

The C4L has mechanisms in place to hold these people accountable..

What makes you think that?

[dannno]

Are you serious? A guy with a teetotaler history such as Buck is going to completely change his ways after a weekend of light reading? And if he does that means we should support him? If he changes it's for political expediency, not for principles.

Are you telling me that A Foreign Policy of Freedom isn't a principled? That is the logic you are applying with that statement, might want to re-word ;)

Are you telling me that you read the OP and you understand that this guy has done a 180 on the Federal Reserve, declaration of wars by congress AND nation building in the last several months, and has shown that he believes by campaigning other reps to join him in the fight for 1207?!




If he wants to make a TRUE change on principles, then he should join the movement on a grassroots level and throw his support to someone who has truly held the principles of liberty and lived them. If you sacrifice your principles for the lesser of two evils, there was no point in Dr. Paul's campaign or the movement to begin with.

If he changes his principles, which he is currently in the process of doing, then he is BY FAR THE BEST OPTION WE HAVE FOR GETTING A PRINCIPLED LIBERTY CANDIDATE ELECTED in that district. Who is this MAGICAL liberty candidate who wants to join the grassroots, who has been a Republican for years and wants to win this race? Do YOU want to do it?




We should have all just supported McCain and sent him a copy of Dr. Paul's books and hoped he "changed his ways".

:rolleyes:

McCain was OPPOSITE of Ron Paul on EVERYTHING. Have you read the 20 question survey that Buck filled out?? Buck is WITH Ron Paul on everything, including the bulk of his foreign policy, but has a slightly different attitude about who are enemy is and why. This is not because of principles, this is because of mis-education. That's why I recommended the reading.



I hope with every bone in my body that your attitude is a minority in this movement, if it isn't this movement will get no farther than Goldwater's did.

I would tend to say the opposite.

[angelatc]

Ron Paul converted me in less time than it takes to hold a Republican debate in South Carolina.

If you don't think folks can be educated, think again.

His web page speaks volumes for his education.

Endless war is the one singular issue that unites us.

[UtahApocalypse]

No what the main difference between the R3voloution and mainstream Republicans was in the last election cycle?

The War and Interventionism.

Once we compromise on that principle we are nothing more the fall in-line republicans. That is the problem it seems that many don't understand about the frustrations and upsetting against C$L over this.

[dannno]

What makes you think that?

Which part? It's all based on C4L statements, some are in this thread and the others are in the discussion on the official C4L statement (regarding holding them accountable)

[angelatc]

No what the main difference between the R3voloution and mainstream Republicans was in the last election cycle?

The War and Interventionism.

Once we compromise on that principle we are nothing more the fall in-line republicans. That is the problem it seems that many don't understand about the frustrations and upsetting against C$L over this.

I get it loud and clear. I am convinced that out state coordinators are as upset about this as I am though, which I see as a good thing.

[__27__]

Ron Paul converted me in less time than it takes to hold a Republican debate in South Carolina.

If you don't think folks can be educated, think again.

Now, I'm NOT saying that we should support Ken Buck at the expense of principle, but if he is willing to learn, we must be willing to teach.

I think Danno has a workable strategy: Educate. Completely isolating ourselves the neoconservatives and liberals will not help to increase our numbers, but that is not to say that we should fall in lock-step behind them when they are wrong on certain issues.

Which is exactly what we did. If Buck had COMPLETELY changed his stance on intervention BEFORE the ad and THEN C4L ran the ad, COMPLETELY different story. That is NOT the case.

The case is that C4L put support behind a foreign imperialist and said "well maybe in the future he'll come around, for now just support him". B as in B, S as in S.

[angelatc]

Which part? It's all based on C4L statements, some are in this thread and the others are in the discussion on the official C4L statement (regarding holding them accountable)

OH my gosh. Were you here for the campaign? This is the same tactic. "We have a secret plan...."

What could they possibly have? Pictures of him diddling little boys or boiling kittens in oil?

Is that really the game we want to play?

[dannno]

No what the main difference between the R3voloution and mainstream Republicans was in the last election cycle?

The War and Interventionism.

Once we compromise on that principle we are nothing more the fall in-line republicans. That is the problem it seems that many don't understand about the frustrations and upsetting against C$L over this.

Ya, and this guy has changed his mind about declarations of war by congress and nation building. He wants to go after this perceived enemy because he doesn't know anything about them because he has been told lies for years. A little education and he's there. He's already anti-Fed and everything.

The neocon agenda cannot go through without nation building. If they can't have nation building, they aren't going to fight the wars, so they won't tell the lies to start them.

[dannno]

OH my gosh. Were you here for the campaign? This is the same tactic. "We have a secret plan...."

What could they possibly have? Pictures of him diddling little boys or boiling kittens in oil?

Is that really the game we want to play?

Secret plan for what?

I made like 3 or 4 statements in that post I'm still not sure what you're talking about.. how will they hold them accountable? Based on their voting record. The questionnaire is really an agreement. They will stop supporting him if he goes back on any of those things.. but they never supported him financially to begin with, it's the other people who were going through the C4L, so they are only supporting him in name. Who cares if they drop him? If they start using our C4L funds for this guy without some votes against the wars, then I'll be upset, but with the voting record and the momentum this guy has, I don't have a huge problem putting the name of the organization behind him on this little experiment they are doing.

They are trying to make the C4L an attractive source of revenue for politicians to get them to become more conservative and liberty-minded.

One of the questions is about leaving the UN, and another about opposing the NAU. There are a few good ones in there, to be honest.

[__27__]

Are you telling me that A Foreign Policy of Freedom isn't a principled? That is the logic you are applying with that statement, might want to re-word ;)

Care to show where I said A Foreign Policy of Freedom is not principled? I said very clearly, if one lives a long life of imperialism and authoritarianism demonstrating where their principles lie over and over and over and over and over, that after he simply reads a book and says "Hey guys, I'm on your side totally, give me your money and support" that we should now magically believe that his principles have changed and that he deserves our support? Bullfuckingshit. If his principles really did change, I'm happy. If his principles really did change then he would be more interested in seeing a true liberty candidate who has lived the principles of liberty get the seat, not in simply seeing HIMSELF in the seat.



Are you telling me that you read the OP and you understand that this guy has done a 180 on the Federal Reserve, declaration of wars by congress AND nation building in the last several months, and has shown that he believes by campaigning other reps to join him in the fight for 1207?!


Yes, I'm telling you I read the OP and can clearly see that a hardcore statist and imperialist who has a LONG history of holding statist and imperialist principles has SAID that he has changed. Again, good for him if he has. If he truly had he would be interested in getting a liberty candidate into the seat he is vying for, rather than simply giving lip service to some principles so he can get more money and support to get HIMSELF in the seat.



If he changes his principles, which he is currently in the process of doing, then he is BY FAR THE BEST OPTION WE HAVE FOR GETTING A PRINCIPLED LIBERTY CANDIDATE ELECTED in that district. Who is this MAGICAL liberty candidate who wants to join the grassroots, who has been a Republican for years and wants to win this race? Do YOU want to do it?


If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all be fat and happy. You're playing the same game that every meaningful liberty movement in this country has ever done, compromise compromise compromise. In a very short time we're back in the exact spot we started.



McCain was OPPOSITE of Ron Paul on EVERYTHING. Have you read the 20 question survey that Buck filled out?? Buck is WITH Ron Paul on everything, including the bulk of his foreign policy, but has a slightly different attitude about who are enemy is and why. This is not because of principles, this is because of mis-education. That's why I recommended the reading.


Oh cool, I must have missed that. Buck lived a long life of statism and imperialism, but he filled out a survey with some "Y's" on it the other day, so now he's "magically" a liberty candidate. Compromise compromise compromise.



I would tend to say the opposite.

As did Goldwater's supporters.

[dannno]

Yes, I'm telling you I read the OP and can clearly see that a hardcore statist and imperialist who has a LONG history of holding statist and imperialist principles has SAID that he has changed. Again, good for him if he has. .

No, that's where you're mistaken, he didn't just say that he changed, his actions in congress have shown that he has changed his position on the Fed and other issues.

He got 19 out of 20 questions on the quiz right, have you read through that quiz? WE didn't give him any money, it was a small group of activists in CO. If he sticks to following the agreement (the questionnaire) and is willing to continue to talk about a more liberty minded foreign policy, is already against nation building, then we should be stoked this guy got some extra money, cause there are some huge issues he's agreeing to on that questionnaire and he's heading in the right direction.

[__27__]

No, that's where you're mistaken, he didn't just say that he changed, his actions in congress have shown that he has changed his position on the Fed and other issues.

He got 19 out of 20 questions on the quiz right, have you read through that quiz? WE didn't give him any money, it was a small group of activists in CO. If he sticks to following the agreement (the questionnaire) and is willing to continue to talk about a more liberty minded foreign policy, is already against nation building, then we should be stoked this guy got some extra money, cause there are some huge issues he's agreeing to on that questionnaire and he's heading in the right direction.

Got it. Compromise compromise compromise. Getting anyone in regardless of their past is more important than getting real liberty candidates in.

[dannno]

Got it. Compromise compromise compromise. Getting anyone in regardless of their past is more important than getting real liberty candidates in.

Who is this real liberty candidate you keep speaking of?

[newbitech]

Who is this real liberty candidate you keep speaking of?


Not to jump in the middle of the convo, just a point of interest.

Why wouldn't the real liberty candidate be the state coordinator or one of the regional or district coordinators?

This is really how I thought C4L was going to be. To train these natural liberty loving leaders on how to win elections that way we can raise up candidates from the inside.

What is looking like is going on is that these natural leaders that rise up are being BLOCKED from being candidates in favor up being donation collectors and basically cheerleaders and "educators". I just don't get why we need to find people outside the movement.

I thought we were supposed to be raising homegrown leaders. Seems the natural answer to the question is, the leaders in the local C4L.

[angelatc]

Secret plan for what?

I made like 3 or 4 statements in that post I'm still not sure what you're talking about.. how will they hold them accountable? Based on their voting record. The questionnaire is really an agreement. They will stop supporting him if he goes back on any of those things.. but they never supported him financially to begin with, it's the other people who were going through the C4L, so they are only supporting him in name. Who cares if they drop him? If they start using our C4L funds for this guy without some votes against the wars, then I'll be upset, but with the voting record and the momentum this guy has, I don't have a huge problem putting the name of the organization behind him on this little experiment they are doing.

They are trying to make the C4L an attractive source of revenue for politicians to get them to become more conservative and liberty-minded.

One of the questions is about leaving the UN, and another about opposing the NAU. There are a few good ones in there, to be honest.

You don't have a problem with the CFL being involved in political money laundering?

Ask yourself this: how did an excited group of newbies find out about a survey that the state coordinators knew nothing about, and how did they know that Buck returned it? How were they able to garner so much excitement and cash over that otherwise relatively mundane event?

[angelatc]

Who is this real liberty candidate you keep speaking of?

There is no liberty candidate in this race, so the CFL has no business being involved in the race.

[MsDoodahs]

You don't have a problem with the CFL being involved in political money laundering?

I have a problem with CFL allowing even a WHIFF of such a hugely inappropriate activity near the liberty movement.


Ask yourself this: how did an excited group of newbies find out about a survey that the state coordinators knew nothing about, and how did they know that Buck returned it? How were they able to garner so much excitement and cash over that otherwise relatively mundane event?

I can't believe it.

I don't believe it.

[devil21]

FWIW, I don't think the CFL has sold out, at least in the classic sense. What we're seeing is the hashing out of the idealogical debate between the purists and the pragmatists in this movement. Obviously CFL is taking the pragmatist approach, as they wish to be a "relevent" organization in the political field and probably feel as if the conversion angle (through money) is the best use of their resources. Many (most?) supporters however are purists. I am a purist.

I think this crossroads was inevitable for a burgoning political movement. We may be best suited to just let the CFL do what it's going to do and keep our own personal activism activities to ourselves. I don't think CFL is selling out. Their goals as an organization are just turning out to be a bit different than the supporter's goals.